Alex Cora-- what do we have here? Perhaps the best manager in baseball.

brandonchristensen

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Pardon the bump…. I couldn’t watch or follow the game today (9/25). I just read the last page in the game thread and saw lots of anger directed at Cora.
Asking what he did that cost them today?
Going to Darwinzon Hernandez as the first out of the pen when Houck had two outs and walked his final two. You need someone who can reliably throw strikes, and he walks the first batter and then gives up a grand slam. It was obvious it would happen when it did.

Houck had a weird outing, his second inning was super strong until he lost it...why do you go to DH in that situation? Josh Taylor is apparently out so he wasn't an option, but you have Ottavino and Richards.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Why Darwinzon instead of Austin Davis? Davis walks fewer batters and doesn’t give up as many homers. It often feels hard to understand the hierarchy of the bullpen; that was as pivotal of a situation as there is. I personally would have brought in my best guy there (Ottavino, I guess).
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Makes sense. I get that Cora wants to see if Darwinzon’s recent strike-throwing ability since his return is for real…. But…. Bad spot to test it.
 

curly2

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Before yesterday, since his return, Hernandez had pitched 5.1 innings wits 4 BB and 1 HBP. He's been just as wild as he's always been since he came up in 2019.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Once again, the lack of urgency in our brain trust bites us in the ass. Cora was more interested in conducting an experiment to see whether Hernandez can be trusted in a clutch situation than in winning the ballgame. Maybe this information will be valuable in October, but it won't be if we don't make the post season or welose the one game playoff because we burned up our best pitchers just to make it into that game.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Once again, the lack of urgency in our brain trust bites us in the ass. Cora was more interested in conducting an experiment to see whether Hernandez can be trusted in a clutch situation than in winning the ballgame. Maybe this information will be valuable in October, but it won't be if we don't make the post season or welose the one game playoff because we burned up our best pitchers just to make it into that game.
Seems obvious to me that Cora's trust hierarchy for his lefty bullpen options are Taylor, Hernandez, Davis, Perez. Taylor was unavailable with a bad back, so he went to Hernandez to get Rizzo. If Houck hadn't walked two straight guys prior to that, Hernandez wouldn't have been in the game at all. Where's the vitriol for Houck's performance (I admit I have not waded into the game thread)?
 

curly2

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I have vitriol for Houck. He kept trying to make perfect pitches instead of going after hitters. He walked four guys, and of those 16 balls, 14 were balls from the instant they left his hand. He made two close pitches, the 1-2 to Gardner and the 2-2 to Judge. None of the others were close.

But it was still a bad decision by Cora. Hernandez may be the top available lefty on his hierarchy when Taylor is unavailable, but you don't HAVE to go lefty on lefty, especially when Rizzo's numbers are much better against lefties this year. Richards has been really good in relief. I think he would have been a better option.
 
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johnnyfromspain

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We all have 20/20 vision once the game has ended. What is difficult is making the decisions with the game on the line. Do Cora´s decisions look bad now? Of course they do. That is because the result is not what we expected/desired. But truthfully, do we have a more talented LHP in the bullpen than Darwinzon? I fear we do not. You have to go with what you have.

In my humble opinion, what happened yesterday is that we have very young and inexperienced talented pitchers in the bullpen. We are all pointing our fingers at Darwinzon, but the real problem was Houck. In the seventh inning we was incapable of throwing a FB for a strike. This is very common with young pitchers, nothing to be worried about. He simply lost his slot. In truth, he was extremely fortunate to get out of that inning unscathed. I was quite surprised that he came out again for the 8th inning. I believe that is on the coaching staff. They have to be able to "read between the lines" and know when a pitcher needs to be replaced before it is too late. And yesterday they were late.

Then again, I would never have put Brasier on the mound for the 8th. Despite that, he pitched extremely well in the 9th. Would he have been as effective if he had stepped on the rubber on the 8th? We will never know.

In addition, what did Cora say to Darwinzon in his visit to the mound. I can only guess he said something like, "Don't shoot your yourself in the foot. Throw a f....ing strike and get ahead". At least that's what it seems from what happened later. What would have happened if instead he had said: "Ok, now Stanton is waiting for a 1st pitch FB down the middle. F...k it, throw him a slider for a strike. He'll swing right through it. And after that, putting in a rocking chair: up, down, in, out, speed him up, slow him down......You are in charge! You are the boss!". Believe me, I have had both types of conversations with pitchers in my career as a pitching coach and head coach, so has every other manager in baseball.

What we do know is that we have very talented, young pitchers who will only get better with the proper seasoning.
Most importantly, I am much more optimistic with the future of the Red Sox now than a few weeks ago, let alone in February.
 

Rovin Romine

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We all have 20/20 vision once the game has ended. What is difficult is making the decisions with the game on the line.
Cora manages one of the most high profile and well funded teams in the sport, with perhaps no limit to what analytical resources can be brought to bear.

He's paid a millionare's wage.

I expect him to have thought of, and planned out, various scenarios well ahead of the point where the game is 'on the line.'

That is, literally, his job. He has the resources. He has the time.
 
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joe dokes

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Cora is manages one of the most high profile and well funded teams in the sport, with perhaps no limit to what analytical resources can be brought to bear.

He's paid a millionare's wage.

I expect him to have thought of, and planned out, various scenarios well ahead of the point where the game is 'on the line.'

That is, literally, his job. He has the resources. He has the time.
If only he had realized that Houck was going to suck, he could have had him murdered in the dugout before he went out there and sucked, like a real manager would have done.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The simple problem is a relatively mediocre pitching staff filled with similar pitchers. He’s got a lot of inconsistent pitchers who don’t throw strikes. We can quibble over Hernandez or Davis, Ottavino or Houck, etc etc but good luck knowing which one will perform that day. Too many short starts forces the team to try to piece together 3+ innnings which is hard to do with Whitlock out and Barnes Barnes-ing. I think they prob wanted Houck to close it out last night but he wasn’t up to the challenge.
 

Rovin Romine

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If only he had realized that Houck was going to suck, he could have had him murdered in the dugout before he went out there and sucked, like a real manager would have done.
Or just pitched Richards.

But let's tease this out.

Are you really arguing Cora does not have the time or resources to run batter v. hitter scenarios? Or that he ought to be sorta-kinda-guessing re: his in-game decisions?
 

curly2

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If only he had realized that Houck was going to suck, he could have had him murdered in the dugout before he went out there and sucked, like a real manager would have done.
That's a highly constructive post.

With the three-batter rule, you really have to be confident in Hernandez's ability to get Rizzo. With his control issues, it was a very risky play. Once he hit him (on what would have been ball four), Stanton was licking his chops to get up there.

Maybe Rizzo woulds have hit a three-run homer off Richards, but putting Hernandez into the biggest pressure situation in his career seemed like a recipe for trouble.

Cora was hamstrung by Taylor's bad back and Barnes' struggles -- if they had an effective Barnes now, Ottavino probably comes in to face Judge in the eighth knowing Barnes has the ninths -- but that doesn't mean Hernandez was the right call, or that Cora's moves can't be questioned.
 

scottyno

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Hernandez has been better against righties than lefties this year, not sure why everyone is acting like he's a lefty specialist.

In his career he's better vs lefties but still not terrible vs righties
 

jon abbey

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Hernandez has been better against righties than lefties this year, not sure why everyone is acting like he's a lefty specialist.

In his career he's better vs lefties but still not terrible vs righties
From the other perspective, Stanton has always killed lefties, .615 career SLG (.521 against RHP).
 

mfried

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The simple problem is a relatively mediocre pitching staff filled with similar pitchers. He’s got a lot of inconsistent pitchers who don’t throw strikes. We can quibble over Hernandez or Davis, Ottavino or Houck, etc etc but good luck knowing which one will perform that day. Too many short starts forces the team to try to piece together 3+ innnings which is hard to do with Whitlock out and Barnes Barnes-ing. I think they prob wanted Houck to close it out last night but he wasn’t up to the challenge.
I may be the only one nutty enough to think it, but With 2 outs I would have left Houck in - a risk vs. Rizzo but a good gamble vs. Stanton. A clean 9th for Richards.
 

joe dokes

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Or just pitched Richards.

But let's tease this out.

Are you really arguing Cora does not have the time or resources to run batter v. hitter scenarios? Or that he ought to be sorta-kinda-guessing re: his in-game decisions?
Youre right. While not cheating Cora just flips coins as to which pitcher to bring in.

Or maybe, like he said after the game, he was looking at Hernandez's success with RHBs in case he had to face one. One could call that "running a scenario")
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I may be the only one nutty enough to think it, but With 2 outs I would have left Houck in - a risk vs. Rizzo but a good gamble vs. Stanton. A clean 9th for Richards.
They do seem really quick to pull Houck and Whitlock. These guys do need to figure out how to work through these issues, and doing it in big games is the best way to figure it out. Granted if Houck gave up the granny, I’m sure Cora would get killed for that.
 

Rovin Romine

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Youre right. While not cheating Cora just flips coins as to which pitcher to bring in.

Or maybe, like he said after the game, he was looking at Hernandez's success with RHBs in case he had to face one. One could call that "running a scenario")
What is with the bad faith arguments on this board?

Person A - "It's hard to make decisions in game."
Person B - "That's the job of a ML manager."
Person You - "Unrelated Blather"
 

scottyno

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What is with the bad faith arguments on this board?

Person A - "It's hard to make decisions in game."
Person B - "That's the job of a ML manager."
Person You - "Unrelated Blather"
Is the bad faith argument the one you made where you implied that you don't think Cora did consider different scenarios ahead of time when he obviously did or the one where in your mind he fucked up horribly because he made a decision that didn't work out that you disagree with?
 

Rovin Romine

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Is the bad faith argument the one you made where you implied that you don't think Cora did consider different scenarios ahead of time when he obviously did or the one where in your mind he fucked up horribly because he made a decision that didn't work out that you disagree with?
I pointed out that Cora has the resources to consider various in game scenarios before they happen.

What's your problem?
 

BroodsSexton

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I pointed out that Cora has the resources to consider various in game scenarios before they happen.

What's your problem?
Wow. I’ve heard him called a genius, but not a pre-cog. Nobody has said he doesn’t have resources or analytics at his disposal. So put that strawman to rest.

It’s easy to say “He should have just pitched Richards,” because that can never be tested counterfactually. But that isn’t really an argument. Why should he have pitched Richards instead of Hernandez?
 

Rovin Romine

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Wow. I’ve heard him called a genius, but not a pre-cog. Nobody has said he doesn’t have resources or analytics at his disposal. So put that strawman to rest.

It’s easy to say “He should have just pitched Richards,” because that can never be tested counterfactually. But that isn’t really an argument. Why should he have pitched Richards instead of Hernandez?
Because Hernandez has an atrocious walk rate?
 

scottyno

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I pointed out that Cora has the resources to consider various in game scenarios before they happen.

What's your problem?
Do you think he considered those scenarios then or are you just unhappy that he didn't agree with what you seem to think was the obvious move
 

Rovin Romine

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Do you think he considered those scenarios then or are you just unhappy that he didn't agree with what you seem to think was the obvious move
No, Scotty. You have won. There's no need to keep trying to distort what I'm saying. Your view has prevailed!!!!!

I will keep saying it as often as you need to hear it.
 

BroodsSexton

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No really, you win. You can use his overall numbers instead of his relief numbers, which is just emblematic of the whole discussion. Just know - you have won.
Richards WHIP in last 7 games: 1.50.
Hernandez in last 7 games (after last night): 1.20

When was Richards’s last start?
 

Rovin Romine

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Richards WHIP in last 7 games: 1.50.
Hernandez in last 7 games (after last night): 1.20

When was Richards’s last start?
Dude, you have won. Enjoy it. You have beaten the opposition.

(I mean, I know you didn't actually just use the splits, because that might have undercut your argument. And you have won your argument!)
 

BroodsSexton

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Dude, you have won. Enjoy it. You have beaten the opposition.

(I mean, I know you didn't actually just use the splits, because that might have undercut your argument. And you have won your argument!)
Your passive aggressive schtick sucks, as does your constant goalpost shifting without actually engaging in a discussion. It’s sad, really.
 

BroodsSexton

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Richards just walked the first two batters of the eighth inning after getting a lead, then gave up a hard hit ball to the right field wall. Now out of the game. Only reason the game isn’t tied is the caught stealing.
 
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canderson

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It’s apparently not a challengable call but I agree with you. He’s got to go out there and ask for help, ask for a review, SOMETHING.
Yeah, it’s not a challenge but he just sat chewing gum. Yell, fight for your guys, SOMETHING. You’re in the midst of getting swept by your rival at home and falling close to out of the playoffs, you need some fire there. Don’t get tossed, but argue. Stand up. Anything.
 

soxhop411

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Game 1 of the NYY series:
our lineup went 7/32 with 9 K's and 7 LOB and 1 for 5 with RISP



Game 2:
Lineup went 7/34
7 Lob and 1/3 with RISP


Stats so far in tonights game


11/32, 9 K's 2-10 with RISP

when the meat of your lineup cant get it done, not sure what Cora can do....
 

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Game 1 of the NYY series:
our lineup went 7/32 with 9 K's and 7 LOB and 1 for 5 with RISP



Game 2:
Lineup went 7/34
7 Lob and 1/3 with RISP


Stats so far in tonights game


11/32, 9 K's 2-10 with RISP

when the meat of your lineup cant get it done, not sure what Cora can do....
Change the lineup around?
 

DeadlySplitter

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They've gone like .300 (9-21 or so?) against winning teams the last 30 games, right? At .300 bad, that's mostly the roster having big flaws, not on the manager.

Cora isn't getting fired after one year, no matter how this next week goes.

The weird thing about this season is they looked like a top team for 100 (ONE HUNDRED) games. All the suck for what we knew deep down was a borderline playoff team has been concentrated at the end. Sometimes baseball does that.
 

canderson

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It's absolutely theater if the call cannot be reviewed or overturned. What's the point?
Energy? Care? Belief? If bad things happen to me, I try to fight back. It’s an issue I think Cora needs to work on - it’s not a fatal flaw but it looks large in a moment you’re getting embarrassed imo. And this was an embarrassing weekend, no doubt. Inexcusable.
 

soxhop411

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final offensive stats for the below three
Bogaerts 1-12
JDM 2-9
Verdugo- 2-8

and thats just those three... You want to fault someone for this sweep? its fully on the offense
 

curly2

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It is on the offense, but part of that is on the manager.

Cora literally announced to the rest of the baseball world that he told his guys to be aggressive and to jump on first pitches. It took the league a while to catch on, but they figured it out around the break -- the Red Sox will chase A LOT of bad pitches as part of Cora's aggressive approach. The Red Sox never adjusted. They've chased way too much crap and made for a ton of easy outs, either by striking out on pitches not even close to the zone -- like the three in a row vs. Holmes -- or making first pitch outs on pitches they should take for ball 1.

Some of that is on the hitters, but some of it is on Cora. He needed to get it through to them. Teams also figured out the Red Sox bullpen is made up of a bunch of nibblers trying to make the perfect pitch (except for Whitlock). Opposing hitters stopped chasing against the Sox relievers.

We saw the results this weekend.
 

Max Power

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Yeah, it’s not a challenge but he just sat chewing gum. Yell, fight for your guys, SOMETHING. You’re in the midst of getting swept by your rival at home and falling close to out of the playoffs, you need some fire there. Don’t get tossed, but argue. Stand up. Anything.
Did he even see what happened? In real time it looked like a regular old dropped foul tip. Vazquez didn't even complain. Only after replays did it become obvious to the viewers at home, but Cora isn't watching the TV feed.
 

chawson

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Did he even see what happened? In real time it looked like a regular old dropped foul tip. Vazquez didn't even complain. Only after replays did it become obvious to the viewers at home, but Cora isn't watching the TV feed.
It was an egregiously bad call, and a crucial situation. Made me want to chew my arms off. I wonder if the fact that it was Joe West — who everyone on the field has to know is on a farewell tour — had to do with it. A lesser-profile ump and you’d let him have it.

Judge struck out. Give Stanton a free pass there and there’s a good chance Ottavino gets Gallo and we’re out of it. Just an absurdly bad call for Joe West to go out on.