2022 SoSH HOF Ballot

OCD SS

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The BBWA ballots for the HOF are due postmarked on December 31, and with not much else to talk about, I thought it would be worth having SoSHers post their own ballots. I was going to list this as a poll, but the board software doesn't accommodate that many options in a single poll, so just post your ballot here by listing who you would vote for. The rules are the same as the BBWA; vote for up to 10 players by listing the in your post. Feel free to add your own rationale.

Here is a link to the 2022 ballot.
 

Seels

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SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
4,948
NH
I won't shed a tear when Bonds is sitting on the outside. People might say it delegitimizes the hall but the hall lost the last shred of legitimacy it had when Baines was put in.

Ortiz - yes cause I'm biased. idc.
Rolen - he deserves it.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2021
1,683
San Diego
  1. Barry Bonds
  2. Roger Clemens
  3. Andruw Jones
  4. David Ortiz
  5. Scott Rolen
  6. Curt Schilling
  7. Sammy Sosa
  8. Alex Rodriguez
  9. Manny Ramirez
  10. Todd Helton
 

RG33

Certain Class of Poster
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
7,199
CA
1. Barry Bonds — He was a Hall of Famer before 1999
2. Roger Clemens — He was a Hall of Famer before 1996
3. Andruw Jones — Elite 8 year run, 10-time GG and arguably a top 10 OF all-time, 5-time All Star
4. David Ortiz — 541 HR, 1768 RBI, .931 OPS, 5 top 5 MVP finishes, 10-time All star, incomparable postseason record

NOT on my ballot:

Manny Ramirez — I would not vote him in due to my perceived impact of PEDs on his career numbers
Sammy Sosa — I would not vote him in due to my perceived impact of PEDs on his career numbers
Gary Sheffield — I would note vote him in due to my perceived impact of PEDs on his career numbers

Scott Rolen, Billy Wagner, Todd Helton — very close, but Hall of very, very good to me.

The only other person on the list I would consider would be G38 — and his regular season career was not good enough to warrant over-looking his detestable post-career histrionics in my opinion.
 

Zedia

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SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
6,988
Pasadena, CA
Yes, obviously:
Bonds
Clemens
Arod

More obvious than I thought at first:
Ortiz
Manny
Rolen

I guess?:
Jeff Kent - People don’t seem to like Jeff Kent, but that offense for your every day 2B seems pretty special.
Andruw Jones - if his defense was that great.
Todd Helton - I don’t know how to account for 1b sluggers, especially if they play in Colorado.

Schilling absolutely had a HOF career, but I’m not voting for him.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
72,429
1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Manny
4. Ortiz
5. Arod
6. A. Jones
7. Kent
8. Rollins
9. Wagner
10. Papelbon
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,271
AZ
Didn't G38 ask to be removed from the ballot? Or is that not actually a thing that you can do and instead he was just saying that as a way of setting himself up for disappointment?
 

djbayko

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Jul 18, 2005
25,894
Los Angeles, CA
I might come back and add more later when I have time. For now, I'm putting in this placeholder which includes Papi + the PED/suspected PED guys who should already be in.

Bonds
Clemens
Ortiz
Manny
A-Rod
Sosa
 

OCD SS

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My ballot is as follows:
  • Barry Bonds
  • Roger Clemens
  • ARod
I'm ambivalent about the steroid guys, but the most convincing argument I've heard for these guys comes from Jay Jaffe (paraphrasing): 'If the Bud Selig, who presided over the who mess of the Steroid Era, and was guilty of collusion to boot, can skip past the character clause and into the HOF, then there's no real reason to keep these guys out on the same basis.'
  • Todd Helton
They play baseball in Colorado, and while it may be a little different, it's up to the writers to deal with it, rather than just disqualifying anyone from the franchise in an act of intellectual laziness. Every hitter playing half their games in Coors hasn't put up HOF numbers.
  • David Ortiz
I assume a no brainer in these parts, but I'll add that DH is also a position. Big Papi hit better dealing with the PH penalty ascribed to DHs, meaning he truly owned this as a position in my mind & WAR's positional adjustment doesn't really account for this... and all anyone ever found was a lot of rice & beans.
  • Scott Rolen
3Bmen are criminally under represented in the hall, and even if he didn't mash HRs, his defense coupled with overall offense makes up for it. He looks like he fits nicely between Chipper Jones and the eventual election of Beltre.
  • Billy Wagner
He's the Tim Raines of relievers: having a hard time gaining support for not measuring up to literally the best talent ever who did the same thing. That doesn't mean he doesn't belong in the Hall, and the Hall (via the voters) are going to have to reckon with the shift to relievers taking over more of the work load from starters across the game. Eventually we're going to have the 'can an opener' make the HOF arguments...
  • Manny Ramirez
  • Gary Sheffield
I'm not enthusiasatic about either of these guys, and they're right on the edge of HoVG and HOF for me, between the offensive era they played in and Manny's positive test. I reserve the right to come back and edit this before New Year's on these guys...
 

Plantiers Wart

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Oct 16, 2002
4,092
west hartford
1. Bonds - in before he started juicing
2. Clemens - same
3. ARod - same
4. Ortiz -
5. Manny - in before started juicing
6. Rolen
7. Schilling - in before he outed self as asshole
8. Jones - great peak, great D, big part of “dynasty” of great Braves run
9. Kent - the numbers are just so good. Look at them again.
Sosa is a tough call. Can’t justify if McGwire was kept out. Sheffield, Helton, Wagner just never struck me as hell of famers when watching them play.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,405
I've grown to hate this whole conversation, but...

Bonds
Clemens
Jones
Ortiz
Ramirez
Rodriguez
Rolen
Schilling
Sheffield
Sosa

I could probably justify votes for a few more, too, but the rest will just have to wait for the new VC.
 

mikeford

woolwich!
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2006
29,517
St John's, NL
1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Ortiz
4. Manny
5. Arod

Schilling gets my vote after he dies. A man as personally loathsome as him doesn't deserve the satisfaction in life.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Oct 23, 2001
10,229
Todd Helton
Jeff Kent
David Ortiz
Scott Rolen

Can never make up my mind about the steroid guys. Want to vote for Manny, who is one of my all time favorites, but then I'd need to vote for Arod, who is one of my least. Even if I voted for those two, I couldn't vote for Bonds or Clemens, given how central they were to the scandal.

Schilling gets my vote after he dies. A man as personally loathsome as him doesn't deserve the satisfaction in life.
Schilling was originally on my list until I read his. I could probably say the same about Bonds and Clemens.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
7,877
Boston, MA
I can support players who took steroids before there was testing or penalties, but once the rules are in place and you break them, you're out. I love Manny. He was by far my favorite position player of his era. I just wouldn't ever put his plaque in the big room at the end of the museum.

That said, I'd vote for

Clemens
Bonds
Ortiz
 

snowmanny

Member
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Dec 8, 2005
15,667
1. Bonds - in before he started juicing
2. Clemens - same
3. ARod - same
4. Ortiz -
5. Manny - in before started juicing
6. Rolen
7. Schilling - in before he outed self as asshole
8. Jones - great peak, great D, big part of “dynasty” of great Braves run
9. Kent - the numbers are just so good. Look at them again.
Sosa is a tough call. Can’t justify if McGwire was kept out. Sheffield, Helton, Wagner just never struck me as hell of famers when watching them play.
I’d vote for ARod but he admitted to using PEDs starting in 2001 so he wouldn’t have even been eligible for the HOF at that point.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=3894847
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
15,667
I meant you need ten years to qualify, so if his career had stopped after Seattle he wouldn’t have been on the ballot.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,271
AZ
Thanks. Yeah, I thought I remembered that.

Much as it pains me to think about giving him a platform or doing something that would make him happy, I think I'd be a yes on Schilling. Looking at the numbers I think he's marginal lean yes. Two factors that would make him a solid yes for me are how well he actually fielded his position and his post-season performance.

Curt the baseball player belongs in the hall for me, even if the person really doesn't.
 

JMDurron

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Jul 15, 2005
5,127
1. Barry Bonds
2. Roger Clemens
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. David Ortiz
5. Scott Rolen
6. Curt Schilling

The first 6 were the easy ones for me.

7. Manny Ramirez
8. Gary Sheffield

The next two were the grudging "well, if I'm not going to penalize for steroids beyond 'nothing but HRs' guys like Sosa or McGwire, might as well be consistent" votes.

9. Andruw Jones
10. Billy Wagner

Defense matters, and Jones was a cut above the rest while hitting well enough to be noteworthy even during that era. I'm still not sure I know what a HOF reliever looks like for the "not Mount Rushmore" types like Rivera and Hoffman, but Wagner's lengthy peak in a role that chewed up so many arms/shoulders/elbows pushed me over the edge.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
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Why Clemens but no Bonds? Genuinely curious.
It's a fair question. I think Bonds was more overt about steroids, I think Roger has done more to try to clear his reputation by doing charitable work (that could just be because I hear about it here in Boston and I don't hear about Bonds at all) and the fact that I had his poster on my wall probably enters into it a bit, too.
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
29,053
Alamogordo
Top 5 are no brainers for me:
Papi

Bonds
Clemens
A-Rod
Manny


Papi stands apart, obviously, but I just can't leave the other four off the ballot. If you're going to exclude these guys, you may as well just pretend baseball didn't happen from 1998 until 2010 or so.

My next two would be:
Rolen
Andrew Jones


Jones was a generational talent defensively, with just enough bat to put him over, while Rolen was not quite as generational defensively, but still spectacular, and his bat was solid, too. The combination for both of them gets them on my ballot. I do admit that both of these guys are a little more about the pleasure I got from watching them play than the actual numbers.

After that it gets tough, and I can absolutely see why people would stop there:
Billy Wagner: 6th all time in saves with a career ERA of 2.31 during the late 90's and 2000's is just spectacular. Obviously Mo was the greatest ever, but I don't think Wagner is as far behind as some people want to think.
Jeff Kent: Just ludicrous offensive numbers for a second baseman. Obviously the defense left something to be desired, but he wasn't a butcher out there, and the two MVP awards stand out to me.
Todd Helton: Sure, blame it on Coors Field, but he was also pretty damn good defensively as well. A .316 career batting average is just stupid good, and as far as I can tell, the only guys above him since 1980 or so are Gwynn, Boggs, and Puckett.

The only other two guys who I would have had to think about are Schilling, but I really don't want anything good to happen to him, ever, for the rest of eternity, and Sheffield, who you could probably convince me to swap out for Kent or one of the defensive guys.

Obviously, I'm a little more of a "Big Hall" fan than other here.
 

Seabass

has an efficient neck
SoSH Member
Oct 30, 2004
5,342
Brooklyn
I'm done with steroids. Dudes juiced, some people were penalized for it, some people were encouraged to do it, and the guy who was in charge when it was all going down coasted in. Selig's in, so the guys who juiced while he was looking everywhere else get in. Also, if you tested positive during the testing era, you were penalized for that. I think if you tested positive, you need to have no doubter numbers to get in.

Here's who I'd vote for:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Todd Helton
Andruw Jones
Tim Lincecum
David Ortiz
Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez
Scott Rolen
Jimmy Rollins
Gary Sheffield
Billy Wagner

Since I don't have room for these twelve, I'd pull A-Rod and Sheffield because I'm not above being petty, and they'll be around for future votes.

I don't feel the need to vote for Schilling, despite his numbers making him a lock.

I think guys with elite peaks -- Lincecum and Johan before him, should get more consideration than they're currently getting.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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Sep 10, 2017
5,959
I'm done with steroids. Dudes juiced, some people were penalized for it, some people were encouraged to do it, and the guy who was in charge when it was all going down coasted in. Selig's in, so the guys who juiced while he was looking everywhere else get in. Also, if you tested positive during the testing era, you were penalized for that. I think if you tested positive, you need to have no doubter numbers to get in.

Here's who I'd vote for:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Todd Helton
Andruw Jones
Tim Lincecum
David Ortiz
Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez
Scott Rolen
Jimmy Rollins
Gary Sheffield
Billy Wagner

Since I don't have room for these twelve, I'd pull A-Rod and Sheffield because I'm not above being petty, and they'll be around for future votes.

I don't feel the need to vote for Schilling, despite his numbers making him a lock.

I think guys with elite peaks -- Lincecum and Johan before him, should get more consideration than they're currently getting.
Hmm Lincecum is a tough one for me. He was a comet and dominant over a 4-year stretch, but ERA+ well north of 100 for that 4 years and then under 100 across 3 full seasons then 2 partial seasons. Out of baseball by age 32.

It's a no from me even as a large Hall guy, I think my minimum for a HOF pitcher is just a little north of him. Not far north mind you, as I credit dominance over a short duration a little more than pure longevity of an above average producer.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,533
Bonds
Clemens
Helton
Jones
Ortiz
Ramirez
Rodriguez
Rolen
Sheffield
Wagner

Schilling can fuck himself with a rusty swastika—I mean he can fuck himself with a piece of antique Axis World War II memorabilia.
 

Mugsy's Jock

Eli apologist
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Dec 28, 2000
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My top four players have undeniable performance. They all had the counting stats, the MVP/Cy votes, and the memorable moments. While three of them are "PED-tainted", neither Bonds nor Clemens actually tested positive and presumption of innocence, etc. And Ortiz really doesn't even deserve the "PEDs-tainted" category. While Schilling is tainted in most every other way possible, keeping him out because I find his politics and personality contemptible is a slippery slope I'd rather not ski down.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
David Ortiz

Curt Schilling

Manny and A-Rod are also undeniable in terms of their performance, however their PED involvement goes beyond taint. They broke the rules, were caught and were actually suspended. I'd let them in nonetheless, because I suspect PED use was so widespread during the Steroid Era that there are probably many more inductees similarly artificially enhanced. That sucks, so I'd also propose removing Bud Selig from the HoF because he so badly fucked up the whole thing to capitalize on an opportunistic surge in MLB popularity. [I might put McGwire here too -- Sosa strikes me as too one-dimensional a ballplayer. As far as home run hitters go, I'd take Fred McGriff and Albert Belle, for two, before admitting Sosa.]

Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez


Finally there are four guys whom I consider relatively borderline. End of the day, I'd go with:

Gary Sheffield
Andruw Jones

The last two out for me are Scott Rolen (definitely a charter member of the "Hall of Very Good") and Wagner (really just all about the counting stats).
 
Last edited:

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
Moderator
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Apr 9, 2007
17,178
Washington
PED taking, wife beating, traveling secretary abusing, quitting on team guy Manny Ramirez should have to buy a ticket to get into the Hall along with Schilling.
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
Moderator
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2007
17,178
Washington
Nah, any player good enough to do damage against the greatest, most storied franchise in MLB gets bonus points for the Hall.

Just not enough to overcome being a complete and total shitbag.

Edit: Schilling gets bonus points too. Just not enough.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,533
If we’re going to take players out of the Hall of Fame for being pieces of shit there’s going to be a lot less guys with interlocking NYs on their caps.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Why do so many people think Scott Rolen should be in the Hall of Fame? He was a very good major league player. Excellent at times. But HOF?

Career slash line: .281/.364/.490/.855, 122 ops+

Big category totals:
- 316 hr
- 1,287 rbi
- 1,211 runs

Never led the league in any major (or minor, for that matter) category. Played 17 seasons and was an all-star in 7 of them. Never on an MVP and was only top 5 in MVP voting once in his career. Was top 25 in MVP voting just 4 times. Accumulated 70.1 bWAR, which is solid. Baseball-reference HOF ink:
- Gray Ink (batting): 27 (avg HOFer 144)
- HOF monitor: 99 (avg HOFer 100)
- HOF standards: 40 (avg HOFer 50)

List of most similar batters is a list of good players, not great players. Guys like Paul O'Neill, Ellis Burks, Shawn Green, Bobby Bonilla, etc.

The biggest plus is his bWAR. 70.1 career WAR, and the average HOF 3b has 68.4 career WAR. He had a really nice long career. Was good with the bat and with the glove. But wasn't GREAT. He had one elite season (2004). A bunch of really good seasons. I mean, don't get me wrong - you could do a LOT worse than Scott Rolen at third. He was terrific. But I just don't really see the argument that he's a HOF player. I think he's in the Hall of Very Good, and that's it.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Why do so many people think Scott Rolen should be in the Hall of Fame? He was a very good major league player. Excellent at times. But HOF?

Career slash line: .281/.364/.490/.855, 122 ops+

Big category totals:
- 316 hr
- 1,287 rbi
- 1,211 runs

Never led the league in any major (or minor, for that matter) category. Played 17 seasons and was an all-star in 7 of them. Never on an MVP and was only top 5 in MVP voting once in his career. Was top 25 in MVP voting just 4 times. Accumulated 70.1 bWAR, which is solid. Baseball-reference HOF ink:
- Gray Ink (batting): 27 (avg HOFer 144)
- HOF monitor: 99 (avg HOFer 100)
- HOF standards: 40 (avg HOFer 50)

List of most similar batters is a list of good players, not great players. Guys like Paul O'Neill, Ellis Burks, Shawn Green, Bobby Bonilla, etc.

The biggest plus is his bWAR. 70.1 career WAR, and the average HOF 3b has 68.4 career WAR. He had a really nice long career. Was good with the bat and with the glove. But wasn't GREAT. He had one elite season (2004). A bunch of really good seasons. I mean, don't get me wrong - you could do a LOT worse than Scott Rolen at third. He was terrific. But I just don't really see the argument that he's a HOF player. I think he's in the Hall of Very Good, and that's it.
I think the biggest push for Rolen comes from the fact that third base is the most under-represented position in the Hall at 17 total players (and one of them is Paul Molitor who put in significantly more time at DH). Among his peers, it's probably him, David Wright, and Adrian Beltre that are even in the conversation to be inducted. And it's not like there are a ton of better 3B who've been overlooked either. Of players with at least 1500 games played, 75% of which were at 3B, he's ninth all time in OPS+. The only non-HOF ahead of him in that category are Wright (133) and Bill Madlock (123).
 

Daniel_Son

Member
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May 25, 2021
1,683
San Diego
Why do so many people think Scott Rolen should be in the Hall of Fame? He was a very good major league player. Excellent at times. But HOF?

Career slash line: .281/.364/.490/.855, 122 ops+

Big category totals:
- 316 hr
- 1,287 rbi
- 1,211 runs

Never led the league in any major (or minor, for that matter) category. Played 17 seasons and was an all-star in 7 of them. Never on an MVP and was only top 5 in MVP voting once in his career. Was top 25 in MVP voting just 4 times. Accumulated 70.1 bWAR, which is solid. Baseball-reference HOF ink:
- Gray Ink (batting): 27 (avg HOFer 144)
- HOF monitor: 99 (avg HOFer 100)
- HOF standards: 40 (avg HOFer 50)

List of most similar batters is a list of good players, not great players. Guys like Paul O'Neill, Ellis Burks, Shawn Green, Bobby Bonilla, etc.

The biggest plus is his bWAR. 70.1 career WAR, and the average HOF 3b has 68.4 career WAR. He had a really nice long career. Was good with the bat and with the glove. But wasn't GREAT. He had one elite season (2004). A bunch of really good seasons. I mean, don't get me wrong - you could do a LOT worse than Scott Rolen at third. He was terrific. But I just don't really see the argument that he's a HOF player. I think he's in the Hall of Very Good, and that's it.
I think being one of the top-10 all-time players at his position makes him a HoFer - and like RHF said above, 3b is criminally underrepresented as it is.

Semi-related side note - I took a look at JAWS rankings by position on BREF to see what the highest-ranking eligible, non-steroid omission is at each position:

1B - Todd Helton, 15th (54.2 JAWS, 61.3 WAR, 33.3 WAA)
2B - Bobby Grich - 8th (58.7 JAWS, 71 WAR, 43.5 WAA)
SS - Bill Dahlen - 11th (57.7 JAWS, 75.2 WAR, 39.2 WAA)
3B - Scott Rolen - 10th (56.9 JAWS, 70.1 WAR, 44 WAA)
C - Thurman Munson - 12th (41.5 JAWS, 46.1 WAR, 25.5 WAA)
RF - Dwight Evans - 15th (52.2 JAWS, 67.1 WAR, 33 WAA)
CF - Kenny Lofton - 10th (55.9 JAWS, 68.4 WAR, 38.4 WAA)
LF - Sherry Magee - 14th (49 JAWS, 59.4 WAR, 31.4 WAA)
SP - Jim McCormick - 16th (72.5 JAWS, 76.2 WAR, 42.8 WAA)

Relief pitching is a mess; after Eck, Mo, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Gossage, you've got:

5th - Bobby Shantz (29.8 JAWS, 34.7 WAR, 18.7 WAA)
6th - Tom Gordon (29.1 JAWS, 35 WAR, 13.6 WAA)
7th - Firpo Marberry (28.6 JAWS, 30.4WAR, 9.6 WAA)
8th - John Hiller (28.4 JAWS, 30.5 WAR, 13.7 WAA)
9th - Greg Swindell (28 JAWS, 30.5 WAR, 11.5 WAA)
10th - Ellis Kinder (26.7 JAWS, 28.9 WAR,13.9 WAA)
 

Plantiers Wart

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Oct 16, 2002
4,092
west hartford
I should have added - the numbers are just so good - FOR THE POSITION.......

Abreu is close, though. Lots of guys still on ballot who should already be in.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
I get what you guys are saying about the dearth of 3B in the HOF. But honestly... Rolen was just a very good player. Nothing wrong with that. I’d love to have him on my team. But nothing about him screams Hall of Famer to me. That there haven’t been many HOF third basemen to me simply says that there haven’t been that many HOF caliber third basemen. Not that you should take a non-HOF level player just because that position doesn’t have many in the Hall.

I mean in 17 seasons he was only ONCE in the top 10 in MVP voting. He only made 7 all star teams. Not shabby. Nothing wrong with that. But he wasn’t this amazing player that dominated the league at his position.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,405
I mean in 17 seasons he was only ONCE in the top 10 in MVP voting.
Somewhat in fairness re: this point specifically, his prime did overlap with Bonds, Pujols, both Joneses, etc. Plus the BBWAA thinks differently about the MVP these days than they did when they awarded it to the Ryan Howards of the world.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Jan 13, 2021
11,920
Agree on Rolen, his resume seems a little short. The guy who seems to not get enough respect here IMO is Sheffield. 500+ HR, 2700 hits, 292 career avg….his most similar players are Chipper Jones, Mel Ott, and Reggie Jackson. His #s scream slam dunk HOFer.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
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Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Why aren’t people factoring in defense more in these recent posts?

Rolen was a great defensive 3B, 20 career defensive bWAR.

Sheffield was one of my favorite hitters ever but an awful defender, negative 27 career defensive bWAR.