It will/should depend on matchups. Last night Smart was arguably our best player but with Trae out there our only reasonable matchup is with Schroder so Ime didn’t have much choice. I’m not sure any backcourt pairing works when Jaylen is turning the ball over every possession so yeah +/- whatever. Not much Ime could do here.Cs I guess being told to go to the rim or shoot 3Ps. But as Scal noted, they have problems gking to the rim against shot-blockers, which happened last night.
Hopefully Ime is cured of the MS-DS pairing. But Ime has to figure out who the 5th guy is going to be in the closing lineup. It seems that Ime is unwilling to play Horford there; DS won't work with MS on the floor; JRich apparently isn't the guy; Romeo causes offensive issues too; and AN and PP will get hunted on D. I guess Ime can mix-and-match but that's not ideal to developing an identity.
Part of the issue for Romeo is they never call a play for him or get him involved. He is just sent to the corner. He touched the ball 11 times in 17 minutes last night. Part, most, of that is on him but the team also needs to get him involved. Just like when they would call a play or two for Perk back in the day. He was never the best option but you have to throw guys a bone every once in a while.I like Romeo, especially his defense, but he has to contribute more on offense. Two points in 17 minutes is not enough (and the two points came late in garbage time). The C's already play 4-on-5 in the halfcourt at times with Rob Williams.
This imagines a different game that what actually happened.It will/should depend on matchups. Last night Smart was arguably our best player but with Trae out there our only reasonable matchup is with Schroder so Ime didn’t have much choice. I’m not sure any backcourt pairing works when Jaylen is turning the ball over every possession so yeah +/- whatever. Not much Ime could do here.
Great summary however the Celtics were switching so much that it seemed Trae was blowing past Tatum, TL and Al at various points last night. Would be interesting to see a summary of who was actually defending him for all of his attempts. I thought Schroder looked decent on defense last night but my eyes may have been deceiving me.This imagines a different game that what actually happened.
The Celtics were +3 with Smart but not Schroder in vs. Trae. They were -8 with Schorder but not Smart in vs Trae, and -8 (in under 3 minutes) with both in vs Trae.
- Smart and Trae were the starters, Schroder replaced Smart with Celtics having a 2 point lead. Trae is 1-3 with 2 points and an assist a rebound, and a foul.
- With Schroder in, Trae goes 2-3 with an assist, a rebound, and a tech (Tatum hits the free throw) before he checks out with the Celtics trailing by 6. Net -8 for C's.
- With Schroder still in Lou Williams comes in and Atlants extends it lead to 12 by the end of Q1, -6.
- With Smart in, Young out, Celtics are +1 over 6 minutes.
- Smart vs Trae for rest of half. Celtics narrow lead to 5 and then fall apart to end down by 15, -4 overall. Young is 2-5 with 7 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers, and a foul. Most of his damage done in the final 2 minutes of the healf.
- Smart vs Trae for over 9 minutes, during which Celtics cut lead to 4, +11. Young goes 0-5, but does score 1 point on a technical free throw, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers
- Smart without Trae for 1 minute, Celtics give up a three to increase Hawk lead to 3, -3.
- Schroder vs no Trae for final 1:40 of the third, Celtics cut lead back down 3, +4
- Schroder vs no Trae for first 3:40 of fourth, Celtics play even.
- Smart and Trae both check back in, with Schroder, and in 2.5 minutes Hawks go on 10-2 run to build lead back to 11. Trae is 2-2 for 5 points.
- Schroder checks out. Hawks do 6-0 run before garbage time, Trae goes 0-3 with rebound, steal, and foul. -6
Trae, for his part, had a rough statistical game.
"We needed more Schroder on him" is not the obvious right answer here.
- Against Smart (but not Schroder), he was 3-13 for 10 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 5 turnovers.
- Against Schroder (but not Smart), he was 2-3 for 5 points, an assist, and a rebound
- Against both, he was 2-2 for 5 points.
NBA.com has it. Go to Box score, and then choose matchups. Here's a link: Boston Celtics vs Atlanta Hawks Jan 28, 2022 Box Scores | NBA.comWould be interesting to see a summary of who was actually defending him for all of his attempts.
Fantastic. Thank you. SSS makes it difficult to draw conclusions however Trae feasted when he went up against TL and he was pretty good vs Schroder as well. Gallinari, Bogdanovic and Collins all scored at will against whoever was guarding them last night.NBA.com has it. Go to Box score, and then choose matchups. Here's a link: Boston Celtics vs Atlanta Hawks Jan 28, 2022 Box Scores | NBA.com
Young was (these are all %s): 100 v AN; 66.7 v TL; 50 v DS; 40 v JT (5 FGA); 25 v JR (4 FGA) + Al (4FGA); and 0% against everyone else. That includes 0-3 v MS; 0-2 v RL: and 0-1 v JB.
ATL causes BOS problems because they have guy after guy who beat switches. We didn't really play anyone who could bother Gallinari and Bogdanovic was hitting over basically everyone too.
How about now?We're up big in this one, and I still don't feel good about it.
Rob also had like 4 near misses on some blocks late in the game. He's getting real good at anticipating those and timing them up, and he was already pretty damned good.This game opened with Marcus attempting a lob to Rob on the first offensive possession. But Marcus must have been super-amped because he hurled it over the backboard and into the stands. Rob was asked during the past week about whether he ever complains to teammates when they throw bad lobs. His reply: "Usually, if they throw one out of reach and I say something to 'em about it, they usually say like, 'It don't matter, go get that shit.' So it's pretty cool. No excuses. I understand." Anyway, Rob would have needed a twin brother whose shoulders he could stand on to go get that one from Marcus.
There was some ebb and flow to this game, but the Celtics raced out to a big lead (27-8) and turned it back on any time New Orleans went on a run. The final score, 107-97, was not indicative of the game, as the C's were outscored 5-0 in garbage time.
Tatum and Brown led the way in this one, with 38 and 31 points each. Tatum shot only 4-13 from 3, and did not reach the line, but he added to that a perfect 13-13 from 2. He also added 8 boards, 7 assists, and 3 steals, against only 2 turnovers. Brown was 11-20 including 4-9 from 3 and 5-7 from the line.
Rob had another one of his crazy lines: 8 points on 4-6 from the field, including, somehow, a missed 3 pointer. But to that he added 16 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 blocks, and a steal. Rob is among the better bets in the league to manage a 5-5-5-5-5 game. He was tied for the team lead at +28.
Smart played 30 minutes and scored 5 points on 2-6 shooting. But he also tied his career high with 12 assists. He was tied with Rob at +28.
Of course I never said that we needed more Schroder on him. As has been the case all season we really need someone with the skillset to play the 1 at a high level on both sides of the ball. I’m impressed by your breakdown however being small sample results oriented, and I’ve been saying this since forever, the 4Q is game planned much differently to attack mismatches than 1Q-3Q. Your numbers make it seem as though Smart was locking down Trae which couldn’t be further from what occurred. Physical matchups are critical down the stretch of games as you will be exposed much more tha over the course of the prior 3Q. So while no, we didn’t need more of Schroder, we certainly didn’t need any of Smart to give Atlanta a massive physical mismatch in the 4Q and Schroder was the only reasonable answer on our roster despite his flaws.This imagines a different game that what actually happened.
The Celtics were +3 with Smart but not Schroder in vs. Trae. They were -8 with Schorder but not Smart in vs Trae, and -8 (in under 3 minutes) with both in vs Trae.
- Smart and Trae were the starters, Schroder replaced Smart with Celtics having a 2 point lead. Trae is 1-3 with 2 points and an assist a rebound, and a foul.
- With Schroder in, Trae goes 2-3 with an assist, a rebound, and a tech (Tatum hits the free throw) before he checks out with the Celtics trailing by 6. Net -8 for C's.
- With Schroder still in Lou Williams comes in and Atlants extends it lead to 12 by the end of Q1, -6.
- With Smart in, Young out, Celtics are +1 over 6 minutes.
- Smart vs Trae for rest of half. Celtics narrow lead to 5 and then fall apart to end down by 15, -4 overall. Young is 2-5 with 7 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers, and a foul. Most of his damage done in the final 2 minutes of the healf.
- Smart vs Trae for over 9 minutes, during which Celtics cut lead to 4, +11. Young goes 0-5, but does score 1 point on a technical free throw, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers
- Smart without Trae for 1 minute, Celtics give up a three to increase Hawk lead to 3, -3.
- Schroder vs no Trae for final 1:40 of the third, Celtics cut lead back down 3, +4
- Schroder vs no Trae for first 3:40 of fourth, Celtics play even.
- Smart and Trae both check back in, with Schroder, and in 2.5 minutes Hawks go on 10-2 run to build lead back to 11. Trae is 2-2 for 5 points.
- Schroder checks out. Hawks do 6-0 run before garbage time, Trae goes 0-3 with rebound, steal, and foul. -6
Trae, for his part, had a rough statistical game.
"We needed more Schroder on him" is not the obvious right answer here.
- Against Smart (but not Schroder), he was 3-13 for 10 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 5 turnovers.
- Against Schroder (but not Smart), he was 2-3 for 5 points, an assist, and a rebound
- Against both, he was 2-2 for 5 points.
Without being able to watch the game (it's now showing up on my library??).Rob had another one of his crazy lines: 8 points on 4-6 from the field, including, somehow, a missed 3 pointer. But to that he added 16 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 blocks, and a steal. Rob is among the better bets in the league to manage a 5-5-5-5-5 game. He was tied for the team lead at +28.
Smart played 30 minutes and scored 5 points on 2-6 shooting. But he also tied his career high with 12 assists. He was tied with Rob at +28.
They won by 10. Rob played 35 minutes at C, during which the Celtics were +28. Rob was off for 13 minutes where the Celtics were -18. Five points of that was garbage time. Assuming no one else played any C (which I don't recall happening), Al was +13 whhile on the floor with Rob and -13 without him.Without being able to watch the game (it's now showing up on my library??).
Looking at the box how was Rob able to be a +28 & Horford a 0? I'm assuming they started Q1 and Q3 together. +/- is pretty meaningless over half-game. Just curious if IME was spreading out more of their minutes apart?
I think Rob was pretty pumped because he was back in Louisiana and had family members at the game. He's the kind of player who clearly rises to a challenge, and he was quite impressive, from hauling in every rebound that came this way to swatting away shots. I loved that extension Brad gave him during the offseason; it will be a steal of a contract.Rob also had like 4 near misses on some blocks late in the game. He's getting real good at anticipating those and timing them up, and he was already pretty damned good.
They hit a brick wall late in the first and through the first few minutes of the second quarter because the Pelicans went to a zone. It was a very simple 2-3 zone that teams on all levels break, often by getting the ball into the middle of it and cutting behind it. But the Celtics are letting everyone, even the lowly Pelicans, get the best of them for way too long with it.
“It stands out because we’re probably the most zoned team in the league,” Udoka said. “Feels like it takes us a second to reset, get used to it, find the middle, find the spots, and then we have high-level shooters in Jayson and Jaylen that we can play off of or find those guys in the middle, so it’s a little bit of a mix. But how much we were flowing offensively, it looked like we got a little stagnant when they went to zone initially.”
The Celtics were able to get past the issues with Marcus Smart flashing to the free throw line and slinging it from there, which is how it’s supposed to be done with this team. Some teams can just crush zones by shooting over the top of it, but the Celtics aren’t a reliable team from deep -- which is why teams go to zone against them. Their only choice from there is to collapse the defense, run cutters along the baseline, and make a few passes to create some open lanes to the rim.
BRef has a nifty +/- flow chart that shows the +/- of each player's time on the floor: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/plus-minus/202201290NOP.html.Without being able to watch the game (it's now showing up on my library??).
Looking at the box how was Rob able to be a +28 & Horford a 0? I'm assuming they started Q1 and Q3 together. +/- is pretty meaningless over half-game. Just curious if IME was spreading out more of their minutes apart?
And this becomes the issue, just straight +/- in game without accounting for teammates is tough to parse.BRef has a nifty +/- flow chart that shows the +/- of each player's time on the floor: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/plus-minus/202201290NOP.html.
The difference was that BOS was +5 in the 1Q when Al left and TL stayed on and then -7 when Al came on and TL left. In the 3Q, Cs were -7 went Al was on and TL wasn't, but Cs were +9 in 4Q when Al was off.
I'll note that for both the -7 stints, DS was on the floor too.
+/- is somewhat useless game to game, just thought it was a weird divergence with them starting Q1/Q3 together and the C's jumping to a big leadAnd this becomes the issue, just straight +/- in game without accounting for teammates is tough to parse.
There always seems to be an outlier in lists like these. How did Rubio get in here with the Cavs shooting such a high FG%? So random.This wasn’t overtly surprising.
View: https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/1487526071637450752?s=20&t=BkVN3-LuCbDLnqZXmGldoA
What's the average ratio?There always seems to be an outlier in lists like these. How did Rubio get in here with the Cavs shooting such a high FG%? So random.
A pass that leads to a missed shot.What is the definition of a potential assist? Every pass made in the halfcourt offense?
Smart is up to something like top 20 over the last 5 games with 12.8 potential assists. If Marcus continues to focus on passing instead of shooting,Assist/P. Assist
Smart 5.4/10.5 35th in assist/32nd in PA.
Schroder 4.5/8.5 53rd/54th
Tatum 3.9/8.3 70th/60th
Horford 3.5/5.8
Jaylen 3.1/5.8
TL 2.0/3.4
Tatum's been a bit unlucky and should probably be averaging closer to 4.2 or 4.3 APG.
The other players are pretty much in line with NBA norms. Also, the C's really need a play maker. Not having any player in the top 30 in assists or potential assists is crazy.
Though changing the filter to 20+ games, Smart moves to 34th/29th. Not really all that better.
edit: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?sort=PASSES_MADE&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612738
Only players on the team with significant playing time averaging more passes than "passed to" are Horford, TL, Richardson and Grant Williams. And Jaylen Brown is a black hole.
From looking around, most teams top stars receive the ball more than pass unless they are Jokic, but their role players are the opposite. This is true even with players like Chris Paul. Due to rebounds and all that, bigs tend to pass more, too. So TL and Horford fit the norm. C's are only outliers due to their role players rather than their star cast.
And Tatum. Team effort there all the way around.That was great work from Rob, too.
My favorite play of the game.Smart is up to something like top 20 over the last 5 games with 12.8 potential assists. If Marcus continues to focus on passing instead of shooting,
NESN had an article with some clips of Marcus's nifty passing last night. https://nesn.com/2022/01/celtics-figuring-it-out-playing-basketball-again-for-real-for-real/ Plus, this play is special.
View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1487610365256945665
The turnover one is strange, to me. If I throw a pass off someone's foot, I don't know if I'm credited with a turnover or if that goes to the guy I'm throwing it to. But, if a pass results in a turnover, seems like there's a reasonable chance it wasn't a good pass. The shot and foul make complete sense. It's not the passer's "fault" that a guy doesn't hit a shot after you pass him the ball.edit: More specific: Potential Assist: A pass that leads directly to a possession event (shot, foul, turnover).
You are correct to point out that an errant pass shouldn't be valued the same as a good one but I am guessing that they have attribution data where bad passes aren't counted while a stone-handed teammate's fumble still gets a PA. These stats clearly have limits but I happen to like this one in particular.The turnover one is strange, to me. If I throw a pass off someone's foot, I don't know if I'm credited with a turnover or if that goes to the guy I'm throwing it to. But, if a pass results in a turnover, seems like there's a reasonable chance it wasn't a good pass. The shot and foul make complete sense. It's not the passer's "fault" that a guy doesn't hit a shot after you pass him the ball.
From the link CC shared above:The turnover one is strange, to me. If I throw a pass off someone's foot, I don't know if I'm credited with a turnover or if that goes to the guy I'm throwing it to. But, if a pass results in a turnover, seems like there's a reasonable chance it wasn't a good pass. The shot and foul make complete sense. It's not the passer's "fault" that a guy doesn't hit a shot after you pass him the ball.
I think by turnover they mean by the player who received the pass. Something like: Smart passes to Tatum, who loses the ball as he tries to gather for the layup. They would give Smart a potential assist for that. Conversely, if Smart is trying to lob it to Rob and he instead hurls the ball out of the gym (as happened on the first play of the last game), no potential assist.The turnover one is strange, to me. If I throw a pass off someone's foot, I don't know if I'm credited with a turnover or if that goes to the guy I'm throwing it to. But, if a pass results in a turnover, seems like there's a reasonable chance it wasn't a good pass. The shot and foul make complete sense. It's not the passer's "fault" that a guy doesn't hit a shot after you pass him the ball.
if his mindset is drive & dish instead of dribble & launch 3s then Marcus can be the PG while Begarin & Co marinateI feel like a big part of Smart’s game that has emerged is his drive into the paint. When we were all losing our minds over his shots his last free agent year that was a piece of his game he just didn’t have. Now, when he penetrates he can hit the runner, lay it in or throw a lob to Rob. Or, he can dish it back out to an open Jay.
My sense is that if Smart has a bit more of an attack mindset when he gets the ball back on the perimeter (as opposed to always hoisting a three) it opens up a ton for this team.
This is one area that Smart has made huge leaps in since OK State where he would just bully into the paint while overpowering smaller guard. When he first entered the league he would try this and really struggle as he isn’t quick off the dribble against most NBA guards.. Over the years he’s become pretty good at picking his spots when he has the angles to enter the paint and doesn’t force it. Then once he’s in there the game has slowed down for him so he can time the bigs length to take the floater or get to the rim.I feel like a big part of Smart’s game that has emerged is his drive into the paint. When we were all losing our minds over his shots his last free agent year that was a piece of his game he just didn’t have. Now, when he penetrates he can hit the runner, lay it in or throw a lob to Rob. Or, he can dish it back out to an open Jay.
My sense is that if Smart has a bit more of an attack mindset when he gets the ball back on the perimeter (as opposed to always hoisting a three) it opens up a ton for this team.