Brian Flores suing NFL, Giants over "sham" Rooney rule - "mistakenly" (?) sent Belichick text may be linchpin

BaseballJones said:

Maybe he just quickly realized that Tua sucks.

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I think it’s fair to question Tua and I think it’s obvious that Tua isn’t a superstar QB that can overcome a poor surrounding cast and staff. Certain QBs can. Tua clearly isn’t one of them.

That’s doesn’t mean that you can put the worst offensive line in the league in front of him, with a bunch of waiver wire fodder at RB and one guy in Waddle that can get open and then throw your hands up when Tua isn’t Deshaun Watson and the offense stinks.

Some of that reflects directly back at Flores poorly. He had his hands in the draft selections. He went through 4 offensive line coaches in 3 years. He willingly avoided drafting a RB outside of the 7th round or the waiver wire.

sodenj5 said:

The horse puns are absolutely hilarious, but this has to be 100% fake. Ivermectin and COVID weren’t a thing when Brian Flores interviewed with the Broncos.

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Well, that appears to be a fake account. It has 284 followers.

Harry Hooper said:

Great screen name and interesting post. Unlikely to see the light of day, but I imagine there could be emails or texts from a team front office type to NFL HQ along the lines of "My owner is hiring X, but we're good with Rooney as long as we bring Y in for an interview next week, right?"

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Yes, and I suspect those kinds of emails and texts do exist at individual teams. But to gain certification of a class, Flores needs to show there is common evidence applicable to every black coach who was not hired. NFL will just need to show a few examples of teams that took the rule seriously, and the class aspect will disappear. The mere fact that some teams hired black coaches after the rule was enacted actually may be enough to defeat class treatment.

Flores' individual claim is another matter. Bill's texts strongly suggest that his interview was a mere pretext and the rule was simply window dressing. And Flores' record with the Dolphins may alone be good enough to create a fact issue for trial that his firing had a racial component.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

This aspect does get a bit lost in the overall case.

if there is an existential threat the the NFL in 2022 I think it would be match fixing given the immense popularity of fantasy football and gambling.

This is not ”don’t try your hardest.” This is “we will pay you to lose.”

That this comes out in a case where the NFL is a defendant and so has to be in a defensive posture about it distorts everything. This is an allegation you would think the league and other clubs would ordinarily take seriously but now they have to circle the wagons and hope Flores loses so they can claim it didn’t happen.

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Not just match-fixing at the individual game level, ie paying the kicker to shank a FG or whatever - but the idea that anti-competitive pressure will be applied generally over time throughout the organization in subtle or not-so-subtle ways, ie "suck for Luck" and all that.
Legalized sports betting online is huge, huge, huge and no one has fully caught on yet. Any whiff of games being tainted is going to get the players pissed and the online books are going to have the hammer.

The NFL is going to find that it now works for DraftKings.

FWIW, the lack of baseball due to the work stoppage is going to piss people off for the same reason.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

This aspect does get a bit lost in the overall case.

if there is an existential threat the the NFL in 2022 I think it would be match fixing given the immense popularity of fantasy football and gambling.

This is not ”don’t try your hardest.” This is “we will pay you to lose.”

That this comes out in a case where the NFL is a defendant and so has to be in a defensive posture about it distorts everything. This is an allegation you would think the league and other clubs would ordinarily take seriously but now they have to circle the wagons and hope Flores loses so they can claim it didn’t happen.

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It was the one I addressed as if not the most damning (perpetuating racism is), the one that could hurt the league the most.

bankshot1 said:

I look forward to the NFL's investigation of the allegations of tanking to protect the integrity of the shield and what steps it might take against rogue owners threatening the integrity of the product or a promising new source of income.

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IANAL, but I imagine an enterprising lawyer might be able to file a class action suit protecting the rights and seeking damages for the fans of the NFL who spend time and money (tickets, cable, gambling merch, etc) on the premise they're getting in return a fair contest and not a staged event who's outcome will be managed, and potentially profited from, by insiders with such knowledge.

Assuming for the sake of discussion there is no settlement, and this goes to trial. What is a reasonable time frame for adjudication? Are we talking several years? If so, that would seem to very much play into the league's hands. They go on raking in billions, adding to their already very deep pockets to defend this, and at some point, whatever public sympathy and support the suit has is likely to erode. People will forget about it, and I doubt it will have any material effect on the popularity of the NFL. Also, I was struck by the use of "managed much like a plantation" in the suit. Is that kind of hyperbole commonly used in legal documents? And wondering if from a PR standpoint, deploying a kind of Godwin's law tactic was a mistake.

WestMassExpat said:

It just sounds contrived and stuck up, when Flores himself at the time was a head coach. Minor quibble, but why not just, "Bill"? It's like one of those old medical dramas where half the dialogue is, "what do you think, doctor?" "I don't know, doctor..."

edit: this is obviously the most important sub-discussion of this tread

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Have you never had a teacher or college professor who helped you along in some important way? Many of us who have continue to refer to these people as Mr./Ms./Prof. So-and-so long after we've attained some level of professional success of our own. It's a way of showing respect and honoring what they did for us. BB took a chance on him and he's clearly grateful. I simply cannot fathom why this frustrates you.

BroodsSexton said:

I think we can all express a healthy skepticism, now, about what was being reported.

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Just a good thing to keep in mind in general. Like, just looking at Omar Kelly's Twitter for instance and he's simultaneously praising the stand Flores is taking while slagging him for not being willing to tamper with Brady (suggesting loyalty to Belichick) and slamming him on willing to tamper with Watson (no citation), media folks will have their own agendas and usually some level of loyalty to ownership/management.

Is it just me that had a thought that BB sent that text on purpose? I just keep looping through in my mind the mistake while at the same time balancing his playing chess vs checkers and I can't shake the feeling that if he felt a coach he respected was being wronged that he would alert them. His military past, everything he represents it just seems like an unforced error on the face but in the back ground I just can't help but wonder. If this has been covered I apologize I didn't see it...

Disregard skipped page 5 and it's clearly a common thread.

The one thing that makes me thing this could've been an accidental text on purpose (hat tip to Larry David!) is Bill plowing forward with the coversation even after Flores' initial confusiton and questioning "have you heard something I haven't." That should've been a tip off that he was talking to the wrong Brian and made him double check. Instead, he plowed ahead and spilled the beans before walking it back and claiming he read his sources texts wrong.

sodenj5 said:

The larger point is that Tua, or any QB within those parameters, wasn’t put in the position to be successful, regardless if you think he’s any good or not.

If you’re a head coach, you are married to the QB you draft, regardless of your opinion of him. Flores didn’t seem to want to develop Tua beyond what he had already seen, and if you believe what’s been reported, was doing a lot of internal pushing to acquire Watson, directly undermining Tua.

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I think this whole lawsuit suggests "what's been reported" should not be taken at face value.

For the lawyers out there - is there any case against Ross if he tried to bribe Flores by paying him to lose games? It's like a reverse insider trading scheme in a way.

I wonder if it went down as something like this:
BB talks to someone and mentions Daboll. (Maybe even asks how he did....Bill is fishing to see if Daboll will still be on the market to replace josh)
Giants employee says "Ohh yea we really like him....probably gonna hire him"
Bill says "Ohh shit....thought maybe I could snag him to replace Josh. Well thats good for Daboll"
Giants Guy "Yea....I mean we will do our due dilligence (or "we will have a check the block meeting") with Flores and X and Y....but really think Daboll is our guy"
Bill then Txts "Brian" (but actually screwed up) "Hey congrats" His thinking is if the Giants job falls through (they decide to hire Flores or x or y for instance) He follows up with "Well, Glad it worked out, was gonna offer you the OC for the pats, so if anything falls through give me a call".
Reuniting Daboll and Mac? Makes sense.

(All this depends on when BB knew Josh was leaving....ie does the timeline match up)

Now this doesnt preclude the NFL from being racist pricks. But does sort of fill in some of the txts.


And yea count me as someone who also could see Bill as doing this accipurposly for a guy he really likes. And I would love to see a now "Ronin" "Outlaw" Flores come back to the Pats as DC and potential succession plan.

Kraft would look great. Players would love a coach who stood up for the rights of African Americans and NO ONE would be calling every year trying to steal him. Plus the guy seems like one of the better BB Branches.

What does a lateral move as OC from Buffalo to Foxboro do for Daboll career-wise? You think Daboll would be BB's replacement-in-waiting?

Daboll's currency as a HC candidate is at its peak right now. It may not decline, but it's not going higher.

bakahump said:

BB talks to someone and mentions Daboll. (Maybe even asks how he did....Bill is fishing to see if Daboll will still be on the market to replace josh)

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NYG HC job aside, why would Daboll prefer the NE OC job over the one he already had in BUF? Josh Allen has clearly made the leap, and with average talent around him (other than Diggs at WR1), they were crazy competitive.

Edit: what Harry Hooper said above.

FWIW, There is a footnote in the complaint that says the Giants were thinking Daboll might be available in a lateral move and they could possibly hire Flores as HC and Daboll as OC. The Giants brass was under the impression that Daboll was fed up with McDermott and might be available to them as an OC, not just HC.

What @cshea said plus BB is probably gonna do his due diligence on any/every coach.
Why would he leave? (assuming he didnt get a HC gig). Zeros? If they were paying josh 4 million a year....maybe they would pay Daboll 4 million a year. (admittedly I dont know what his current Buffalo contract was.....but its not unthinkable to suggest the Patriots would offer more).

OCST said:

Not just match-fixing at the individual game level, ie paying the kicker to shank a FG or whatever - but the idea that anti-competitive pressure will be applied generally over time throughout the organization in subtle or not-so-subtle ways, ie "suck for Luck" and all that.
Legalized sports betting online is huge, huge, huge and no one has fully caught on yet. Any whiff of games being tainted is going to get the players pissed and the online books are going to have the hammer.

The NFL is going to find that it now works for DraftKings.

FWIW, the lack of baseball due to the work stoppage is going to piss people off for the same reason.

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bankshot1 said:

It was the one I addressed as if not the most damning (perpetuating racism is), the one that could hurt the league the most.

IANAL, but I imagine an enterprising lawyer might be able to file a class action suit protecting the rights and seeking damages for the fans of the NFL who spend time and money (tickets, cable, gambling merch, etc) on the premise they're getting in return a fair contest and not a staged event who's outcome will be managed, and potentially profited from, by insiders with such knowledge.

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If credible evidence comes out that the Dolphins instructed Flores to throw games then I would think litigation is actually not even that hard.

Sue the league and sue the club on behalf of a class of all customers who bet on the Dolphins and lost. Throw in the league's sponsorship with the platforms as a hook but I'm not even sure that you need it.

It's the best kind of class action because you don't need to prove individual facts like reliance. Your theory is an omissions theory -- the league and the clubs have all sorts of public indicia of intent to complete including about a zillion public statements, injury reports, and their complicated rules structure (things like competitive balance enhancements like comp picks). It is foreseeable that people will gamble on the contests, including to the profit of the NFL and its individual clubs directly and indirectly, and they do so with an understanding promoted by the league that the competitions are fair. The fact that a team tried to tank is material to a reasonable bettors' decision and the omission of that fact is actionable. Reliance can be presumed. All class members were damaged in exactly the same way and the only individualized factors are damages.

I could probably plead that without breaking a sweat.

Even if the evidence is that Flores refused, I still think it's a viable case. Flores is not the sole determining factor of whether the team competes in earnest or not and the fact that the owner of the club is pushing to lose is the material fact that you say was not disclosed. It all depends on how you plead what the omission was but I guess ask the question this way: You see the Dolphins are getting 2.5 and are deciding whether to bet it. I tell you that the owner of the team offered the coach $100,000 to throw the game. Is that foreseeably material to your decision?

(This is not legal advice -- just bullshitting on a sports message board.)

jacklamabe65 said:

For pure entertainment, this thread - and the story - is going to be what gets us all through a long winter and a potential spring without baseball. I love it when entitled rich white guys get their panties all balled up and prove to be the snowiest of flakes. On a much higher level, I admire what Flo is doing, am actively rooting for him, respect his courage, and think he could win in a jury case. We should all take a knee for Brian Flores.

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100% Exactly what Rog didn't want with a long 11 days before SB. Popcorn time.

DennyDoyle'sBoil said:

It is possible that before filing suit plaintiffs sent a settlement demand or something like it to the league. Defendants often know they are going to be sued well before they actually get sued, and they may even look into the claims. Also, this is not a situation in which the clubs are being sued and the NFL is merely commenting on the suit. They have actually been sued. It's pretty usual for someone who has been sued to say "we're looking into the claims to see if they have merit." This is what you say when you get sued.

All that said, if the NFL were aware that there was video of a meeting at Dolphins headquarters with the executives saying "fire him because he is black," they probably would have put out the same statement.

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Worth noting that on Mike Greenberg’s show, Flores’ lawyers didn’t suggest the NFL had any advance notice of this and said it was ridiculous that a league that spent years investigating deflated footballs dismissed a much more complex and sensitive issue like this out of hand inside of two hours.

While he could have been grandstanding, I didn’t get that sense.

loshjott said:

Flores probably would have gotten close to half a dozen DC offers if he kept his mouth shut and moved on from the Dolphins. Why should he settle for one now?

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I agree! He shouldn't settle for one!

sodenj5 said:

The horse puns are absolutely hilarious, but this has to be 100% fake. Ivermectin and COVID weren’t a thing when Brian Flores interviewed with the Broncos.

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I feel dumb, but I laughed very hard at it.

bakahump said:

I wonder if it went down as something like this:
BB talks to someone and mentions Daboll. (Maybe even asks how he did....Bill is fishing to see if Daboll will still be on the market to replace josh)
Giants employee says "Ohh yea we really like him....probably gonna hire him"
Bill says "Ohh shit....thought maybe I could snag him to replace Josh. Well thats good for Daboll"
Giants Guy "Yea....I mean we will do our due dilligence (or "we will have a check the block meeting") with Flores and X and Y....but really think Daboll is our guy"
Bill then Txts "Brian" (but actually screwed up) "Hey congrats" His thinking is if the Giants job falls through (they decide to hire Flores or x or y for instance) He follows up with "Well, Glad it worked out, was gonna offer you the OC for the pats, so if anything falls through give me a call".
Reuniting Daboll and Mac? Makes sense.

(All this depends on when BB knew Josh was leaving....ie does the timeline match up)

Now this doesnt preclude the NFL from being racist pricks. But does sort of fill in some of the txts.


And yea count me as someone who also could see Bill as doing this accipurposly for a guy he really likes. And I would love to see a now "Ronin" "Outlaw" Flores come back to the Pats as DC and potential succession plan.

Kraft would look great. Players would love a coach who stood up for the rights of African Americans and NO ONE would be calling every year trying to steal him. Plus the guy seems like one of the better BB Branches.

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In what world does Buffalo grant Daboll permission to seek the same position in New England?

He was already high on my favorite coaches list due to BC and Patriots, but he's top 2 now. So much respect for him. So brave to do this. Go Flo!

YTF said:

In what world does Buffalo grant Daboll permission to seek the same position in New England?

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Absolutely none.


I feel this side discussion of Belichick doing it on purpose to be a slight step above why is he calling him coach.

boca said:

Why would Elway be taking Ivermectin in January 19?

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Maybe he was drinking some of grandpa’s ol’ Ivermectin when he came up with that excuse?

Oops I got tricked.

Isn’t the likely end goal here that Flores and his attorneys get to negotiate actual processes and rules to fight structural racism in the NFL in addition to money?

This dropped just as my initial complaint assignment was due in my Trial Advocacy class. Seriously considered adding a BB quote under the caption, but figured it would not be well received here in Central PA.

I think it's an interesting read from an educational standpoint, and a frustrating read as a fan. I thought that Flores had finished the season on a positive note (against the Patriots, unfortunately), and was surprised when he got fired. This lawsuit certainly gives a couple possible reasons why. It's certainly a good time to have an exempt PACER account.

It's so dumb for both sides that if the Giants interviewed Daboll, decided they'd hit a home run and he was their guy, that they still were supposed to go ahead and interview Flores anyway for a job that was no longer open.

scottyno said:

It's so dumb for both sides that if the Giants interviewed Daboll, decided they'd hit a home run and he was their guy, that they still were supposed to go ahead and interview Flores anyway for a job that was no longer open.

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Isn’t part of the Rooney Rule’s purpose to at least grr minority coaches in the room? You never know what’ll happen in an interview, and at least it creates a favorable opportunity a few years down the road when the position inevitably comes open again.

Not saying it’s perfect, or it’s even a good system - but that’s the rationale I’ve heard in the past, and I think there’s some logic behind it.

scottyno said:

It's so dumb for both sides that if the Giants interviewed Daboll, decided they'd hit a home run and he was their guy, that they still were supposed to go ahead and interview Flores anyway for a job that was no longer open.

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It's been incredibly useful, because it has shown that the "home run" interviews seem to be predominantly conducted with white candidates.

scottyno said:

It's so dumb for both sides that if the Giants interviewed Daboll, decided they'd hit a home run and he was their guy, that they still were supposed to go ahead and interview Flores anyway for a job that was no longer open.

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How would they know Daboll is their guy before they interview Flores?

And how many of these ‘home run’ interviews actually turned into ‘home runs’ (or even doubles)?

scottyno said:

It's so dumb for both sides that if the Giants interviewed Daboll, decided they'd hit a home run and he was their guy, that they still were supposed to go ahead and interview Flores anyway for a job that was no longer open.

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How could they have possibly known that Daboll was "their guy" when they hadn't met Flores yet. Daboll was a home run, what if Flores was a grand slam. If you are going to take the bias out of hiring processes, you've got to at least commit to a diverse slate of candidates, to keeping your mind open about everyone you are going to meet, and to not making a decision until the end. That's kind of the whole point of the rule.

If you are just checking the box and have no intention of hiring Flores regardless of how his interview goes, well, that's his whole point.

Ralphwiggum said:

How could they have possibly known that Daboll was "their guy" when they hadn't met Flores yet. Daboll was a home run, what if Flores was a grand slam. If you are going to take the bias out of hiring processes, you've got to at least commit to a diverse slate of candidates, to keeping your mind open about everyone you are going to meet, and to not making a decision until the end. That's kind of the whole point of the rule.

If you are just checking the box and have no intention of hiring Flores regardless of how his interview goes, well, that's his whole point.

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Daboll was the guy because it was essentially a package deal from Buffalo. Assistant GM from Buffalo gets Giants GM job and brings Daboll who he knows and has relationship with him. Flores never had a shot.

Right. Which means the Flores interview was a sham and just checking off the box.

jsinger121 said:

Daboll was the guy because it was essentially a package deal from Buffalo. Assistant GM from Buffalo gets Giants GM job and brings Daboll who he knows and has relationship with him. Flores never had a shot.

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Right but that's precisely Flores' point. These are the way these things happen in the NFL, there isn't an actual process by which a coach is chosen on the merits. The purpose of the Rooney Rule is to give minority candidates a chance to win the job. If you are just going through the motions it defeats the purpose of the rule and in actuality does more harm than good as evidenced by Flores being willing to flush his whole career on the basis of an incredibly demoralizing sham interview.

scottyno said:

It's so dumb for both sides that if the Giants interviewed Daboll, decided they'd hit a home run and he was their guy, that they still were supposed to go ahead and interview Flores anyway for a job that was no longer open.

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This type of system is not uncommon, even outside the NFL for EO purposes. At the company I work for, if we already have a great candidate in mind for an opening that's about to be posted, HR still makes us post the job for a minimum of five days and review the resumes that come in. I don't have to actually interview any of the other candidates if their resumes don't stack up but if an applicant is similarly qualified to my preferred candidate I do.

Mooch said:

I wonder if Hue Jackson is about to join the suit:

View: https://twitter.com/huejack10/status/1488678199265480705?s=20&t=b_fCHP2BqDcQgpf_H5W94w

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This appears to have been a prescient question:

Two sources close to former Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson said Wednesday that Jackson has made arrangements to speak with Flores’ attorneys about the suit as early as today. The sources also said Jackson has expressed a willingness to provide both testimony and materials to the class action suit, alleging that Browns owner Jimmy Haslam financially incentivized “tanking” for draft position through the use of a bonus structure during the 2016 and 2017 seasons, when Cleveland went 1-31.

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https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-hue-jackson-may-join-brian-flores-lawsuit-claims-to-have-proof-that-browns-incentivized-tanking-200931895.html

The last couple weeks’ playoff games had me veering hard into NFL4Lyfe territory, but now I’m back to feeling icky about it.

The money for tanking doesn’t bother me in a vacuum. I don’t expect a ton of purity in sports. It’ll be interesting to see what else Jackson has to say. I’m glad to see people leaping to support Flores though.

scottyno said:

It's so dumb for both sides that if the Giants interviewed Daboll, decided they'd hit a home run and he was their guy, that they still were supposed to go ahead and interview Flores anyway for a job that was no longer open.

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Apparently that’s what happened when the Colts interviewed Reich after already deciding on McDaniel. And it was a good thing

Ralphwiggum said:

How could they have possibly known that Daboll was "their guy" when they hadn't met Flores yet. Daboll was a home run, what if Flores was a grand slam. If you are going to take the bias out of hiring processes, you've got to at least commit to a diverse slate of candidates, to keeping your mind open about everyone you are going to meet, and to not making a decision until the end. That's kind of the whole point of the rule.

If you are just checking the box and have no intention of hiring Flores regardless of how his interview goes, well, that's his whole point.

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Yep, and the Giants releasing a statement saying that Daboll was "most qualified" shows how silly this whole process is across the league. There's simply no way to objectively determine that someone is "most qualified".

Can one claim that an offensive coordinator is objectively more qualified than someone who has been a head coach for three years, with winning seasons in the past 2? Of course not.

Daboll simply has the trust of the new GM because they worked together previously. And that is the crux of the problem in the NFL -- the good ol' boy network persists (as it does in most industries) and black coaches, GMs, front office personnel and owners are under-represted in that network.

Marciano490 said:

The last couple weeks’ playoff games had me veering hard into NFL4Lyfe territory, but now I’m back to feeling icky about it.

The money for tanking doesn’t bother me in a vacuum. I don’t expect a ton of purity in sports. It’ll be interesting to see what else Jackson has to say. I’m glad to see people leaping to support Flores though.

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I mean, did Ross offer to pay all the players too? I don't actually know if a coach can throw a game, can they? Because players are going to play and we've all see cases where teams that weren't as good as teams they're playing still win. These players are playing for their next contract and also for pride, I just can't see an entire team deciding to lose you know?

jcd0805 said:

I mean, did Ross offer to pay all the players too? I don't actually know if a coach can throw a game, can they? Because players are going to play and we've all see cases where teams that weren't as good as teams they're playing still win. These players are playing for their next contract and also for pride, I just can't see an entire team deciding to lose you know?

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I would imagine the coach can throw the game much more easily than all the players combined.