2022 PGA Tour

Eagle3

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Well sure, but they are there there, and everyone has the same rules when it comes to them. I guess I just see 16 and 18 as totally different in terms of "breaks."
Being able to place the ball into a perfect lie was huge too. If that ball is buried in deep rough it brings chunking it short into play.
 
Being able to place the ball into a perfect lie was huge too. If that ball is buried in deep rough it brings chunking it short into play.
As Rory was placing that ball, I was thinking how bogus it is that anyone can benefit from a dropping the ball on the edge of the permitted area and watching it bounce just out of range twice like that. The only time that benefit should ever be invoked is in situations where the ball literally can't stop in the area in question without being placed; otherwise, referees should be empowered to tell players to drop the ball in such a way that its final resting place remains within the one or two club-lengths.

(No criticism of Rory at all here, of course - he was just playing by the rules as written, and 100 out of 100 Tour pros would have done exactly the same thing. But being able to game the system like this just seems wrong, not that I expect this rule would ever actually change.)
 

Eagle3

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As Rory was placing that ball, I was thinking how bogus it is that anyone can benefit from a dropping the ball on the edge of the permitted area and watching it bounce just out of range twice like that. The only time that benefit should ever be invoked is in situations where the ball literally can't stop in the area in question without being placed; otherwise, referees should be empowered to tell players to drop the ball in such a way that its final resting place remains within the one or two club-lengths.

(No criticism of Rory at all here, of course - he was just playing by the rules as written, and 100 out of 100 Tour pros would have done exactly the same thing. But being able to game the system like this just seems wrong, not that I expect this rule would ever actually change.)
TOTALLY agree with everything you said. I was going to include that. You did a great job of describing it. That's a rule that should be changed. Chances are Rory still makes par out of a bad lie because all he had to do was get it on the green, but that shot became dramatically easier when he was allowed to tee it up.
 

cshea

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Niemann heading to LIV. That's a surprise.
HVIII as well
Sounds like LIV is going to announce 7 names today.

Cam Smith
Leishman
Niemann
HV3
Tringale
Lahiri

The 7th is a bit of a mystery, may be Mito Peireira.

Niemann is a tough one, but not totally surprising. He was in the room of the Delaware meeting last week so from that perspective it sucks, but he's been rumored to be going for a long long time. He's very close to Sergio and views him as a mentor. The rest of them...who cares. Leish is at the Poulter/Westwood stage of his career, HV3 is a popular guy but all in all not a huge loss from a competitive standpoint. Tringale and Lahiri are nobodies.

(Side note- they should spot the International team like 12 points at the PC in a few weeks, they are getting decimated. Apparently this wave for LIV can't wait until after the PC, the players have to play the LIV event this week to meet the minimum events played to be eligible for the season long stuff over on LIV)

Keeping Hideki is a nice win for the PGA Tour.

A question posed by Colt Knost to NLU...if this the last wave of guys, are you OK with it?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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Sounds like LIV is going to announce 7 names today.

Cam Smith
Leishman
Niemann
HV3
Tringale
Lahiri

The 7th is a bit of a mystery, may be Mito Peireira.

Niemann is a tough one, but not totally surprising. He was in the room of the Delaware meeting last week so from that perspective it sucks, but he's been rumored to be going for a long long time. He's very close to Sergio and views him as a mentor. The rest of them...who cares. Leish is at the Poulter/Westwood stage of his career, HV3 is a popular guy but all in all not a huge loss from a competitive standpoint. Tringale and Lahiri are nobodies.

(Side note- they should spot the International team like 12 points at the PC in a few weeks, they are getting decimated. Apparently this wave for LIV can't wait until after the PC, the players have to play the LIV event this week to meet the minimum events played to be eligible for the season long stuff over on LIV)

Keeping Hideki is a nice win for the PGA Tour.

A question posed by Colt Knost to NLU...if this the last wave of guys, are you OK with it?
Um, I mean, Cam Smith is awesome, presently the #2 player in the world, current Open Champion. "Who cares?" It's a big frigging deal that Cam Smith is leaving for LIV.
 

cshea

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Um, I mean, Cam Smith is awesome, presently the #2 player in the world, current Open Champion. "Who cares?" It's a big frigging deal that Cam Smith is leaving for LIV.
Well yes, he's their greatest coup. I just didn't single him out because we've known he's been going for a while. It's the other 5 names that a noteworthy from a news perspective.
 

bostonbeerbelly

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If this is the last wave - then their recruitment fielded top level talent as below. My ranking of care.

Cameron Smith
Dustin Johnson
Brooks Koepka
Bryson DeChambeau
Phil Mickelson
Sergio Garcia
Patrick Reed
Matthew Wolff
Bubba Watson
Paul Casey
Niemann
Abraham Ancer
Louis Oostiuizen
Kevin Na
Kason Kokrak
Talor Gooch
Lee Westwood
Ian Poulter
Harold Varner 3
Marc Leishman
Cameron Tringale
Anirban Lahiri
Hudson Swafford
Charl Schwartzel

So about half of the 48 player field are names that would be picked up in our fantasy golf league. Honestly probably a bit better field than I had imagined, but I still don't give a shit about this league.
 

BigMike

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If this is the last wave - then their recruitment fielded top level talent as below. My ranking of care.

Cameron Smith
Dustin Johnson
Brooks Koepka
Bryson DeChambeau
Phil Mickelson
Sergio Garcia
Patrick Reed
Matthew Wolff
Bubba Watson
Paul Casey
Niemann
Abraham Ancer
Louis Oostiuizen
Kevin Na
Kason Kokrak
Talor Gooch
Lee Westwood
Ian Poulter
Harold Varner 3
Marc Leishman
Cameron Tringale
Anirban Lahiri
Hudson Swafford
Charl Schwartzel

So about half of the 48 player field are names that would be picked up in our fantasy golf league. Honestly probably a bit better field than I had imagined, but I still don't give a shit about this league.
There are definitely some guys I will miss on here, on the other hand they also got about 10 guys who if I miss it will be I miss rooting against them . There is not a ton of personality on that tour. Like maybe I would watch a round sometime if I were interested in seeing the course, but really there is no one there who would make me tune in to watch
 

cshea

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LIV makes Cam, Niemann, Leish, HV3, Tringale and Lahiri offical. If you're headed to the event this weekend, they'll be there.
 

BaseballJones

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What I think will end up happening is this (looking into my crystal ball here):

The PGA Tour will make basically all the changes that Mickelson was hoping they'd make, or at least that he was claiming he hoped they'd make. Greater partnership between players and the Tour, a lot more money involved, etc. But it will hold up in court that the PGA Tour won't have to include LIV guys in their events. The LIV tour will have very little interest, as the changes made in the PGA Tour will be sufficient to keep most of the best players in the world, given the added $$, increased partnership, and far greater prestige.

And the LIV guys will end up missing out on the "real" golf, and though their pocketbooks will be stuffed, they'll end up regretting making the move, and there will be no real way back. The up and coming studs will by and large stay with the PGA Tour, meaning the LIV talent pipeline will eventually dry up or slow to a trickle, or end up always being basically guys at the tail end of their careers who just want to make a fortune, not caring about the PGA Tour at that point in their careers.

So after 10 years of this, the PGA Tour will remain the dominant, clear #1 Tour in golf, with all the prestigious events and with huge money, and the vast majority of talent will flow there. And all the changes Mickelson says he wanted will happen, but he personally won't get the chance to reap those benefits.


Just my guess as to what will happen.
 

cshea

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I think this is probably it for a little while.

I think there are 3 items that'll decide how this goes in the future. The majors, OWGR and the lawsuit. OWGR and the lawsuit will likely take a few years to sort out. We'll see what happens with the majors. ANGC is on the clock as the next major up and their decision regardling LIV players will have major long term implications.
 

voidfunkt

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Any other SoSH'ers going to the LIV event on Friday? I'm planning to show up sometime after they start playing, have a couple beers, walk around, then take off. Mostly in it for the spectacle. Ticket cost me $8. DM me to coordinate.
 

jercra

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I think this is probably it for a little while.

I think there are 3 items that'll decide how this goes in the future. The majors, OWGR and the lawsuit. OWGR and the lawsuit will likely take a few years to sort out. We'll see what happens with the majors. ANGC is on the clock as the next major up and their decision regardling LIV players will have major long term implications.
Don't sleep on the DP World Tour and courts in Europe. If LIV players are allowed to play there by decree they'll have a fairly easy way to earn OWGR points and exemptions into the majors. Not sure how that will all shake out in courts, but it's definitely one their strategies as evidenced by the stay they got before the Scottish.
 
Don't sleep on the DP World Tour and courts in Europe. If LIV players are allowed to play there by decree they'll have a fairly easy way to earn OWGR points and exemptions into the majors. Not sure how that will all shake out in courts, but it's definitely one their strategies as evidenced by the stay they got before the Scottish.
To this end, the European Tour situation should be resolved over the course of a five-day hearing in February - we'll know much more about this then:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/aug/30/dp-world-tour-sets-february-date-for-decision-over-liv-golf-rebels
 

Dave Stapleton

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They make it so hard to watch this thing. Figured I try to see a little bit of the tourney but it’s maddening. Also, when you scan the QR code from smart tv they’re using a freeware and haven’t paid for the upgrade to remove the ad for the program!
 

Joe D Reid

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The whole LIV thing will be worth it if it causes a bunch of rich Saudi dudes to have to wrap their minds around Bolton, MA. It's a shame they are a touch early for apple picking.
 

Joe D Reid

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Amazing. And someone at the club whose responsibilities apparently include strategic communications managed to uncork this beauty in response:

"Unfortunately, the manner in which this situation has played out has not been conducive to constructive conversation nor resolution."

All we need now is to get Berlin involved and Nashoba Regional is doomed.
 

voidfunkt

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So anyways, I went to the LIV thing today... at least the weather was good.

Positive:

1. Small crowds
2. Beer is reasonably priced at $6 for 12oz
3. You can apparently buy 25oz cans of beer... I had no idea such a wonderful thing existed.
4. I got to watch Bryson shank one into the woods and then hit it out...
5. I almost got to watch Cam Smith play a shot left-handed but he decided to take a drop. Cam Smith is shorter than I expected...
6. Fans don't seem to be taking it seriously at all. A lot of ribbing the players. Lots of hushed up jokes about LIV rules when guys got in trouble and you could get within a couple feet of the players.
7. Weather was really nice.

Negatives:

1. The format is absolutely awful. Shotgun play does not work at all for live viewership. It probably works great for TV but it's unwatchable live. Also there are huge gaps between things happening... for whatever reason LIV only wants a single group on a hole at a time so they pace it so green's have to be clear before the next group gets to the tee. This is painful. Also I don't think anybody understands the weird team shit.
2. No energy whatsoever from the players. Absolutely 100% felt like an exhibition. They're all just out there going through the motions of a golf game without a care in the world about winning or the money.
3. It's impossible to figure out where anyone is on the course. Not enough signage indicating where players are.
4. Not enough signage indicating who the players are. The caddies have the names on their backs, but often they are covered up by stuff. There's no sign guy carrying the group names.
5. Concessions are few and far between also The International is not a good course for walking as a fan, especially if you're with your 70-something dad and he has a cane. It's super hilly and the event set up almost nowhere to sit.
6. They pump in music onto the course... its really weird that five feet off the green there will be a boom box playing some weird techno jam while the players are putting. It's almost like they want it to be a fun party atmosphere... but its not.

For $8 I can't complain too much. It was a cheap ticket. I can't see myself ever going again though, there's no compelling reason in my mind.
 

jercra

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So anyways, I went to the LIV thing today... at least the weather was good.

Positive:

1. Small crowds
2. Beer is reasonably priced at $6 for 12oz
3. You can apparently buy 25oz cans of beer... I had no idea such a wonderful thing existed.
4. I got to watch Bryson shank one into the woods and then hit it out...
5. I almost got to watch Cam Smith play a shot left-handed but he decided to take a drop. Cam Smith is shorter than I expected...
6. Fans don't seem to be taking it seriously at all. A lot of ribbing the players. Lots of hushed up jokes about LIV rules when guys got in trouble and you could get within a couple feet of the players.
7. Weather was really nice.

Negatives:

1. The format is absolutely awful. Shotgun play does not work at all for live viewership. It probably works great for TV but it's unwatchable live. Also there are huge gaps between things happening... for whatever reason LIV only wants a single group on a hole at a time so they pace it so green's have to be clear before the next group gets to the tee. This is painful. Also I don't think anybody understands the weird team shit.
2. No energy whatsoever from the players. Absolutely 100% felt like an exhibition. They're all just out there going through the motions of a golf game without a care in the world about winning or the money.
3. It's impossible to figure out where anyone is on the course. Not enough signage indicating where players are.
4. Not enough signage indicating who the players are. The caddies have the names on their backs, but often they are covered up by stuff. There's no sign guy carrying the group names.
5. Concessions are few and far between also The International is not a good course for walking as a fan, especially if you're with your 70-something dad and he has a cane. It's super hilly and the event set up almost nowhere to sit.
6. They pump in music onto the course... its really weird that five feet off the green there will be a boom box playing some weird techno jam while the players are putting. It's almost like they want it to be a fun party atmosphere... but its not.

For $8 I can't complain too much. It was a cheap ticket. I can't see myself ever going again though, there's no compelling reason in my mind.
Shotgun starts are even worse for TV. If it were an actual business enterprise there's no way they would choose to have fewer slots for advertising and have all the drama of 1 player trying to birdie a par 5 while another tries to par a par 3 at the exact same time. Now picture it with more than 2 players in contention. It's made for corporate scrambles, not professional golf.
 

TFP

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The whole LIV thing will be worth it if it causes a bunch of rich Saudi dudes to have to wrap their minds around Bolton, MA. It's a shame they are a touch early for apple picking.
The players are all at the Embassy Suites in Marlborough. Not exactly living in the lap of luxury.
 

jercra

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There's actually one good thing I would say about the shotgun start, and that's that it is probably the fairest competitive format, insofar as everyone is out on the course during the same weather. Otherwise, I like literally nothing about it.
I know what you're getting at, but it's no more fair than any other format. If I start out on the hardest hole while the weather is calm and you start out on the easiest but a big wind comes up before you get to the hardest hole, you think that's fair? The reality is that golf is never going to be fair. Unlike other sports, you can only have a few competitors playing on the same field at the same time. Even in the course of just playing that once hole you can get large wind changes from shot-to-shot since it's also the only sport with multiple balls in play from multiple locations. I guess a shotgun start reduces the amount of time for weather changes, but it seems minimal.
 
I know what you're getting at, but it's no more fair than any other format. If I start out on the hardest hole while the weather is calm and you start out on the easiest but a big wind comes up before you get to the hardest hole, you think that's fair? The reality is that golf is never going to be fair. Unlike other sports, you can only have a few competitors playing on the same field at the same time. Even in the course of just playing that once hole you can get large wind changes from shot-to-shot since it's also the only sport with multiple balls in play from multiple locations. I guess a shotgun start reduces the amount of time for weather changes, but it seems minimal.
I said that everyone is out on the course during the same weather, not that the same wind would be on the same holes for every player. Usually it's the strength of the wind (regardless of the direction it's in) and any other weird conditions like rain or big temperature/humidity changes that can give the early or late starters a pronounced advantage on any given day; really the only reason the shotgun start is a real improvement in this regard is more that using a shotgun start means your field has to be pretty small and as such there can't be a big early/late split even if you didn't use the shotgun.

Anyway, shotgun starts suck. End of story. :)
 

bostonbeerbelly

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Phil Mickelson has played all 4 events. So 11 rounds before today. His best round is a -1 (2 times). 34th/42nd and 35th before today where he should finish in the high 30’s. How long can you have one of the “faces” of your league play like dogshit. There are only 109K fans watching currently on YouTube - can this really last for more than 2 years?
 

FL4WL3SS

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Phil Mickelson has played all 4 events. So 11 rounds before today. His best round is a -1 (2 times). 34th/42nd and 35th before today where he should finish in the high 30’s. How long can you have one of the “faces” of your league play like dogshit. There are only 109K fans watching currently on YouTube - can this really last for more than 2 years?
And most of that 109k is idle curiosity that will fade over the next month or two.
 

jercra

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Phil Mickelson has played all 4 events. So 11 rounds before today. His best round is a -1 (2 times). 34th/42nd and 35th before today where he should finish in the high 30’s. How long can you have one of the “faces” of your league play like dogshit. There are only 109K fans watching currently on YouTube - can this really last for more than 2 years?
How much money do you think the Saudi government has? It's more than 2 years worth.

People need to stop thinking of LIV as a business. It's not. It never has been. It's an advertising/marketing campaign. There is no intent to make money The intent is to change the perception of Saudi Arabia and its royal family. It's no more trying to turn a profit than a "Vote for Biden" ad is.
 

BigSoxFan

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Phil Mickelson has played all 4 events. So 11 rounds before today. His best round is a -1 (2 times). 34th/42nd and 35th before today where he should finish in the high 30’s. How long can you have one of the “faces” of your league play like dogshit. There are only 109K fans watching currently on YouTube - can this really last for more than 2 years?
He can shoot an 82 every round and it won’t matter. He did his job by signing on and giving LIV a “face” that they needed to keep the momentum of defections going.
 

bostonbeerbelly

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How much money do you think the Saudi government has? It's more than 2 years worth.

People need to stop thinking of LIV as a business. It's not. It never has been. It's an advertising/marketing campaign. There is no intent to make money The intent is to change the perception of Saudi Arabia and its royal family. It's no more trying to turn a profit than a "Vote for Biden" ad is.
Completely understand on them not needing to make any money on this, but if no one is paying any attention - does it continue.
 

voidfunkt

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People need to stop thinking of LIV as a business. It's not. It never has been. It's an advertising/marketing campaign. There is no intent to make money The intent is to change the perception of Saudi Arabia and its royal family. It's no more trying to turn a profit than a "Vote for Biden" ad is.
But do we actually think the average person realizes Saudi Arabia is bank-rolling this thing? I don't even think SA is mentioned anywhere. Unless you've been tuned into the LIV drama since the beginning it's hard to figure out how someone would find the Saudi Arabia connection. For sports washing to work you need to be pumping the propaganda pretty hard and I just don't see that with LIV unless I've missed it.

Also totally anecdotal, but I think the "Saudi Arabia bad" argument is falling flat with a lot of people. All the people I've talked to in person about this have basically gone with the "who gives a shit?" response.
 

jercra

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Right. What purpose does it serve if nobody watches?
Headlines, headlines and more headlines. What has dominated all professional golf conversation for the last 6 months? Golf is pretty niche already. They're not after mainstream audiences. Think of it the other way around. Why spend billions expecting no one to watch or care? Does anyone on this board not know who's bankrolling this? It's working too, apparently since apparently "Saudi bad" is falling flat.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Phil Mickelson has played all 4 events. So 11 rounds before today. His best round is a -1 (2 times). 34th/42nd and 35th before today where he should finish in the high 30’s. How long can you have one of the “faces” of your league play like dogshit. There are only 109K fans watching currently on YouTube - can this really last for more than 2 years?
is 109k bad for a brand new league?


But do we actually think the average person realizes Saudi Arabia is bank-rolling this thing? I don't even think SA is mentioned anywhere. Unless you've been tuned into the LIV drama since the beginning it's hard to figure out how someone would find the Saudi Arabia connection. For sports washing to work you need to be pumping the propaganda pretty hard and I just don't see that with LIV unless I've missed it.
The average person doesn't know what LIV is. The average person who knows what LIV is definitely knows who is bank rolling it.
 

cshea

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Immelman has anounced his Captain's picks. Here is the full International team for the PC in two weeks.

Hideki Matsuyama
Sungjae Im
Adam Scott
Tom Kim
Mito Peireira
Corey Conners
Christiaan Bezeuidenhout
KH Lee
Si Woo Kim
Taylor Pendrith
Sebastian Munoz
Cam Davis

Anything can happen of course but there's a reasonable chance it is over on Saturday.
 

cshea

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A bit of a testy week for professional golf at the BMW PGA Championship. It's the DP World Tour's flagship event. A legal ruling in the UK allows 15 LIV players to be in the field.

Feelings are mixed. The LIV guys aren't really talking about it. The PGA pro's aren't all that enthused. There are hardliners like Billy Ho who thinks no-LIV players should be allowed and mused that he was told they went to LIV to play less golf. I haven't heard Rory talk this week, but when he won the Tour Championship he said he was uneasy about playing with the LIV guys at the BMW. Rahm had a more middle-of0the-road take. He's OK with Sergio, Westwood, Poulter, etc. playing in the event because they are legacy DP World Tour players. Rahm takes issue with Ancer, Gooch and Kokrak playing because they've never shown an interest in the Tour or the BMW Championship and are only there for the ranking points. Apparently a friend of Rahm's, a Spanish player who made 20 starts on the DP World Tour this season is first alternate and Rahm thinks it's BS that Ancer, Gooch and Kokrak who have previously given no shits about the DP World Tour are in.