2022-2023 General Celtics thread
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
- Start date
Is another downstream effect of TimeLord being out the change of Tatum's role: more of a rim protector, and less of a deflection machine?
Lol at the "Lakers have suffered from some bad starts". More accurate would have been "Lakers have suffered from some bad 1st, 3rd, and 4th quarters, but are otherwise doing OK."
Celtics numbers seem to match the eye test where they build up a halftime lead and watch their opponent close it up a bit in the 3rd quarter.
4th q Celtics numbers also match the eye test: they've been really, really good then this year.
On the flip side, there's benefit to keeping the clock moving: the NFL (on out of bounds, iirc) and NBA both do this prior to late-game, and they like that it keeps games a bit shorter.
There's an easy fix if teams don't like it and everyone does it and it gets to be a problem: send a guy to force a ball pick-up. Doesn't seem like it lowers product quality, aside from officials (!) not knowing the rule.
I think that's right. I think the rule should stay as it is, but the NBA will probably change it on the theory that it loks weird, so there must be a problem that needs fixing.
Agreed. And I think it helps offenses in that the defense can't just set their half-court defense early if they have to send someone to press full-court.
NBA will change the rule so the 8 decond clock begins when the ball crosses the endline I would guess. Great strategy - and I love the double blocker sets - but the NBA doesn't want times when the ball is sitting on the floor and defenders have to run through a gauntlet to get to the ball.
Or they may appreciate that a defender ran at the ball-handler, Smart quickly picked up the ball and dribbled past the ball-handler, and then they passed the ball while the defender was trying to catch up- a 5-on-4 resulted, and Tatum hit an open 3.
If they like offense, this isn't a bad way to encourage defenders to actually defend full-court.
Seems 50-50 to me.
Another nice win. This game went back and forth with the Celtics not getting to a 10 point lead until late in the 4th. Detriot has some exciting young talent that isn't there yet, while the Celtics played without Al, Brogdon, and Jaylen. Detroit led at the half but the Celtics got some distance in the third and then hung on.
Tatum was incredible in this one, playing 41 minutes and scoring 43 points on 14 of 28 shooting, plius 10 rebounds, 3 assists, a steal and a block.
Grant was an iron man, going 45 minutes and scoring 19 with 10 rebounds and 4 assists. 7-12 from the field, 3-6 from three.
Smart played 43 minutes, did not shoot great (7 of 17), but did have 18 points, 10 assists, 5 steals and a block.
Off the bench, Hauser had his second consecutive game shooting 1-6 from three. Protchard played 15 minutes and did not put up much in the way of stats but was a +16.
Blake, Kornet, and Vonleh played the minutes at C. Blake started and had 7 points and 6 reounds in 22 minutes. Kornet played 8 minutes in the first half and scored 6 points, but did not play in the second half. Vonleh played 1 minute in the first half and then 19 workmanlike minutes in the second. Scored only 2 points but had 7 rebounds and 2 assists.
Nice to see them win while shorthanded, but Tatum is due for a maintenance day.
Tatum was incredible in this one, playing 41 minutes and scoring 43 points on 14 of 28 shooting, plius 10 rebounds, 3 assists, a steal and a block.
Grant was an iron man, going 45 minutes and scoring 19 with 10 rebounds and 4 assists. 7-12 from the field, 3-6 from three.
Smart played 43 minutes, did not shoot great (7 of 17), but did have 18 points, 10 assists, 5 steals and a block.
Off the bench, Hauser had his second consecutive game shooting 1-6 from three. Protchard played 15 minutes and did not put up much in the way of stats but was a +16.
Blake, Kornet, and Vonleh played the minutes at C. Blake started and had 7 points and 6 reounds in 22 minutes. Kornet played 8 minutes in the first half and scored 6 points, but did not play in the second half. Vonleh played 1 minute in the first half and then 19 workmanlike minutes in the second. Scored only 2 points but had 7 rebounds and 2 assists.
Nice to see them win while shorthanded, but Tatum is due for a maintenance day.
Monday is a great opportunity for that. 1. It’s OKC and 2. they’ll be playing game 2 of a B2B.
Super impressed by a. their passing skills in general and b. the number of times they make the one extra pass to get the best shot possible. This offense is a goddamned juggernaut.
The Smart burn is only done from the 2-6 minute mark in Q4...all the defense has to do is show a defender initially in the backcourt for the inbound. Astute, well-coached teams should adjust
Nice shorthanded win against a bleh team.
Offense is still clicking, defense is still improving, and Tatum is still leveled up. Everyone basically skated their lane.
Watched Hauser quite a bit on defense, and he again held his own admirably. Even when he's not hitting a ton of shots, he's not a weak link. PP looked a little better than he has. Glad to see him getting minutes. Vonleh and Blake both did what they were supposed to do also. Again, everyone did their job.
Good shit.
Offense is still clicking, defense is still improving, and Tatum is still leveled up. Everyone basically skated their lane.
Watched Hauser quite a bit on defense, and he again held his own admirably. Even when he's not hitting a ton of shots, he's not a weak link. PP looked a little better than he has. Glad to see him getting minutes. Vonleh and Blake both did what they were supposed to do also. Again, everyone did their job.
Good shit.
Indeed.
They have actual depth - Brad lived the days of no benches whatsoever so he gets credit here - and tonight it showed. Kornet and Vonleh did work in this game. They aren't flashy and they each have limitations however both should be throwing some cold water on the idea that they need another backup big.
Tatum was magnificent in this game - as others have noted, it felt like he was not going to let the Cs lose.
Grant is playing himself off the Cs and into a big payday. Happy for him but will be sad to see him go.
Hauser looks to me like he is trying more difficult shots than wide-open catch and shoot, which is good. He is starting to take more 3Ps coming off the screen. He also took at least one heavily contested 3P with time left on the shot clock. He also had a couple of end of the shot clock prayers, including one from about 28 feet. I'm sure he's working on all of this and hopefully it will translate into his game.
Who is "they"? The other owners/coaches? Maybe, but I guess we'll see when other teams start doing it and what announcers are saying. I think the Take Foul rule changed because the NBA was getting hammered on broadcast after broadcast about how those fouls really hurt the game.
As for the actual play, I think coaches would be fine with the ball just lying there but the Cs are literally putting one or two "blockers" in front. Michael Malone wasn't thrilled about Gordon's flagrant foul as he ran to get the loose ball.
Had a different view and the NBA defense data isn't up. Thought Hauser was getting worked on D, which is why (along with not having a great shooting night) Mazz took him out for PP.
Wednesday's data is up and they have Bogie 2-3 against Hauser and Killian Hayes 2-2. Hauser did manage to stop Ivey the one shot Ivey put up against him, and Cunningham was 0-1 against him (again on Wednesday).
I thought Hauser was worse last night than Wednesday but that may be all of the minutes getting to him.
Interesting that the eyeball test is different for people. That data doesn't mean much in these sample sizes to me. If a guy credibly challenges 2 shots but they go in, that's not really what we're trying to measure here. Your observations certainly matter though.
Last night, I remember him contesting a shot baseline right (can't remember who), altering the shot and one other possession where Bey tried to back him down and run a spin move/hook on him unsuccessfully. In both cases, Sam stayed in the right position, anticipated, and bothered a shot. That's what I'm looking for.
The funny thing is all of us closely watched Kemba (post knee) and IT defend for years. So we all know the effects of the "hunted defender". Both were unable to stop guys from backing them down to shoot/pass over them. Both floated on D & were undisciplined which disfigured the 5-man unit. Every teammate scrambled to help them in ISO, which put the C's in rotation, & led to open step-in 3s for the opposition. The Celtic's desperately needed Kemba/IT POINTZ. Brad was hostage to playing both big minutes against the other team's starting 5. As a remedy, Brad didn't start IT against the Wizards in the playoffs to make sure IT played more minutes against the Wizards bench.
Sam Hauser is disciplined on D, and his length will make it more difficult to shoot/pass over. PLUS he won't be playing huge minutes against the opponent's starting 5.
Calculating Hauser's ISO numbers vs. Killian Hayes's 2 jump shots isn't going to tell us much. More pertinent is watching his defensive discipline, positioning, footwork, fouls, and how often he needs defensive help. If an opponent wants to spend most of the shot clock hunting Hauser we should welcome it. See what deficiencies he has on D and have him work on them over a long season.
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As a Hauser skeptic, I thought he looked fine on defense last night. Eye test is a weird thing though
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Detroit was barely running any offense, especially in the second half so grading D seems a bit much. It felt like the only Pistons plan was to get shots up ASAP after crossing center court.
Add in the fact that anyone on the Cs side saw their usage heavily impacted by the absences and the only things I would conclude from that game is a deeper, veteran Cs team won, Tatum is on one right now and the Pistons have a lot of growing up to do.
Add in the fact that anyone on the Cs side saw their usage heavily impacted by the absences and the only things I would conclude from that game is a deeper, veteran Cs team won, Tatum is on one right now and the Pistons have a lot of growing up to do.
Grant has gone from folks hating him a little over a season ago to a starting spot on a Championship contender. He could be their 4/Power Forward of the future. Good for him on betting on himself. Hope he continues to increase his value with solid play.
RFA is tough on guys that don't put up large PPG, so I still trust in Brad to figure this out. But don't mind giving kudos to a few around here (not me) that wanted to pay up for Grant and secure him for 4 more seasons.
Understand two games are small sample size. With respect to the bolded, to me, it's not enough simply to challenge shots. Defenders have to figure out a way to make the offensive player miss.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying Hauser's unplayable. I'm on record as agreeing that his defense is way better than PP's and Kemba and to me seems a bit better than someone comparable like Strus (although he'll never be Romeo Langford
). He certainly tries hard, has a good understanding of positioning and where his help his, and looks to understand what the offensive player is trying to do against him so I'm hopeful.I just thought he had a rough game last night. My memory said that he couldn't do anything with Bogdanovich for example. Will be interested in seeing the NBA.com matchup stats but they seem to be loading slowly these days.
The big difference is that you could not really hide a (sub) 6-ft PG on anyone except maybe the opponents other guard but that player is likely a good offensive player as well. Hauser matches up with his size with (excuse positional “numbers”) opponents 2, 3 or 4 so there are more opportunities to be creative. It also helps that he is such a good positional defender so the set doesn’t get rekd when he’s involved.
Things will be much different against playoff intensity, game planning and quality of opponent but for a regular season rotation guy on a team such as this where Hauser can fill a specific role……he’s more than fine.
Individual defensive stats alone are so noisy as it is…..single game or two-game individual defensive stats make me cringe.
This seems like one with a simple answer too - keep one person to guard the inbounder so that they -can't- set up the blockers when the defender is already behind the blockers.
Yes, the irony was that I think his offense kept him off the floor more in this one. He looks better playing with a full-strength team; his looks yesterday were a lot tougher.
I wasn't reading too much into what you were saying. FWIW, even the eyeball test can be subject to small sample size. Maybe you're right. What I saw with Bojan was that he was kinda taking everyone off the dribble, so Smart and then Tatum took turns shutting him down. He beat Grant badly once or twice that I remember too. He's a gifted scorer.Understand two games are small sample size. With respect to the bolded, to me, it's not enough simply to challenge shots. Defenders have to figure out a way to make the offensive player miss.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying Hauser's unplayable. I'm on record as agreeing that his defense is way better than PP's and Kemba and to me seems a bit better than someone comparable like Strus (although he'll never be Romeo Langford
I just thought he had a rough game last night. My memory said that he couldn't do anything with Bogdanovich for example. Will be interested in seeing the NBA.com matchup stats but they seem to be loading slowly these days.
Agreed on both counts. The latter is an astute observation. Defending this team was a lot easier yesterday without Brown, Brogdon, and Al. It shouldn't be that surprising that Hauser was shooting with mad hands in his face and had predictably lesser results. Good catch.
Also just horrific defense by Detroit. Why the hell did Bogdanovic feel the need to sprint towards the ball there. He was out of the play the moment the ball was picked up. And then of all people to leave open for a three, they leave Tatum? Terrible
Yeah, that play was exactly what I was thinking of that I don't want to see legislated out of the game. It's, essentially, another strategic decision at your disposal... either force defenses to leave one man back to guard the inbound, or let time tick off and risk losing time you need.
You want to run up the court and set up your half-court defense early? Screw you, come back and guard the inbound pass if you don't want the clock ticking off.
I imagine this is where a well-coached team could figure out both how to prevent it and how to exploit it.
(And whoever on the coaching staff came up with exploiting it -and- working out countermeasures, in case teams got wise to it and started rushing the ball, kudos.)
You want to run up the court and set up your half-court defense early? Screw you, come back and guard the inbound pass if you don't want the clock ticking off.
I imagine this is where a well-coached team could figure out both how to prevent it and how to exploit it.
(And whoever on the coaching staff came up with exploiting it -and- working out countermeasures, in case teams got wise to it and started rushing the ball, kudos.)
If i remember correctly there have been other teams and players that have done this trick before. Just not to the extent of the Celts.
You remember correctly. Here's Ty Lawson doing it in 2017.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgkLd00ZffQ&ab_channel=RolePlayersPoll
Schroder did it last season for Boston. It's been done over the years
Grant added a few new twists. Back-spin on the inbounds to make the ball stop, screening the ball/Smart & running a fast break off it. The dude has a high Bball IQ
Grant added a few new twists. Back-spin on the inbounds to make the ball stop, screening the ball/Smart & running a fast break off it. The dude has a high Bball IQ
The guy who he hit for NC State, Julius Hodge, also praised him later for doing whatever it took to win. It’s dirty out there sometimes. Who was it that Smart bridged last year in the playoffs? Shit happens in the heat of battle.
So if the offense has 3 guys back there....Smart and the 2 "blockers," shouldn't the defense run 2 guys at Smart going "around the edge," as they say in football? I really doubt the "blockers" are going to react quickly enough to start going straight ahead up court (i.e., now the only remaining way out) and if the defense has a 3rd guy in front of the "blockers," the offense is kind of stuck back there.
What the Celts are doing now is different than what Schroeder and Rondo used to do, though. Those guys did the "walk the dog" up the floor to set up the offense with a full 24 seconds on the shot clock when they got to half court, or on last-two-minute plays to extend the game by avoiding starting the game clock. I don't recall them letting the ball sit in the back court to intentionally run time off the game clock with a lead.
I like it, and don't see the need for a rule change.
I like it, and don't see the need for a rule change.
ultimately the Pistons gave a red-hot Tatum a wide-open, step-in 3 which is really bad defense on its own
The play in question where Grant was the only blocker to Smart "walking the dog" and turned it into a fast break is probably something Smart/Grant came up with on their own. This just highlights the high-level BB IQ that Smart/Grant (or CJM if he designed it) own.
A well-coached defense can easily thwart the "walking the dog" clock-burn by being disciplined late in games when they are down to the Celtics. One defender just needs to show a hair of pressure on the inbounds and then sprint back. If they don't, I'd expect Marcus/Grant/Celtics to exploit the clock-burn.
In a perverse way (because I don't actually want to see it happen), I'm waiting for a defense-savant coach to come up with a way to blow it up once and steal two for his team.
If a team tries it on Boston, I could see cobra-Marcus blow it up with one of his patented dives for a ball on the floor...the rest of the league doesn't have a Marcus Smart
Grant could also be called for a moving screen if he isn't set, the Refs seem to be calling moving screens a lot this season.
Anyways it will probably go away, against the better teams, since it's so easy to stop from commencing.