SOSH Running Dogs

Kremlin Watcher

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I don't run a lot of barefoot in training - the road surfaces in my town are just too rough. I race barefoot because racing courses are usually pretty smooth and it saves time in transition. The thing about running barefoot is that the skin on your feet doesn't really ever get used to it. Running far barefoot always involves some discomfort; staying consistent at distance is a mental skill more than anything. I just accept that there will be some discomfort, associate with the sensation closely, and focus on keeping my cadence high. Also, keep in mind that the more callused your feet are, the worse it is for barefoot. Calluses hamper barefoot running because they often delaminate from the softer subcutaneous tissue and cause blisters. The less callused your feet are, the fewer blisters you get. But there's nothing you can do about the abrasion of a rough road surface - you just get used to the feeling and push through it. You also have to be careful of pebbles - stepping full force on a pebble is extremely painful. So I pay a lot of attention to the surface, which helps me focus on the running and tune out distractions.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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Quick question regarding in-race nutrition:

I'm running an 8-10K obstacle race next month and want to insure during the estimated 3+ hours of activity that I get something during the race to keep me going.

My pre-race meal/nutrition is set but do any of you recommend any specific in-race gels/bars/misc energy sources that aren't just sugar rushes?

Edit: 8-10K + 20+ obstacles, to clarify.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Three hours is a lot of effort and you will need some outside nutrition. I would recommend a maltodextrin-based and electrolyte-replacement supplement - your body absorbs complex carbohydrates like maltodextrin much more efficiently than other sugars. So avoid crap like Gatorade and Powerade. I would use something by one of the following supplement companies: Hammer Nutrition (hammernutrition.com); GU (guenegry.com); Clif (clifbar.com); or Generation Ucan (generationucan.com). These are all science-based nutrition supplement companies and their stuff is really good. Which one you choose and which form (gels, bars, chews, liquids, whatever) depends on personal preference, but the end result of getting glycogen efficiently will be pretty much the same for all of them.

Good luck in your race. Sounds challenging.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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Three hours is a lot of effort and you will need some outside nutrition. I would recommend a maltodextrin-based and electrolyte-replacement supplement - your body absorbs complex carbohydrates like maltodextrin much more efficiently than other sugars. So avoid crap like Gatorade and Powerade. I would use something by one of the following supplement companies: Hammer Nutrition (hammernutrition.com); GU (guenegry.com); Clif (clifbar.com); or Generation Ucan (generationucan.com). These are all science-based nutrition supplement companies and their stuff is really good. Which one you choose and which form (gels, bars, chews, liquids, whatever) depends on personal preference, but the end result of getting glycogen efficiently will be pretty much the same for all of them.

Good luck in your race. Sounds challenging.
Thanks for the science-based specifics. This will help when at the store to filter/target exactly what I'm looking for. As for what form, as long as it's portable, so gels or chews sounds like the best way. Taste means absolutely nothing to me.

The race is a Super Spartan. Last June I did the Sprint, which was 4 miles of trails/hills and about 15-18 obstacles. This an estimated double the distance. At the end of the June race I felt my body start to protest a bit, so figured I'd need additional nutrition.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Just remain aware that if you go with the gel/chews option that you'll need additional water as these products are like dried fruit - they soak up moisture in the gut and you need to drink a bit more H20 to make up for that.

I would no doubt kill myself on one of those courses. Tear it up and let us know how it goes.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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Just remain aware that if you go with the gel/chews option that you'll need additional water as these products are like dried fruit - they soak up moisture in the gut and you need to drink a bit more H20 to make up for that.
Ah, thanks for the heads-up. So maybe I'll have to consider running with a utility pack of some sort to store edibles. There'll be water stations, but not so one should plan for them during the race.
 

Jerrygarciaparra

My kid has superpowers
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Jul 31, 2001
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I'm gearing up for my second marathon on Portland Maine on September 30.

http://www.mainemarathon.com/

I fell a little short of my goal last time, but this time I'm confident I can break 4 hours.

I've increased my weekly mileage and added speedwork on the high school track on morning each week.

This morning I ran a very hilly 20 miles in 3:02.
 

Jerrygarciaparra

My kid has superpowers
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Jul 31, 2001
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My last long run before the marathon. 19 miles in 2:44

Those long distances really show me what I need to improve : my leg strength.

After 19 to 20 miles I feel fine energy-wise, and cardio-wise. But my legs are in serious pain. I'd hate to have to join a gym just to do leg exercises.
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
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Ran the the MARSOC heartbreak ridge half marathon at Camp Pendleton, San Diego, in a personal worst 1:57:06. It was hot, and the course is extremely hilly. I was on the 1:50 goal pace until about mile 10, where I hit a big hill and basically melted. That was disappointing.

However, 9 days later (yesterday) I made it up Mt Whitney from the portal in just under 8 hours. That was quite awesome, can't say enough good things about that experience.
 

Mooch

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Jul 15, 2005
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Just got word from Dana Farber that I'm in for the DFMC at the Boston Marathon next year. Running in honor of my mom, who died of ovarian cancer this past February. Really excited to finally run Boston.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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That's awesome Mooch. DFMC absolutely rocks. Start your fundraising early and be sure to use all of the resources they make available for you. If get a chance, train with them. It's a fantastic experience.
 

Traut

lost his degree
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My last long run before the marathon. 19 miles in 2:44

Those long distances really show me what I need to improve : my leg strength.

After 19 to 20 miles I feel fine energy-wise, and cardio-wise. But my legs are in serious pain. I'd hate to have to join a gym just to do leg exercises.
Muscle never hurts but your culprit may be diet. Consider eating more during your run. That pain you feel could be caused by your muscles losing glycogen. Whether or not you go Paleo, check out Paleo for Athletes. The advice on nutrition before, during, and after endurance workouts has made all of the difference for me. I did 20 yesterday. Ran hard. No pain. No stiffness today.
 

Traut

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I am really dumb when it come to eating on the run : I usually just bring a granola bar with me and eat it around Mile 18 or so.
Yes, you are. Those runs are too far not to fuel. I gu 15 before and then once every 5 miles. It makes a huge difference,
 

TallerThanPedroia

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Jul 19, 2005
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Congrats, Mooch!

So registration for 2013 isn't over yet, but from what I can tell, there might not be any cutoff below the new BQ times. For 2012 it was BQ - 1:14. It would make sense that, given that the 2013 times are all five minutes faster, that there would be no further de facto cutoff but it's nice to see, especially when I feel like I'm within a year of BQing.
 

TallerThanPedroia

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What's everyone got coming up? I've got the BAA Half on Sunday and then Paddy's 3m the Sunday after that.

Oh, and it looks like the registration for Boston is open ended at this point, so a BQ was enough to get in, and people doing fall marathons might get in, too.

Of course, even if it plays the same way next year, my getting a BQ at Baystate will probably still be too late to get me into the 2014 marathon.
 

bosoxgrl

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Just got word from Dana Farber that I'm in for the DFMC at the Boston Marathon next year. Running in honor of my mom, who died of ovarian cancer this past February. Really excited to finally run Boston.
Congrats! I ran for them last year, it was an amazing experience not only with the race, but with DF itself.
 

bosoxgrl

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What's everyone got coming up? I've got the BAA Half on Sunday and then Paddy's 3m the Sunday after that.

Oh, and it looks like the registration for Boston is open ended at this point, so a BQ was enough to get in, and people doing fall marathons might get in, too.

Of course, even if it plays the same way next year, my getting a BQ at Baystate will probably still be too late to get me into the 2014 marathon.
I got a full fall schedule coming up.

Crawlin Crab Half - Oct 7
Wicked 10K - Oct 27
CNU Homecoming Half - Nov 3
Richmond Half - Nov 10
Christmastown 8K - Dec 2
Surf N Santa 10 miler - Dec 8

Probably throw at least 2 or 3 5K's in there somewhere.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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The big one at the end of November - Ironman Cozumel. Having a fantastic training program so far; looking forward to a really big day on November 25. In the most intense part of the training right now. Some very big days ahead, but really enjoying it. Then I am going to sleep for all of December.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Ran 20 today. Decent pace. Shit is getting real. 80 miles on the bike tomorrow followed by a 45-minute run. Then two forced days off due to travel. Next week's big day will be a 100-mile ride followed by a 5-7 mile hard run. Next big run of 22 in ten days. A lot of hard swimming next week as well. God damn this is hard. But man am I enjoying it.
 

Hildy

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Running the Leaf Peeper 5K in Waterbury VT today; first race since I finished up chemo/raditation. Really not in the shape I would like to be, but then again its a 5K. I'm guessing from JGP's posts above he will not be there, however....
Edit--that was fun! About a minute slower than last year, but I ain't complaining. My son the human abacus informs me I came in number 229. My brother did the half marathon portion of events and came in at 1:58.19, very pleased with that.
Plus he made pork chili verde for the Patriots game today, so no complaints what so evah!
 

octoberaroma

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Jul 14, 2005
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Catch the Ironman World Championship today from Kona, Hawaii.
There's a livestream: http://kona.ironman.com/

Years ago I use to volunteer for this event. It's an incredible race to eyewitness.
What always impressed me most is just how far everyday amateur athletes will push themselves.
 

Traut

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Busted out a 3:52:57 marathon this morning. Three minutes short of besting my 2010 Vermont City time by an hour. A pr by 44 minutes. Hartford puts on a fantastic marathon.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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[quote name='Trautwein's Degree' timestamp='1350154303' post='4376614']
Busted out a 3:52:57 marathon this morning. Three minutes short of my 2010 Vermont City time. A pr by 44 minutes. Hartford puts on a fantastic marathon.
[/quote]
That is a hell of a run Traut - fantastic job! Pulling 44 minutes out of a marathon is a hell of a lot of progress. Awesome.
 

knuck

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This thread got me to start running about 2 years ago. In that time I've done two halfs, a 20 miler and too many 5ks to count. Today I got another first, completed the Baltimore marathon in 4:52:53. Everything went great till mile 24 when I hit the wall. It was my first experience hitting it, and I just wanted to cry. But I am proud to say I kept running (no matter how slow it was). I got better with about a .5 mile to go and the sense of accomplishment is amazing, now all the miles and Saturday mornings I gave up to get this done.

I can now call myself a marathoner and say, when is the next one? :)
 

Traut

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This thread got me to start running about 2 years ago. In that time I've done two halfs, a 20 miler and too many 5ks to count. Today I got another first, completed the Baltimore marathon in 4:52:53. Everything went great till mile 24 when I hit the wall. It was my first experience hitting it, and I just wanted to cry. But I am proud to say I kept running (no matter how slow it was). I got better with about a .5 mile to go and the sense of accomplishment is amazing, now all the miles and Saturday mornings I gave up to get this done.

I can now call myself a marathoner and say, when is the next one? :)
Congrats, Knuck. Finishing your first, or really any, marathon is a great accomplishment. It is such a hard distance. Rest up. You've earned it.
 

bosoxsue

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[quote name='Trautwein's Degree' timestamp='1350154303' post='4376614']
Busted out a 3:52:57 marathon this morning. Three minutes short of besting my 2010 Vermont City time by an hour. A pr by 44 minutes. Hartford puts on a fantastic marathon.
[/quote]
Well done! I was going to try for this year, but got my training sidetracked by youth soccer and work. I decided to take it easy and do a 5-miler in Mystic next month instead. Kudos to you on such a great job in what looked to be a very full field.

And you, too, Knuck -- awesome! Baltimore seems like it would be a fun, scenic run.
 

Traut

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Proud of my splits:
1:55 for the first 13.1
1:57 for the second 13.1

Taken alone, these would be my second and third fastest half marathon times albeit 10 and 12 minutes off my pr. I ran without a watch. This has made all the difference for me. Decided to listen to Fris and just listen to my body.
 

TallerThanPedroia

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Jul 19, 2005
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This thread got me to start running about 2 years ago. In that time I've done two halfs, a 20 miler and too many 5ks to count. Today I got another first, completed the Baltimore marathon in 4:52:53. Everything went great till mile 24 when I hit the wall. It was my first experience hitting it, and I just wanted to cry. But I am proud to say I kept running (no matter how slow it was). I got better with about a .5 mile to go and the sense of accomplishment is amazing, now all the miles and Saturday mornings I gave up to get this done.

I can now call myself a marathoner and say, when is the next one? :)
Congratulations! Great job not stopping (the true secret to distance running - Don't Stop!). You're now one of the few people who know how hard a marathon really is.
 

Traut

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Fantastic job, T. You obliterated the four-hour mark (and now you're officially faster than me!). And great split!
I think I'm going to follow your plan for 2013 and focus on getting faster over shorter distances. Namely, trying to break 1:30 in a half marathon. This means no marathon for me in 2013 and perhaps beyond. I'm cool with that. The distance is brutal. It'll be hard to really improve my speed while training for a marathon. Once I get faster, I'll try and ramp up the mileage and shoot for a Boston Qualifying time. That goal is years and lots of hard work away. But I never thought I'd be where I am today when I started running in 2009.
 

TallerThanPedroia

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Speaking of my plan... I have no idea what the hell to do.

2011 BAA Half: 1:41:38
2012 Run to Remember: 1:35:42
2012 BAA Half: 1:32:38

BQ pace is 3:05, half of which is 1:32:30. I really would have liked those last eight seconds, just for my mental state. Though really, I would have liked to have broken 1:30.

Still, it seems like I'm ready to go for the BQ at the 2013 Baystate Marathon next October. The BAA Half is hard, after all, and it won't surprise me to throw down a bigger improvement at the 2013 Run to Remember.

But I really don't have a plan. I ran a 3 mile race yesterday (19:15, another PR) despite my calves still being sore from BAA last weekend. Once I feel better again, I'm just going to try and ramp up my mileage over the winter and see how it goes, and use the Run to Remember as a check-in. Which is basically what I'd do anyway.

I just wish I had a little more of a cushion. I'd almost rather wait a whole extra year than to go for a BQ and miss it by 15 seconds, with all my friends and family watching and having it all built up in my head (and then having to spend a month recovering from the race, or worse, injuring myself trying to squeeze it out). In fact, that's part of why I'm locked into Baystate: it's local so people can come support me and I won't have to travel far, along with its being one of only two marathons I've actually run (the other is Phoenix, which isn't an option) and being a pretty fast course. But getting a BQ in 2013 there will only get me into the 2015 Boston Marathon.

So if I'm more like 18 months from BQ'ing, instead of 12 months, then maybe I should just find a 2014 marathon to qualify with anyway. Hyannis or New Hampshire.

BQers, what say you? Am I within 12 months?
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Yeah, you're within 12 months of a BQ. I'd be happy to give you some specific coaching advice on how to get faster over the marathon distance. I have taken my pace down from about 9:00 to about 8:00 over long distances, and my 5k pace is about 7:15. I couldn't even sprint that fast a couple of years ago. Took me a while, but it's just a combination of hard and smart training done to specific periodization protocols. You also need to do some very detailed race planning for the big day, nutrition work throughout the training year, as well as mental skills training. It's complex but doable as long as you have both a goal and a plan.

My training is really beating me down. I tried to go long today but blew up at 15 1/2. Just too much fatigue built up over the last year of really hard training - I think I'm overtrained. Need to take a couple days off and come back strong this weekend with a big ride and run double.

And I'm with you Traut on running naked - I put my Garmin on the shelf about 10 months ago and now just run according to feel. Much more effective over the long term and my speed gains have been really significant.
 

TallerThanPedroia

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Heh, yeah, see the original goal was to get faster over a long timeframe and really give myself a big cushion so that I wouldn't have to go all hardcore with nutrition and mental toughness and, you know, trying hard B)

But now I'm getting impatient. But that makes me nervous, because I'm worried about injuring myself again, which is what screwed up the leisurely plan in the first place! I lost 2+ years of prime training time because I started actively trying to get faster (completely incorrectly and stupidly, naturally).

First goal is just to get up to 40 MPW and see what's what.
 

right_arm_of_God

New Member
Mar 5, 2008
131
San Diego
Do any of the pros have thoughts about resuming training after an injury? I’m coming back from moderatly severe knee problems, both knees.

Right now both knees feel better than they have in 9 months. I want to run a half marathon in January, so I thought I’d do higher intensity lower mileage workouts until 12 weeks before the race. Specifically use an 8 week 10K program and then switch to half marathon oriented training for the 2 months before the race. The goal being to improve fitness but limit miles.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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TTP:

I think you could be approaching it in a better way. If all you do is volume, as in 40 mow, you are not maximizing the fitness benefit. You should do some research on the following topics:

- periodization and planning. You should divide your training year into three or four distinctly different periods, each with a separate focus. For example, months 1-3 focus on building the base and doing some strength training. Then months 4-6 build your speed with plyometrics in the gym and a lot of speed work, including track workouts, tempo runs, hard hill runs, fartleks, etc. Then months 6-9 you take that speed and stretch it out into speed endurance with a consistent long runs punctuated with shorter, high-tempo stuff. Then months 9-12 you train up your race-specific skills such as your 20-24 milers on courses similar to what you will see at Bay State. By breaking your training year up, you can plan more effectively and address specific limiters, as well as alleviate some of the tedium of simply going on long runs. It is also a good way to avoid injury - I do it this way and have managed to avoid serious injury, a major accomplishment for me.

- sports-specific nutrition. I am really amazed by the degree to which a sports-specific nutrition plan can impact the quality of your training. An eating plan specifically tailored to help you recover better, store and use glycogen more efficiently, and become more metabolically efficient is pretty simple to implement and you'll find that your fitness will improve better.

- mental skills training. At some point, and I think you are past this point judging by your times, you become physically able to reach your goal. I am physically capable of running a 3:30 marathon if properly fueled and rested. But that physical skill can be undermined if your mind isn't ready for the extreme physical discomfort that accompanies running really, really hard for 26 miles. Specific mental exercises to help you overcome the urge to slow down or stop and capitulate to the discomfort are what get you through the last miles of a really hard marathon run.

Another thing that's important to remember when you're going for a really ambitious goal, especially at these distances, is that you have to buy into your training plan. You have to believe that it is going to train you sufficiently well to get your result. I sense from your posts that you don't fully buy into that yet. That's dangerous because the most common result of not having a lot of faith in your training plan is simply to train harder, which usually results in overtraining and/or injury. Make your plan, buy into it, and execute it.
 

Kremlin Watcher

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Do any of the pros have thoughts about resuming training after an injury? I’m coming back from moderatly severe knee problems, both knees.

Right now both knees feel better than they have in 9 months. I want to run a half marathon in January, so I thought I’d do higher intensity lower mileage workouts until 12 weeks before the race. Specifically use an 8 week 10K program and then switch to half marathon oriented training for the 2 months before the race. The goal being to improve fitness but limit miles.
Well, the first piece of advice is to ask your orthopedist about it. If he/she says it's OK to resume running, then the second piece of advice is to take it slowly and listen to your body. so might want to have your gait analyzed to understand if the way you run contributes to the knee problems. There are ways to run that take a lot of the pressure off the knees. But in general if you want to start again but need to ramp up slowly, then yes, a program of higher-intensity but lower-mileage runs for some period of time can be pretty effective in gaining fitness. But at some point you will need the base volume of longer and longer runs. Two months of longer running should be enough to get you to the finish line if the quality of the miles is high.
 

right_arm_of_God

New Member
Mar 5, 2008
131
San Diego
Thank you. I have been “cleared” to run again by my doctors. I’ve been confined to either walking or bike for the past 3 months...

Are you prescient? After my first knee blew up I changed my stride unnaturally and one way or another my pelvis became tweaked resulting in one leg “appearing” to be longer than the other. That blew up my other knee... I should have stopped running when I was first hurt.

Anyway after physical therapy and a number of exotic (weird) stretches I am stuck with forever I am back to not being hurt.

I’m not a 10K guy at all, more of a plodder, so I’ll have no choice but to start out slow.