2019 Pats: Roster Projection 2.0

Harry Hooper

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Zolak just said on the game broadcast that he now thinks Hoyer will be cut. Paul Perillo agreed.

With Gunner hors de combat, BB ordered Myers to fair catch a late punt, clearly protecting the asset.
 
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Super Nomario

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Zolak just said on the game broadcast that he now thinks Hoyer will be cut. Paul Perillo agreed.
I think Stidham getting the initial nod is probably a sign that they want to give him a shot to earn the #2 job. I guess it could be they want him to get reps now that he won't get as the #3 in the regular season. I'm guessing we see a lot of Stidham in Week 4, maybe wire-to-wire. That's what they did with Hoyer and Garoppolo in their rookie seasons before making them the #2 (in both cases, at least somewhat surprisingly).

Worth noting: giving Stidham the shot to win the #2 job is not the same as giving him the #2 job. There have been ups and downs.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I think Stidham getting the initial nod is probably a sign that they want to give him a shot to earn the #2 job. I guess it could be they want him to get reps now that he won't get as the #3 in the regular season. I'm guessing we see a lot of Stidham in Week 4, maybe wire-to-wire. That's what they did with Hoyer and Garoppolo in their rookie seasons before making them the #2 (in both cases, at least somewhat surprisingly).

Worth noting: giving Stidham the shot to win the #2 job is not the same as giving him the #2 job. There have been ups and downs.
This makes sense.

And they know what they have in Hoyer, so giving him more game snaps that could go to Stidham won’t do much good.
 

Harry Hooper

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Latest from Bedard at BSJ: "right now, it feels like Stidham will be the sole backup."
 

Saints Rest

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Torn quad for King. Out for year. That sucks.
One of those guys who I think most of us don't really appreciate.

On the thread topic, this certainly opens up a roster spot for one of the bubble guys, and not necessarily a ST-only guy. With Slater, Ebner, Brooks, and Bolden, they have a lot of ST vets. This extra spot may mean an extra OL or an extra WR. Who knows!
 
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Sorry to hear that, but...next man up. Wouldn’t mind seeing a guy like Calvin Munson make the squad, and he has more versatility than King.

Really excited about the DL Cowart. Makes a splash play every game. Good to see a day 3 flyer pay off.

I’m interested if Gunner makes the 53 over a player like Berrios, despite being far less polished to this point. It wouldn’t shock me if BB saw this as worth the growing pains of his inexperience at WR, not just bc his punt return ability looks legit (and not so raw), but also as a sort of...”culture” add. Clearly, his teammates love him, but that’s not enough, it’s more his toughness, determination, hustle, hard work and presence on the field...which stands in contrast a bit to Berrios, the presumptive leader for that spot, who has also worked hard, of course, but whose availability is more in question, and who has been a little disappointing considering he may have been expected to come in, following his IR red-shirt year, and seize the opportunity. In the end, Gunner, while not yet as natural/experienced a pass-catcher, still has skills in that area and room to grow. Think this would be a good Patriot Way-type message while still being rooted in a legit “football decision.”

Wonder if we could see Pennel get the veteran courtesy sliiiightly early release. (Phrasing. Sorry, Mr. Kraft.)
 

Super Nomario

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Kyed said the timing of Thomas coming off PUP means, to him, he's making team.

https://nesn.com/2019/08/patriots-mailbag-why-demaryius-thomas-is-likely-to-make-53-man-roster/
I respect Kyed, but I think people read way too much into this sort of thing. Maybe Thomas is just healthy enough to pass his physical now and he wasn't before. There doesn't have to be some nth-dimensional chess aspect to the timing.

One of those guys who I think most of us don't really appreciate.

On the thread topic, this certainly opens up a roster spot for one of the bubble guys, and not necessarily a ST-only guy. With Slater, Ebner, Brooks, and Bolden, they have a lot of ST vets. This extra spot may mean an extra OL or an extra WR. Who knows!
Dawson led the team in ST snaps last night, FWIW. I think this puts Crossen in good shape too; he's developing into a really good ST player, even if I have questions about his coverage ability.
 

j44thor

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I respect Kyed, but I think people read way too much into this sort of thing. Maybe Thomas is just healthy enough to pass his physical now and he wasn't before. There doesn't have to be some nth-dimensional chess aspect to the timing.
I actually think it is more likely he gets cut now given he only has 150K in dead $$ and a 1.5M roster bonus.
My guess is he was Gordon insurance since they are both big outside receivers who don't offer anything on ST. Don't think you have room for both of them on the team. Probably a cut and bring back week 2 candidate.
 

bakahump

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I know the idea was suggested that we cut hoyer and bring him back as a coach.

Not counting the financial implications (which I think were a minor +) what would that mean?
For instance could he still QB the Scout team (A thing he has been lauded for)?

"Scout Team coach Brian Hoyer"

Just wondering if there are any weird NFL rules about who can "Particpate" in practice. (IE "Only desiganted roster players may participate.." etc etc) If not then why not have 5 "Coaching assistants" Making 50-75k as a taxi squad for your practice squad?
 

RedOctober3829

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I think last night solidified to me that they need to carry 3 QBs. I really like Stidham, but ball security is an issue with him. There's been about 4-5 throws the last 2 games that should have been picked off but weren't plus the fumbles. If Brady got hurt, I would not feel that Stidham could handle the job quite yet. It's worth keeping Hoyer.
 

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I think last night solidified to me that they need to carry 3 QBs. I really like Stidham, but ball security is an issue with him. There's been about 4-5 throws the last 2 games that should have been picked off but weren't plus the fumbles. If Brady got hurt, I would not feel that Stidham could handle the job quite yet. It's worth keeping Hoyer.
Maybe. Also need to factor in the odds that Hoyer is still available even if you cut him, that Brady does get hurt, the marginal improvement to Stidham of being a #2 over #3 all year, the marginal improvement of that 53rd person over a 3rd QB, and how much you'd rely on Stidham to make plays even if he was QB. This team has a great defense, a great running game, and the ability to run a lot of short routes that take the pressure off the QB to make plays consistently.
 

Reggie's Racquet

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I know the idea was suggested that we cut hoyer and bring him back as a coach.

Not counting the financial implications (which I think were a minor +) what would that mean?
For instance could he still QB the Scout team (A thing he has been lauded for)?

"Scout Team coach Brian Hoyer"

Just wondering if there are any weird NFL rules about who can "Particpate" in practice. (IE "Only desiganted roster players may participate.." etc etc) If not then why not have 5 "Coaching assistants" Making 50-75k as a taxi squad for your practice squad?
Yes. I made that suggestion several days ago but like you I do not understand if it is possible under NFL rules. Hope some of the more knowledgeable folks on this board can enlighten us as I do think it would be an interesting move and would save a roster spot.
 

bakahump

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I think we often assume "Brady Hurt 16 Games". Which Sure happens :confused:. But Is Hoyer to start 2 games While Brady recovers from a high Ankle sprain worth losing another player at another postion? Is 4 games? 6? Over 6 games what would Hoyer go 4-2? What would Stidham go? 3-3?2-4?
There is certainly a tipping point and I am not saying I want Hoyer to be cut (and become a coach....I was more curious about the nuts and bolts of that). But I think we need to be realistic about what keeping him means if an injury to Brady Happens. If its a season ender....Hoyer isnt winning us a SB. Could we win a round? Maybe. Make it to the AFC Championship. I suppose...with some luck and an amazing team performance. But a make and win a SB? Probably not.
Are we in the business of making it to the 2nd round? Or do we want to maximize the chance to win a SB by keeping a LB or DL that can help us more then Hoyer.

So we need to ask Whats the odds Brady Gets hurt.
Whats the odds its insignificant (3 games)
Whats the odds it could affect seeding/playoffs (6-8 games)
Whats the odds its a season ender (All remaining games + Playoffs)

What do those options really mean to a Playoff run with a real chance at a SB (not just a token playoff run).

FInally we can debate of a 5 LB or a extra OT is a better roster choice then the Hoyer.

But to just say (paraphrasing) "Hoyer would be way better the Stidham and could keep us in contention for a SB" without context is disingenuous.
 

Gash Prex

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Hoyer is fine - but lets not pretend he doesn’t throw interceptions or turn the ball over. He is a fine backup for a game or two, but the reality is that he is not anything more than a placeholder. The delta between him and Stidham is too small for a backup QB position that I cannot see keeping Hoyer.
 

BigSoxFan

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Hoyer is fine - but lets not pretend he doesn’t throw interceptions or turn the ball over
I mean, his last playoff game in 2015 with Houston was one of the worst QB performances I had ever seen.

4 INTs and like 140 yards passing. I’m fine with whatever BB decides here but I’m not all warm and fuzzy with him in there at all. I think BB and Josh would be able to protect Stidham in a game similar to Jacoby a few years ago. And his upside is greater, IMO.
 

5dice

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I mean, his last playoff game in 2015 with Houston was one of the worst QB performances I had ever seen.

4 INTs and like 140 yards passing. I’m fine with whatever BB decides here but I’m not all warm and fuzzy with him in there at all. I think BB and Josh would be able to protect Stidham in a game similar to Jacoby a few years ago. And his upside is greater, IMO.
All correct. Ultra conservative game plan would be the case regardless of which one of them it is. Hope Hoyer still gets to go on the Kentucky Derby trip and wear funny hats after he is gone.
 

Super Nomario

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My takeaways from last night:
  • Harmon is safe. If they were thinking about cutting him to go with Brooks as primary backup, last night was a perfect opportunity to give Brooks the start alongside McCourty. They didn't.
  • Izzo has a real shot at the roster. A lot of reps with Brady, a nice catch. No LaCosse last night, but they won't have Watson the first four weeks either.
  • Cowart with early reps and another splash play. I think he's better than 50/50 to make the squad.
  • King's injury looked bad, and if Ebner / Brooks / Bolden weren't locks before, they are now.
  • Crossen continues to stand out on ST and I think he's safe, too.
  • Skipper keeps getting the LT snaps behind Wynn so he's definitely got the inside track on that swing tackle gig
  • Pennel looks like the Jonathan Fanene award winner for "signing that looks perfect on paper but just doesn't work out for some reason." Did he get any early PT last night? Shelton clearly ahead
  • Also thought it was interesting that Elandon Roberts started over Bentley in base. I think they both make the squad.
  • Duke Dawson led the team in ST snaps. They're giving him every chance
  • We definitely saw a lot of Collins and Van Noy playing up on the line and limited duty from the more traditional edge OLBs (Winovich, 11 snaps; Simon, 6), though some of that might have been Calhoun, Rivers, and Harris all unavailable
  • Not going to read too much into early playing time for Meyers and Winovich or Oszlewski getting almost all the punt return reps given the injuries at those positions

Oh and the D looks stacked
 

Saints Rest

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I know the idea was suggested that we cut hoyer and bring him back as a coach.

Not counting the financial implications (which I think were a minor +) what would that mean?
For instance could he still QB the Scout team (A thing he has been lauded for)?

"Scout Team coach Brian Hoyer"

Just wondering if there are any weird NFL rules about who can "Particpate" in practice. (IE "Only desiganted roster players may participate.." etc etc) If not then why not have 5 "Coaching assistants" Making 50-75k as a taxi squad for your practice squad?
I seem to recall articles about how Nick Caserio would often act as an additional QB during drills. How is that different from what you are describing? I have no idea.

How is this different from having players in for tryouts? Is there a limit as to how many days a player can "tryout"? Again, no idea here. My guess is that all concerned figure this idea at least becomes self-policing as no player would want to be subject to possible injury with no contractual protection (and there may be some similar concern from the team side, vis a vis liability).

This seems like exactly the sort of loophole that the Pats would exploit, completely within the letter of the law, only to have the rest of the NFL and pundits freak out about how the "Pats are cheating again!>!>!>!"
 

Super Nomario

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I seem to recall articles about how Nick Caserio would often act as an additional QB during drills. How is that different from what you are describing? I have no idea.

How is this different from having players in for tryouts? Is there a limit as to how many days a player can "tryout"? Again, no idea here. My guess is that all concerned figure this idea at least becomes self-policing as no player would want to be subject to possible injury with no contractual protection (and there may be some similar concern from the team side, vis a vis liability).

This seems like exactly the sort of loophole that the Pats would exploit, completely within the letter of the law, only to have the rest of the NFL and pundits freak out about how the "Pats are cheating again!>!>!>!"
I don't think this is an issue. Players aren't going to want to take fake coaching jobs to practice play because a) they want to actually play and b) coaches get paid way less than players unless they're at the coordinator level.
 

Saints Rest

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I don't think this is an issue. Players aren't going to want to take fake coaching jobs to practice play because a) they want to actually play and b) coaches get paid way less than players unless they're at the coordinator level.
Good point and one I think I myself made somewhere in the last few days. Getting old sucks.
 

bakahump

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I hear ya...and Well its probably why I am not a world class athlete , well that and the talent.....
But I could see worse ways of "Staying in the game" then making 50k, being named "Coaching Assistants', and essentially being guy 11-15 on pseudo practice squad so that your coaching duties are being the scout team for the NE Patriots. As long as there was an "out" in my coaching contract that allowed me to leave for ( the slight possibility you guys mention) a Honest to god Roster spot somewhere else......why wouldnt I take an offer like above.

Again assuming all this is Legal.....which seems unlikely...else why wouldnt teams do it. "Coaches" arent on the cap...and as far as I know you could have as man as you want.
I am open to the argument that the benefit isnt worth the 250-300k it would cost.
 
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Jed Zeppelin

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Oh and the D looks stacked
You know things are looking pretty good when you talk about the last cuts in the secondary and the guys in question include a 2nd year 2nd round pick and a potential core STer who spent time in the AFCCG shadowing Tyreek Hill.
 

Super Nomario

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You know things are looking pretty good when you talk about the last cuts in the secondary and the guys in question include a 2nd year 2nd round pick and a potential core STer who spent time in the AFCCG shadowing Tyreek Hill.
Yeah, if Dawson goes people will crap on BB for another second-round CB miss but I'll view it more through the lens of getting passed by Jackson, Williams, and Crossen. I'm also thinking things like, "man, tough to evaluate these defensive guys on so few snaps." Panthers only had seven first downs last night, Pats D only played 45 snaps total - same number they had against the Lions in the opener.

Unrelatedly, it was really fun to have Sony Michel back last night. I thought he looked great, even though the box score line is meh.
 

Red Averages

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Frankly the team is transitioning in a way that it should with a 42 year old QB, emphasizing D and a running game, it just so happens that the QB still has a lot of talent to offer.
 

tims4wins

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Unrelatedly, it was really fun to have Sony Michel back last night. I thought he looked great, even though the box score line is meh.
He had an 8 yarder called back by a penalty they never showed a replay on, and a 30 yarder called back on the very questionable Meyers holding call that really didn't affect the play. 10 for 36 could have easily been 12 for 74.
 

DJnVa

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He had an 8 yarder called back by a penalty they never showed a replay on, and a 30 yarder called back on the very questionable Meyers holding call that really didn't affect the play. 10 for 36 could have easily been 12 for 74.
And didn't he have some carries from in close to the goal line as well? (Not that not scoring on them is a good thing, but 2 plunges into the line knock that average down as well)
 

tims4wins

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And didn't he have some carries from in close to the goal line as well? (Not that not scoring on them is a good thing, but 2 plunges into the line knock that average down as well)
He had a 3rd and 1 in the middle of the field where he gained 3 yards (so clearly a successful play), then 1st and goal from the 4 he gained 3 yards (I'd call that a successful run), then a stuff for no gain on 2nd and goal from the 1. So 3 carries for 6 yards in more tight yardage situations, 2 for 3 success rate.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I hear ya...and Well its probably why I am not a world class athlete , well that and the talent.....
But I could see worse ways of "Staying in the game" then making 50k, being named "Coaching Assistants', and essentially being guy 11-15 on pseudo practice squad so that your coaching duties are being the scout team for the NE Patriots. As long as there was an "out" in my coaching contract that allowed me to leave for ( the slight possibility you guys mention) a Honest to god Roster spot somewhere else......why wouldnt I take an offer like above.

Again assuming all this is Legal.....which seems unlikely...else why wouldnt teams do it. "Coaches" arent on the cap...and as far as I know you could have as man as you want.
I am open to the argument that the benefit isnt worth the 250-300k it would cost.
Cost Hoyer? Well, vet minimum for his tenure is $915K, so I'm guessing he'd rather sign on with someone and hold a clipboard.

Way too much is being made of the scout team thing. Backups are always cited as playing the role of an opposing QB, he didn't reinvent the wheel.