2019 Rockets: China Hates Us

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Why would people who didn’t root for LeBron quit the NBA over him?

We can root for Kanter!! :)
Because LeBron is effectively espousing the NBA's position on HK. His timing, language and his stance are all questionable of. course.

I just wonder how consistent it is to "dunk" on LeBron and yet still consume NBA product. Or many other goods and services which are sourced, at least in part, from China.
 

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Because LeBron is effectively espousing the NBA's position on HK. His timing, language and his stance are all questionable of. course.

I just wonder how consistent it is to "dunk" on LeBron and yet still consume NBA product. Or many other goods and services which are sourced, at least in part, from China.
That’s fair.

And think the disdain for LeBron’s comments can be considered separately from the NBA’s position, though.

You can understand the business stakes and still think someone is being a bit of a turd about the whole thing, yeah?
 

BigSoxFan

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That’s fair.

And think the disdain for LeBron’s comments can be considered separately from the NBA’s position, though.

You can understand the business stakes and still think someone is being a bit of a turd about the whole thing, yeah?
Yeah, why can’t we separate the two, DeJesus? Nobody needs to boycott anything. LeBron is generally a good guy. But he was a douche in this instance and is deservedly getting some shit for it.
 

Kliq

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Because LeBron is effectively espousing the NBA's position on HK. His timing, language and his stance are all questionable of. course.

I just wonder how consistent it is to "dunk" on LeBron and yet still consume NBA product. Or many other goods and services which are sourced, at least in part, from China.
I don't think most people have a problem with LeBron shying away from criticizing the Chinese government as much as they have a problem with him slamming Morey for voicing his opinion when LeBron has at the same time, built some of his brand by voicing his opinion on public issues. It is extremely transparent and a bad look for LeBron because it shows that he is willing to speak out against something he (apparently) believes in (freedom of speech, not shut up and dribble, etc.) if someone waves enough money in front of his face.

It is possible to feel like the NBA didn't do the right thing here and also not boycott the league. And yeah, we can all dunk on LeBron as much as we want. When you are making hundreds of millions of dollars from basketball, you have a greater responsibility when it comes to representing basketball and the NBA than a regular fan does.
 

Ale Xander

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It's as simple as his beliefs in freedom of speech don't seem to extend to Hongkongers and Americans supporting Hongkonger rights.
 

fairlee76

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I know people are relishing being able to "dunk" on James. However I do wonder how many real NBA fans (not casual viewers but LP subscribers for example)are prepared to boycott the league over this whole issue.
Well, they better be prepared to boycott the US of A, too, because we made the same deal with China (profits over people) about 30 years ago. And YES to having Kanter to root for if one needs that type of motivation to watch the NBA. I'm just excited that this year's Celtics team does not seem as miserable personality-wise as last season's iteration.
 

Captaincoop

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Giving Lebron crap for being a selfish, greedy, hypocrite doesn't mean you have to boycott the NBA. I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean.

If I boycotted every enterprise that had some employees that disagreed with me on politics I would be really good at solitaire.
 

johnmd20

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Giving Lebron crap for being a selfish, greedy, hypocrite doesn't mean you have to boycott the NBA. I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean.

If I boycotted every enterprise that had some employees that disagreed with me on politics I would be really good at solitaire.
And the person who invented solitaire probably has some skeletons.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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All these responses are fair. I will admit its something I am struggling with myself.

If I am truly upset with the substance of James comments (as opposed to it simply being a poor response by LeBron), the NBA's response to Morey's tweet and my own personal view that Morey tried to have his cake and eat it too, then I need to question whether it is hypocritical of me to consume NBA product.

It sucks that we have to even consider it but its not nearly as bad as the situation that those on the ground in HK (or those who are Uyghurs) are dealing with on a daily basis.
 

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All these responses are fair. I will admit its something I am struggling with myself.

If I am truly upset with the substance of James comments (as opposed to it simply being a poor response by LeBron), the NBA's response to Morey's tweet and my own personal view that Morey tried to have his cake and eat it too, then I need to question whether it is hypocritical of me to consume NBA product.

It sucks that we have to even consider it but its not nearly as bad as the situation that those on the ground in HK (or those who are Uyghurs) are dealing with on a daily basis.
I think where I disagree is he notion that Morey has to put himself at risk in some way, put some skin in the game as you say, for his behavior to be valid.

If anything, he demonstrated how much power his voice has, albeit in a rare sort of situation. Not to go all Spider-Man, but his moral responsibility is how to use that power.

I’m not saying he had to say what he said, and I’m not saying I hold it against anyone who doesn’t similarly act as he did given the stakes and the relationships. But there really is no escaping the Spider-Man Conundrum, so I don’t have a problem with what he did.

If I were a friend caught in the crossfire, I do expect he’d have gotten a bunch of texts from me thanking him for the heads’ up, of course.
 

mauf

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The modern NBA is basically a 50/50 joint venture between the owners and the players. If the pie shrinks because of Morey’s tweet, the players don’t think that should come out of their half.

There’s nothing easier than asking someone else to sacrifice for social justice.
 

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The modern NBA is basically a 50/50 joint venture between the owners and the players. If the pie shrinks because of Morey’s tweet, the players don’t think that should come out of their half.

There’s nothing easier than asking someone else to sacrifice for social justice.
But we’re always asking some to sacrifice.

It’s just a matter of whom we ask, and how visible or invisible they are too us-whether the sacrifice is acknowledged and recognized or not.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think where I disagree is he notion that Morey has to put himself at risk in some way, put some skin in the game as you say, for his behavior to be valid.

If anything, he demonstrated how much power his voice has, albeit in a rare sort of situation. Not to go all Spider-Man, but his moral responsibility is how to use that power.

I’m not saying he had to say what he said, and I’m not saying I hold it against anyone who doesn’t similarly act as he did given the stakes and the relationships. But there really is no escaping the Spider-Man Conundrum, so I don’t have a problem with what he did.

If I were a friend caught in the crossfire, I do expect he’d have gotten a bunch of texts from me thanking him for the heads’ up, of course.
Again, it all comes down to how you view social media. I love Morey - the guy is pretty brilliant when it comes to building rosters and finding undervalued talent - but what he did here was just shitty. To me, he didn't take a stand, especially given the walk back on the follow. I also think he made his initial Tweet with the confidence that he wouldn't get fired for it whereas most of us would likely get shot for doing something similar to our respective employers.

I consider activism to have a sacrificial component and what Morey did entailed little in the way of giving something up for his views. I get that his goal was to be helpful and he clearly highlighted an issue for the NBA (and the world). However the way he went about things is just incredibly hamfisted and weak.
 

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Again, it all comes down to how you view social media. I love Morey - the guy is pretty brilliant when it comes to building rosters and finding undervalued talent - but what he did here was just shitty. To me, he didn't take a stand, especially given the walk back on the follow. I also think he made his initial Tweet with the confidence that he wouldn't get fired for it whereas most of us would likely get shot for doing something similar to our respective employers.

I consider activism to have a sacrificial component and what Morey did entailed little in the way of giving something up for his views. I get that his goal was to be helpful and he clearly highlighted an issue for the NBA (and the world). However the way he went about things is just incredibly hamfisted and weak.
I agree that this was not well executed.

I also, however, think that China was looking for an opportunity to pick this fight—this was going to come up at some point, somehow, and I think it would be nâive of us to think that China hadn’t already been thinking about it.

What’s perhaps more remarkable is how flat footed the NBA was taken on this in a way that other companies have not been.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I agree that this was not well executed.

I also, however, think that China was looking for an opportunity to pick this fight—this was going to come up at some point, somehow, and I think it would be nâive of us to think that China hadn’t already been thinking about it.

What’s perhaps more remarkable is how flat footed the NBA was taken on this in a way that other companies have not been.
I think you are spot on that this issue was going to come up eventually and that its remarkable that a league as well run as the NBA got caught so flat footed, especially with people on the ground in China.

I will also add that the "walk-back" comments you posted by LeBron have some merit even if his original ones were terrible. He and other personnel were actually in-country and Morey deciding to fire off a Tweet at the same time was also a bad show. At the very least, he could have waited until everyone was back stateside, even if he was reacting to events in Hong Kong. I can only imagine what NBA people had to contend with last week. Again, it pales in comparison to what Hong Kong residents etc are dealing with but it was still real fallout.
 

DJnVa

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If this is going to be the Rockets season thread, can we pull the China stuff to a new thread, since it's spread beyond just the Rockets?

Or maybe even just rename this thread and move the non-China stuff to Rockets thread?
 

lexrageorge

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Again, it all comes down to how you view social media. I love Morey - the guy is pretty brilliant when it comes to building rosters and finding undervalued talent - but what he did here was just shitty. To me, he didn't take a stand, especially given the walk back on the follow. I also think he made his initial Tweet with the confidence that he wouldn't get fired for it whereas most of us would likely get shot for doing something similar to our respective employers.

I consider activism to have a sacrificial component and what Morey did entailed little in the way of giving something up for his views. I get that his goal was to be helpful and he clearly highlighted an issue for the NBA (and the world). However the way he went about things is just incredibly hamfisted and weak.
Not sure what you would expect Morey to do. Keeping quiet, and he's complicit. And he's not obligated to sacrifice his job or career for HK.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Not sure what you would expect Morey to do. Keeping quiet, and he's complicit. And he's not obligated to sacrifice his job or career for HK.
He is complicit after the fact because he Tweeted and then walked it back. If he is going to wade into this topic with a social media post, essentially saying "my bad" on the follow is worse than keeping quiet or making a bigger statement. Its about as weak as you can get.

Out of a nod of respect for our fellow posters who don't want any more of this topic, I will bow out. I am nowhere near certain my views are right and there is no need to continue on. I suspect we are a long way from being done with the issue for the NBA though.
 

BigSoxFan

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He is complicit after the fact because he Tweeted and then walked it back. If he is going to wade into this topic with a social media post, essentially saying "my bad" on the follow is worse than keeping quiet or making a bigger statement. Its about as weak as you can get.

Out of a nod of respect for our fellow posters who don't want any more of this topic, I will bow out. I am nowhere near certain my views are right and there is no need to continue on. I suspect we are a long way from being done with the issue for the NBA though.
No need to bow out. We’re having a respectful dialog and I think you have valid points. This is a fascinating topic that is worthy of continued discussion, as this story is just beginning.

Agree with DrewDawg that it’s worth a dedicated thread since the Rockets’ on court performance deserves its own thread given the Westbrook acquisition.
 

luckiestman

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He is complicit after the fact because he Tweeted and then walked it back. If he is going to wade into this topic with a social media post, essentially saying "my bad" on the follow is worse than keeping quiet or making a bigger statement. Its about as weak as you can get.

Out of a nod of respect for our fellow posters who don't want any more of this topic, I will bow out. I am nowhere near certain my views are right and there is no need to continue on. I suspect we are a long way from being done with the issue for the NBA though.

This thread was started to discuss Morey/China/nba, a general Rockets thread could be spun off or started but you shouldn’t feel compelled to stop talking about it.
 

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Van Everyman

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I dunno. Silver did defend the freedom of speech – but was also pretty clearly passing the buck to the players, asking them to speak to a super complex issue they had nothing to do with. To his credit, Lebron was having none of it.

It also puts Lebron’s comments criticizing Morey in some context. No, it doesn’t compare to Kanter but these players were probably marginally terrified that they might not be let out of the country. Particularly when you realize that Team USA had just gotten a briefing on Chinese sovereignty, it does seem like, however principled his protest might have been, Morey wasn’t really considering that he might be putting players’ safety at risk.

Also, LOL @ Kyrie.
 

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So, is like half of Africa going to be sporting Rockets gear?
 

benhogan

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I dunno. Silver did defend the freedom of speech – but was also pretty clearly passing the buck to the players, asking them to speak to a super complex issue they had nothing to do with. To his credit, Lebron was having none of it.

It also puts Lebron’s comments criticizing Morey in some context. No, it doesn’t compare to Kanter but these players were probably marginally terrified that they might not be let out of the country. Particularly when you realize that Team USA had just gotten a briefing on Chinese sovereignty, it does seem like, however principled his protest might have been, Morey wasn’t really considering that he might be putting players’ safety at risk.

Also, LOL @ Kyrie.
By far the best post on this tire fire of a thread
 

lostjumper

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I dunno. Silver did defend the freedom of speech – but was also pretty clearly passing the buck to the players, asking them to speak to a super complex issue they had nothing to do with. To his credit, Lebron was having none of it.

It also puts Lebron’s comments criticizing Morey in some context. No, it doesn’t compare to Kanter but these players were probably marginally terrified that they might not be let out of the country. Particularly when you realize that Team USA had just gotten a briefing on Chinese sovereignty, it does seem like, however principled his protest might have been, Morey wasn’t really considering that he might be putting players’ safety at risk.

Also, LOL @ Kyrie.
There is no way in hell the Chinese were going to detain a couple of basketball teams from the US. They love our current state of infighting and tearing each other apart. It weakens us, and allows them to be unopposed. The moment they detain the teams, the entire country is unified around one idea.

Don't be fooled, this is about shoes and money, nothing more. Don't buy the spin.
 

lexrageorge

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As someone who is supportive of Morey's right to criticize China's policies, I can understand the players being particularly upset at the timing of Morey's tweet. They were in China on what was essentially a promotional tour. It was probably a bit unsettling to see blank spaces where their pictures and logos should have been. And they probably had their friends back in the states texting them about the resulting Armageddon as ESPN prognosticators start discussing how China might essentially firewall the NBA and anything related to the NBA from the country. I'm sure at some thought "Oh shit! What if they decide to detain us?". It's not a logical thought, but they were in a situation where illogical thoughts can easily take over one's mind. Yes, and shoe sales.

Obviously, I'm not going to shed any tears over any of the players' sneaker deals. But I can understand why the players that were in China at the time were upset. And there were a fair number of players that are likely to have fairly short stints in the NBA; I believe Demetrius Jackson was there for the Lakers.
 

sezwho

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There is no way in hell the Chinese were going to detain a couple of basketball teams from the US. They love our current state of infighting and tearing each other apart. It weakens us, and allows them to be unopposed. The moment they detain the teams, the entire country is unified around one idea.

Don't be fooled, this is about shoes and money, nothing more. Don't buy the spin.
Correct, China sees our leader promising them trade concessions (favors) in exchange for interfering in our elections, with the full throated endorsement of a huge chunk of the nation: no way they rock the boat.

That said, its still got to linger in the back of the players minds...back before Russia was our best pal I had a friend in Moscow during the 1993 coup attempt and I can tell you that civil unrest in a totalitarian nation is very scary for everyone involved.
 

reggiecleveland

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Hard for me to find a way to see Lebron's statement as really bad work by him and his people. He has been such a careful, and carefully managed guy it was a dumbfounding misstep. He even mentions"financial" first among the concerns with the tweet. There is no other way to cut it, than a lot of people lost money, and he and his team had an annoying couple of days. It just amazes me that he couldn't word it better, or just stay out of it. From the ESPN article it seems Lebron was angry at Morey and wanted him punished for...? costing them money? ruining the trip? Now everyone in the west has made our bargain with a brutal dictatorship to get cheap manufactured goods, and now to sell them things. It is unfair to place all of this on Lebron, or the NBA, but at a moment when China reveals its true ugly nature Lebron chose to side with them and against free speech. He has tarnished a well earned reputation as a guy with a social conscience, deserves all the scorn aimed his way.
 

reggiecleveland

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Nor in Taiwan
Taiwan plus Hong Kong are around 30 million people. That is less than Canada. There are more people in the 6th through ninth largest cities in the mainland. That is is the calculation Lebron has made. He just needs to manage the USA fallout, handled by playing well for a few weeks.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Taiwan plus Hong Kong are around 30 million people. That is less than Canada. There are more people in the 6th through ninth largest cities in the mainland. That is is the calculation Lebron has made. He just needs to manage the USA fallout, handled by playing well for a few weeks.
I mostly agree - but if LeBron ever wants to speak out about social issues again he is now going to be faced with the criticism that he wouldn't be speaking out if he thought it would hurt his bottom line. I suspect, like most obscenely wealthy celebrities, he really doesn't give a shit about that, but it certainly paints him as hypocritical and only out for himself.
 

axx

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He has tarnished a well earned reputation as a guy with a social conscience, deserves all the scorn aimed his way.
See, I don't get why people let themselves get suckered into the "Woke PR" (for lack of a better word). And yes, they do it because people eat it up. Apple's the biggest offender of this.
 

reggiecleveland

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See, I don't get why people let themselves get suckered into the "Woke PR" (for lack of a better word). And yes, they do it because people eat it up. Apple's the biggest offender of this.
I guess since I met him as a kid and watched him play then, and he seemed exceptional at handling the celebrity, the pressure, everything. So I admired the guy, even if I usually cheered against his teams. I don't think he took stands on BLM, and other issues from a PR standpoint, but thought that he was generally a better guy than MJ, Kobe, et al. He had a platform to do some good things and he screwed it up.
 

sezwho

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See, I don't get why people let themselves get suckered into the "Woke PR" (for lack of a better word). And yes, they do it because people eat it up. Apple's the biggest offender of this.
See, I don’t understand why people won’t let themselves consider that people can be ‘Woke’ but not perfect.

There is room between cynic and sucker, though perhaps not for you.

Apple is an appalling example of this at a corporate level though.
 

Big John

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It would have been so much better for LeBron to say "I don't know enough to comment" instead of saying that Morey didn't know enough to comment. The implication that LeBron knows something than Morey does not is egotistical and probably just plain wrong.
 

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See, I don’t understand why people won’t let themselves consider that people can be ‘Woke’ but not perfect.

There is room between cynic and sucker, though perhaps not for you.

Apple is an appalling example of this at a corporate level though.
I agree but I’d go a step further.

He was mad.

What’s weird here is that he spoke to the press while still mad. The irony is that he’s mad at Morey for making what seems like a careless statement without considering the ramifications for the business and he people... and then because he was mad, he did the exact same thing.

Business often asks us to be inhuman, in certain ways. It sucks, but there it is.

What’s striking is that LeBron is aware of that, and was specially thinking about it and was criticizing Morey for it thinking about it, and in he process, did the same thing. It’s doubly problematic because anger makes people sorta self-absorbed by its nature, and LeBron’s comments reflect that.

So it’s kinda odd that he suddenly forgot himself as a half a billion dollar brand and just spoke out like someone who was just mad without full consideration of the coast mad benefits...

But that’s why we call it mad, yeah?
 

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Strangely enough, making this political in that way kinda ruins it for me.

The people claiming that there are a lot of people using this incident as a pretext for hammering LeBron and the NBA for culture war purposes are not wrong.
 

Big John

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I'm hammering China for the same reason the South Park guys are hammering China. The government in Peking started this and escalated this-- see among other things https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/255744/Daryl-Morey-Was-Targeted-By-Coordinated-Pro-China-Troll-Accounts--and the situation in Hong Kong is worsening for them. Carrie Lam can't even make a speech without being shouted down. LeBron and the NBA are just a side show, although the government fuctionaries who thought it was a good idea to bash Morey and the NBA ought to be fired.

I thought Silver took the right position, even though it took the league two tries. Nor do I have a problem with players keeping silent. But don't pretend you have some knowledge of the situation or moral courage when you don't. Enes Kanter can't defend a chair but he has moral courage.
 

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I'm hammering China for the same reason the South Park guys are hammering China. The government in Peking started this and escalated this-- see among other things https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/255744/Daryl-Morey-Was-Targeted-By-Coordinated-Pro-China-Troll-Accounts--and the situation in Hong Kong is worsening for them. Carrie Lam can't even make a speech without being shouted down. LeBron and the NBA are just a side show, although the government fuctionaries who thought it was a good idea to bash Morey and the NBA ought to be fired.

I thought Silver took the right position, even though it took the league two tries. Nor do I have a problem with players keeping silent. But don't pretend you have some knowledge of the situation or moral courage when you don't. Enes Kanter can't defend a chair but he has moral courage.
I was referring to the fact that you posted a watermarked pic.

Not a huge deal, and it seems unintentional. But I thought it worth noting since it came up.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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While announcing that NBA financial losses due to the China fallout were "substantial," Silver also added the following:

"We were being asked to fire him by the Chinese government,” he said at a conference in New York. “We said, there’s no chance that’s happening – there’s no chance we’ll even discipline him.”

China of course denied making this request.

Not sure why Silver decided to say this but it certainly can't help matters.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3033590/china-denies-it-pressured-nba-sack-houston-rockets-daryl-morey
 

themuddychicken

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One reason for Silver to say it would be if China was continually hounding him to discipline Morey. If he felt that the issue was settled and China wasn't listening then going public ends it right there.

Another reason could be that Silver is human and humans sometime make mistakes, even successful ones.