2019-2020 Celtics Regular Season Thread
- Thread starter Devizier
- Start date
Is Brad's plan for the top 6 players of this team to never be able to all participate in the same game until the playoffs start?
I say this knowing that it is likely due to nagging injuries or general rest from the grind of a long season, but damn it's like having a sports car and never being able to cut it loose at top speed.
OTOH-- (and maybe to further the analogy), that might lower the pleasure of driving to your destination, but it makes it less likely that you'll crash on the way.
Tonight in Cleveland should be interesting.
Tatum - Out
Kemba - Out (rest)
Jaylen - Doubtful (ham)
Hayward - Doubtful (knee)
Smart - Possible Suspension
Tatum - Out
Kemba - Out (rest)
Jaylen - Doubtful (ham)
Hayward - Doubtful (knee)
Smart - Possible Suspension
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The team looked pretty awful last night. The vast majority was just really bad luck with Hayward and JB going down with injuries. But, I didn't understand the Javonte Green love all of a sudden out of the middle of nowhere. Sometimes it seems like the Celtics treat games like they are in Spring training. I was a bit surprised to see not so much Grant Williams, and Theis could also have played more, I think. Just a brutal, ugly loss.
Grant and Theis were not good matchups for the lineups the Nets has out there. They are loaded with guards/wings who can beat you off the dribble and we literally lost all of our guards/wings ahead of Green on the depth chart to injury.
As recently as last week I was strongly considering buying tickets and driving 2 hours each way to attend, since that'd be the only game I get to see in person this year.
I'm now rather glad that I didn't. Even if I had the tickets as a sunk cost now, it'd be a real question whether I'd want to put that amount of time, to go to Cleveland, just to see the likes of Javonte Green.
Really challenging stretch coming up, too, especially if Hayward is out, too.
Nothing comes easily for this team.
It was worth it.
Of course, my tickets were free and I was already in Cleveland. But still.
Not sure if this should be in a separate thread but it's a fun question to discuss potentially. Four stars, each with a weakness in their game. So let's fix the weakness and then decide which more complete player is the best.
Luka Doncic but with Jaylen Brown's athleticism.
Russell Westbrook but with Ray Allen's outside shot.
Steph Curry but with Jayson Tatum's height.
Andre Drummond but with Kevin McHale's post moves.
Which player is the best now?
Luka Doncic but with Jaylen Brown's athleticism.
Russell Westbrook but with Ray Allen's outside shot.
Steph Curry but with Jayson Tatum's height.
Andre Drummond but with Kevin McHale's post moves.
Which player is the best now?
It has to be Westbrook right? His MVP year he averaged 32 11 and 10 even though he was at best a mediocre shooter that year. If we're giving him peak ray allen shooting numbers his 32 jumps to somewhere in the high 30s, probably even higher because he'd shoot even more.
It’s too early to tell, but Luca Doncic without Jaylen Brown’s athleticism may still end up being better then the other three choices.
Westbrook is the one I wouldn't choose (along with Drummond). Give Westbrook Ray Allen range and he's still a stat chasing turnover machine who doesn't seem to play well with others. Curry with Tatum's height is a difficult player to imagine, because unlike the others he'd look totally different (as opposed to Luka being more athletic, Westbrook with a good outside shot and Drummond being more skilled). Can a guy grow 7 inches and not lose any quickness? If he keeps the lightning release and excellent handle he'd be Durant with better range and attitude. I'd have to take Luka, if only because I have to imagine some tradeoff with Curry's height and speed. Give Luka Brown's athleticism and he's a cross between Jordan and Lebron, at age 21.
He can stat chase all he wants on my team if he's putting up pretty much the best offensive seasons since Wilt Chamberlain.
For all his gifts, Wilt won fewer titles than 6'3 Steph Curry, let alone a Steph Curry who is magically 7 inches taller and still the most dangerous shooter in league history.
As noted, the Curry one is weird to me and doesn’t quite fit. “Curry with Marcus Smart’s body” is more interesting, since it’s more imaginable.
Post moves aren’t super valuable now, and Drummond would still suck at D, so that one is an easy elimination.
The Westbrook one is appealing at first glance, but the tiebreaker for me with Luka is that Jaylen Luka could guard 1-4 at a high level, and probably play smallball 5. That’s insane positional value—you’re talking about “better LeBron” at that point.
I probably take Marcus Smart Steph at the end of the day, just because he can guard 1-4 and get off the most valuable shot at will, but it’s a close call between that and Jaylen Luka.
Post moves aren’t super valuable now, and Drummond would still suck at D, so that one is an easy elimination.
The Westbrook one is appealing at first glance, but the tiebreaker for me with Luka is that Jaylen Luka could guard 1-4 at a high level, and probably play smallball 5. That’s insane positional value—you’re talking about “better LeBron” at that point.
I probably take Marcus Smart Steph at the end of the day, just because he can guard 1-4 and get off the most valuable shot at will, but it’s a close call between that and Jaylen Luka.
It should be Andre Drummond with Davis Betans 3P shot. He'd still be behind the others though.
It says a lot about Andre Drummond, Max Player, that you could give him Kevin McHale’s post moves and people are still like, “ehhh, I guess.”
Doesn't it say more about today's NBA? Also says something about how overvalued the 3P shot is?
I mean in another universe where FTs are worth 2Ps, a regular shot is worth 4P and the long shot is worth 5P, Drummond is still probably a perennial All-Star, right? (Just guessing here; if the math is wrong I'm sure someone will correct me!)?
(I know the same can be accomplished by moving the 3P line back so give that the NBA isn't going to change the 1-2-3 scoring system, I believe the NBA should move the line back. They should at least get rid of the corner 3. This article suggests that the line should be moved back to 27' and that was based on 2017-18 stats).
Drummond with McHale’s post moves would be absolutely unstoppable. Add to that his rebounding and he’d be a monster. Wouldn’t solve his problems on the defensive end, however.....
On a somewat related note. Dunc'd on had an interesting hypothetical this past week. Would a 10 man rotation, made up from all players in the league who have never been on an all-NBA team (including ones who were likely to get on there this year), win the title this year. So would need ot beat Clippers/Lakers/Bucks/etc.
Their starting 5 was Jrue, Booker, Tatum, Simmons, Porzingis. With a bench of Morant, Jaylen, OG, Zion, Bam.
Was some good discussion about not including guys like Mitchell, Richardson, Milsap, Myles Turner, etc.
So...agree with that 10 man rotation?
Their starting 5 was Jrue, Booker, Tatum, Simmons, Porzingis. With a bench of Morant, Jaylen, OG, Zion, Bam.
Was some good discussion about not including guys like Mitchell, Richardson, Milsap, Myles Turner, etc.
So...agree with that 10 man rotation?
I’d just worry about the 5 mostly, and having Porzingis and Bam hold up to the banging. I might choose a more lunchpail guy from the rest of the league. If I weren’t worried about health/age, someone like Baynes would be ideal.
The general concept there is you get to put shooting around Simmons and defense around Booker, with Tatum shrinking the floor hard and functioning as a floor spacer or late-clock option.
It’s hard to win a title with that team since experience does matter, but it’s definitely a contender.
I know they say a deep bench means less in the playoffs but in this case, I think it would to a title.
A guy who can defend the paint and stretch the floor like Turner would be a better fit for that starting 5 than the Unicorn.
WORD
you'd only add a guy like Baynes if you wanted solid defense, physical screens, unselfish team play and winning basketball... but I'd actually opt for Sabonis, who is a younger more polished AB
I agree with their take. I would much prefer Porzingis and Bam over Sabonis, Turner, Lopez, Baynes, etc.
Sabonis defense is just not good enough, IMO. You need a rim protector, and he most certainly not
Sabonis defense is just not good enough, IMO. You need a rim protector, and he most certainly not
Oh man, I hadn’t thought of Lopez. I’d take him over Bam on this particular team, even though I’d much rather have Bam if I were building a roster.
Teams are clearly afraid of him as a floor-spacer, despite his lowered 3pt% this year, and his drop D would be great on a team with Tatum/Simmons/Jrue/Jaylen/OG as defensive options.
I’d be trying to play Kristaps most of the time, but there are a few matchups in which you absolutely want a Lopez-type.
I get the concept of having Turner as a floor spacer, but volume and release speed really matter when you’re building around Simmons, and Brook is that in a way Turner isn’t yet.
Given the wing depth with Jrue, Tatum, Jaylen, Simmons, Zion, I’d probably boot OG instead of Bam though, now that I think about it.
This team would be really awesome for Simmons and Jaylen in particular—they both benefit a lot (in different ways) when you can engineer quickness mismatches on a super-spaced floor.
Also, now that I think about it (I clearly miss basketball lol), I would almost definitely put Hayward on this team. He gives you yet another wing defender, and he can also function as a primary initiator. I’d likely do him over Ja, just because of Ja being a rookie, and because the elit teams don’t really have quick P&R guys.
This is a less a green-colored glasses thing than a “the Celtics have lots of the tier below All-NBA guys” thing.
This is a less a green-colored glasses thing than a “the Celtics have lots of the tier below All-NBA guys” thing.
Just listened to the podcast...was surprised how un-excited they are about Simmons offensively and defensively. Is that just them? Ben Simmons is a really f-ing awesome player, stuck on a weird roster. They were like “yeah, maybe he’ll make All-NBA one day, I guess.”
Their anti-Tatum priors are almost a meme at this point.
Tatum shuts down Kawhi: “Yeah, I guess he kind of was ok on Kawhi in that one game, but we really need to use a roster spot on OG to be comfortable there defensively.”
“Who do we have on this team who shoots 3s well at high volume? Booker, Porzingis maybe, anyone else...? Nope, can’t think of anyone.”
Simmons and Tatum aside, it was a fun podcast/exercise though. Now that I've thought about it, I'd do the following:
Starters:
Booker, Jaylen, Tatum, Simmons, Porzingis. Crazy length with 3 possible plus initiators in Booker, Simmons, and Tatum.
Bench:
Zion, Lopez, Bertans, Bam, Hayward
Zion and Bertans are there as the defensive liability/unique offensive pieces whom you expect to mix and match with starters depending on matchup. Lopez is there because you don't want to get knocked out in the 1st round by Philly or Denver, and he still enables great spacing while providing strong drop defense, Bam is just too good and versatile, have to get him in.
Hayward makes it for me over Jrue and Ja because he is versatile defensively against the 3 teams you're trying to beat, is a better shooter than either of them, and still adds the passing/ball-handling that could otherwise be in issue in some of these groups.
Their anti-Tatum priors are almost a meme at this point.
Tatum shuts down Kawhi: “Yeah, I guess he kind of was ok on Kawhi in that one game, but we really need to use a roster spot on OG to be comfortable there defensively.”
“Who do we have on this team who shoots 3s well at high volume? Booker, Porzingis maybe, anyone else...? Nope, can’t think of anyone.”
Simmons and Tatum aside, it was a fun podcast/exercise though. Now that I've thought about it, I'd do the following:
Starters:
Booker, Jaylen, Tatum, Simmons, Porzingis. Crazy length with 3 possible plus initiators in Booker, Simmons, and Tatum.
Bench:
Zion, Lopez, Bertans, Bam, Hayward
Zion and Bertans are there as the defensive liability/unique offensive pieces whom you expect to mix and match with starters depending on matchup. Lopez is there because you don't want to get knocked out in the 1st round by Philly or Denver, and he still enables great spacing while providing strong drop defense, Bam is just too good and versatile, have to get him in.
Hayward makes it for me over Jrue and Ja because he is versatile defensively against the 3 teams you're trying to beat, is a better shooter than either of them, and still adds the passing/ball-handling that could otherwise be in issue in some of these groups.
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The thing about the dunc’d on guys is they want every team to play the Warriors system and every player to fit within it. Simmons doesn’t (just like Marcus Smart didn’t, who they always disliked) so they undervalue him. Tatum wasn’t perceived as a 3pt shooter so he doesn’t fit (actual performance be damned)
It’s a fun concept and they are very knowledgeable but it’s a pretty big gap that they struggle to individualize teams, their window of contention, and their on-court system very well
Hayward is I think generally undervalued. Not sure I’d take him on that roster but your theory is reasonable for sure
It’s a fun concept and they are very knowledgeable but it’s a pretty big gap that they struggle to individualize teams, their window of contention, and their on-court system very well
Hayward is I think generally undervalued. Not sure I’d take him on that roster but your theory is reasonable for sure
Stretch the floor, certainly. I've just never had the impression that he's really a defensive force.
They had Marcus Smart as one their 5 best contracts in the league. They have come around
I agree with your overall assessment of Simmons's skills but he is also a weird player himself.
Aside from the total lack of a jumper, he has shown almost no statistical progression during his 3 years in the league. While 16.5-8-8 is obviously very impressive, it is strange to see how identical his stat lines have been over his age 21-22-23 year old seasons.
As long as he's either hitting them or not taking them, it's a great contract.
Even with his '17-18 rate of 30.1% on 4.6 3PA / game, the rest of what he does makes him a positive asset, just not "top 5 contract in the league". It's easy to overestimate what level of performance $13M / yr buys you in the NBA.
I love shitting all over Simmons, but this isn't really fair. His counting stats (points, rebounds, assists) have stayed pretty still but even while refusing to expand his range he's become a more efficient scorer. His FG% has gone from .545 to .563 to .585, and his FT% has gone from .560 to .600 to .627. He's also improved on defense, to the point where he's leading the NBA in steals and one of the very few who is an above average defender against 98% of the league.
Yeah, and this is even before you get into the effect that the shitty ecosystem has had on him.
I need to go make up fake Simmons trades sometime to think of which team structures would really make him pop. I guess that was a lot of the fun of that Duncan/LeRoux podcast for me: imagining a fresh start for Simmons.
I'd love to see Simmons somewhere without Embiid and with a more coherent rest of the roster. I think he's never going to be perfect, but I suspect if he were on the market you'd see a bunch of smart teams trying tro acquire him.
Have people comp'd him to Pippen? In my mind, there's a great deal of similarity there.
Have people comp'd him to Pippen? In my mind, there's a great deal of similarity there.
A video that will make you like Jaylen Brown just a little bit more than you already do:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAh_ZRfxtJc
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAh_ZRfxtJc
Interesting Keith Smith article, interviewing rival teams about the Celtics.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/14/21258527/outside-thoughts-on-the-boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
In contrast to Hollinger, most everyone still employed by NBA teams is medium to high on Langford, but think he’ll be blocked playing in Boston. I don’t see how that happens if he learns to shoot, but it could be an issue otherwise.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/14/21258527/outside-thoughts-on-the-boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
In contrast to Hollinger, most everyone still employed by NBA teams is medium to high on Langford, but think he’ll be blocked playing in Boston. I don’t see how that happens if he learns to shoot, but it could be an issue otherwise.
Even Poirier got a little love. Mostly high on Waters, low on Edwards. One guy really likes RW. Mixed on GW.
Interesting that most were not Jaylen fans draft time, but have seriously changed their tune since he developed a decent handle. So tough to project these guys.
Interesting that most were not Jaylen fans draft time, but have seriously changed their tune since he developed a decent handle. So tough to project these guys.
