Mets trade for Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
Cookie too huh?
Indians had a nice little window. Came up just short in 2016, couldn't beat the Yankees a couple times painfully after. Sadly the window should have gone on awhile longer, but Dolan.
Indians had a nice little window. Came up just short in 2016, couldn't beat the Yankees a couple times painfully after. Sadly the window should have gone on awhile longer, but Dolan.
I bet it won't be a ton as Lindor will be a free agent after next season and Carrasco is a salary dump. They will get some prospects back but the haul I doubt will be huge.
"Whole deal is Rosario, Gimenez, Wolf and Greene for Carrasco and Lindor." - Sherman
View: https://twitter.com/joelsherman1/status/1347239009060343810?s=21
View: https://twitter.com/joelsherman1/status/1347239009060343810?s=21
I don't know what a similar package is yet, but probably. It's complicated though and depends somewhat on whether DJ is coming back or not.
And again, whether the Indians would trade them to the Yankees. Which is always in doubt.
At least Sox and Yankees fans can agree this is good news and keeps Lindor out of Toronto. For now.
View: https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/status/1347239431879749633?s=21
Full trade, per sources:
To Mets: Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco.
To Indians: Amed Rosario, Andrés Giménez, Josh Wolf, Isaiah Greene.
@Ken_Rosenthal
—
New Yorkers underpaying Indians has been a thing for a while now.
Full trade, per sources:
To Mets: Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco.
To Indians: Amed Rosario, Andrés Giménez, Josh Wolf, Isaiah Greene.
@Ken_Rosenthal
—
New Yorkers underpaying Indians has been a thing for a while now.
Can anyone compare the Mookie package vs the Lindor package? On the surface it seems like there are similarities with an elite, franchise level talent being traded in their walk year with an older-ish pitcher attached.
Official only 40 minutes after the first whiffs of it by Passan. Pretty tight leash on leaks for a big trade.
Rosario has been a below average regular, so that doesn't compare great to Verdugo. Gimenez is expected to be good. I don't think Wolf or Greene is considered a blue chip prospect like Downs [almost] is.
Carrasco is not overpaid at all either: Signed thru 2022, 4 yrs/$47M (19-22) & 23 team option per BBREF.
He won't be the biggest star in the city if he plays like last year.
He slugged .415 last year after slugging .518 and .519 the two previous years. That's a huge difference. Maybe it's just a small sample size. Maybe he just couldn't time things to fit an uncertain season's start. At any rate, if he keeps slugging .415 he'll look like George Foster II among Mets acquisitions.
He slugged .415 last year after slugging .518 and .519 the two previous years. That's a huge difference. Maybe it's just a small sample size. Maybe he just couldn't time things to fit an uncertain season's start. At any rate, if he keeps slugging .415 he'll look like George Foster II among Mets acquisitions.
He's 27. George Foster was 33.
He wasn't great last year, but I think the COVID season was an outlier for a lot of people. Lindor didn't completely fall off a cliff like J.D. Martinez, Kris Bryant and Christian Yelich.
Last edited:
[ducking] This makes the Mookie deal look great for the Red Sox. Verdugo is better than either Gimenez or Rosario, and Carrasco is a net asset instead of a burden like Price. [/ducking]
I'm wondering how you feel about this because I know you've been on the "I want to trade for Lindor" bandwagon for a while now, and also because of all places...he went to the Mets.
I don't care about the Mets as a rival and I always expect CLE to trade their players to the NL if possible (Bauer, Clevinger, now Lindor). The thing about Lindor is Gio Urshela is his best buddy so I always thought that Lindor had a good chance of ending up in NY in free agency, but maybe Queens is close enough to the Bronx.
I am happy to shift to the Correa or Seager or Story bandwagon though.
The Mookie deal doesn't need any comparisons to look fantastic for BOS, especially since the year they traded him for ended up being only 60 games.
I've been out of town and busy, so I'll have to dig into this over the weekend, but my first impression is that Rosario ruins the trade.
When I looked up these names a month ago, Gimenez was one I wanted, and when I saw the first three names I had some hope for this deal, knowing there had to at least be a fourth name. However, Rosario does nothing but fill a roster spot.
Carrasco is worth his money on the field and there's not a better clubhouse and community guy in all of baseball, so Cleveland should have gotten more than this. It's disappointing he took a team-friendly deal to set him up for retirement as an Indian and this is the result. It's also disappointing this leaves the immediate outfield situation just as bad as it was.
That said, Lindor's single season value is less of a sure thing than it was a year ago. He was worse in 2020 than his numbers indicate since he mentally checked out and led the league in boneheadedness in the field and on the basepaths.
When I looked up these names a month ago, Gimenez was one I wanted, and when I saw the first three names I had some hope for this deal, knowing there had to at least be a fourth name. However, Rosario does nothing but fill a roster spot.
Carrasco is worth his money on the field and there's not a better clubhouse and community guy in all of baseball, so Cleveland should have gotten more than this. It's disappointing he took a team-friendly deal to set him up for retirement as an Indian and this is the result. It's also disappointing this leaves the immediate outfield situation just as bad as it was.
That said, Lindor's single season value is less of a sure thing than it was a year ago. He was worse in 2020 than his numbers indicate since he mentally checked out and led the league in boneheadedness in the field and on the basepaths.
Fair enough. It's not like there aren't options for NY, and it's not like they don't have an abundance of resources to make additions as you hope they do.I don't care about the Mets as a rival and I always expect CLE to trade their players to the NL if possible (Bauer, Clevinger, now Lindor). The thing about Lindor is Gio Urshela is his best buddy so I always thought that Lindor had a good chance of ending up in NY in free agency, but maybe Queens is close enough to the Bronx.
I am happy to shift to the Correa or Seager or Story bandwagon though.
First of all, sorry man. I felt a little like this when Cano signed with SEA, but not close to the same thing.
Rosario isn't a bust yet IMO, he is still 25 and was pretty good in 2019. He is under control for three years and is still quite cheap.
It really does. I'd say that Carrasco is a comparable asset to Price + $16m/year.
I get that Betts is a better centerpiece than Lindor, but they're at least comparable: two-way media-friendly superstars, but Verdugo is easily the best piece in either return and you could make a good case that Downs is Gimenez' rough equal, or a more tenuous case to prefer JD.
The two infielders are the same age (Downs is like a month older), and have very similar minor league track records. Gimenez has the better defensive rep, while Downs has an extra 50 points of SLG, although I'm not sure how much of that is the product of leagues and ballparks. Both would have been in AAA last year, but Downs was at the alternate site, while Gimenez was in the majors posting a .732 OPS In 132 PA, which of course means he's accrued a year of service time.
Obviously, the Dodgers are thrilled with their end of the deal after finally getting over the hump, but nice work, Chaim.
Lindor’s value was hurt by all the other SS options available (Semien and Simmons and Didi now, Correa and Story and Seager and Baez next winter), plus as people have said, he wasn’t very good last year. Mookie is better in a vacuum but even more so given those two facts IMO.
Bullshit, this is a cheap owner not wanting to pay for top-end talent. The Indians are owned by one of the richest groups in baseball and have seen their franchise quadruple in value over the last 20 years.
Damn...Cookie's one of my favorite players, do I have to like the Mets now?
Seems like a decent haul for the Tribe - but I'm more bullish on Rosario than FF* is. Too bad for Cleveland that Lindor had a down 60 games instead of a 60 game hot streak in the covid year.
Seems like a decent haul for the Tribe - but I'm more bullish on Rosario than FF* is. Too bad for Cleveland that Lindor had a down 60 games instead of a 60 game hot streak in the covid year.
More like triple over 20 years, which relatively speaking isn't a spectacular ROI.
Edit: from 2002-2020, Indians franchise value grew from 360M to 1150M (+219%).
Average MLB franchise grew from 286M to 1862M (+551%)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/194608/mlb-franchise-value-of-the-cleveland-indians-since-2006/https://www.statista.com/statistics/193441/average-franchise-value-in-mlb-since-2000/
Edit: And now I'll probably get tagged as "Dolan apologist" instead of "Eli apologist"... FML.
Last edited:
As an aside, I really don't know if all best friends want to be on the same team. I hated working with my best man. It was too much of a good thing.I don't care about the Mets as a rival and I always expect CLE to trade their players to the NL if possible (Bauer, Clevinger, now Lindor). The thing about Lindor is Gio Urshela is his best buddy so I always thought that Lindor had a good chance of ending up in NY in free agency, but maybe Queens is close enough to the Bronx.
I am happy to shift to the Correa or Seager or Story bandwagon though.
Granted it’s not a huge sample size or anything, but it sure seems like the cost to trade for a star-level MLBer is pretty low right now. I see little downside for the Mets here.
Yeah, but would you enjoy playing a game with him?
I think Lindor would be thrilled to play alongside his buddy, but it doesn't matter. He's going to get offered a big extension and understandably, financial security comes first.
Dolan is cheap, but Cleveland can't keep up with with larger market teams. The idea they can absorb such contracts and keep competing if they simply choose to is laughable. This isn't MLB (or Cleveland) in the 1990s, and this isn't Boston or New York. Even if they could afford Lindor's next contract they'd be competing just to finish ahead of KC for the next decade, as they'd be surrounding him with kids making the minimum.
Speaking of KC, Cleveland's ownership was screwed over when John Sherman's 20% stake was left in escrot after he left to purchase the Royals. He was expected to gradually become majority owner when he was part of Cleveland ownership. They're still searching for his replacement.
Under the Jacobs ownership, Cleveland popularized the approach of buying out young players' arbitration years + a year or two of free agency. That has continued to be the approach and has often worked, but it can't when a player like Lindor bets on himself.
Scaling back payroll in 2018 and 2019 while the window for a championship was open was cheap. Trading the top homegrown talents of the game before they walk away is the reality of MLB's broken financial markets.
Speaking of KC, Cleveland's ownership was screwed over when John Sherman's 20% stake was left in escrot after he left to purchase the Royals. He was expected to gradually become majority owner when he was part of Cleveland ownership. They're still searching for his replacement.
Under the Jacobs ownership, Cleveland popularized the approach of buying out young players' arbitration years + a year or two of free agency. That has continued to be the approach and has often worked, but it can't when a player like Lindor bets on himself.
Scaling back payroll in 2018 and 2019 while the window for a championship was open was cheap. Trading the top homegrown talents of the game before they walk away is the reality of MLB's broken financial markets.
Oh I totally agree with all of that. The wealthy owners should absolutely not be left off the hook for balking at investing in the team and collecting the sweet, sweet revenue sharing money. Unfortunately, and Cleveland is not the only example of this, teams in smaller markets hide behind the idea that since they are in the small market, they can't sign any of their own players to big contracts; even if it ignores the fact that the owners are incredibly wealthy and their teams make money hand over fist.
the Red Sox don't have the pitching nucleus the Mets & Padres do to really kickstart a competitive window. they're probably going to take a couple years to hopefully build that up, then be back.
I know. The Indians have lost so many home grown stars and others. Manny, Thome, the list just goes on. Vizquel stayed most of his career there at least. I really rooted for them over the Marlins in 97 and Braves in 95. Had they beat us in 07 I would have rooted strongly for them to beat the Rockies. That city has had the worst luck. They lose their football team only to see them win 2 Super Bowls in Baltimore. How close they have come only to see it taken away, like Lucy pulling the ball away from Charlie Brown.
This is unbelievable: Cleveland has two players remaining from the 2016 World Series team: Jose Ramirez and Roberto Perez. The only other player from 2017? Bradley Zimmer.
Belle, Manny, Thome. Then they got tired of getting jilted and being left empty handed, so they started trading them: Bartolo, CC, Cliff Lee, Victor, Bauer, Lindor.
Kenny Lofton was actually the first one who was traded a year prior to free agency for financial reasons, but he had an off year in Atlanta, missed Cleveland and did re-sign. He did leave later, but not because he was priced out of their market.
They also handcuffed team payroll when they decided to extend a second-tier star and fan favorite in Travis Hafner, which I think influenced the way they do business.
"FWIW, the Blue Jays were the runner-up for Francisco Lindor. Don't know specific players, but I'm told their offer had what is probably a higher ceiling yet was centered on long-term prospects. Cleveland chose the package from the Mets b/c it balanced short- and long-term help."
View: https://twitter.com/castrovince/status/1347633993676685312?s=21
View: https://twitter.com/castrovince/status/1347633993676685312?s=21
I saw someone speculate that this is more about the Indians being put up for sale after next season, which does make a ton of sense. Slash payroll to minimize losses in a year where (yeah) the optimism about having fans in the stands is getting lower and lower every day.