Analysis of Celtics Games (2020-2021)

Devizier

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Going back to the Gorman comments: they concern me because it’s the first inkling that this teams future isn’t in the hands of the Jays.
 

lexrageorge

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The Gorman comments are spot on. The team is nowhere good enough to withstand a lack of ball movement and defense; the J's aren't as good as they seem to think they are either. Tatum calling out Pritchard during a game is true bullshit. It's definitely not fixable this season either.

OTOH, I'm sometimes reminded of the Celtics under Walker and Pierce. Of course, one key difference is that the Celtics coaching was horrific, but, as much as I hate to give Pitino credit for anything, he was right that they were both really young during the "Larry Bird's not walking through that door" presser. We wondered at the time if Pierce was ever going to be the cornerstone of the next championship team. Tatum is 8 years younger than the 2008 Paul Pierce.
 

bigq

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OTOH, I'm sometimes reminded of the Celtics under Walker and Pierce.
On a similar note this year’s Celtics team is giving me mid 90s Dallas Mavericks vibes. Those teams had considerable young talent in Jason Kidd, Jimmy Jackson and Jamal Mashburn and not much of a roster beyond that. Those teams were a sieve on defense and perennially sub .500.

It is especially frustrating to see this Celtics team flounder because they have been a very good team in recent seasons and they have a good coach. It is clear that this team’s depth is really poor.
 

joe dokes

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Has anyone heard any updates on Smart’s status and his likely return?

I just saw where the Lakers just lost their 4th in a row, leaving them 5-5 without AD.

Now Smart is no AD, but I think his importance on this team is close to as critical.
I think a big issue, even on offense, is Smart's absence.
Smart has his flaws offensively, but I still think that, more often than not, he saw keeping the offense flowing/ball movement as a good end in itself. He isn't as good at it as Horford or Hayward, but I think he learned something from playing with them. Those two would be criticized for not shooting enough, but most of the time the non-shots were to serve the higher purpose of a better shot elsewhere -- even if it wasn't immediately after they made the pass. Smart isn't either of them, but he gets it, and so his absence is hurting on the offensive end, too.
 

Strike4

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Interesting stat from Grande:

View: https://twitter.com/seangrandepbp/status/1364842725170962438?s=21


The team is very young. Players get better, both physically and mentally. We’ll see how they respond. Gorman isn’t just some nobody who spouts off. He’s a cultural touchstone. This should really sting.
And I think in regard to the J's, who are still young but have a longer tenure, the fact that their roles on the team have evolved from "rising stars" to "team leaders who need to live up to star billing" adds to the issue. This takes time in any situation but with this roster construction and injuries it's even more difficult.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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And I think in regard to the J's, who are still young but have a longer tenure, the fact that their roles on the team have evolved from "rising stars" to "team leaders who need to live up to star billing" adds to the issue. This takes time in any situation but with this roster construction and injuries it's even more difficult.
I think you can take it one further. Yes both JT and JB are All-Stars - and deservedly so - but the next step from "rising stars" to "team leaders" to "top 10 player" is being able to make teammates better. As Scal discussed last night - yes, maybe the bench is thin but there's no evidence that JB/JT are doing much to lift them up (I believe Scal said, "They're not getting the bench 6-10 wide open looks a night").

To me, it's not a lost season. JB and JT have teams gunning for them and given their thin bench, when they drive, there are three or four guys with their feet in the paint. That's for two reasons: (i) most of the bench players do not scare anyone but also (ii) I'm sure other teams have discussed that most of the time when JB and JT are in the paint - excluding lobs to TL - they aren't going to pass.

For example, last night to start the 3Q I'm sure there was a directive from Brad to take the ball inside. JB and JT kept driving the hoop, which is good. And they got good looks. And they missed a bunch of layups, which were mostly semi-contested layups but certainly ones that it would have surprised no one to go in. But that entire time, the rest of the team is sitting around staring at them and the defenders got more tightly packed as the quarter went on.

Hopefully JB + JT can learn all this. It will make the game so much easier for them if they can make the game easier for their teammates.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I can almost guess what he's going to say. Bad roster is on me but guys still have to play harder. It's a weird season and coming off last season, it's been a lot. Will look into every avenue to improve but most of the improvement is going to have to come from inside. Didn't play Celtic basketball last night. Every confidence in Brad that he can fix this.

Etc.
 

Cellar-Door

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Who's doing that?
And this is also not an argument I've made, but is clearly aimed at me.

You can "fuck off with this bullshit"
As a note, this was not aimed at you, but another poster claiming TT is a 3rd string C and we should have used the MLE to sign a magical wing.

Though the underlying point is close enough, TT is a very valuable part of the team, and that's with everything going basically perfectly with the other 2 bigs, and the MLE wing options were almost all one of: signed by the time Hayward made his decision, more interested in other options, or bad. Between injuries and poor play our wing situation has been hit hard, but overall we still had more depth there than at the big spots, it just happens that TL is having a career best season and he and Theis have stayed healthy, while Tatum and Smart have missed time, Langford has had a slow recover, Nesmith started slow and all the bench swing/wings (GW, Semi, Green) have been worse than last year.
 

Auger34

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The Gorman comments are spot on. The team is nowhere good enough to withstand a lack of ball movement and defense; the J's aren't as good as they seem to think they are either. Tatum calling out Pritchard during a game is true bullshit. It's definitely not fixable this season either.

OTOH, I'm sometimes reminded of the Celtics under Walker and Pierce. Of course, one key difference is that the Celtics coaching was horrific, but, as much as I hate to give Pitino credit for anything, he was right that they were both really young during the "Larry Bird's not walking through that door" presser. We wondered at the time if Pierce was ever going to be the cornerstone of the next championship team. Tatum is 8 years younger than the 2008 Paul Pierce.
I posted this in the game thread last night and didn’t get nearly the amount of shit that I thought I would so I think I’ll post it here as well. As I said there, this does seem a lot like the Nomar Baskin Robbins story from back in the day but anyway...

I live in the Tampa area and during the Celtics first road trip to play the Raptors, Austin Ainge played golf at the course that I belong to. He was partnered with the teaching pro there, a friend of mine who’s from Maine and a big Celtic fan.
AA told my friend that the team has had to have “more than a few” conversations with Tatum about not dogging it and always playing hard, especially with his new contract and status within the team.
At the time, I thought it was kind of a weird comment because I had never really noticed JT giving a bad effort but since then I have paid more attention for it and you can definitely spot it. Add that up with Tatum’s awful body language (that’s something I think anyone can notice) and it does paint the picture of someone who’s not quite ready to be a leader but has been thrust into that role anyway.
 

Devizier

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As a note, this was not aimed at you, but another poster claiming TT is a 3rd string C and we should have used the MLE to sign a magical wing.
The big mistake fans make when evaluating free agency decisions is assuming that all you have to offer is the same money as whatever a guy signed for. It's probably more informative to role play from the free agent's perspective, consider their options, and why they might have made the decisions they made.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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PedroKsBambino

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That was yesterday, they guaranteed him. Which is the biggest indicator I have yet that they are just punting the season. He's not good at anything besides playing hard. I'm sure they could find another player that would help the team more with that roster spot.
I'd guess it is as much about the salary slot which they might use in a trade as the player. Though I agree keeping him was a mistake in the offseason.
 

Cellar-Door

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That was yesterday, they guaranteed him. Which is the biggest indicator I have yet that they are just punting the season. He's not good at anything besides playing hard. I'm sure they could find another player that would help the team more with that roster spot.
Could they? Go take a look at the unsigned players.... it's dire. He's there to be traded or cut in a TPE trade or when a buyout comes along, his value is he plays hard on D and that's all you usually ask for in your deep bench guys.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Could they? Go take a look at the unsigned players.... it's dire. He's there to be traded or cut in a TPE trade or when a buyout comes along, his value is he plays hard on D and that's all you usually ask for in your deep bench guys.
Both Glenn Robinson III and Shaq Harrison were waived and are demonstrably better, legit NBA players (which Green is not). But they don't really make a difference in the big picture, not sure it is worthwhile.
 

Mooch

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How in the world do you allow a team to shoot 55% from three in a game? The perimeter defense is beyond awful right now without Marcus and it sure doesn't look like Brad has any answers right now.
 

DJnVa

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The Gorman comments are spot on. The team is nowhere good enough to withstand a lack of ball movement and defense; the J's aren't as good as they seem to think they are either. Tatum calling out Pritchard during a game is true bullshit. It's definitely not fixable this season either.
I'd quibble with the "definitely not fixable this season". Of course it is.

Will it be? That's open for debate.
 

Auger34

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So if they’re not using the giant TPE this season, what salary level can they realistically acquire? Without trading a key contributor the most would be about $7 mil I believe?
If that’s the case, then I think this team is what it is sadly.
 

reggiecleveland

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Believes team is lacking confidence and resolve *
“I still am a believer that our team can make a run.”
* “It’s a me problem.”
* Goes to bat for Brad. “This is a Danny Ainge, + our player commitment issue more than anything else
Seeing Danny use "resolve" and "commitment" are bad signs. Basically saying the team is soft and lazy.
Absolving Brad, and baloming himself is 'I assembles a soft lazy team."
 

Cesar Crespo

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I see a lot of people making excuses but the team is just not very good after the top 4, and 2 of them have been hobbled (Smart, Kemba).

The team could be very good next year with the growth of PP, TL, AN and the young guys but they aren't there yet.

This team is build like a lottery team that is just starting to win some games and may sneak into the playoffs because their stars took a leap and a few other young players are looking promising.

How many playoff teams would Semi and Grant be playing 20 minutes a night for? This team is severely flawed. Of course, 1 player in the NBA can cure all those flaws so it's never as dire as it seems. Missing that 1 player is the difference between winning 50% of your games or winning 66% of them.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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That was yesterday, they guaranteed him. Which is the biggest indicator I have yet that they are just punting the season. He's not good at anything besides playing hard. I'm sure they could find another player that would help the team more with that roster spot.
Thanks. Hard to keep track of days these days!
 

bakahump

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yeaaaaaahhhh.

Danny going to bat doesnt inspire me. Or should I say it worries me that there is some bitching about the coach which this is (in part) meant to squelch.

Anyone else catch the twitter or insta about the "Fight" last night. evidently during Tatums Q+A some mics caught some "chairs being thrown" and Brad yelling "Stop".

I would post but my boy told me about and showed me the video. Its up for interpretation but something was going on.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Has anyone heard any updates on Smart’s status and his likely return?

I just saw where the Lakers just lost their 4th in a row, leaving them 5-5 without AD.

Now Smart is no AD, but I think his importance on this team is close to as critical.
They were 5-1 without AD prior to missing Schroeder over their last 4 games, all losses. This Celtics team REALLY misses Smart for similar reasons the Lakers miss Schroeder, the replacements do not provide any firepower or shot creation resulting in bad shots forced up against the 24 clock.

More people need to recognize that an offense doesn’t get into its set until about 17-18 remaining on the clock and only has 10-12 seconds to create a scoring opportunity. If a good shot isn’t created in the first 10-12 seconds the ball generally ends up in your best scorers hands with 5-6 seconds to get off “a” shot. Having the ball touching non-scorers hands during the 10-12 seconds of action undermines your entire set and places the offense in a severe disadvantage. So when Tatum is rushing a shot against the clock out initial reaction is to blame him for joy creating a good shot, being in iso, etc......when the real blame belongs to the players who failed to execute during the 10-12 sec window prior to Tatum going into iso. Yes, there are times when both of this is on Tatum but generally when you have players on the floor without any shot attempts there is a problem with that players offense and/or the overall scheme.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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More people need to recognize that an offense doesn’t get into its set until about 17-18 remaining on the clock and only has 10-12 seconds to create a scoring opportunity. If a good shot isn’t created in the first 10-12 seconds the ball generally ends up in your best scorers hands with 5-6 seconds to get off “a” shot. Having the ball touching non-scorers hands during the 10-12 seconds of action undermines your entire set and places the offense in a severe disadvantage. So when Tatum is rushing a shot against the clock out initial reaction is to blame him for joy creating a good shot, being in iso, etc......when the real blame belongs to the players who failed to execute during the 10-12 sec window prior to Tatum going into iso. Yes, there are times when both of this is on Tatum but generally when you have players on the floor without any shot attempts there is a problem with that players offense and/or the overall scheme.
I don't agree with all of this, but I'd like to focus on the bolded. I don't have statistical data to back this up because I'm not sure there is a way to actually quantify this, but it seems to me that the times where the Celtics have the most success on offense, including when these non-scorers are sharing the floor with the scorers, are when they play with pace and intent. Stretches of games where they are badly outplayed and outhustled always coincide with low energy and a lack of urgency. Further exacerbating this is there are no "easy" buckets in transition because the defense has been putrid and is not turning teams over at the rate they are capable of. "Point" Tatum walking the ball up the court, narrowly avoiding an 8 second violation on a majority of trips, and asking a big to set a pick 38' from the basket with wings cemented in the corners for spacing/bail outs for drive & kick almost always results in a terrible possession, regardless of outcome, because the defense is set, the offensive scheme is vanilla and predictable, and Tatum a) doesn't find the open man often enough and b) doesn't trust them enough to go back to them if they don't execute. How does that not crater the "non-scorers" confidence? I'm going to shake my fist at clouds a bit with this take, but after watching every minute of every game this season, no statistical analysis will change what my eyes are telling me. This team often plays slow, Tatum is a stopper, and they do not get the defense into rotation frequently enough to generate open looks that even "non-scorer" NBA players can hit an acceptable percentage of.
 

Deathofthebambino

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They were 5-1 without AD prior to missing Schroeder over their last 4 games, all losses. This Celtics team REALLY misses Smart for similar reasons the Lakers miss Schroeder, the replacements do not provide any firepower or shot creation resulting in bad shots forced up against the 24 clock.

More people need to recognize that an offense doesn’t get into its set until about 17-18 remaining on the clock and only has 10-12 seconds to create a scoring opportunity. If a good shot isn’t created in the first 10-12 seconds the ball generally ends up in your best scorers hands with 5-6 seconds to get off “a” shot. Having the ball touching non-scorers hands during the 10-12 seconds of action undermines your entire set and places the offense in a severe disadvantage. So when Tatum is rushing a shot against the clock out initial reaction is to blame him for joy creating a good shot, being in iso, etc......when the real blame belongs to the players who failed to execute during the 10-12 sec window prior to Tatum going into iso. Yes, there are times when both of this is on Tatum but generally when you have players on the floor without any shot attempts there is a problem with that players offense and/or the overall scheme.
I talked about this last night repeatedly in the game thread. There is no offense, there is no set. The C's come down the floor, and 2 guys go to each corner, one guy goes to the wing (all 3 of whom are behind the arc) and they just stand there twiddling their thumbs. The person bringing up the ball holds for a few seconds, sometimes more, and waits for the "big" that isn't named Theis (because he's usually waiting in a corner to chuck a 3 that he's missed 15 of his last 16 times) to set a pick. If that doesnt' work, then one of the guys standing around comes and takes a handoff and throws up a shot.

That's it. That's the entire offense right now. There is nobody ever cutting across the basket, nobody cutting on the baseline, no movement at all from basically anyone outside the PnR duo. Atlanta wasn't doing much differently, running a lot of PnR's to get Trae open, but underneath, they are constantly moving, constantly setting off-ball screens, constantly working to get the guys open on the 3 point line. 3 of our shooters are almost never going to be open, because they are just standing around. It's over and over and over and over again, the same thing. This isn't a confidence issue, it's not a trust issue, it's a lack of any sort of ball movement/player movement issue, and it's so damn predictable.

Edit: I knew how to work the interwebs, I'd go find a specific play from last night that I pointed out when Tatum made a 3 pointer. He brought the ball up quickly (which is rare), never passed it, and made a step back 3 off the PnR with about 15 seconds on the shot clock. If he had missed, there would have been 4 Hawks there to get the board, because not one one player on the C's, including the pick-setter, ever made it inside the 3 point line. They ran down the court ahead of Tatum, ran to their pre-ordained spots 30 feet from the hoop and did nothing.
 

nighthob

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Luckily they’ll be adding Cade Cunningham in the draft (only half kidding kidding, depressingly I need to start doing a deep dive on the lottery players these days).
 

Cesar Crespo

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That would be something to just miss the playoffs and then get incredibly lucky in the lottery and land a top 3 pick. It'd be especially something since they have that huge TPE too.
 

tbrown_01923

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its not Javonte. its javonte, carsen, waters... teague (he has been okay in "break glass" capacity, but i suspect they thought he might have a bit more). There is not a player at the end of the bench that has a sinlge elite skill (beyond javontes athleticism). Not sniper to turn to. No stopper to turn to. And nobody who excels at creating for others.

The middle of the roster ain't great either. AN and RL are young and learning (well in theory. RL hasn't played). I don't mind Semi or Grant - but as 10/11 guys you turn to depending on matchups.

The roster is terrible. so much depended on Hayward
 

reggiecleveland

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Having the ball touching non-scorers hands during the 10-12 seconds of action undermines your entire set and places the offense in a severe disadvantage.
I flipped around and was enjoying the Lakers lose, but during a timeout you I Lebron telling some schmuck "You gotta shoot that, that's your shot man." It just struck me that the GOAT does that while our neophyte all stars don't.

The other team dictates what you do. You can't ignore the other players. Just to take an example of a team scoring at will, Atlanta had pretty much everyone touching the ball in the 12 seconds. It's the NBA all five guys have to be able to do something. When they are going well they are making 3s, from multiple guys. Teams are defending the Celtics as if 3 of the five guys are non scorers. To stop the Cs teams drop off of the other guys, clog up Tatum, Brown.

Danny mentioned confidence and resolve. Chicken or the egg are others not cutting because they don't get passed to a lot or not getting passed to because of bad movement. Doesn't really matter why, result is the same, guys standing around. The Js, as stars need to take the blame. This is bad teams blues. They commit to a gameplan for about 5 minutes. So many times guys don't even square, they are just looking to get the ball back to J1, J2, and Kemba. Teams are not letting Timelord hand it back to the scorer because they know he has no other intent. Nesmith is crapping his pants trying to get it back to tatum half the time. He gets out there with the other scrubs and starts drilling shots. When was the last time we happily posted "ball movement!" in a game thread after 3,4 passes and a wide open shot?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I talked about this last night repeatedly in the game thread. There is no offense, there is no set. The C's come down the floor, and 2 guys go to each corner, one guy goes to the wing (all 3 of whom are behind the arc) and they just stand there twiddling their thumbs. The person bringing up the ball holds for a few seconds, sometimes more, and waits for the "big" that isn't named Theis (because he's usually waiting in a corner to chuck a 3 that he's missed 15 of his last 16 times) to set a pick. If that doesnt' work, then one of the guys standing around comes and takes a handoff and throws up a shot.

That's it. That's the entire offense right now. There is nobody ever cutting across the basket, nobody cutting on the baseline, no movement at all from basically anyone outside the PnR duo. Atlanta wasn't doing much differently, running a lot of PnR's to get Trae open, but underneath, they are constantly moving, constantly setting off-ball screens, constantly working to get the guys open on the 3 point line. 3 of our shooters are almost never going to be open, because they are just standing around. It's over and over and over and over again, the same thing. This isn't a confidence issue, it's not a trust issue, it's a lack of any sort of ball movement/player movement issue, and it's so damn predictable.

Edit: I knew how to work the interwebs, I'd go find a specific play from last night that I pointed out when Tatum made a 3 pointer. He brought the ball up quickly (which is rare), never passed it, and made a step back 3 off the PnR with about 15 seconds on the shot clock. If he had missed, there would have been 4 Hawks there to get the board, because not one one player on the C's, including the pick-setter, ever made it inside the 3 point line. They ran down the court ahead of Tatum, ran to their pre-ordained spots 30 feet from the hoop and did nothing.
That's not the offense. That's what JT does and one thing I agree with you - I hope someone is breaking this down - that from my limited viewing and memory, the scoring efficiency on plays where JT is the only person who touches the ball is pretty low.

That being said, Brad's offense is designed for the ball to move side-to-side. That can't happen without other people touching the ball. We've all seen it in years past. It's not like Brad forgot how to coach basketball.

At the end of the day, I think a lot of it is that JB and JT think, "Man we need a bucket. I'm going to go get us a bucket." That's a scorer's mentality. But it's different from a PG mentality of, "Man, I got get other people involved."
 

Strike4

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“I still am a believer that our team can make a run.”

Despite the poor play of late, I don't disagree with this. Given the playoff standings it's not hard to see the Celtics landing, say, the 6th seed and getting into the second round*.

*Second round would depend on healthy returning Marcus Smart and a 3/4 strength Kemba Walker.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't agree with all of this, but I'd like to focus on the bolded. I don't have statistical data to back this up because I'm not sure there is a way to actually quantify this, but it seems to me that the times where the Celtics have the most success on offense, including when these non-scorers are sharing the floor with the scorers, are when they play with pace and intent. Stretches of games where they are badly outplayed and outhustled always coincide with low energy and a lack of urgency. Further exacerbating this is there are no "easy" buckets in transition because the defense has been putrid and is not turning teams over at the rate they are capable of. "Point" Tatum walking the ball up the court, narrowly avoiding an 8 second violation on a majority of trips, and asking a big to set a pick 38' from the basket with wings cemented in the corners for spacing/bail outs for drive & kick almost always results in a terrible possession, regardless of outcome, because the defense is set, the offensive scheme is vanilla and predictable, and Tatum a) doesn't find the open man often enough and b) doesn't trust them enough to go back to them if they don't execute. How does that not crater the "non-scorers" confidence? I'm going to shake my fist at clouds a bit with this take, but after watching every minute of every game this season, no statistical analysis will change what my eyes are telling me. This team often plays slow, Tatum is a stopper, and they do not get the defense into rotation frequently enough to generate open looks that even "non-scorer" NBA players can hit an acceptable percentage of.
Yes, virtually every offense will be more effective with Pace as it creates advantage however I’m referring specifically to possessions following a basket when the ball cannot be inbounded quickly and the defense is set thus negating the Pace advantage. I should have been more clear.

Brads teams, with the exception of Prime Isaiah, have never played at fast Paces primarily due to the personnel. This year, with the two bigs, we are almost certain to be among the slowest pace teams in the league. Again.....personnel.
 
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benhogan

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As a note, this was not aimed at you, but another poster claiming TT is a 3rd string C and we should have used the MLE to sign a magical wing.

TT is a very valuable part of the team and that's with everything going basically perfectly with the other 2 bigs,
and the MLE wing options were almost all one of: signed by the time Hayward made his decision, more interested in other options, or bad. Between injuries and poor play our wing situation has been hit hard, but overall we still had more depth there than at the big spots, it just happens that TL is having a career best season and he and Theis have stayed healthy, while Tatum and Smart have missed time, Langford has had a slow recover, Nesmith started slow and all the bench swing/wings (GW, Semi, Green) have been worse than last year.
Now you are trolling me? OK, I'll stand by TT being this team's 3rd string/best Center (now and pre-season).

Tristan Thompson is a "very valuable" part of a 15-17 team? That is laughable.
 

reggiecleveland

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Yes, virtually every offense will be more effective with Pace as it creates advantageS however I’m referring specifically to possessions following a basket when the ball cannot be inbounded quickly and the defense is set thus negating the Pace advantage. I should have been more clear.
More than pace, I think everyone being a threat, is an issue. The Cs have three ball stoppers. How often do Tatum or Brown just swing the ball.
 

PedroKsBambino

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They don't pass or move without the ball well, which are related. And because of those, their non-threats (Semi for the most part, Green, Edwards, often the second big on the court when they use two, etc.) don't become threats by moving to the basket on actions and the lack of shooting is amplified because guys don't get open.

Would love to see the motion and passing, as they are capable of it...they just don't do it consistently. The shooting is a roster problem, though playing Nesmith more would help
 

Deathofthebambino

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That's not the offense. That's what JT does and one thing I agree with you - I hope someone is breaking this down - that from my limited viewing and memory, the scoring efficiency on plays where JT is the only person who touches the ball is pretty low.

That being said, Brad's offense is designed for the ball to move side-to-side. That can't happen without other people touching the ball. We've all seen it in years past. It's not like Brad forgot how to coach basketball.

At the end of the day, I think a lot of it is that JB and JT think, "Man we need a bucket. I'm going to go get us a bucket." That's a scorer's mentality. But it's different from a PG mentality of, "Man, I got get other people involved."
It's not just JT. It's the same thing when Kemba brings the ball up the court. The big comes out to set a screen, the other 3 players stand around at the 3 point line, and then when Kemba needs someone to pass to, one of the wings (usually JT or JB) comes over and takes the handoff, and then they run another PnR, lather, rinse, repeat.

It's the off ball movement that is basically non-existent. There is nothing going on down low, there is nothing going on at the baseline, etc. This is why a few nights ago, I was in the game thread extolling the virtues of the offense in the early part of the game because they were flashing TT to the free throw line, and then Tatum and Brown were getting inside on the block, and taking a feed from TT. It led to two easy layups in the first like 3 minutes of the game. As far as I can tell, they never ran it again. Like I said, watch any other team off the ball, and watch their movement, and then watch the C's. It's night and day.

It's also why guys like Nesmith never get open looks unless it's from a drive and kick. Whereas a guy like Gallo is getting open looks all over the court even without a drive and kick. It's why Golden State gets Curry open looks constantly, because he's always moving.

How do you move the ball from side to side, when the guys on the sides aren't actually moving, so their defenders are constantly up in their face denying the pass?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I flipped around and was enjoying the Lakers lose, but during a timeout you I Lebron telling some schmuck "You gotta shoot that, that's your shot man." It just struck me that the GOAT does that while our neophyte all stars don't.

The other team dictates what you do. You can't ignore the other players. Just to take an example of a team scoring at will, Atlanta had pretty much everyone touching the ball in the 12 seconds. It's the NBA all five guys have to be able to do something. When they are going well they are making 3s, from multiple guys. Teams are defending the Celtics as if 3 of the five guys are non scorers. To stop the Cs teams drop off of the other guys, clog up Tatum, Brown.

Danny mentioned confidence and resolve. Chicken or the egg are others not cutting because they don't get passed to a lot or not getting passed to because of bad movement. Doesn't really matter why, result is the same, guys standing around. The Js, as stars need to take the blame. This is bad teams blues. They commit to a gameplan for about 5 minutes. So many times guys don't even square, they are just looking to get the ball back to J1, J2, and Kemba. Teams are not letting Timelord hand it back to the scorer because they know he has no other intent. Nesmith is crapping his pants trying to get it back to tatum half the time. He gets out there with the other scrubs and starts drilling shots. When was the last time we happily posted "ball movement!" in a game thread after 3,4 passes and a wide open shot?
Agree with all of this and it’s why I feel certain that there are trust issues between our best players and complementary players. Sometimes we overthink things.....every team runs the same stuff; there is no magical NBA offensive “system” and the personnel is going to determine the results. Teams will look to play with Pace.....unless they play two bigs and their best players are iso/PNR guys.

It’s like being the worst player(s) in a pickup game growing up......the best players will have the ball and freeze out the teammates they don’t trust/have confidence in. When Death speaks about us not running sets and going directly into iso there are reasons why these teammates like Grant, Nesmith, Javonte, etc are being frozen out and bogging down the offense......they are those players in the pick up game that the best players don’t trust. And it affects the entire offense.....hence the need to upgrade the personnel to provide players that Tatum and Jaylen and Kemba trust. That’s an offensive upgrade at any level of basketball.
 

HomeRunBaker

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More than pace, I think everyone being a threat, is an issue. The Cs have three ball stoppers. How often do Tatum or Brown just swing the ball.
Yes, this is my primary point. I was addressing the specific issue of our personnel on the floor and why we don’t play with Pace.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's not just JT. It's the same thing when Kemba brings the ball up the court. The big comes out to set a screen, the other 3 players stand around at the 3 point line, and then when Kemba needs someone to pass to, one of the wings (usually JT or JB) comes over and takes the handoff, and then they run another PnR, lather, rinse, repeat.

It's the off ball movement that is basically non-existent. There is nothing going on down low, there is nothing going on at the baseline, etc. This is why a few nights ago, I was in the game thread extolling the virtues of the offense in the early part of the game because they were flashing TT to the free throw line, and then Tatum and Brown were getting inside on the block, and taking a feed from TT. It led to two easy layups in the first like 3 minutes of the game. As far as I can tell, they never ran it again. Like I said, watch any other team off the ball, and watch their movement, and then watch the C's. It's night and day.

It's also why guys like Nesmith never get open looks unless it's from a drive and kick. Whereas a guy like Gallo is getting open looks all over the court even without a drive and kick. It's why Golden State gets Curry open looks constantly, because he's always moving.

How do you move the ball from side to side, when the guys on the sides aren't actually moving, so their defenders are constantly up in their face denying the pass?
This is implying that Gallo and Nesmith are capable of making the same reads and understanding when to slide into certain spots based on what the ball handler/defense are doing. It is also implying that the ball handlers trust Nesmith to know how to properly react as someone like Gallo would.

Let me ask this.....do you feel that Gallo would respond the same way as a Nesmith if he was in his place and would Kemba/Tatum trust Gallo to know how to properly react to their movements with the ball? Finally, would Gallo play 21 minutes in a game with this lineup and fail to take one shot?
 

Jimbodandy

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I flipped around and was enjoying the Lakers lose, but during a timeout you I Lebron telling some schmuck "You gotta shoot that, that's your shot man." It just struck me that the GOAT does that while our neophyte all stars don't.

The other team dictates what you do. You can't ignore the other players. Just to take an example of a team scoring at will, Atlanta had pretty much everyone touching the ball in the 12 seconds. It's the NBA all five guys have to be able to do something. When they are going well they are making 3s, from multiple guys. Teams are defending the Celtics as if 3 of the five guys are non scorers. To stop the Cs teams drop off of the other guys, clog up Tatum, Brown.

Danny mentioned confidence and resolve. Chicken or the egg are others not cutting because they don't get passed to a lot or not getting passed to because of bad movement. Doesn't really matter why, result is the same, guys standing around. The Js, as stars need to take the blame. This is bad teams blues. They commit to a gameplan for about 5 minutes. So many times guys don't even square, they are just looking to get the ball back to J1, J2, and Kemba. Teams are not letting Timelord hand it back to the scorer because they know he has no other intent. Nesmith is crapping his pants trying to get it back to tatum half the time. He gets out there with the other scrubs and starts drilling shots. When was the last time we happily posted "ball movement!" in a game thread after 3,4 passes and a wide open shot?
This is all 100% correct.

Not to give JT and JB a pass here, but everyone needs to be aggressive. That's not what we're seeing. We see a guy make a smart cut to the basket for an easy look about every other game.

I love that the Js are learning to find other guys, especially as it was a weak spot for JB in particular. But the other guys on offense are acting like they're just happy to be there.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This is all 100% correct.

Not to give JT and JB a pass here, but everyone needs to be aggressive. That's not what we're seeing. We see a guy make a smart cut to the basket for an easy look about every other game.

I love that the Js are learning to find other guys, especially as it was a weak spot for JB in particular. But the other guys on offense are acting like they're just happy to be there.
Your post illustrates why Ainge specifically used the words “dynamic” and “subservient” in response to the needs and weakness of his secondary players.
 

Deathofthebambino

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This is implying that Gallo and Nesmith are capable of making the same reads and understanding when to slide into certain spots based on what the ball handler/defense are doing. It is also implying that the ball handlers trust Nesmith to know how to properly react as someone like Gallo would.

Let me ask this.....do you feel that Gallo would respond the same way as a Nesmith if he was in his place and would Kemba/Tatum trust Gallo to know how to properly react to their movements with the ball? Finally, would Gallo play 21 minutes in a game with this lineup and fail to take one shot?
If Gallo had a usage rate of 12.2% like Nesmith does, then yeah, I could see him having a game his rookie year where he didn't take a shot in 21 minutes. But he's never had a usage rate below 16.0% (his rookie year). Nesmith is currently touching the ball on offense less than any other Celtic besides Semi (11.8%). Shit, when Tacko is in the game, he has a higher usage rate than Nesmith. If you think Nesmith doesn't have a shooter's mentality or know how to get some space, we'll just have to agree to disagree. He managed to figure out how to get 8 3PA per game at Vandy last year, and made what, over 50% of them? And apparently, he's now forgotten how to slide over into position fo a shot?

They aren't moving around at all. And to be clear, I'm not blaming JT or JB for this, I'm blaming Brad. The next time I see a screen down low off the ball to get a guy free (aside from an inbounds play), might be the 10th time I've seen one all year. They literally stand around and let JT/JB/Kemba do their thing, and hope their man drops down to double a drive, and then hope that one of those guys kicks it out to them. That's it. That's pretty much the job of Semi/Grant/Nesmith/PP/Theis, etc. when they are in the game. If they aren't cutting when they should be, or aren't running screens when they should be, then Brad should bench them. Simple as that, but I think this is the offense that Brad wants to run. And if JT/JB are supposed to be passing the ball around the horn to get an open look, and they aren't, they need to be benched too. But from where i sit, that's not what the issue is, the issue is the offense has no movement. By design.

This is solely about the half court offense. Most of Gallo's shots yesterday came on Atlanta pushing the ball up, or terrifyingly bad defense by the C's that left him wide open. There is a link below to all of his points. If Nesmith got that many open looks in a game, I'd bet money he'd score 20. I don't know where to find the stats right now, but I'd be shocked if the C's weren't near the bottom of the league in the number of passes and/or number of different players touching the ball in the halfcourt offense, and IMO, it's not because guys are being selfish, it's because the offense isn't doing anything to get other guys open looks. Shit, they aren't even really doing much of anything to get their big 3 open looks, never mind the rest of the team. That's why we constantly hear that it feels like an absolute chore to get a basket on the offensive end, while on defense, it looks like opposing players are doing just about anything they want.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSp1qQeJ4ho
 

lexrageorge

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Nesmith taking 0 shots in a single game is far less a Nesmith problem. It's a problem with the structure of the team's offense, which is the fault of either Tatum and Brown and/or Coach Brad. Nesmith was doing OK in the games running up to the one against Dallas. Seems like Tatum doesn't like someone else taking shots, period.