Kemba 2021: The Jour-knee Begins

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,112
Santa Monica
Yeah, the problem there is that that doesn't optimize Kemba's health, which is the other key variable in making him moveable.
Yea Kemba has to continue to be load-managed this year.

Brad will have to play the bench :eek: he's done more with less in previous seasons
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,159
Watching the game last night, and in a game where Kemba had a good game - maybe even a great game, I'm starting to feel like he's just not a great fit for this team. He's very ball dominant and spends a good bit of time dribbling around not really getting other people involved. Also, rightly or wrongly, the Celtics really like to play him at the off-guard position and have another ballhandler on the floor (last night it was PP or Jeff Teague, last season it was often Brad Wannamaker). That creates problems because now you are pretty much forced to have two 6' guys on the floor who are going to have problems against most players in the NBA. If he's sharing the floor with Marcus Smart it's much less of an issue, of course. But, I feel like the NBA is moving towards having ~4 really switchable 6'-6" - 6'10" guys on the floor all the time, and Kemba obviously doesn't fit that demographic. On defense, I think he tries hard and is excellent at drawing charges, but is it just me or does he end up being switched on to a >6'10" guy constantly? Maybe it's because the Celtics don't have particularly offensively gifted bigs, but I feel like I don't see that happening much on the other end of the floor.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,495
On defense, I think he tries hard and is excellent at drawing charges, but is it just me or does he end up being switched on to a >6'10" guy constantly? Maybe it's because the Celtics don't have particularly offensively gifted bigs, but I feel like I don't see that happening much on the other end of the floor.
Yes he gets switched on to bigs all the time; kind of a no-brainer from other team's perspective.

In Brad's scheme he is supposed to be switched out or get help once big starts to make a move.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
He’s 7’3” with a laundry list of injures and was last really healthy his second year. Dallas is probably stuck with him due to the contract (he has approximately 3/102 left after this season), because I can’t imagine getting anything more than salary relief at this point.
Yeah you know it’s a red flag when the Knicks don’t want to pay the guy. Cuban has always been fascinated with writing very large checks to very tall human beings over the years. I should make a list.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,426
Watching the game last night, and in a game where Kemba had a good game - maybe even a great game, I'm starting to feel like he's just not a great fit for this team. He's very ball dominant and spends a good bit of time dribbling around not really getting other people involved. Also, rightly or wrongly, the Celtics really like to play him at the off-guard position and have another ballhandler on the floor (last night it was PP or Jeff Teague, last season it was often Brad Wannamaker). That creates problems because now you are pretty much forced to have two 6' guys on the floor who are going to have problems against most players in the NBA. If he's sharing the floor with Marcus Smart it's much less of an issue, of course. But, I feel like the NBA is moving towards having ~4 really switchable 6'-6" - 6'10" guys on the floor all the time, and Kemba obviously doesn't fit that demographic. On defense, I think he tries hard and is excellent at drawing charges, but is it just me or does he end up being switched on to a >6'10" guy constantly? Maybe it's because the Celtics don't have particularly offensively gifted bigs, but I feel like I don't see that happening much on the other end of the floor.
Dude was made to run his own 5. I know hes a good dude and a leader, but if the starting 5 get frustrated with him because of playstyle, all those intangibles go out the window.

I've been saying all season that I felt people were too quick to blame his knee for all his problems. Hes not where he needs to be, but I'm smelling vindication. Kemba running the second unit makes too much sense for this roster. Let him control the flow, play against 2nd units, and find his groove. He may not be psyched, but he can still get 25-30 mph, and when hes hack to being "Kemba", his issues go out the window.

I know this isnt news to people here, obviously. But if this team is going to make a run, fixing Kembas role is a big part of it.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
Dude was made to run his own 5. I know hes a good dude and a leader, but if the starting 5 get frustrated with him because of playstyle, all those intangibles go out the window.

I've been saying all season that I felt people were too quick to blame his knee for all his problems. Hes not where he needs to be, but I'm smelling vindication. Kemba running the second unit makes too much sense for this roster. Let him control the flow, play against 2nd units, and find his groove. He may not be psyched, but he can still get 25-30 mph, and when hes hack to being "Kemba", his issues go out the window.

I know this isnt news to people here, obviously. But if this team is going to make a run, fixing Kembas role is a big part of it.
Yup. I would love to see PP and Kemba flip roles but it just won’t happen. You can’t have 3 guys dribbling the ball into the ground like we do when Kemba, Tatum, and Jaylen are all out there. Kemba is most effective when looking for his shot and there are plenty of shots available in 2nd unit.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,671
I can't believe people think this team would be better if we started Pritchard. After last night, of all games.
 

Light-Tower-Power

ask me about My Pillow
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
15,947
Nashua, NH
Well, maybe Kemba isn't totally cooked after all, but there certainly seems to be a pretty strong correlation between multiple days off and his effectiveness. His two best games, last night and the other day against Atlanta at home, were after two days off. He hasn't looked good playing every other night yet. The rest of the week is every other night so it'll be interesting to see how he looks.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
I can't believe people think this team would be better if we started Pritchard. After last night, of all games.
Yeah, I don’t really get it. For the playoffs you want your best players on the court as much as possible and for now we need to see if Kemba can get to the point where last night is the norm, not the pleasant exception. He’s never been a great distributor, but he has nice chemistry in the PnR with Theis, pairs well with Smart, and he knows the Jays better than the rook. Plus, Pritchard is developing nice chemistry with Time Lord, and playing him with Teague against opposing second units can actually create some offense. Weakening your top unit to bolster the bench is very rarely a good strategy.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,743
Rotten Apple
Honestly thought the days of 30-point games were behind him so that was great to see. It wasn't just about hitting the open shots, he was able to finish at the rim. Hopefully he has literally turned the corner.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
Yeah, I don’t really get it. For the playoffs you want your best players on the court as much as possible and for now we need to see if Kemba can get to the point where last night is the norm, not the pleasant exception. He’s never been a great distributor, but he has nice chemistry in the PnR with Theis, pairs well with Smart, and he knows the Jays better than the rook. Plus, Pritchard is developing nice chemistry with Time Lord, and playing him with Teague against opposing second units can actually create some offense. Weakening your top unit to bolster the bench is very rarely a good strategy.
Counterpoint is that he weakens the defense and the team is at its best when the ball moves. And sometimes with Kemba, it doesn’t. I’m glad he played well last night but he’s had several games where he’s been complete trash. And he still has to miss games to manage the knee. You could easily test out this idea on the nights of Kemba’s scheduled rest to see how he does. It would also be predicated on PP playing like he did pre-Kemba and Smart returning.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,159
I can't believe people think this team would be better if we started Pritchard. After last night, of all games.
I think the point is more around who Kemba should be playing with, not necessarily the amount of minutes.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
Honestly thought the days of 30-point games were behind him so that was great to see. It wasn't just about hitting the open shots, he was able to finish at the rim. Hopefully he has literally turned the corner.
Yeah, it looked like that stop-on-dime-and-go, either to the rack or to the step back jumper, that has defined his game since UCONN was back last night.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,671
Yeah, I don’t really get it. For the playoffs you want your best players on the court as much as possible and for now we need to see if Kemba can get to the point where last night is the norm, not the pleasant exception. He’s never been a great distributor, but he has nice chemistry in the PnR with Theis, pairs well with Smart, and he knows the Jays better than the rook. Plus, Pritchard is developing nice chemistry with Time Lord, and playing him with Teague against opposing second units can actually create some offense. Weakening your top unit to bolster the bench is very rarely a good strategy.
It's also like....look at the game last night? The Celtics came out flat as a pancake and quickly got down by double figures, with neither of the Js doing anything. Coming out of the timeout, Kemba basically single-handily tied the game up with his shot-making and passing; and he even forced a steal that led to a fast-break basket. Later in the fourth quarter, the Pacers had cut down the Celtics lead to one and Kemba made a couple big baskets to bump the lead up to a few possessions and sealed the win.

The criticism of Kemba playing off-ball is truly off-base to me. Getting him the ball in dribble hand-offs is clearly a design to get him the ball in a favorable matchup, and also set him up to get a head of steam to go to the basket. It is the kind of play you run for someone you think can get buckets, and while it has been frustrating at times this season, the Celtics clearly need Kemba to get buckets. I wish they did more of that action with point Tatum, instead of letting him get trapped 40 feet from the basket.

When he is sharing the floor with PP or Teague, the reason that is done is so that the Celtics have a little bit of offensive spark if one/both of the Js sit. Yes, you are giving up size on the defensive end, but the idea is that will be made up for the fact that you can score more on offense. If you aren't playing Teague/PP with Kemba, that means you are playing one of our offensively limited wings (Green, Semi, Grant). Ideally Nesmith/Langford/Acquisition TBA will solve that problem, but it's just the reality of this team's current rotation.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that Pritchard is better than the version of Kemba we saw last night. Of course it isn't close.

Pritchard has some promise but his main value to the team at the moment is that the ball moves pretty well with him in there, he's a good shooter, and he doesn't suck. He is good at probing the defense and facilitating a team game more than anyone else on the roster and he can help space the floor.

If you are going to play Kemba 30ish minutes and Pritchard 20ish minutes, it does make sense to prioritize Kemba's minutes with the bench guys and PP more with the Jays. Regardless who is actually starting, Kemba spending half his minutes helping out our crappy bench would be nice.

When Smart comes back and shakes off the rust this might become less of an issue as PP's minutes will probably trend lower.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that Pritchard is better than the version of Kemba we saw last night. Of course it isn't close.

Pritchard has some promise but his main value to the team at the moment is that the ball moves pretty well with him in there, he's a good shooter, and he doesn't suck. He is good at probing the defense and facilitating a team game more than anyone else on the roster and he can help space the floor.

If you are going to play Kemba 30ish minutes and Pritchard 20ish minutes, it does make sense to prioritize Kemba's minutes with the bench guys and PP more with the Jays. Regardless who is actually starting, Kemba spending half his minutes helping out our crappy bench would be nice.

When Smart comes back and shakes off the rust this might become less of an issue as PP's minutes will probably trend lower.
This seams like the disconnect. I don't necessarily think PP, at this point in his career, is a better facilitator, or that the ball necessarily moves better when he's in. Pritchard's putting up 3.8 assists/36 with a 14.6 Asst% while Kemba has career lows in both at 5.1/36, and 22.2%. Neither is very good, and some of that is due to role, but it's hard to see the eye test "ball moves better" being vindicated by those numbers. Pritchard wasn't really considered a pure point guard in college either, and to date his Asst% is half of what Kemba's in his rookie year. Pritchard might be a better deep threat (debatable), and is likely a better defender (though I think the delta is overstated and the overall impact is marginal), but 85% Kemba is better at everything else and maximizes our championship hopes, which are dependent upon getting Kemba close to 100% and meshing with the first unit for the playoffs.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
Related tangent from watching a lot of the Nets recently: ball-movement in and of itself is much less important than the good looks that result from a lot of the ball-pounding high usage guys. Aesthetically, I used to hate watching Harden, but now its just so obvious how incredible he is at reading defenses and then putting pressure on them to get a shot or an open look. So they have high assist rates even though they're pounding the ball a lot because they are consistently giving teammates wide open looks off of double teams (Joe Harris is loving playing with Harden right now). The guys that can do that at high levels are probably the most valuable pieces on a basketball court outside of great two-way wings. Pritchard can maybe be one some day, which is a great development for this team, but I think it's more likely that Kemba gets back to being one than PP figures it out this year.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
This seams like the disconnect. I don't necessarily think PP, at this point in his career, is a better facilitator, or that the ball necessarily moves better when he's in. Pritchard's putting up 3.8 assists/36 with a 14.6 Asst% while Kemba has career lows in both at 5.1/36, and 22.2%. Neither is very good, and some of that is due to role, but it's hard to see the eye test "ball moves better" being vindicated by those numbers. Pritchard wasn't really considered a pure point guard in college either, and to date his Asst% is half of what Kemba's in his rookie year. Pritchard might be a better deep threat (debatable), and is likely a better defender (though I think the delta is overstated and the overall impact is marginal), but 85% Kemba is better at everything else and maximizes our championship hopes, which are dependent upon getting Kemba close to 100% and meshing with the first unit for the playoffs.
I realize my argument is more eye test based than numbers but I honestly think the ball often moves better when Pritchard is in.

He probes the defense, looks for kick outs, and makes quick passes more than any of the other guards in my view. Not necessarily passes that lead directly to a score but just his overall feel for the game and ability to facilitate ball movement.

He’s not Steve Nash out there but when he is engaged (not all the time... he has some games he wastes minutes and is too passive, hence the stats you posted) I think he can be a positive impact on the Jays ability to score without always going one on one.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Also, my argument for PP getting more time with the starters is primarily related to what a healthy Kemba could do with the bench. He has a skillset PP doesn’t have and could be very helpful propping then up.

The downstream effect of that would be more time for PP with the starters. I actually think as he gets more comfortable he can work well the Jays and help avoid so much of the one on one they have fallen into, even though I agree his assist numbers overall haven’t been very impressive yet.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
I realize my argument is more eye test based than numbers but I honestly think the ball often moves better when Pritchard is in.

He probes the defense, looks for kick outs, and makes quick passes more than any of the other guards in my view.

That’s fair, and not far off what I’m seeing now too. I think it’s a valid option to consider, and I wouldn’t mind seeing the experiment as long as Kemba and the rest of the team is on board, but from what I’ve heard about NBA culture and the clout in starting, I don’t think that’s a given, even for a guy as seemingly easygoing as Kemba.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,159
The Celtics bench is incredibly pathetic when it comes to putting the ball in the basket. Kemba can come off the bench and still play 30 minutes a night. The question is whether it is better to have him out there playing mostly with Jayletum, or to have him out there most of the time with the bench and providing some needed offense when one of the Jays is sitting?
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
That’s fair, and not far off what I’m seeing now too. I think it’s a valid option to consider, and I wouldn’t mind seeing the experiment as long as Kemba and the rest of the team is on board, but from what I’ve heard about NBA culture and the clout in starting, I don’t think that’s a given, even for a guy as seemingly easygoing as Kemba.
This is where team culture and leadership matters and, sadly, we don’t have that. If Manu can come off the bench for basically his entire prime, then a semi-cooked Kemba certainly can. Smart certainly handled it well. At a minimum, I’d like to see PP get some run in the starting lineup when Kemba is out.
 

JakeRae

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
8,125
New York, NY
Honestly thought the days of 30-point games were behind him so that was great to see. It wasn't just about hitting the open shots, he was able to finish at the rim. Hopefully he has literally turned the corner.
He’s been able to finish at the rim all season. So far this year he’s shooting .679 at the rim and has never been above .600 in any season in his career. He’s also now shooting in line with his career averages from 3-10 (a poor .333). The issue this year is much more that he hasn’t been getting to the rim, not performance when he does. He’s also not getting to the line enough. But it’s early for his season and he’s improving, so I think it remains clear that the best approach is patience.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,304
Barring injury there really shouldn't ever be a time when a game isn't in doubt that either Brown or Tatum isn't on the court, so not really sure what moving Kemba to the bench would do because Kemba+4 other bench players isn't really going to be a thing even if he's not the starter.

Plus Tatum+4 bench players worked really well for the last year+ until Tatum got covid.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
This is where team culture and leadership matters and, sadly, we don’t have that. If Manu can come off the bench for basically his entire prime, then a semi-cooked Kemba certainly can. Smart certainly handled it well. At a minimum, I’d like to see PP get some run in the starting lineup when Kemba is out.
Yeah, but Manu really is the exception that proves the rule, and even then, he started out on the bench in part because Pop didn't want to sit the veteran Bruce Bowen for the new guy. And that was for a championship team with David Robinson, a prime Duncan and Gregg Popovich. Raja Bell talked about it recently (and specifically how exceptional Manu was in that regard) and it sounds like starting really is an important thing for guys. You can try to sell it however you want, but telling a 30 year old former All Star that he can be the leader of the bench unit because it'd be a great fit, and still, in the back of his mind, it might sound to that guy a lot like you're benching him for a rookie. I'd want to make sure he's completely bought in to the idea. We literally just lost a very good player because he wasn't happy with his role, despite talking the talk of a good soldier. Kemba's well-liked and respected around the league, it would not be great for the organization to be seen as having alienated him. Kemba very well might be one of those rare guys who can roll with an apparent demotion while he's trying to prove that he still has it , and as I said, it makes enough on-court sense that it's worth considering, but there is more of a potential downside than it seems like people are thinking about in this.
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,296
Kemba can come off the bench and still play 30 minutes a night. The question is whether it is better to have him out there playing mostly with Jayletum, or to have him out there most of the time with the bench and providing some needed offense when one of the Jays is sitting?
This is where team culture and leadership matters and, sadly, we don’t have that. If Manu can come off the bench for basically his entire prime, then a semi-cooked Kemba certainly can. Smart certainly handled it well. At a minimum, I’d like to see PP get some run in the starting lineup when Kemba is out.
Kemba needn’t lose his role as a starter for Brad to organize his rotations such that he’s playing a lot of minutes against the opposing reserves.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,405
around the way
This is where team culture and leadership matters and, sadly, we don’t have that. If Manu can come off the bench for basically his entire prime, then a semi-cooked Kemba certainly can. Smart certainly handled it well. At a minimum, I’d like to see PP get some run in the starting lineup when Kemba is out.
I don't understand why a message like this ("if you guys play 30minutes together, we won't be able to get each of you enough shots") is hard to swallow.

If the starter thing is that import, then Brad needs to quick sub guys at 5min on some kind of rotation.

Edit: Or what pjheff said
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Kemba needn’t lose his role as a starter for Brad to organize his rotations such that he’s playing a lot of minutes against the opposing reserves.
Yeah, this is where I’m at. You can pencil him into the first 5 minutes of each half and the last 5 minutes of the game if you want.

But if his other 15 minutes are used to keep the bench units afloat that would be hugely valuable .
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
I don't understand why a message like this ("if you guys play 30minutes together, we won't be able to get each of you enough shots") is hard to swallow.

If the starter thing is that import, then Brad needs to quick sub guys at 5min on some kind of rotation.

Edit: Or what pjheff said
Agree with this and pjheff. It’s primarily just a minutes management issue. Is Kemba really going to be against an arrangement that gives him more freedom to jack up shots? Doubtful. I have no issue with him start and finishing games. It’s those minutes in the middle where the bench sometimes stalls that is really the issue.
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,296
Yeah, this is where I’m at. You can pencil him into the first 5 minutes of each half and the last 5 minutes of the game if you want.

But if his other 15 minutes are used to keep the bench units afloat that would be hugely valuable .
Medically, is there a value to getting him up and down from the bench less? My perception has been that Brad is using him in fewer stints that are of longer durations.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,426
Who said anything about PP being better than Kemba? All I said was that this team, as constructed, is better with Kemba running the 2nd unit and having 4 guys play off of him.

If that means PP plays on the first line...ok. what would be better would be acquiring a guard that fits the 1st line better than Kemba or PP.
 

Burkharts Uppercut

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 18, 2003
138
Brad started experimenting with this rotation. Look no further than 3 games ago when this happened during the Mavs game. Kemba was subbed at the 6:35 mark for Pritchard and started the 2nd quarter with Kemba, Pritchard, Nesmith, Semi, and TL. That lineup was +1 until Tatum comes in at the 7:25 mark.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Medically, is there a value to getting him up and down from the bench less? My perception has been that Brad is using him in fewer stints that are of longer durations.
I doubt it would make much difference. I think the idea of trying to "stay loose" would make more sense for a muscle injury than arthritis.

My guess is that it's more of a cumulative minutes issue than anything else.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Yup. I would love to see PP and Kemba flip roles but it just won’t happen. You can’t have 3 guys dribbling the ball into the ground like we do when Kemba, Tatum, and Jaylen are all out there. Kemba is most effective when looking for his shot and there are plenty of shots available in 2nd unit.
Brad protects Pritchard against bad matchups as he should even when Kemba is out. He’s fine versus second or in a spot role with the starters but day in and day out he’d get scorched by the size and athleticism of this leagues starting 1’s and those who opponents would be targeting PP in PNR’s.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
Brad protects Pritchard against bad matchups as he should even when Kemba is out. He’s fine versus second or in a spot role with the starters but day in and day out he’d get scorched by the size and athleticism of this leagues starting 1’s and those who opponents would be targeting PP in PNR’s.
Kemba is no different on that front so that part is a wash to me. And if you read the rest of the responses, the comments were primarily focused on lining up Kemba with the 2nd unit more for offensive purposes. I think PP would be fine playing with the Jay’s on offense. I am under no illusion that making a simple swap would fix everything. It’s just something I’d like to see. Any material change starts and ends with the Jay’s.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,159
It's also about leveraging people so that they are used when they are most useful. PP is really very good at outside shooting and do "lan an excellent job at creating space for players to create their own shot. If he's out there playing with Semi and Nesmith that is.....ummmm.....let's just say not as useful :)

Obviously, Kemba is a good outside shooter as well - but I think PP is probably a bit better, and they aren't going to have Kemba running up and down the floor to create space for Tatum.

As others mentioned, it's not about Kemba never playing with Tatum or JB. It's just about a slight shift in focus where Kemba is utilized more to really keep the offense going when we have some of the non-starters on the floor. Obviously I don't know Kemba, but at least his public persona would be that he would happily do anything that Brad wanted him to do if that gave the Celtics the best chance to win. So, I really don't think "losing his starting job" would be an issue for him - especially since I would expect him to be closing out games, which is the most important high leverage spot there is.
 

pjheff

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2003
1,296
It's also about leveraging people so that they are used when they are most useful. PP is really very good at outside shooting and do "lan an excellent job at creating space for players to create their own shot. If he's out there playing with Semi and Nesmith that is.....ummmm.....let's just say not as useful :)
It also seems that with PP there’s a better chance that the unit is going to run an offensive set with a goal of getting a quality scoring opportunity for someone whereas Tatum / Brown bringing the ball up feels like it too often leads to the ballhandler simply looking for a high screen to get himself a quick (but not necessarily good) shot.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,848
NYC
It also seems that with PP there’s a better chance that the unit is going to run an offensive set with a goal of getting a quality scoring opportunity for someone whereas Tatum / Brown bringing the ball up feels like it too often leads to the ballhandler simply looking for a high screen to get himself a quick (but not necessarily good) shot.
Just chiming in to note that I first read the meme in your avatar as "BETTER HITLER THAN DIMAGGIO." (Which didn't really fit the WWII theme, but somehow did not seem out of place with the Munson joke...)
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,671
Over his last ten games, Kemba is averaging 20-3-4 and shooting 40/39/93. His field goal percentage is low, but that is also reflective of half of his shots being three pointers, which he is making at a very good rate. You would like to see him get to the rim a little bit more, but outside of that I think he has been the credible third-scorer/creator that this team needs him to be. The problem has been the other stuff.
 

shoelace

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 24, 2019
268
Over his last ten games, Kemba is averaging 20-3-4 and shooting 40/39/93. His field goal percentage is low, but that is also reflective of half of his shots being three pointers, which he is making at a very good rate. You would like to see him get to the rim a little bit more, but outside of that I think he has been the credible third-scorer/creator that this team needs him to be. The problem has been the other stuff.
Payton Pritchard over his last 10 is averaging 5/2/2 on 35% from the field and 18% from three. Just a point of comparison for the "Pritchard should start" crowd.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,460
Perhaps even more importantly PP is like 7th on the team in assist rate. He's not really a PG
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,159
Payton Pritchard over his last 10 is averaging 5/2/2 on 35% from the field and 18% from three. Just a point of comparison for the "Pritchard should start" crowd.
I don't think there are many people arguing that Pritchard is better than Kemba or that Pritchard should play more minutes than Kemba. The point about starting Pritchard, at least for some, was more around how to best utilize Kemba as well as try and have some semblance of an offense when Tatum or Brown are out of the game.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,460
I don't think there are many people arguing that Pritchard is better than Kemba or that Pritchard should play more minutes than Kemba. The point about starting Pritchard, at least for some, was more around how to best utilize Kemba as well as try and have some semblance of an offense when Tatum or Brown are out of the game.
That's really about staggering though, and honestly... PP just has to play better. The bench is where you want your shoot first PG.

You want your best starting 5, and that should have Kemba in it, in part because Kemba is more likely to get Tatum and Brown easy shots and rhythm.

Part of the bench issue is that they were being careful with Kemba's minutes, and Smart is out, now that he's up to 33-35 MPG, once Brown and Smart are back they can have far fewer minutes without 2 of their 3 scorers on the floor. They'll start together, one will go to the bench for Smart, and then they'll stagger to maximize time with 2 of 3 on the court, and finish with all 3, it's pretty standard for how teams handle their best players.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,671
I don't think there are many people arguing that Pritchard is better than Kemba or that Pritchard should play more minutes than Kemba. The point about starting Pritchard, at least for some, was more around how to best utilize Kemba as well as try and have some semblance of an offense when Tatum or Brown are out of the game.
And it's a stupid idea. In the NBA you really want to maximize the amount of time your best players are sharing the floor together; not drive them apart. Obviously, you want to have at least one creator out there at all times so you are not relying too heavily on Semi Ojeleye creating something, but the goal should be to pretty much maximize the amount of peak offense you can have on the floor at all times. By putting Kemba mostly with the bench units you might see an uptick in productivity from the bench, but you will also see a downtick in the efficiency of Tatum/Brown who will miss the attention Kemba draws on offense.

You do want to find a balance where you can rest guys while also maintaining some offensive firepower, and staggering minutes is a critical aspect of managing the rotation, but putting Kemba on the bench is not going to help this team; especially since Tatum has been a slow starter in games this year. Actually, come to think of it, I feel like Kemba scores a lot of his points in the first quarter, while Tatum is more of a second/third quarter guy. Maybe we should bench Tatum so he can anchor the second unit!

Perhaps even more importantly PP is like 7th on the team in assist rate. He's not really a PG
Seriously, I know some people want to think that he is John Stockton, Steve Nash, Mark Price, TJ McConnell, etc. but he is more like Lou Williams, Jordan Clarkson or IT. Which is fine because that would make him a good player to come off this bench and spark some offense.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,159
PP has definitely been in a bit of a slump for awhile now. Rookie wall - league figuring him out - reverting to the mean - random variance: I don't know. Certainly he hasn't been looking as great as he did a bit earlier in the season.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
PP has definitely been in a bit of a slump for awhile now. Rookie wall - league figuring him out - reverting to the mean - random variance: I don't know. Certainly he hasn't been looking as great as he did a bit earlier in the season.
The knee injury could easily be playing a role here.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,460
The knee injury could easily be playing a role here.
probably part of it, I think the other is teams aren't giving him space. A lot of his success early was taking DEEP 3s with the defender too far off to contest. Now guys are sticking to him further out because they know what he wants, and he's struggling to get off good looks unless it's a wide open catch and shoot.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
probably part of it, I think the other is teams aren't giving him space. A lot of his success early was taking DEEP 3s with the defender too far off to contest. Now guys are sticking to him further out because they know what he wants, and he's struggling to get off good looks unless it's a wide open catch and shoot.
Yeah, I think there's a more robust scouting report out on him now. We'll see how he adjusts. I do think that he doesn't look quite as explosive as he did pre-injury, which I attribute to the knee injury. Hopefully he gets back to December PP soon because an improved Kemba and December PP combo would be quite good for us.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Some of PPs best games were after the injury. He came back much more aggressive. His shots just haven't been falling lately.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,495
probably part of it, I think the other is teams aren't giving him space. A lot of his success early was taking DEEP 3s with the defender too far off to contest. Now guys are sticking to him further out because they know what he wants, and he's struggling to get off good looks unless it's a wide open catch and shoot.
They are also not biting on his upfakes when he gets deep into the paint which leads him to get swallowed up more frequently than before. On the positive note, he's been hitting his pull-ups pretty regularly after being run off the 3P line so that helps.

He really needs a good floater to round out his game. Once he develops that, opponents won't be able to sit back and wait until he gets into the lane, which they are doing now.