Fournier to Celtics (old thread bumped)

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If Fournier is out 14 days, he could miss as many as eight of Boston's remaining 27 regular-season games (30 percent), depending on when the quarantine officially starts for him.

I'm guessing the C's have reason to believe Fournier will re-sign with them, but if he were to walk, this trade would be quite the debacle.
 

HomeRunBaker

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he's more of an established player so probably given more time.
I’m not as familiar with this CBA as the prior but each player has a certain amount of time to report to their new team. I believe it was 72 hours. Naturally for a non-established player they should be on the next flight to make a good impression but every player does have the same window to report.
 

benhogan

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he's more of an established player so probably given more time.
Danny, during his presser, mentioned that Evan had a wife & child in Orlando. EF had to sort out some things and fly to Boston Friday AM. Moe Wagner got to Boston Thursday night and received his physical early Friday morning, then took a flight to Milwaukee. Kornet drove from Chicago to Milwaukee.

Go to the 16:00 minute mark

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hddq94LGR4c
 

Jimbodandy

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I'm guessing the C's have reason to believe Fournier will re-sign with them, but if he were to walk, this trade would be quite the debacle.
Quite the Debacle? They traded 2 second round picks for him. For the opportunity cost of the TPE?

I think that we have different definitions of "quite the debacle".
 

Cesar Crespo

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Quite the Debacle? They traded 2 second round picks for him. For the opportunity cost of the TPE?

I think that we have different definitions of "quite the debacle".
Hey, that TPE costs us 2 2nd round picks too. I don't know why anyone would ever complain about 2nd round picks being traded. If you really like a player in the 2nd round, acquiring a 2nd round pick is pretty easy.

2nd round picks are the definition of a throw in. On top of that, Ainge has had to waste 1st round picks in the last few years because he didn't have roster spots. See Yabu, Zizic, Kanter trade.

I think the worst case scenario is him walking in a S&T anyway, thus creating another TPE.
 

128

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Quite the Debacle? They traded 2 second round picks for him. For the opportunity cost of the TPE?

I think that we have different definitions of "quite the debacle".
The idea, I always thought, was to turn the huge TPE into a quality player (or players) who would strengthen the team long-term. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I'm guessing the C's have reason to believe Fournier will re-sign, in which case this would be a moot point.

In retrospect, "unfortunate" would have been more accurate than "debacle."
 

slamminsammya

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The idea, I always thought, was to turn the huge TPE into a quality player (or players) who would strengthen the team long-term. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I'm guessing the C's have reason to believe Fournier will re-sign, in which case this would be a moot point.

In retrospect, "unfortunate" would have been more accurate than "debacle."
I don't even think its an unfortunate outcome? Fournier is a good player, I am not sure what is unfortunate about the situation.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don't even think its an unfortunate outcome? Fournier is a good player, I am not sure what is unfortunate about the situation.
Fournier leaving would be unfortunate precisely because he is a good player and we'd have wasted the TPE and 2 2nd rounders for nothing.

It's based on the scenario he misses a bunch of games because of Covid and then walks at season's end.
 

128

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Fournier leaving would be unfortunate precisely because he is a good player and we'd have wasted the TPE and 2 2nd rounders for nothing.

It's based on the scenario he misses a bunch of games because of Covid and then walks at season's end.
Thanks. The C's would have significant roster-building to do in the offseason. That might turn out to be the case anyway, but having Fournier in the fold would put them in a solid starting place as they assemble their 2021-22 team, especially if Time Lord continues to emerge.
 

NomarsFool

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Any new news on Fournier? I'm really eager to see him play and was quite disappointed he was out for H&S against OKC.

Hopefully this is just a "needs a test" sort of thing.
 

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The idea, I always thought, was to turn the huge TPE into a quality player (or players) who would strengthen the team long-term. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I'm guessing the C's have reason to believe Fournier will re-sign, in which case this would be a moot point.

In retrospect, "unfortunate" would have been more accurate than "debacle."
It would be unfortunate if he walks at year end, if we like the player (I do). But I save the hyperbole words for stuff like Houston has been doing or scenarios like trading a bucket of firsts for a guy who leaves.

The goal is always to improve the club, and Fournier walking doesn't do that. But the cost to get him was trivial. Even the TPE is just a consolation prize for...second round picks.
 

lovegtm

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The idea, I always thought, was to turn the huge TPE into a quality player (or players) who would strengthen the team long-term. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I'm guessing the C's have reason to believe Fournier will re-sign, in which case this would be a moot point.

In retrospect, "unfortunate" would have been more accurate than "debacle."
Once Fournier was acquired, other guys can become available as salary matches without gutting depth. That in turn makes the TPE more expendable, since you were never going to pay that many guys anyway.

If Fournier re-signs, the trade is a pretty big win, because the Celtics can put together a massive, pick-heavy package for any top-25 guy who comes available, while still having a strong core to add that guy too. In that sense, they would have sort of rolled the TPE over.

If the front office had good reason to think EF will re-sign, it’s a clever bit of maneuvering by Ainge/Zarren. (not to mention the fact that EF himself is a solid NBA starter)
 

HomeRunBaker

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Once Fournier was acquired, other guys can become available as salary matches without gutting depth. That in turn makes the TPE more expendable, since you were never going to pay that many guys anyway.

If Fournier re-signs, the trade is a pretty big win, because the Celtics can put together a massive, pick-heavy package for any top-25 guy who comes available, while still having a strong core to add that guy too. In that sense, they would have sort of rolled the TPE over.

If the front office had good reason to think EF will re-sign, it’s a clever bit of maneuvering by Ainge/Zarren. (not to mention the fact that EF himself is a solid NBA starter)
Having the ability to sign Fournier by making him the best FA offer isn’t any added value to the trade as we’d still have had the ability to sign Fournier this summer by making him the best offer without trading for him.
 

jezza1918

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Having the ability to sign Fournier by making him the best FA offer isn’t any added value to the trade as we’d still have had the ability to sign Fournier this summer by making him the best offer without trading for him.
I am not a salary cap expert by any stretch of the imagination, but didn’t they retain his bird rights in the trade? Making it easier for them so resign him this summer?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I am not a salary cap expert by any stretch of the imagination, but didn’t they retain his bird rights in the trade? Making it easier for them so resign him this summer?
Yes, I stand corrected. If that’s the case I’d guess for it to happen a large move would occur probably involving Smart.
 

lovegtm

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Yes, I stand corrected. If that’s the case I’d guess for it to happen a large move would occur probably involving Smart.
That’s correct. You also could have used the TPE in the offseason to S&T for him, but obviously there are some advantages to getting him while the price is cheap to reduce moving parts.

I do think that if the right guy comes available this summer, Smart will be the key part of the salary match.
 

benhogan

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Having the ability to sign Fournier by making him the best FA offer isn’t any added value to the trade as we’d still have had the ability to sign Fournier this summer by making him the best offer without trading for him.
I doubt teams with cap space will be chasing Fournier at $50MM for 3yrs. Rebuilders with space will be chasing the younger RFAs at that price. I expect he'll be a nice complementary piece for the Celtics, not someone you build around.

Worse comes to worst they turn it into another S&T, rolling a large TPE out another year. Really not concerned with 2nd round pick stock
 

lovegtm

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I severely doubt a team with cap space will be chasing Fournier at $50MM for 3yrs. Rebuilders with space will be chasing the younger RFAs at that price.

Worse comes to worst they turn it into another S&T, rolling a large TPE out another year. Really not concerned with 2nd round pick stock
It’s also nice to actually acquire decent NBA players rather than perpetually waiting for the offseason. If Fournier fits in well, you feel good about paying him and have a clearer idea for what the team does need in addition.
 

NomarsFool

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Once Fournier was acquired, other guys can become available as salary matches without gutting depth. That in turn makes the TPE more expendable, since you were never going to pay that many guys anyway.

If Fournier re-signs, the trade is a pretty big win, because the Celtics can put together a massive, pick-heavy package for any top-25 guy who comes available, while still having a strong core to add that guy too. In that sense, they would have sort of rolled the TPE over.
Do you mean including Fournier as salary ballast? Not impossible, but a little bit of a bad look to ship out someone so quickly.

I like Fournier, but my only real gripe is using the TPE to get him. I don’t see how we get another impact player here without sending out Smart as I don’t think TT is enough salary ballast. I would have liked to send a boatload of picks for anyone who would fit in the TPE. It’s too bad we couldn’t have shipped out TT and salary filler for Fournier to keep the TPE intact.
 

lexrageorge

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TPE was always going to be a bit tricky to use in the offseason, as the Celtics would not have enough room under the apron to do a sign-and-trade, unless they can send out a lot of salary. Had the Celtics been going well, they probably would have waited to use the TPE. But neither Brad nor Danny nor Wyc wanted to miss the playoffs or lose the play-in game, and that was a distinct possibility.
 

benhogan

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Do you mean including Fournier as salary ballast? Not impossible, but a little bit of a bad look to ship out someone so quickly.

I like Fournier, but my only real gripe is using the TPE to get him. I don’t see how we get another impact player here without sending out Smart as I don’t think TT is enough salary ballast. I would have liked to send a boatload of picks for anyone who would fit in the TPE. It’s too bad we couldn’t have shipped out TT and salary filler for Fournier to keep the TPE intact.
TT + MS + Romeo + Nesmith + draft picks galore gets them their WWW (Wizard White Whale) cap-wise, unfortunately not talent-wise.
 

lovegtm

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Do you mean including Fournier as salary ballast? Not impossible, but a little bit of a bad look to ship out someone so quickly.

I like Fournier, but my only real gripe is using the TPE to get him. I don’t see how we get another impact player here without sending out Smart as I don’t think TT is enough salary ballast. I would have liked to send a boatload of picks for anyone who would fit in the TPE. It’s too bad we couldn’t have shipped out TT and salary filler for Fournier to keep the TPE intact.
The idea would be to ship out Smart+TT. There are only so many guys you can pay, and having Fournier + hypothetical additional guy makes losing Smart not as big a deal.

To be clear, I like Marcus Smart as a player, and the Celtics will be fine to roll with him if no one comes available. But if someone does, Smart+TT is far superior to the TPE, since it doesn't expire after the offseason. If you have another situation like this year where Harden comes available after the season starts, you wouldn't be able to execute that deal with the TPE. Smart+TT gives them optionality all the way up to next year's deadline, while keeping good performance in the meantime, because Marcus Smart is good at basketball.

(Bolded repeated multiple times to ward off the pedants who attack any Smart trade idea by assuming that I don't think Marcus Smart is good.)
 

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I don’t know what the hard cap and luxury tax situation will be, but if they can grab another $11 million player in the summer to put in the TPE, that’d be good for a future trade.
 

lovegtm

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I don’t know what the hard cap and luxury tax situation will be, but if they can grab another $11 million player in the summer to put in the TPE, that’d be good for a future trade.
Doable if they unload Kemba, really pricey otherwise. Tatum not making All-NBA will help the cap situation a decent bit.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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All-NBA Tatum $33.7MM (30% X 112.4) vs $28.1MM (25% X 112.4)

Is that # set for the entirety of Tatum's 4yr contract?
I believe the percentage of the salary cap is only involved for determining the first year salary, after that it goes up 8% per year, the most allowed for a Bird rights contract (its only 5% annual increases for non-Bird rights contacts). So not making All-NBA would still affect those later years since it sets the first year lower and the increases would be based on that lower base.
 

benhogan

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I believe the percentage of the salary cap is only involved for determining the first year salary, after that it goes up 8% per year, the most allowed for a Bird rights contract (its only 5% annual increases for non-Bird rights contacts). So not making All-NBA would still affect those later years since it sets the first year lower and the increases would be based on that lower base.
so the rough difference for Tatum making All-NBA is ~$5.5-6.5MM/yr.

So it's a decent amount in regards to the Celtic cap situation.


disclaimer: I'd rather have Tatum play well and earn All-NBA. I really could care less about Wyc's P/L next year, but also realize these guys work with budgets (unlike the Warriors)
 
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Cesar Crespo

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When will we know about Fournier and his questionable status? Hopefully he can play tonight with Jaylen out.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That makes me happy. It would have been so deflating for him to be out 14+ days like TT and RL are going on.
 

reggiecleveland

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On top of that, Ainge has had to waste 1st round picks in the last few years because he didn't have roster spots. See Yabu, Zizic, Kanter trade.

I think the worst case scenario is him walking in a S&T anyway, thus creating another TPE.
I forgot about those guys. Good point, ie picks, especially with this young roster
 

HomeRunBaker

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Saw one possession when clicking through. He coasted into a passing lane for a steal got beat then jogged behind his man as the guy went in for 2. Didn’t realize he put up a goose egg on 0-10 shooting in 33 minutes. Whoa!
 
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