Is it time to talk about Coach Brad?

Deathofthebambino

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In the interest of completeness, I'd also do it if they made the playoffs and the season ended like it did for last year's Sixers.
I'm not sure how anyone thinks this team is making it out of the first round this year, given where they'll most likely be seeded. If they even get in.

Maybe they don't get swept, but damn....

TT is coming back, and I suppose Fournier will too, so there is some reason for optimism. But, Jayson Tatum missed 6 games due to COVID in January, and we're still excusing his play almost 3 months later. TT just missed 13 games, and I think we can all agree he's not as young and not in as good a shape as Tatum is...I think any optimism about this team this year is really just that, optimistic.
 

Cellar-Door

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What would have to happen for you to want to move on from Brad? The team misses the playoffs this year? Is a .500 team next year?

I'm not being rhetorical, and I'm not ready to pull the trigger yet, genuinely curious.

For me, I'd say missing the playoffs or being below .500 this year would probably have me doing it.
This year..... Tatum makes known he wants Brad out.
Next year... below .540 at the break (barring losing Tatum or Brown for most of those games to injury).

I think making decisions based on such a bizarre set of circumstances as this season isn't a good idea unless there is something (like your star wanting a change) that makes you think it will definitely be an issue moving forward.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If your expectation for a team with 0 top 10 players in the league was more than making the ECF then you weren't being rational about how the NBA works.
A bunch of you were telling me early this year how Jayson was a top 10 player and I was crazy for thinking otherwise.

What a difference a few months makes.

So you think Brad Stevens is the only coach who can bring a roster build around Tatum and Brown to the ECF to lose every year?

He didn't overachieve and losing in the ECF isn't an accomplishment.
 

lovegtm

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This year..... Tatum makes known he wants Brad out.
Next year... below .540 at the break (barring losing Tatum or Brown for most of those games to injury).

I think making decisions based on such a bizarre set of circumstances as this season isn't a good idea unless there is something (like your star wanting a change) that makes you think it will definitely be an issue moving forward.
That's fair. I have a shorter leash because I see the guys who have been healthy for months being completely disconnected on defense and clearly not engaged mentally.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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People forget how far Simmons (and to some degree Embiid) had slipped in people's minds before the Sixers shook up the staff and role players. Now they look like title contenders.
IMO Sixers look like title contenders not because they replaced Trey Burke and Alec Burke and Josh Richardson and Al Horford for Danny Green and Seth Curry and Dwight Howard but because Embiid has turned himself into a MVP candidate and Simmons is playing at a defensive MVP level.

That's why PHI is 11-9 without Embiid.

Not saying roster changes and unlocking Harris (though Harris didn't look great last night) doesn't help, but Embiid has taken the leap that we hoped Tatum and/or wished Brown might take.
 

ugmo33

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In the interest of completeness, I'd also do it if they made the playoffs and the season ended like it did for last year's Sixers.
People have been bringing up the Sixers and Raptors as other teams with significantly different 2021 vs 2020, with the Raptors major change being losing their starting bigs and the Sixers changing front office/coaching staff and swapping out their SG. The Cs have changed almost nothing and they look like sh** compared to 2020. They called it out on the broadcast last night that the Cs owned the sixers last year and they are both essentially the same teams this year. I guess my question is, what changed and is it something a new coach could fix?
 

Deathofthebambino

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IMO Sixers look like title contenders not because they replaced Trey Burke and Alec Burke and Josh Richardson and Al Horford for Danny Green and Seth Curry and Dwight Howard but because Embiid has turned himself into a MVP candidate and Simmons is playing at a defensive MVP level.

That's why PHI is 11-9 without Embiid.

Not saying roster changes and unlocking Harris (though Harris didn't look great last night) doesn't help, but Embiid has taken the leap that we hoped Tatum and/or wished Brown might take.
Just to be clear, what percentage of the Sixers turnaround would you attribute to Doc Rivers?

For me, it's a pretty substantial amount.
 

Jimbodandy

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Keep a coach that a team has written off around too long and you also get a toxic locker room with chronic underperformers. This team sort of has a the feel of a team with a toxic locker room and it definitely has chronic underperformance.
How long has this chronic underperformance been going on? They went to 3 of the last 4 conference finals with no top 10 players. If they underperformed in those years, what were the correct expected performances there?
 

lovegtm

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IMO Sixers look like title contenders not because they replaced Trey Burke and Alec Burke and Josh Richardson and Al Horford for Danny Green and Seth Curry and Dwight Howard but because Embiid has turned himself into a MVP candidate and Simmons is playing at a defensive MVP level.

That's why PHI is 11-9 without Embiid.

Not saying roster changes and unlocking Harris (though Harris didn't look great last night) doesn't help, but Embiid has taken the leap that we hoped Tatum and/or wished Brown might take.
This is my point actually: Embiid took a leap, and Simmons is playing way better. Meanwhile Tatum and Brown can't even be bothered to play defense anymore (which is a huge part of their value).
 

Cesar Crespo

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People have been bringing up the Sixers and Raptors as other teams with significantly different 2021 vs 2020, with the Raptors major change being losing their starting bigs and the Sixers changing front office/coaching staff and swapping out their SG. The Cs have changed almost nothing and they look like sh** compared to 2020. They called it out on the broadcast last night that the Cs owned the sixers last year and they are both essentially the same teams this year. I guess my question is, what changed and is it something a new coach could fix?
Almost nothing... they lost Gordon Hayward. People really understate just how huge that is, especially when they didn't bother to replace him until they traded for Evan Fournier. Kemba is also a shell of his former self.

So they basically lost two top 40 players, even though one is still on the roster.
 

lovegtm

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Just to be clear, what percentage of the Sixers turnaround would you attribute to Doc Rivers?

For me, it's a pretty substantial amount.
A lot, just from getting them to play with energy and be disciplined if nothing else.

Also, Doc lost the Clippers last year. Coaching ability matters less than specific circumstances.
 

128

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People have been bringing up the Sixers and Raptors as other teams with significantly different 2021 vs 2020, with the Raptors major change being losing their starting bigs and the Sixers changing front office/coaching staff and swapping out their SG. The Cs have changed almost nothing and they look like sh** compared to 2020. They called it out on the broadcast last night that the Cs owned the sixers last year and they are both essentially the same teams this year. I guess my question is, what changed and is it something a new coach could fix?
The Sixers are much different team than they were a season ago. For starters, Ben Simmons missed the playoff series with Boston, though I doubt the ultimate result would have changed if he'd played. But they've added two elite shooters in Curry and Green, an elite backup center in Howard, and upgraded from Brett Brown to Doc Rivers as head coach.

Also, didn't Philly win the regular-season series with Boston in 2019-20?

That's not excusing the play of the Celtics, who are a mess. But much has changed with these teams since last season.
 

lovegtm

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Almost nothing... they lost Gordon Hayward. People really understate just how huge that is, especially when they didn't bother to replace him until they traded for Evan Fournier. Kemba is also a shell of his former self.

So they basically lost two top 40 players, even though one is still on the roster.
Brad should take some blame for losing Hayward imo.
 

Cesar Crespo

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How long has this chronic underperformance been going on? They went to 3 of the last 4 conference finals with no top 10 players. If they underperformed in those years, what were the correct expected performances there?
The didn't underperform either. If they were fully healthy, they should have made a Finals or two. The chronic underperformance I'm talking about is this year. The body language on the court is also pretty toxic.

Thing is, it doesn't have to go on long. When a coach loses a team, you have to make a move pretty quickly. It's not something you let go on for years.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I think making decisions based on such a bizarre set of circumstances as this season isn't a good idea unless there is something (like your star wanting a change) that makes you think it will definitely be an issue moving forward.
Getting embarrassed by Milwaukee in 2019 is part of the conversation here.
 

Cellar-Door

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A bunch of you were telling me early this year how Jayson was a top 10 player and I was crazy for thinking otherwise.

What a difference a few months makes.

So you think Brad Stevens is the only coach who can bring a roster build around Tatum and Brown to the ECF to lose every year?

He didn't overachieve and losing in the ECF isn't an accomplishment.
I was not one of them.

I don't think he is the only one, but I don't think just any coach could have taken any of those teams, nevermind 3 of the last 4 to the ECF.
I think some of those years are clear over-achievement, others are at least a meets expectations, and that's a rare thing in a coach to consistently delver that.

and making the ECF is an accomplishment, it means you are a good team that didn't choke in the playoffs, and for all but 2 teams it's the best you can achieve in a season.

I mean, I look at last year... MIL had the MVP and DPOY, they won 56 games... they didn't make the ECF, TOR was the #2 seed, they missed the ECF because they lost to the Celtics.

I look at the last 4 years in the Eastern Conference and I see the Celtics having remarkably consistent success despite not having a truly elite player, and pretty high levels of player turnover, and I see a lot of ups and downs around them. Jumping ship on the coach and GM who built that sustained success because of a single year is probably bad process. Doing it when that 1 year includes not being able to practice, a ton of injuries and illnesses, and it become even more of an obvious case of hot take sports radio hyper-reactionism.
 

Jimbodandy

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The didn't underperform either. If they were fully healthy, they should have made a Finals or two. The chronic underperformance I'm talking about is this year. The body language on the court is also pretty toxic.

Thing is, it doesn't have to go on long. When a coach loses a team, you have to make a move pretty quickly. It's not something you let go on for years.
This year, I agree.

Frankly I think that it's fatigue (covid plus long playoff runs with no offseasons), and that swapping out Brad likely doesn't help. But if the grapevine is telling Danny that Brad's voice has been tuned out for good, then it won't hurt either.
 

amarshal2

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IMO Sixers look like title contenders not because they replaced Trey Burke and Alec Burke and Josh Richardson and Al Horford for Danny Green and Seth Curry and Dwight Howard but because Embiid has turned himself into a MVP candidate and Simmons is playing at a defensive MVP level.

That's why PHI is 11-9 without Embiid.

Not saying roster changes and unlocking Harris (though Harris didn't look great last night) doesn't help, but Embiid has taken the leap that we hoped Tatum and/or wished Brown might take.
Certainly nobody is raving about the Bucks' "shakeup" as a franchise changing moment.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Certainly nobody is raving about the Bucks' "shakeup" as a franchise changing moment.
They made a panic move because they got their hands caught in the cookie jar.

Some might say firing Stevens would be a panic move but I think it's completely different than the Bucks situation.
 

bakahump

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Whats the evidence that Brad has lost the team?

He says "we need to do xyz", and the team isnt doing XYZ?
Do we have any kind of qoute or insider opinion saying he has lost the team?
 

lovegtm

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The didn't underperform either. If they were fully healthy, they should have made a Finals or two. The chronic underperformance I'm talking about is this year. The body language on the court is also pretty toxic.

Thing is, it doesn't have to go on long. When a coach loses a team, you have to make a move pretty quickly. It's not something you let go on for years.
Exactly--this isn't football, or college basketball. If you have talent and the coach is losing it, you have to move very quickly.

I personally think the signs are there that he's lost the team, but obviously I'm not in the locker room. Regardless, that's the only thing to really evaluate at this point imo.
 

lovegtm

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Whats the evidence that Brad has lost the team?

He says "we need to do xyz", and the team isnt doing XYZ?
Do we have any kind of qoute or insider opinion saying he has lost the team?
That Sixers game was a team that was completely going through the motions. Particularly on defense, but also on the offensive end.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Just to be clear, what percentage of the Sixers turnaround would you attribute to Doc Rivers?

For me, it's a pretty substantial amount.
It's hard to have this discussion because PHI is playing better and obviously one big change is the coach so it's easy to focus on Doc. Which I find funny since not six months ago, people were making fun of the same coach for losing 3-1 series leads with not 1 not 2 but 3 different teams.

The three guys who played last night who weren't on the team last year were Howard, Green, and Curry. (The rest of the guys - Embiid, Simmons, Harris, Korkmaz, Milton, Mike Scott, and Thybulle haven't changed.) I personally wouldn't say that Howard is a better back-up center than Horford - though I would say that playing 14 minutes of Howard is better for Embiid and Simmons than playing 25 minutes of Horford. So that's probably addition by subtraction.

Green and Curry are certainly shooting upgrades over Josh Richardson and whoever Brett Brown was trying out at the other guard spot, though I note that just for shooting, the 2019-20 PHI team had Alec Burke who shot .416 from 3P and .TreyBurke, who shot .421 from 3P, last year.

I don't watch PHI enough to know but it seems to me that the majority of the upgrade is that Embiid and Simmons are playing both as individuals as well as teammates. It's hard to parse out how much of that is getting rid of Horford, how much of that is the two just getting better, and how much is due to Doc running different stuff on offense or defense.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Whats the evidence that Brad has lost the team?

He says "we need to do xyz", and the team isnt doing XYZ?
Do we have any kind of qoute or insider opinion saying he has lost the team?
Everything is with the IF caveat. It's a discussion board.
 

Cellar-Door

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So going beyond my feeling that a single down year under awful circumstances, and a desire to "Shake it up" are bad reasons to fire the coach... I think there are a lot of reasons Brad has shown (even this year) that he's a coach you want going forward:
1. Young player development... Tatum and Brown have excelled, they are already both likely successes beyond what most projected them to be when they were drafted. Brad has done a really good job helping them develop on both ends, showing confidence, letting them get experience. Timelord, a lot of people were frustrated by Brad's approach, but it seems to have worked very well... TL is not just playing the best he ever has, he's been managed well and avoided the types of injuries that have hurt his ability to get on the court in past years. He built him up slowly over the year, showed confidence in him publicly as a guy they wanted to have ready for crunch time come late year, and now with the move from Theis his time has come.
2. Willingness to adapt... this team has been an inconsistent mess, but I like that Brad has tried some things... he's moved to more zone despite it not being his preferred system, simply because guys are struggling whether mentally (the new guys have no idea where to be) or physically (Smart looks like he's wearing cement boots).
3. Consistency of personality... now, maybe eventually we'll see this as a negative, but I like that Brad has been even keeled, he's not going to blame others, he isn't going to complain about the difficulties of the season. He's going to stay even keeled, and protect his guys, players usually appreciate that.

Honestly, I look at this team and as much of a mess as it is... most of the issues come from 2 things to me:
1. Roster/lineup issues early season caused by COVID and injuries.
2. Defensive consistency... this is a concern, and there are a lot of reasons for it, but I'm willing to see how it shakes out. Brad has in the past had a lot of success, but he runs a system that takes a lot of communication, and both high effort and execution levels. This year has been bad because... 1, we can't build consistency due to constant shuffling of available players, and lack of practice time, 2, execution has been poor, particularly from the 3 guys who the system relies heavily on in Tatum, Brown and Smart, and all have physical issues this year.

I think we need to see how this team runs if it can ever get a string of consistent health. I generally think the Celtics have looked pretty good since the deadline, even if it only resulted in a 4-3 record. The only game I thought was awful was PHI, and a lot of that is a product of being horribly overmatched at C, and not having Fournier. Tatum in particular has looked as if he is rounding back to himself.
 

Deathofthebambino

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That Sixers game was a team that was completely going through the motions. Particularly on defense, but also on the offensive end.
And the Cavaliers game, and the 30 point loss to the Knicks, and the Pelicans games, and the Pistons games and on and on and on....

We can talk about whether or not Brad has lost the locker room, or if guys are no longer listening, and what have you, but I really don't think we need to look even that deep.

This team's defense is an abomination, given the players they have who have all shown in the past the ability to defend. Marcus Smart, Tatum, Brown and even TL are plus defenders. Tristan is good defensively in the right matchups, Semi was a good defender, Grant was certainly better last year, etc. But it's the team defense that has fallen off a cliff. It's not all on Kemba. They are completely lost out there and yet, Brad just keeps switching everything, rarely switches to zone to shake things up, runs his same rotations that he came up with the night before and nothing changes.

I can't even get started again on the offense. If anyone stayed up late last night and watched the Golden State/Milwaukee game last night, watching those offenses is like watching a different sport compared to the C's (everyone run to their corners, let's run a PnR with our big at the top of the key, offense that the C's run on 85% of their possessions). Steph Curry is constantly seeing double and sometimes triple teams, he is their offense, and yet, somehow, someway, through ball movement, off ball movement, off ball screens, they get him open looks constantly (granted he doesn't need to be open very long). Watching Utah, who also doesn't have a top 10 player (like the C's) is a breath of fresh air every night.

In his last 10 games, Jaylen Brown is shooting 45% from deep, on 8.9 attempts per game. Yesterday, he starts the game 4/5 from the field and 2/3 from deep. He finishes the game 6/10 from the field and 3/7 from deep with 4 of his shots coming after the game was out of reach. Meanwhile, Tatum and Kemba combined to go 4/15 and 1/7 from deep in the 1st half, while Jaylen spent most of his time twiddling his thumbs in the corner waiting for Marcus or Tatum or Kemba to get him the ball, because that's their offense. Stand around and wait. Maybe it'll be your turn this possession, but maybe it won't be your turn for the next 10 minutes either. It's no wonder why at times, these guys feel the need to do something when they touch the ball, or why we see a "your turn, my turn" offense.

That's all on Brad too, IMO. As we've said countless times around here when it comes to Bill Belichick (and yes, I know football is different than basketball), a great coach puts his guys in positions to succeed. I need someone to show me what positions Brad is putting his guys in to succeed this season? I need to know why Kemba Walker played 36 minutes last night, while Payton Pritchard, who buried 2 3's early to keep the team in it, played 9 minutes, and only 1:31 in the 2nd half (none in the 4th quarter). Is Brad worried about upsetting Kemba because he's getting a day off today?

There are plenty of things Brad could be doing to change things up on the court, and he's not. I'm not even going to get into the "working the refs" discussion too much except to post this:

In the last 15 games, the Boston Celtics have attempted 208 free throws. Their opponents have attempted 363. That's an average of 10.33 FTA's per game advantage for our opponents. But there's Brad, doing, well...nothing.
 

lovegtm

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And the Cavaliers game, and the 30 point loss to the Knicks, and the Pelicans games, and the Pistons games and on and on and on....

We can talk about whether or not Brad has lost the locker room, or if guys are no longer listening, and what have you, but I really don't think we need to look even that deep.

This team's defense is an abomination, given the players they have who have all shown in the past the ability to defend. Marcus Smart, Tatum, Brown and even TL are plus defenders. Tristan is good defensively in the right matchups, Semi was a good defender, Grant was certainly better last year, etc. But it's the team defense that has fallen off a cliff. It's not all on Kemba. They are completely lost out there and yet, Brad just keeps switching everything, rarely switches to zone to shake things up, runs his same rotations that he came up with the night before and nothing changes.

I can't even get started again on the offense. If anyone stayed up late last night and watched the Golden State/Milwaukee game last night, watching those offenses is like watching a different sport compared to the C's (everyone run to their corners, let's run a PnR with our big at the top of the key, offense that the C's run on 85% of their possessions). Steph Curry is constantly seeing double and sometimes triple teams, he is their offense, and yet, somehow, someway, through ball movement, off ball movement, off ball screens, they get him open looks constantly (granted he doesn't need to be open very long). Watching Utah, who also doesn't have a top 10 player (like the C's) is a breath of fresh air every night.

In his last 10 games, Jaylen Brown is shooting 45% from deep, on 8.9 attempts per game. Yesterday, he starts the game 4/5 from the field and 2/3 from deep. He finishes the game 6/10 from the field and 3/7 from deep with 4 of his shots coming after the game was out of reach. Meanwhile, Tatum and Kemba combined to go 4/15 and 1/7 from deep in the 1st half, while Jaylen spent most of his time twiddling his thumbs in the corner waiting for Marcus or Tatum or Kemba to get him the ball, because that's their offense. Stand around and wait. Maybe it'll be your turn this possession, but maybe it won't be your turn for the next 10 minutes either. It's no wonder why at times, these guys feel the need to do something when they touch the ball, or why we see a "your turn, my turn" offense.

That's all on Brad too, IMO. As we've said countless times around here when it comes to Bill Belichick (and yes, I know football is different than basketball), a great coach puts his guys in positions to succeed. I need someone to show me what positions Brad is putting his guys in to succeed this season? I need to know why Kemba Walker played 36 minutes last night, while Payton Pritchard, who buried 2 3's early to keep the team in it, played 9 minutes, and only 1:31 in the 2nd half (none in the 4th quarter). Is Brad worried about upsetting Kemba because he's getting a day off today?

There are plenty of things Brad could be doing to change things up on the court, and he's not. I'm not even going to get into the "working the refs" discussion too much except to post this:

In the last 15 games, the Boston Celtics have attempted 208 free throws. Their opponents have attempted 363. That's an average of 10.33 FTA's per game advantage for our opponents. But there's Brad, doing, well...nothing.
I agree with this, but I think the defensive and offensive effort/cohesion is the most damning thing, not the Xs and Os. That's when you move out of "could the coach scheme better" territory to "is the team even listening to him" territory.
 

RetractableRoof

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-- snip --

That's all on Brad too, IMO. As we've said countless times around here when it comes to Bill Belichick (and yes, I know football is different than basketball), a great coach puts his guys in positions to succeed. I need someone to show me what positions Brad is putting his guys in to succeed this season? I need to know why Kemba Walker played 36 minutes last night, while Payton Pritchard, who buried 2 3's early to keep the team in it, played 9 minutes, and only 1:31 in the 2nd half (none in the 4th quarter). Is Brad worried about upsetting Kemba because he's getting a day off today?

-- snip --
I was thinking about this. There have been a couple of references from Brad that PP needed to be more aggressive. Do we think there's a chance PP has been sat because he wasn't aggressive enough to justify his time on the floor? Coaches sit players for blown assignments on D, not hustling, free lancing, etc. Is not being aggressive enough something you'd sit him for - or was it just trying to squeeze every ounce out of Kemba knowing he'd be out against the Knicks? Or some other theory?
 

HomeRunBaker

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What does a new GM or Coach bring outside being new?
The downside of missing on a GM in particular is massive.


All of this is just bad process. THe idea that new means better is usually wrong. This is the first year in a long while that the Celtics haven't met or exceeded what their talent suggests they should be. Jumping off that and assuming new GM and Coach will meet/exceed is a wild supposition, especially given how many bad GMs and coaches the league has seen.
Assuming that this team, one loaded with young guys, would see perfectly linear growth, especially under abnormally high adversity is dumb, and jumping to change things immediately just for the sake of making a change is exceptionally dumb.
Rather than multi-quote......

1. A new GM/coach brings a new voice, a fresh perspective, and rejuvenation of the players out of the same routine of the past several years.

2. The idea of new meaning better is actually usually right when the old is stale. It is commonplace in business and in coaching to make changes to generate results when results are not occurring under the old regime.

3. It is not the first year that the Celtics have underperformed and I’ll argue that they haven’t been underperforming their talent as I posted earlier (GM-fail). If you want to say they are then I’ll say ok, then it isn’t the first year in a long time it is 2 of the last 3 seasons.

4. We have a long history in this league, in other leagues and in (other) business worlds where new leaders lead to success. It wasn’t but three weeks ago when so many (not necessarily here) were bashing the Atlanta Hawks for making a coaching change after beginning the year 14-20 because “Lloyd Pierce is a good coach” or “it’s not his fault” and they may not be wrong.......yet miraculously they are 13-4 since and sitting in 1st place in their division.

5. Nobody is saying to make a change for the sake of making a change. You make a change for to the purpose finding the right leader so they can reach their potential. Every NBA coach, with few exceptions, goes through this where a new lesder is in the best interest of the organization......not bc you’re making a change just to make a change.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Does that plan ever backfire?
For it to backfire you’d need to have success under the old regime and/or experience an uptick in performance. So what would “backfiring” result in when we are stuck in the NBA’s version of no-mans land while not progressing?

Edit: I’m referring to both Ainge and Brad. We played Semi, Grant and Kornet a combine 43 minutes last night. Yeah injuries, Covid I know.
 

dhellers

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Brad should take some blame for losing Hayward imo.

Celtics post season success has had almost nothing to do with GH, since due to injury he was never a serious factor in any of the post season runs.

Hence a simple projection would be, the guy isn't dependable when you really need him. So why should it matter if GH is gone.

BTW: Perhaps you have noticed that GH is hurt, for a month. Is ANYONE surprised by this.
 

bakahump

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OK Example......We play .400-500 ball the rest of this season. (under an Interim)
We bring in SOMEBODY for next year. He also goes .500
We all say well he needs a year for his system to take hold.
He comes back the following season and we go @.500.
Tatum is pissed. Jalen is pissed. They demand a trade. We change the coach to try to appease. But one of them stays pissed.
We trade them for Quarters on the Dollar because we have to and now the new coach is stuck with a less talented roster.
Somewhere in here Ainge is fired. (which may be part of your hope) and replaced by SOMEONE.
So 5 years, 3 coaches and 2 GMs from now Tatum is a FA and says screw this, too much change and chaos. I am going go play with my friend in ______.


SO yeah I think it could get alot worse and Backfire quite badly.

Question 1:Do you think Stevens is a Bad Coach? Where does he rank in the league?
Question 2: Do you think Ainge is a good exec? Where does he rank in the league?
Question 3: How does Tatum (and Brown) actually feel. (we dont and probably cant KNOW this. Until its clear that he cant exist with CBS and or DA then its silly to make a change because "Often the Grass is greener". Often it isnt.)

Look at 2019-2020 We were coming off a miserable season of Kyrie trying to wreck it all. CBS coaches them to the ECF.

I am not saying that CBS or DA is untouchable. But this year is not the year to decide that. See how a fresh year shakes out next year. if its bad then Wyc has a heart to heart with Tatum (maybe with DA, maybe without). Then you decide.
 

lexrageorge

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To me, the big variable is how Tatum and, to a lesser extent, Brown feel about playing for Stevens.

If they would run through a wall for the guy, he's staying. And put the onus is on Ainge to actually improve the roster during the offseason. If he's unable to do so, you look in a different direction for GM.

If they cannot stand listening to him on a regular basis, then I agree it's time to move on.

If it's somewhere in the middle, I'd like to see how the team does with a retooled roster before moving on from Stevens. Firing the coach is not as zero risk as it's being made out to be. We love to talk about all of the successes, but somehow the teams that have serial coaching fails never get brought up. We don't know who's going to be available, and the new guy could easily be a disaster that causes Tatum to hire Klutch Sports. This season was always going to be a bridge year given the fact that the Celtics had zero chance to compete with the Nets anyway. At this point, not sure missing the playoffs is the worst outcome for the team.

It's also not a hill I'm willing to die on. Sixers were a disaster by the end of last season. Tatum was a way better player than Embiid by the time the playoffs rolled around last season. Now it's the opposite. How much of Embiid's improvement is due to the retooled roster, growth from Embiid, growth from Simmons, or the coach is impossible to disentangle with any degree of precision. I'm willing to acknowledge it's probably a combination of the above.
 

RetractableRoof

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I will say this in general. Ainge has to determine what expectations for the team/play are reasonable given the injuries/residue of last years bubble and short offseason. Then he has to figure out where the blame was from his expectations and the performance. I would think that if the players that are his core have an issue with Brad's approach given all the circumstances above... then he might have to first decide if these are the players he wants to ride with. Because talented or not... mental toughness is one component of success in the NBA. I'm not sure that's all on the coach...
 

Cellar-Door

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There is some amazing short termism and failure to take into account situations here.

I mean if Steph Curry gets COVID tomorrow, he comes back and shoot 31% for 3 in his first 30 games back.... do you trade him because he obviously can't shoot anymore, and whoever you get only needs to shoot 35% to be an upgrade?

No of course not that's stupid. So why do we set the baseline of what it would take to have improved GM and Coach performance on a small sample of injury/illness ravaged games?
 

Jimbodandy

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I will say this in general. Ainge has to determine what expectations for the team/play are reasonable given the injuries/residue of last years bubble and short offseason. Then he has to figure out where the blame was from his expectations and the performance. I would think that if the players that are his core have an issue with Brad's approach given all the circumstances above... then he might have to first decide if these are the players he wants to ride with. Because talented or not... mental toughness is one component of success in the NBA. I'm not sure that's all on the coach...
Danny has to decide on his own approach too. He has been pretty damn conservative the last few years, considering the grab bag of assets that he had at his disposal. I get that players often drive the destination, but lots of white whales landed on other teams, while we stockpiled role players with our draft picks. I'm starting to wonder if he and Pritchard hate each other because they're too much alike.
 

RG33

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This team is just so young and has been so banged up, I don’t see where Brad Stevens is the problem.

I would think that if DA had any inkling of firing Brad Stevens, he would have told him as much two weeks ago when his dream college job was available.

The Boston Celtics are not firing Brad Stevens.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This season was always going to be a bridge year given the fact that the Celtics had zero chance to compete with the Nets anyway.
The Celtics were a Top-6 team in the pre-season Championship Odds betting market and as high as tied for 4th in one that I saw. While I never agreed with that it is revisionist history to suggest that this season was viewed as a bridge year by many people......and the ownership group certainly can’t be pleased.
 

Cellar-Door

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This team is just so young and has been so banged up, I don’t see where Brad Stevens is the problem.

I would think that if DA had any inkling of firing Brad Stevens, he would have told him as much two weeks ago when his dream college job was available.

The Boston Celtics are not firing Brad Stevens.
I don't think Brad Stevens has any interest in coach IU (or any college team), coaching in the NBA is a much better gig unless your sole motivation is cash and having affairs with coeds.
 

RetractableRoof

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I don't think Brad Stevens has any interest in coach IU (or any college team), coaching in the NBA is a much better gig unless your sole motivation is cash and having affairs with coeds.
Or recruiting is your thing, which he has already acknowledged he didn't enjoy. He did seem to enjoy developing character and maturity, which is not typically on the plate with NBA players.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I don’t really get the “Brad’s lost the team so he needs to go” narrative. Because that same argument could have been applied after Kyrie’s last year here - but then the Celtics went on to have a great year immediately after that, as bakahump points out.

I wouldn’t necessarily be against moving on from Brad in the off-season because I do agree that sometimes change for the sake of change can be good, but I worry that whoever they got to replace him wouldn’t be any better and if anything is more likely to be worse. So I think before moving on from him, they should at least have a clear sense of, if not the actual person they want to replace him with, at least the type of coach they want to replace him with and 2-3 realistic options in that category that they think would represent a material improvement for one reason or another (for example they think could connect with Tatum/Brown better, or would be more energetic, or whatever).
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don’t really get the “Brad’s lost the team so he needs to go” narrative. Because that same argument could have been applied after Kyrie’s last year here - but then the Celtics went on to have a great year immediately after that, as bakahump points out.

I wouldn’t necessarily be against moving on from Brad in the off-season because I do agree that sometimes change for the sake of change can be good, but I worry that whoever they got to replace him wouldn’t be any better and if anything is more likely to be worse. So I think before moving on from him, they should at least have a clear sense of, if not the actual person they want to replace him with, at least the type of coach they want to replace him with and 2-3 realistic options in that category that they think would represent a material improvement for one reason or another (for example they think could connect with Tatum/Brown better, or would be more energetic, or whatever).
I don’t think anyone in favor of shaking things up is proposing that Wyc & Co. does so without a clear plan in place moving forward. This is an ownership group of business people who are where they are from forecasting and making calculated decisions.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This board is a results board. Processes don't matter if they don't yield pretty immediate results.
You don’t feel the Boston Celtics ownership group views their investment as a results-oriented business? Do you feel they really care who the coach is over the results that the coach is giving them?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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You don’t feel the Boston Celtics ownership group views their investment as a results-oriented business? Do you feel they really care who the coach is over the results that the coach is giving them?
I don't recall posting those things. I don't know how the ownership group views Stevens, the team's progress versus their planning or anything. You and others seem to have some insight but you keep playing coy when we ask about the nature of your sources.

That said, I think good management understands that even if your process is sound, you still will have many poor outcomes (e.g. losses and playoff defeats). It really depends on where you are versus your bogey. If you are suffering more bad outcomes than you anticipated, at some point, you have to question your processes and measurement techniques. Are we there yet? You know better than we do.

In the end, Stevens lives or dies as Celtics coach based on how Tatum and Brown feel about him. My view is if someone is claiming he has lost them "because I saw the body language on my TV and Perk agrees!" (side note, Perk's brand is trolling current players so I am not sure he is someone with whom to align yourself), you need to show actual supporting evidence. Otherwise, you are just a member of the "storm is coming" crowd with an NBA twist.
 

lexrageorge

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You don’t feel the Boston Celtics ownership group views their investment as a results-oriented business? Do you feel they really care who the coach is over the results that the coach is giving them?
Wyc, Steve, and crew may very well care about the process as well as the results. If they were focused solely on results, they would have fired Stevens after the team won 25 games one year. Most business people weigh carefully the pros and cons before making wholesale changes; "change for change's sake" is actually not a common thread among successful businesses. Continuity among the leadership team can be a real positive; look at the New England Patriots and New York Yankees.

What I'm fairly certain of is that they will hold Ainge to account, as he works directly for the ownership team. If Ainge continues to go to bat for Stevens, Wyc will likely say "That's fine, but now it's your ass if the team starts out 15-18 next season".
 

HomeRunBaker

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Wyc, Steve, and crew may very well care about the process as well as the results. If they were focused solely on results, they would have fired Stevens after the team won 25 games one year. Most business people weigh carefully the pros and cons before making wholesale changes; "change for change's sake" is actually not a common thread among successful businesses. Continuity among the leadership team can be a real positive; look at the New England Patriots and New York Yankees.

What I'm fairly certain of is that they will hold Ainge to account, as he works directly for the ownership team. If Ainge continues to go to bat for Stevens, Wyc will likely say "That's fine, but now it's your ass if the team starts out 15-18 next season".
Who claimed change for the sake of change was good or common or is what anyone here is suggesting?
 

djbayko

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This team is just so young and has been so banged up, I don’t see where Brad Stevens is the problem.

I would think that if DA had any inkling of firing Brad Stevens, he would have told him as much two weeks ago when his dream college job was available.

The Boston Celtics are not firing Brad Stevens.
Yeah, give me a fresh start next season with some new faces and every individual player and coach having a full offseason to think about what they need to do to improve the team. If things go bad next season, sure, get rid of him.

Edit: This assumes the the locker room doesn't, in fact, hate playing for Brad.