Celtics Plan, Summer 2021

PedroKsBambino

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The thing is, we've seen lots of times now that the Celtics look better with shooting/secondary playmaking wings like Fournier than they do with Walker, even when healthy.

It's a Jays team, and Tatum needs the ball
initiating action, and he needs big shooters around him who at least aren't horrific weak links on defense.

This team really doesn't hit its potential with a traditional PG who sacrifices defense imo.
I agree with the goal, the challenge is how to get there. This is where the lack of trade assets and messy cap/contract situation limits them.

I imagine they are trying to solution a Lonzo Ball move, as he'd be a very good fit style-wise and timeline-wise. But it's very hard to get there. That's why I mentioend Satoransky---he's not as good, but much easier to fit and gives some of the same benefits.

I get people being frustrated with TL but the reality in the NBA is you have to live around the cap and the contracts. Letting an asset go and hoping you can replace often doesn't work, especially when (as in Celtics case) you are capped out. The contract size for TL is mostly about lux tax and other slots, not about free agents.
 

bigq

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Yeah, I think you pay him, probably getting a significant discount due to injuries, and gamble on the fact that someone would always gamble on him in a trade if the number is low enough, because his talent is so ridiculous.

What is low enough? Probably under $13M or so, although obv you try to go a lot lower.
Agree with this. Currently I think he it is likely that he sticks around on a team friendly prove it deal but it only takes one GM enamored with his potential to overpay him on his next contract. I don’t think Danny will be the one to overpay.

He is signed through next season. Will be interesting to see how he holds up for one more year.
 

lovegtm

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I agree with the goal, the challenge is how to get there. This is where the lack of trade assets and messy cap/contract situation limits them.

I imagine they are trying to solution a Lonzo Ball move, as he'd be a very good fit style-wise and timeline-wise. But it's very hard to get there. That's why I mentioend Satoransky---he's not as good, but much easier to fit and gives some of the same benefits.

I get people being frustrated with TL but the reality in the NBA is you have to live around the cap and the contracts. Letting an asset go and hoping you can replace often doesn't work, especially when (as in Celtics case) you are capped out. The contract size for TL is mostly about lux tax and other slots, not about free agents.
What is a PG really doing in the Celtics current offense? They looked best last night with Tatum+Smart+Fournier+Langford and a center. Now imagine having Jaylen in there.

Smart can bring the ball up the floor just fine, and it's not hard to see Langford getting there, or Fournier doing it on occasion.

We've been dancing around this for the last few years, and there are all kinds of theoretical reasons why they need a Point Guard, but those reasons rarely seem to translate to games once the team adjusts.

Not trying to rip on you; I get the perspective, just think it's more solvable than we think.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Sorry, I think you are simply agreeing with me. They need someone to be a secondary initiator next to Tatum, someone to defend quicker guards on the perimeter, and someone to shoot open threes off rotations. I've never said that needs to be someone small or a primary PG in the traditional sense. I've made the point a couple times this year that the archetype for them is actually more the Phil Jackson triangle "point guard" than the traditional one. That's why I cite guys like Ball and Satoransky. You can use Smart for the defense on that for half the game, but you need someone there the other half as well don't you? PP can do some of that, but as we're seeing he's limited defensively in a playoff context.
 

lovegtm

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Sorry, I think you are simply agreeing with me. They need someone to be a secondary initiator next to Tatum, someone to defend quicker guards on the perimeter, and someone to shoot open threes off rotations. I've never said that needs to be someone small or a primary PG in the traditional sense. I've made the point a couple times this year that the archetype for them is actually more the Phil Jackson triangle "point guard" than the traditional one. That's why I cite guys like Ball and Satoransky. You can use Smart for the defense on that for half the game, but you need someone there the other half as well don't you? PP can do some of that, but as we're seeing he's limited defensively in a playoff context.
Ah yeah, we see things the same way. Fortunately those guys aren't that hard to find.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Agreed and that was part of my frustration last offseason---they could have gotten a version of that guy easily and it really would have helped when Kemba was out.

Danny, I believe, still thinks they need a traditional "small ballhandler/distributor" and I don't think they do. But possible that Kemba's injury and the skillsets on the roster (including Romeo emerging as a maybe-kind of ballhandler and Fournier) will force them to move on from that model.
 

128

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Agreed and that was part of my frustration last offseason---they could have gotten a version of that guy easily and it really would have helped when Kemba was out.

Danny, I believe, still thinks they need a traditional "small ballhandler/distributor" and I don't think they do. But possible that Kemba's injury and the skillsets on the roster (including Romeo emerging as a maybe-kind of ballhandler and Fournier) will force them to move on from that model.
Danny played with Dennis Johnson, who's exactly the type of bigger point guard who would be great with this offense.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yes, and to lovegtm's point Ainge/DJ doesn't have a traditional ball-dominant guy. You had Bird as the primary initiator (obviously far better than Tatum) and others who could pass and bring ball up.

I just think that's the right idea for this roster given the skillsets. I am not opposed to Chris Paul but, well, he ain't here...
 

lovegtm

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No doubt. He was more of a midrange guy. Coming up today, though, he probably would have developed a 3-point shot.
Yeah, those comparisons aren't relevant given that guys now actually "practice" the 3.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Different game, etc., but DJ’s best 3pt % is .269.
Not only that but do people around back then not remember teams defending his 18-foot jumper like he was 2010 Rajon Rondo? He hardy ever took a contested mid-range shot he was that bad of a perimeter shooter.
 

snowmanny

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It’s crazy how different that mid-80’s team would look if the same guys were playing now. I’d bet Ainge, Bird and McHale would take 15-20 three-pointers a game combined.
 

TripleOT

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As the Jays develop as passers, a true PG becomes less important. A PG with some size, that isn’t hunted defensively, one that can allow complete switchability on defense, is what the Celtics need. That PG who is a plus shooter from three would be a bonus.

Smart could be that PG, if he shot less bad shots, and played under control more. Ideal offensive Kemba wouldn’t even be a good fit on a Jays-centric team, because he gives up whatever points he scores on the defensive end. Hobbled, can’t play B2B Kemba is a horrible fit.

There are a few potential PGs with size that should be available to draft at16: Australian Josh Gidden, Jared Butler from Baylor, Jayden Springer from Tennessee. If they can’t move Kemba, draft a PG and develop him to take over in two seasons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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As the Jays develop as passers, a true PG becomes less important. A PG with some size, that isn’t hunted defensively, one that can allow complete switchability on defense, is what the Celtics need. That PG who is a plus shooter from three would be a bonus.

Smart could be that PG, if he shot less bad shots, and played under control more. Ideal offensive Kemba wouldn’t even be a good fit on a Jays-centric team, because he gives up whatever points he scores on the defensive end. Hobbled, can’t play B2B Kemba is a horrible fit.

There are a few potential PGs with size that should be available to draft at16: Australian Josh Gidden, Jared Butler from Baylor, Jayden Springer from Tennessee. If they can’t move Kemba, draft a PG and develop him to take over in two seasons.
Or just go Yam on the league.
 

DourDoerr

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Not only that but do people around back then not remember teams defending his 18-foot jumper like he was 2010 Rajon Rondo? He hardy ever took a contested mid-range shot he was that bad of a perimeter shooter.
This squares with my memories. There’s little doubt he’d be better, but I’d be surprised if he was good. Not a terrible FT shooter (.797), so there’s hope.
 

nighthob

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There are a few potential PGs with size that should be available to draft at16: Australian Josh Gidden, Jared Butler from Baylor, Jayden Springer from Tennessee. If they can’t move Kemba, draft a PG and develop him to take over in two seasons.
Giddey may not make it out of the lottery, similarly with Springer. But if Springer is available at #16 I hope Boston grabs him. Butler has a combo guard’s game and would be ideal as a 1 here in Boston.
 

Rook05

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Are we sure Jaylen Brown is untouchable? Don’t get me wrong, he’s my favorite Celtic, and I think he’ll be in our lives a long time after his playing days…but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the rumor mill start up over the summer.

His skill set isn’t exactly complementary to Tatum, aside from not having to run an offense for him and super reasonable contract.

I’m not saying the Celtics should trade Jaylen, and I’d be happy watching the two of them for the next decade. But he’s the best non-Tatum asset to consider moving if you think this team needs a bigger shake up.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Are we sure Jaylen Brown is untouchable? Don’t get me wrong, he’s my favorite Celtic, and I think he’ll be in our lives a long time after his playing days…but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the rumor mill start up over the summer.

His skill set isn’t exactly complementary to Tatum, aside from not having to run an offense for him and super reasonable contract.

I’m not saying the Celtics should trade Jaylen, and I’d be happy watching the two of them for the next decade. But he’s the best non-Tatum asset to consider moving if you think this team needs a bigger shake up.
If one of the top players in the league has a falling out with his team, I could see Jaylen being traded for that player. Outside of that, I don't see him going anywhere. I'm also not sure there are that many players on JB's level that are more complementary to Tatum. Not available ones anyway.
 

Jimbodandy

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If one of the top players in the league has a falling out with his team, I could see Jaylen being traded for that player. Outside of that, I don't see him going anywhere. I'm also not sure there are that many players on JB's level that are more complementary to Tatum. Not available ones anyway.
This is all correct. You could trade JB for someone whose game is more complementary to JT's, sure, but you would be downgrading in talent.

JB isn't a ball stopper. He's a fine fit for Tatum, who isn't going to go for 50 every night. Jaylen can take over possessions, but also be a great shooter when Tatum kicks. He's also a menace in transition. It's a stupid play to trade him unless a top 10 player shoots his way out of town, and maybe even then.
 

Cesar Crespo

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This is all correct. You could trade JB for someone whose game is more complementary to JT's, sure, but you would be downgrading in talent.

JB isn't a ball stopper. He's a fine fit for Tatum, who isn't going to go for 50 every night. Jaylen can take over possessions, but also be a great shooter when Tatum kicks. He's also a menace in transition. It's a stupid play to trade him unless a top 10 player shoots his way out of town, and maybe even then.
If he were a little less robotic in his playmaking, Jaylen would be a great fit with Tatum. As is, he's a good one. I think Jaylen Brown is one of the most underrated shooters in the league. He's also not horrible defensively, although this year it looks like he slipped a lot. The C's did as a whole though.

A team needs at least 2 scorers (guys who can get their own shots) anyway. I think Jaylen and Jayson would work even better if they had the right players around them. I think the non complementary parts are Kemba and to a lesser extent, Smart. Jaylen and Jayson are not the problem, they are part of the solution.

Everyone else is the "problem" for various reasons ranging from health to fit to inexperience. TL is a great fit if healthy. AN is a great fit if he turns into that 16-20 point scorer on great shooting, decent rebounding and passable defense. Langford is a great fit if he's healthy and develops any type of offensive game. TL is a problem because he's never healthy. AN is a problem because he's unproven/inexperienced. RL is a problem because of injuries and being unproven/inexperienced. I could go on for every other play on the team.

Personally, I keep JT and JB. I try to hold on to AN. I try to extend TL really cheap for 2-4 years, barring that I explore his trade value. I look into an S&T on Fournier but don't hesitate to bring him back if there aren't any good offers. I try like hell to move Kemba and would attach anyone not named JT, JB and AN to do so, including the 2021 pick. I know some people would disagree but I'd gladly give a team Romeo or the pick if it meant moving on from Kemba. I'd gladly give both if there were other deals lined up. Id consider AN too if it meant getting a player the caliber of JT or JB.

Depending on what happens with Kemba, I'd either keep Smart to be the PG or look to trade him for a more traditional 3+D guy if the C's acquired someone like Lonzo to run point. If they use their pick, I'd pick BPA and hope it was a long athletic big.

I don't think anyone else really has enough value on their own to be traded. I'd might try to move on from TT too for a cheaper option and if that didn't work out, pick up a big at the deadline or after buyouts because they seem to be readily available.

Depending on the poster, the C's probably have anywhere from 2 to 6 keepers (JT, JB, TL, AN, EF, MS). I'm sure Kemba and TT have some support but I doubt there would be much uproar if they were traded away. I have 2 hard keepers (JT, JB) and 2 soft keepers. (TL, AN). My 5th keep would be the 1st round pick.
 

lovegtm

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If he were a little less robotic in his playmaking, Jaylen would be a great fit with Tatum. As is, he's a good one. I think Jaylen Brown is one of the most underrated shooters in the league. He's also not horrible defensively, although this year it looks like he slipped a lot. The C's did as a whole though.

A team needs at least 2 scorers (guys who can get their own shots) anyway. I think Jaylen and Jayson would work even better if they had the right players around them. I think the non complementary parts are Kemba and to a lesser extent, Smart. Jaylen and Jayson are not the problem, they are part of the solution.

Everyone else is the "problem" for various reasons ranging from health to fit to inexperience. TL is a great fit if healthy. AN is a great fit if he turns into that 16-20 point scorer on great shooting, decent rebounding and passable defense. Langford is a great fit if he's healthy and develops any type of offensive game. TL is a problem because he's never healthy. AN is a problem because he's unproven/inexperienced. RL is a problem because of injuries and being unproven/inexperienced. I could go on for every other play on the team.

Personally, I keep JT and JB. I try to hold on to AN. I try to extend TL really cheap for 2-4 years, barring that I explore his trade value. I look into an S&T on Fournier but don't hesitate to bring him back if there aren't any good offers. I try like hell to move Kemba and would attach anyone not named JT, JB and AN to do so, including the 2021 pick. I know some people would disagree but I'd gladly give a team Romeo or the pick if it meant moving on from Kemba. I'd gladly give both if there were other deals lined up. Id consider AN too if it meant getting a player the caliber of JT or JB.

Depending on what happens with Kemba, I'd either keep Smart to be the PG or look to trade him for a more traditional 3+D guy if the C's acquired someone like Lonzo to run point. If they use their pick, I'd pick BPA and hope it was a long athletic big.

I don't think anyone else really has enough value on their own to be traded. I'd might try to move on from TT too for a cheaper option and if that didn't work out, pick up a big at the deadline or after buyouts because they seem to be readily available.

Depending on the poster, the C's probably have anywhere from 2 to 6 keepers (JT, JB, TL, AN, EF, MS). I'm sure Kemba and TT have some support but I doubt there would be much uproar if they were traded away. I have 2 hard keepers (JT, JB) and 2 soft keepers. (TL, AN). My 5th keep would be the 1st round pick.
I'm mostly on board with this. The only quibble is that I wouldn't give away Romeo unless he were being valued as an asset in the deal (ie you got to lower some other part of the offer). People mistake this for prospect-humping, but it's pretty different.
 

Jimbodandy

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If he were a little less robotic in his playmaking, Jaylen would be a great fit with Tatum. As is, he's a good one. I think Jaylen Brown is one of the most underrated shooters in the league. He's also not horrible defensively, although this year it looks like he slipped a lot. The C's did as a whole though.

A team needs at least 2 scorers (guys who can get their own shots) anyway. I think Jaylen and Jayson would work even better if they had the right players around them. I think the non complementary parts are Kemba and to a lesser extent, Smart. Jaylen and Jayson are not the problem, they are part of the solution.

Everyone else is the "problem" for various reasons ranging from health to fit to inexperience. TL is a great fit if healthy. AN is a great fit if he turns into that 16-20 point scorer on great shooting, decent rebounding and passable defense. Langford is a great fit if he's healthy and develops any type of offensive game. TL is a problem because he's never healthy. AN is a problem because he's unproven/inexperienced. RL is a problem because of injuries and being unproven/inexperienced. I could go on for every other play on the team.

Personally, I keep JT and JB. I try to hold on to AN. I try to extend TL really cheap for 2-4 years, barring that I explore his trade value. I look into an S&T on Fournier but don't hesitate to bring him back if there aren't any good offers. I try like hell to move Kemba and would attach anyone not named JT, JB and AN to do so, including the 2021 pick. I know some people would disagree but I'd gladly give a team Romeo or the pick if it meant moving on from Kemba. I'd gladly give both if there were other deals lined up. Id consider AN too if it meant getting a player the caliber of JT or JB.

Depending on what happens with Kemba, I'd either keep Smart to be the PG or look to trade him for a more traditional 3+D guy if the C's acquired someone like Lonzo to run point. If they use their pick, I'd pick BPA and hope it was a long athletic big.

I don't think anyone else really has enough value on their own to be traded. I'd might try to move on from TT too for a cheaper option and if that didn't work out, pick up a big at the deadline or after buyouts because they seem to be readily available.

Depending on the poster, the C's probably have anywhere from 2 to 6 keepers (JT, JB, TL, AN, EF, MS). I'm sure Kemba and TT have some support but I doubt there would be much uproar if they were traded away. I have 2 hard keepers (JT, JB) and 2 soft keepers. (TL, AN). My 5th keep would be the 1st round pick.
Yeah slight variances here and there, but I'm onboard for most of what you're saying here.

I like NG and RL as fit guys maybe a bit more than you do, but far from attached to either. And I'm not in much hurry to move on from MS and TT for toughness reasons, but again, if there are upgrades, I'm all in there too.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm mostly on board with this. The only quibble is that I wouldn't give away Romeo unless he were being valued as an asset in the deal (ie you got to lower some other part of the offer). People mistake this for prospect-humping, but it's pretty different.
Wanting value for a player or not wanting to sell low on a player isn't prospect humping. I doubt RL has any value but I wasn't really giving him away. I'd argue it's selling him for $70 million.

RL is most likely someone the C's hang out to because there's no point selling for a penny.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah slight variances here and there, but I'm onboard for most of what you're saying here.

I like NG and RL as fit guys maybe a bit more than you do, but far from attached to either. And I'm not in much hurry to move on from MS and TT for toughness reasons, but again, if there are upgrades, I'm all in there too.
I think NG is a great fit. I do wonder how he ages and I'm the type to explore every option. His defense is suspect but on offense he replaces a lot of what Gordon did. I like him even more in non Kemba lineups.

I must come across really harsh on RL, but a defensive wing has a 15 minute role and fits on pretty much every team in the NBA. I don't see him being much more than that. His path to being a really productive player involves him doing things he is not naturally good at (shooting, playing point). I don't think that's a player the C's bother re-signing to a 2nd contract.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think NG is a great fit. I do wonder how he ages and I'm the type to explore every option. His defense is suspect but on offense he replaces a lot of what Gordon did. I like him even more in non Kemba lineups.

I must come across really harsh on RL, but a defensive wing has a 15 minute role and fits on pretty much every team in the NBA. I don't see him being much more than that. His path to being a really productive player involves him doing things he is not naturally good at (shooting, playing point). I don't think that's a player the C's bother re-signing to a 2nd contract.
You might be right on RL, but he has a history of being able to handle the ball. And shooting is something that can be learned. Not necessarily 40% shooting but enough.

I'm not sky high on him either, but a ballhandling guy his size/length with his defense is something to dream on, even if he's never any better than a league average shooter.
 

Auger34

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This summer should be about these things and these things only:
1) Get rid of everyone you can except for Brown, Tatum, Williams, and Nesmith
2) Get a pass-first PG to facilitate the offense
3) Surround Brown and Tatum with as many 3-and-D guys as possible

Every move this summer has to be with the thought of maximizing Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown's abilities. They desperately need a facilitating PG and getting as much 3 pt shooting on the floor to space the floor out so that the J's have room to do their thing. There's too many cooks in the kitchen right now with Kemba and Smart.

Fournier, Walker, and Smart should not be on this team next year.
I don’t agree or strongly disagree with the main thesis here but I think you’re missing a pretty key thing here, especially if Ainge follows your steps.

The roster as it currently stands could use more playmaking/facilitators/players that Brad described as “keeping the line moving”. You’ve replaced arguably their 3 best facilitators with only 1 of those types. It would be a major major issue next year with these proposed changes
 

HomeRunBaker

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Are we sure Jaylen Brown is untouchable? Don’t get me wrong, he’s my favorite Celtic, and I think he’ll be in our lives a long time after his playing days…but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the rumor mill start up over the summer.

His skill set isn’t exactly complementary to Tatum, aside from not having to run an offense for him and super reasonable contract.

I’m not saying the Celtics should trade Jaylen, and I’d be happy watching the two of them for the next decade. But he’s the best non-Tatum asset to consider moving if you think this team needs a bigger shake up.
Interesting question for sure. I’m not sure Ainge is the guy to make this bold move but if for whatever reason he isn’t calling the shots over the next two summers the new guy will be looking to shake things up to put his stamp on his team much like Ainge did when he moved Antoine.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Interesting question for sure. I’m not sure Ainge is the guy to make this bold move but if for whatever reason he isn’t calling the shots over the next two summers the new guy will be looking to shake things up to put his stamp on his team much like Ainge did when he moved Antoine.
The Bradley Beal question. If someone better than Beal is available, it's not very bold to trade Brown for them.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sure but I’m assuming Beal isn’t available nor would it be anyone as good as him.
Right. I was mostly agreeing with you in a weird way.

Except I don't see JB being traded unless it's for someone clearly better than he is. That only happens if someone demands a trade. Anything less than Bradley Beal is very bold. There may be a few players I'm spacing on. You mentioned Sabonis earlier this year, but only if chemistry were actually an issue. I think it was you, or someone did.

If chemistry isn't an issue though, what players are out there around JB's value that would be better fits for the Celtics?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Kemba Walker
Jaylen Brown
TT

For
Brandon Ingram
Lonzo Ball
Steven Adams

That would assume NO values Jaylen Brown over Ingram and doesn't care to bring Ball back. The C's would free themselves of Kemba's contract but be on the hook for Adams in 22/23 at 18 million.

This would require a 4/80 to 4/96 contract for Lonzo.

There are probably lots of flaws with the trade but it would be a huge shake up. Part of me thinks NO wouldn't do it and part of me thinks the C's wouldn't.
 

lovegtm

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Kemba Walker
Jaylen Brown
TT

For
Brandon Ingram
Lonzo Ball
Steven Adams

That would assume NO values Jaylen Brown over Ingram and doesn't care to bring Ball back. The C's would free themselves of Kemba's contract but be on the hook for Adams in 22/23 at 18 million.

This would require a 4/80 to 4/96 contract for Lonzo.

There are probably lots of flaws with the trade but it would be a huge shake up. Part of me thinks NO wouldn't do it and part of me thinks the C's wouldn't.
Huh, I was going to dismiss it, but that's a surprisingly interesting trade.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm not sky high on him either, but a ballhandling guy his size/length with his defense is something to dream on, even if he's never any better than a league average shooter.
Yeah, RL was really good in PnR in college as a freshman.

Given that the Cs have a limited numbers of ways to upgrade their talent, the Cs would be foolish IMO to give away his potential upside (which admittedly may never happen) unless the Cs got something substantive in return.
 

BigSoxFan

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Kemba Walker
Jaylen Brown
TT

For
Brandon Ingram
Lonzo Ball
Steven Adams

That would assume NO values Jaylen Brown over Ingram and doesn't care to bring Ball back. The C's would free themselves of Kemba's contract but be on the hook for Adams in 22/23 at 18 million.

This would require a 4/80 to 4/96 contract for Lonzo.

There are probably lots of flaws with the trade but it would be a huge shake up. Part of me thinks NO wouldn't do it and part of me thinks the C's wouldn't.
Not crazy. That’a essentially what a Jaylen trade would look like. You’re not getting a better headliner than Jaylen but maybe you get 2-3 guys that make it worth it.

Another option I was thinking about was Jaylen to Atlanta for some combination of Bogdan, Hunter, and Okongwu. To get all 3 would obviously require more assets on our end.
 

lovegtm

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We're giving away the best player in both of those deals. Not interested.
Yeah, you pretty much never want to give away the better player in an NBA trade if you're not rebuilding. I'm sure there are exceptions, but they're rare.

The NO trade is interesting if you think Ingram can be the better offensive player, and that Jaylen's defense is overrated. I haven't thought about it enough, but that would be the bet imo.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yeah, you pretty much never want to give away the better player in an NBA trade if you're not rebuilding. I'm sure there are exceptions, but they're rare.

The NO trade is interesting if you think Ingram can be the better offensive player, and that Jaylen's defense is overrated. I haven't thought about it enough, but that would be the bet imo.

Yup. It’s why a Jaylen trade isn’t happening. You aren’t getting a comparable player and building better depth in the 3-8 spots doesn’t make it worth it.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
We're giving away the best player in both of those deals. Not interested.
I figured someone would take that stance but is Jaylen that much better than Ingram to not upgrade from Kemba to Ball? Ingram is arguably the better offensive player and has all the tools to play defense. He's also 10 months younger than Jaylen Brown which isn't nothing.

With Ingram and Ball, the team's ball movement goes from a negative to a positive. The defense probably improves overall too because the difference from Kemba to Ball is huge. I think it would come down to effort with Ingram and I've noticed he and Tatum have a little thing going. I think he'd put in the effort.

TL
Tatum
Ingram
Smart
Ball
Adams
Evan Fournier

I think that is one hell of a top 7. Then the team still has AN, RL and friends plus their pick.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,620
My biggest ? Is if TL can ever stay healthy. If he could I have no problem running

Smart
Fournier
Brown
Tatum
TL

on the court and hope one of RL, AN develop.

I’m not trading Brown unless I get Brad Beal or equivalent.
 

Senator Donut

post-Domer
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2010
5,500
I’ve been thinking about the Sixers 2020 off-season for any parallels the to the Celtics’ current malaise. There are several obvious points of comparison. Both will likely be coming off a disappointing playoff exit in which one of their two stars was injured. They are also capped out for the considerable future, due to the extensions given to those two stars.

The Sixers cleaned house organizationally and decided to build around Simmons and Embiid with players that complement their skillsets, targeting jump shooters like Curry and Green. They also hired a coach who had proven to get the most out of one of their worst signings (Harris) while attaching a first to jettison the other (Horford).

I’m not sure the Celtics have a similar path forward though. The simultaneous Kemba/Horford contracts might be more friendly for OKC, as the final year of Al’s deal isn’t fully guaranteed. Unlike Harris, the issue for Walker isn’t playing to his full potential, but being healthy enough to be a full-time starter.

I think the biggest shortcoming of Ainge’s roster building was making no in-season trades between the IT and Fournier swaps. Those are the types of low-cost marginal upgrades that the team could have used. I had no issue with Ainge saving his high lottery draft picks, but refusing to deal late first picks that he had to stash (Zizic) or roll forward (Pritchard) really gutted the back end of the roster.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Would people here trade Jaylen for Beal if we could?

Beal is obviously the better scorer and offensive player, but I'm not sure he and Tatum (despite being friends) are really a great fit. Jaylen I would describe as "confusingly average" on D, but that's still much better than Beal.

Jaylen has his age 24-26 seasons coming up at 24/26/28M
Beal has his age 28-29 seasons coming up at 35/37M

Ingram is another interesting thought, though I'm not sure he moves the needle either. As frustrating as this team has been, I'm not sure you want to make a change to your top 2 guys just to make a change. Of those 3 guys to pair with Tatum, I'd probably still choose Brown when you consider age, contract, and skillset.
 

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dhellers

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2005
4,203
Silver Spring, Maryland
I think the idea of moving Kemba at relatively little cost is fanciful. If he plays well enough that the contract is neutral or positive value, then we would want him in Green. So if you are going to move him you either have to pay or take back another negative asset.

Anyone want to try the John Wall experience?
Would you gamble on butler for walker swap? A different world of issues that might work out ok for two years
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Would you gamble on butler for walker swap? A different world of issues that might work out ok for two years
Jimmy Butler?

I'd drive Kemba to the airport and staple some first round picks to his bags.

Butler is an awkward fit and has his own issues but he is still really good.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,997
The more I think about it, the more the summer plan is simple: do a 2020 Sixers summer. You've got the primary star, and you've got the secondary star. You looked bad all year and took an early playoff exit due to injuries, but that base is still there.

The specifics will vary depending on what's there in the market, but the outline is straightforward. Do whatever it takes to turn the roster into a win-now one, built around the 2 guys who are your clear stars. Pay to jettison your bad contract, ideally adding a role player or two in the deal. Don't throw away useful young players for nothing, but don't be attached to binkies because you drafted them. Get vets in, ideally ones who can shoot a bit.

I have very little confidence at this point that Ainge can execute this plan, since he seems attached to his sunk costs in a lot of ways. Hopefully he will prove me wrong.

(The above all assumes that there is not some super-duper deal out there for Jaylen; obviously I'd be all ears if one arises.)
 
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