Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season

Eddie Jurak said:

I think Schroder is a negative asset to this team right now because his contributions on the court are offset by him blocking other guys.

Pritchard is a good example. Having gotten a chance to play in the past couple of games, he's clearly gotten his confidence back and started looking like the guy from last year.

Other than the garbage time explosion against Portland, the past two games have been Pritchard's best, and he has obviously gone from not trusting his shot (and not even willing to take his shot if someone was closing out) to able to get the shot off quickly and accurately. 6 for 12 from three over the past 2 games, 12-19 overall, for 40 points in 50 minutes.

IT would be one thing if the Celtics were a contening team, but they aren't. All you get from Schroder at this point is a year of organizational treading water. Time to move him. Well, maybe not time now, but once people get healthy.

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This is a massive overreaction to Pritchard going up against primarily Kemba and Seth Curry in the last two games which were ideal matchups for him. Trading Schroder is punting on the season as Pritchard isn’t going to have many of those favorable matchups. If we are looking to compete in the playoffs we either must retain Schroder or replace him with a similar type player. I’m still hoping to somehow land Tyus Jones to be our guy moving forward as I don’t see how Memphis can afford to sign him to play behind Morant. It seems he’d have to be available at the deadline.

HomeRunBaker said:

This is a massive overreaction to Pritchard going up against primarily Kemba and Seth Curry in the last two games which were ideal matchups for him. Trading Schroder is punting on the season as Pritchard isn’t going to have many of those favorable matchups. If we are looking to compete in the playoffs we either must retain Schroder or replace him with a similar type player. I’m still hoping to somehow land Tyus Jones to be our guy moving forward as I don’t see how Memphis can afford to sign him to play behind Morant. It seems he’d have to be available at the deadline.

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To me "the season" means most likely play in game and a first round exit. And I see Schroder as a guy who both contributes and detracts with his play, making him a net neutral. Which is to say, I think we are headed towards first round exit with or without him.

If he was here for the long term it might be worth figuring out how to fit him in with the rest of the team. As things stand, any such efforts are wasted because he is gone anyway.

Schroder is a ballandler who can create offense for himself but not a point guard who can consistently create for anyone else. Smart is the opposite of that. Maybe if we had (or could have) Schroder here long term it would be worth it to figure out how to make that kind of a backcourt work - all the skills there but split between the two guards in an atypical way. As it stands, the benefits of that expire at year's end.

Move him. Invest evaluation and development efforts on Richardson, Pritchard, Langford, Nesmith, Grant - guys who can be here beyond this season.

I wouldn't agree that DS is a negative asset, but I do agree that the Celtics need to figure out if PP and AN have any role on this team moving forward. I also don't see this team doing anything other than a first round exit (if they even get that far). While I do like PP's shooting - I'm not optimistic that he fits in with the defensive identity of this team. Maybe we can trade him to Utah?

NomarsFool said:

I wouldn't agree that DS is a negative asset, but I do agree that the Celtics need to figure out if PP and AN have any role on this team moving forward. I also don't see this team doing anything other than a first round exit (if they even get that far). While I do like PP's shooting - I'm not optimistic that he fits in with the defensive identity of this team. Maybe we can trade him to Utah?

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I'm coming around to the "play them and find out" mode of thinking.

Both Brad and Ime had/have quick hooks. This understandable when you're trying to be a contender, but I'm afraid that it seems to have created an atmosphere where guys are looking over their shoulders a bit. Maybe this covid bump will solve that problem for us. If these guys know that they're getting minutes due to roster depth problems, and the starters aren't feeling like guys are getting minutes that they didn't earn, maybe we see more signs of life and natural rhythm play from AN, RL, and PP.

HomeRunBaker said:

This is a massive overreaction to Pritchard going up against primarily Kemba and Seth Curry in the last two games which were ideal matchups for him. Trading Schroder is punting on the season as Pritchard isn’t going to have many of those favorable matchups. If we are looking to compete in the playoffs we either must retain Schroder or replace him with a similar type player. I’m still hoping to somehow land Tyus Jones to be our guy moving forward as I don’t see how Memphis can afford to sign him to play behind Morant. It seems he’d have to be available at the deadline.

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What use would Memphis have for Schroder? And while I like Tyus Jones, I don't see him making much of a difference in the Celtics playoff aspirations. At least, they'd have the ability to re-sign him I guess.

Cesar Crespo said:

What use would Memphis have for Schroder? And while I like Tyus Jones, I don't see him making much of a difference in the Celtics playoff aspirations. At least, they'd have the ability to re-sign him I guess.

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I’m referring to Jones long-term but he’s a much better player than Pritchard and could replace Schroder this year. I didn’t mean DS to Memphis but as part of multiple moves to bring in Jones as we move Schroder elsewhere.

DS is like Westbrook lite. He raises the floor when guys are out but dominates the ball and doesn‘t add much when everyone is healthy. I also think that PP, AN, and RL should get some run so we can see if there us anything there.

I can't imagine Shroder netting us a first round pick. He was freely available this offseason and the best offer he got was the mini mid level. He is what he is, which is not a difference maker.

the moops said:

I can't imagine Shroder netting us a first round pick. He was freely available this offseason and the best offer he got was the mini mid level. He is what he is, which is not a difference maker.

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He reportedly turned down $84/4 from the Lakers, then got stuck as the musical chairs stopped and no one who wanted him had real cap space for him.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/dennis-schroder-pokes-fun-at-his-decision-to-pass-on-84-million-lakers-contract-on-instagram/

That doesn’t necessarily predict what kind of return he’d get now, but his contract situation was a little more complicated than just the deal he got from the Celtics.

the moops said:

I can't imagine Shroder netting us a first round pick. He was freely available this offseason and the best offer he got was the mini mid level. He is what he is, which is not a difference maker.

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we'd only want a late 1st if that was sent out as part of a larger deal.
Tre Jones, blocked and getting expensive, is the type of player the Celtics should try to squeeze out of DS 3-way deal.

COVID cap + FA timing limited his market. Plus he chose a situation where he'd get minutes (w/Kemba jettisoned)

"best offer" is vacuum analysis taken out of context, we have no idea what his best $$$ offer was

DS is a useful third guard and secondary scorer for a playoff team, but you need one who has that specific pair of needs because he’s also a really specific asset. He’s not a plus passer, shooter, or defender, doesn’t have size for more than PG defense, and is a low-grade ball dominant guy not a true role player. So if you don’t need specifically what he is, you really don’t want him at all.

Clippers seem like a potential fit to me. Several other “maybes”. Ideal trade to me combines him with something else to get you a legit asset—a young player who hasn’t bloomed but you like, or a 1st.

I think if DS gets moved, it will be closer to trade deadline (unless the bottom falls completely out) because as noted above, trading DS punts the season and I don't think JB or JT believe that.

I thought last night DS was trying to make quicker decisions and pound the ball less. BRef has his USG% at just over 20%, which is below his season average. As I noted in the game thread, I also thought it was super interesting that DS didn't play at all in the 4Q last night.

A first round pick seems like a stretch for a Schroder rental.

Even if they can get it, it has to be weighed against a roster that has, for as long as Tatum and Brown have been in Boston, been light on actual NBA talent. For example, a 2027 protected 1-3, 10-15 pick may look spiffy in Brad's asset chest but its not going to help foster more ball movement on offense this year (not that DS does that either but he is a productive NBA player).

These aren't the up and coming C's of five years ago. Even if they aren't going to contend, they need actual talent around Tatum and Brown now, not in a few seasons. The risk of running this team like its still rebuilding is that both players revert to more of a DIY approach near-term while the odds of their respective departures increase.

Eddie Jurak said:

I think Schroder is a negative asset to this team right now because his contributions on the court are offset by him blocking other guys.

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There are many reasons to trade Schroder before the deadline — principally, he has value and won’t likely be extended after the season — but given this team’s continued struggles with injuries, COVID, and mediocrity, blocking other guys like Payton Pritchard is not foremost among them.

the moops said:

I can't imagine Shroder netting us a first round pick. He was freely available this offseason and the best offer he got was the mini mid level. He is what he is, which is not a difference maker.

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I have my doubts too but it's not really about DS's trade value. It's about evaluating and possibly improving the trade values of RL, AN and PP. Those 3 players probably have very limited value right now and aren't given much of an opportunity to change that.

If trading DS for a 2nd allows you to play RL, AN and PP more and one of them runs with it, it will be far more valuable than DS. If AN starts playing 20 minutes a night consistently and averages 12.9 points, 4.3 boards, 2.1 assists on .474/.432/.824 shooting over his last 38 games... what kind of value does that have in a trade this summer? That probably won't happen, but it definitely won't happen with DS playing 33 mpg.

If one thinks this team is looking at a 1st round exit with or without DS, the correct play is to move DS for whatever value they can get and to build up the values of the young players. It's the better strategy in the medium and long term. There's a small chance it hurts the teams W/L total this regular season but there's also a chance they get better due to more minutes from JRich and improvement from one of the young players or more mix and match lineups.

With full health and a DS trade
Minutes I'd give/Minutes they actually get. This assumes DS is traded for a pick, nota player.

Tatum 34 (36.6)
Brown 34 (32.8)
Smart 30 (34.2)
JRich 30 (25.2)
GWill 26 (22.1)
Horford 24 (29.6)
TL 22 (27.7)
RL/AN/PP 40 (39.5)

Once you factor in injuries, there should be considerably more than 40 minutes to go around for the last 3 and the top 7 will probably be a minute or two higher as well.

Schroder has played 919 minutes this year. Disbursing his minutes equally among RL, AN and PP

RL goes from 18.1 mpg to 30.8 mpg. (24 games) 434 minutes to 740 minutes.
AN goes from 10.8 to 22.6 (27) 282 to 588
PP goes from 10.6 to 22.8 (25) 265 to 571

Disburse them amongst JRich, GWill, RL/AN/PP equally:
RL 18.1 to 25.8 (24) 434 to 618
AN 10.8 to 17.3 (27) 282 to 466
PP 10.6 to 18.0 (25) 265 to 449
GW 22.1 to 28.6 (28) 618 to 802
JR 25.2 to 33.6 (22) 555 to 739

Those are close to the minutes some of us have been asking for all year long. GW and JR might be a little too high, but some of those minutes can go to AN/PP or even Kanter.

The answer where to find the extra time for GW and JRich, and developmental time for RL, AN and PP is a very simple one. Even more so given that player has no future here and is on an easily movable contract.

I'm not a cap guy so if I'm wrong correct me. Would moving DS just to dump Hernangomez be beneficial to the Celtics? I know it gets them under the luxury tax. That would save the owners $9.8 million in tax this year, anyway. Might make more sense than a 2nd round pick, or even a late 1st. Again, I'm not a cap guy but I would guess being under the luxury tax is a better thing than a late 1st or early 2nd? As a fan, not an owner. As an owner, it makes a ton of sense to save $10+ million. Does it reset anything?

PedroKsBambino said:

DS is a useful third guard and secondary scorer for a playoff team, but you need one who has that specific pair of needs because he’s also a really specific asset. He’s not a plus passer, shooter, or defender, doesn’t have size for more than PG defense, and is a low-grade ball dominant guy not a true role player. So if you don’t need specifically what he is, you really don’t want him at all.

Clippers seem like a potential fit to me. Several other “maybes”. Ideal trade to me combines him with something else to get you a legit asset—a young player who hasn’t bloomed but you like, or a 1st.

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Secondary scorer off the bench is how Ime has tried to use Schroder when he's got a full roster, but that's been rare. He's also gotten lambasted for it here.

If you do want to trade DS it seems the last thing you'd want to do is staple him to the bench.

chilidawg said:

Secondary scorer off the bench is how Ime has tried to use Schroder when he's got a full roster, but that's been rare. He's also gotten lambasted for it here.

If you do want to trade DS it seems the last thing you'd want to do is staple him to the bench.

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Or maybe you would.

His ghastly box score tonight doesn't even tell the whole story of how bad he was. Might not want people to see tape of tonight's game, or you'll be lucky to get a top55 protected pick.

I love having a guy around who can get past his man without help, but Schroeder was like instant offense tonight...for Cleveland.

Jimbodandy said:

Or maybe you would.

His ghastly box score tonight doesn't even tell the whole story of how bad he was. Might not want people to see tape of tonight's game, or you'll be lucky to get a top55 protected pick.

I love having a guy around who can get past his man without help, but Schroeder was like instant offense tonight...for Cleveland.

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DS+PP+Freedom was an unbelievable choice by Ime; that was hard to watch.

Now that he's remembered how to shoot (no mask?), I'd really like to see a lot more PP and less DS.

lovegtm said:

DS+PP+Freedom was an unbelievable choice by Ime; that was hard to watch.

Now that he's remembered how to shoot (no mask?), I'd really like to see a lot more PP and less DS.

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That's exactly what's been happening the last 3 games. DS has been playing less, PP more.

DS should not be on this team. His only role is blocking young players.

Cesar Crespo said:

That's exactly what's been happening the last 3 games. DS has been playing less, PP more.

DS should not be on this team. His only role is blocking young players.

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Coaches have boners for vets; it's annoying.

Jimbodandy said:

Or maybe you would.

His ghastly box score tonight doesn't even tell the whole story of how bad he was. Might not want people to see tape of tonight's game, or you'll be lucky to get a top55 protected pick.

I love having a guy around who can get past his man without help, but Schroeder was like instant offense tonight...for Cleveland.

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Yeah he was terrible last night. Last few games have been rough for him, interesting to see Ime respond quickly to that and give PP minutes over him, that hasn't been his coaching M.O. Hopefully Schroder can get back to where he was earlier, when he was actually pretty good.

Cesar Crespo said:

That's exactly what's been happening the last 3 games. DS has been playing less, PP more.

DS should not be on this team. His only role is blocking young players.

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Perhaps its overreacting to a couple of bad games, but I'm starting to come around to trading DS. Someone called him a Westbrook-light floor raiser, which is accurate, but he also seems to be a ceiling limiter.

He is a horrible fit when both JT and JB are playing, as he needs the ball in his hands, and isn't nearly enough of a shooter to provide spacing for them. I know the stats with DS as a starter are miserable, but I would guess the stats would also show he looks much better when JB has been hurt. MS seems to have improved as the PG since the beginning of the year, which also limits DS's usefulness when JT and JB are healthy.

lovegtm said:

Coaches have boners for vets; it's annoying.

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Yes but we saw last season what happens when a team relies on youth. It's really hard for young teams to win consistently.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

Yes but we saw last season what happens when a team relies on youth. It's really hard for young teams to win consistently.

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They aren't winning consistently anyway.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

Yes but we saw last season what happens when a team relies on youth. It's really hard for young teams to win consistently.

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The young guys (GW, RL, PP, AN) are much better complimentary players this season. So they can and should be relied upon. Brad did a good job moving out the chaff (Edwards, Tre, Tacko, Kornet, Semi).
Grant and Romeo were next to useless last year (due to weight/injuries) but credit PBS for recognizing they had value/upside. PP looks to be shaking off the broken nose and there is a shooter in Nesmith that needs to be developed/brought out.

The win/loss expectancy for this .500 team probably won't change much if you up Grant/Romeo/PP/AN minutes while moving DS for future assets. They should also consider selling high on JRich if there is demand around the league (don't see him continuing to shoot 40% from 3).

back to last night's game: I've been a Rob Williams critic recently but TL had one of his best games this season.
Mostly due to not having to face Allen/Mobley BUT we probably shouldn't dismiss him being the only BIG on the floor. Another way to add more minutes to Grant and Romeo's load is to be careful/curb TL and Al's minutes they play w/each other.

benhogan said:

The young guys (GW, RL, PP, AN) are much better complimentary players this season. So they can and should be relied upon. Brad did a good job moving out the chaff (Edwards, Tre, Tacko, Kornet, Semi).
Grant and Romeo were next to useless last year (due to weight/injuries) but credit PBS for recognizing they had value/upside. PP looks to be shaking off the broken nose and there is a shooter in Nesmith that needs to be developed/brought out.

The win/loss expectancy for this .500 team probably won't change much if you up Grant/Romeo/PP/AN minutes while moving DS for future assets. They should also consider selling high on JRich if there is demand around the league (don't see him continuing to shoot 40% from 3).

back to last night's game: I've been a Rob Williams critic recently but TL had one of his best games this season.
Mostly due to not having to face Allen/Mobley BUT we probably shouldn't dismiss him being the only BIG on the floor. Another way to add more minutes to Grant and Romeo's load is to be careful/curb TL and Al's minutes they play w/each other.

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TL certainly does a lot better against second units as he showed last night.

I don't know exactly what will happen with the roster but I guess it will depend on where the Cs are in mid- to late-January. The Cs are currently 10th in defensive rating at 108.1. There is no physical reason why they shouldn't be a top-5 defense, which would improve NRtg on its own and probably improve the ORtg based on TOs and transition buckets.

Forsberg's stats last night about JB's and JT's increased passing were interesting. I think this team is still getting used to how Ime wants them to play. How much better it will make them is anyone's guess but I just don't see .500 as the ceiling for this team if it can stay healthy. Maybe that's because I have green-tinted glasses on.

Perhaps I am wildly optimistic however to me it seems the key to success in this regular season, which in my view is a greater than .500 record and an invite to the postseason, is the continuous health of the Jays. PBS can shuffle the deck chairs (non-Jays) however he likes. Brooklyn, Milwaukee and Miami would be tough post season match ups however if this Celtics team gets rolling they have a puncher's chance against any of them.

bigq said:

Perhaps I am wildly optimistic however to me it seems the key to success in this regular season, which in my view is a greater than .500 record and an invite to the postseason, is the continuous health of the Jays. PBS can shuffle the deck chairs (non-Jays) however he likes. Brooklyn, Milwaukee and Miami would be tough post season match ups however if this Celtics team gets rolling they have a puncher's chance against any of them.

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Agreed and the idea of auctioning off proven NBA talent for picks that most people agree aren't going to be all that valuable seems really shortsighted. It is undeniable that they are a .500 team. It strikes me that the best way to continue that trend is to shed talent from the team rather than adding to it.

Let's not overstate the performances of the younger players like Pritchard, Langford and Nesmith. They are each looking better in spots but they are nowhere near consistent enough for the Celtics to move on from veterans and assume that the production won't suffer.

Given the inconsistency of most of the team, the C's should not be shedding talent unless it gets them a clear current roster upgrade. The day this team has multiple players being blocked down the roster may yet happen but its really difficult to make that case at present.

bigq said:

Perhaps I am wildly optimistic however to me it seems the key to success in this regular season, which in my view is a greater than .500 record and an invite to the postseason, is the continuous health of the Jays. PBS can shuffle the deck chairs (non-Jays) however he likes. Brooklyn, Milwaukee and Miami would be tough post season match ups however if this Celtics team gets rolling they have a puncher's chance against any of them.

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I don't see PBS as a deck shuffler. I see Brad as very capable of recognizing ascending/descending/usable talent. I gave him an "A" for his first season of moves this summer. I'd like to see him continue to deal since his hit/miss ratio is a massive net positive. Dealing Schroder or even JRich, as suggested, would mean an influx of talent, not a subtraction mostly based on Trader Brad's skills. Adding a draft pick would probably be packaged in a larger deal since this team owns all their own draft picks and has plenty of developing young players overseas/G-League + PP/AN. Brad clearly recognizes the need of having a balanced roster.

This team's underperformance this season is due mostly to Tatum's inefficiency & Jaylen's unavailability. If Top 10 Tatum returns and Jaylen gets healthier this team does have a "puncher"s chance" to make the EC Finals, but that feels like their ultimate upside. YMMV

benhogan said:

I don't see PBS as a deck shuffler. I see Brad as very capable of recognizing ascending/descending/usable talent. I gave him an "A" for his first season of moves this summer. I'd like to see him continue to deal since his hit/miss ratio is a massive net positive. Dealing Schroder or even JRich, as suggested, would mean an influx of talent, not a subtraction mostly based on Trader Brad's skills. Adding a draft pick would probably be packaged in a larger deal since this team owns all their own draft picks and has plenty of developing young players overseas/G-League + PP/AN. Brad clearly recognizes the need of having a balanced roster.

This team's underperformance this season is due mostly to Tatum's inefficiency & Jaylen's unavailability. If Top 10 Tatum returns and Jaylen gets healthier this team does have a "puncher"s chance" to make the EC Finals, but that feels like their ultimate upside. YMMV

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Yeah deck shuffler was not the correct term. I agree with you that PBS is off to a good start and I liked his moves in the off season (especially getting rid of Kemba and bringing back Al). My point was the rest of the roster is secondary and the Celtics will go as the Jays go. Perhaps my view is overly myopic however there are very few changes to the roster short of bringing in a top 20 or so talent (which seems nearly impossible) that will change that. Brad is a smart dude though and maybe he has something up his sleeve. Whatever he does I trust that he knows what he is doing.

bigq said:

Yeah deck shuffler was not the correct term. I agree with you that PBS is off to a good start and I liked his moves in the off season (especially getting rid of Kemba and bringing back Al). My point was the rest of the roster is secondary and the Celtics will go as the Jays go. Perhaps my view is overly myopic however there are very few changes to the roster short of bringing in a top 20 or so talent (which seems nearly impossible) that will change that. Brad is a smart dude though and maybe he has something up his sleeve. Whatever he does I trust that he knows what he is doing.

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Maybe we'll get lucky with Begarin or someone we haven't drafted yet.

I still say in a 2 star system, Brown isn't a good enough 2nd star unless your first is a perennial MVP candidate. In a 3 star system, he's fine.

benhogan said:

This team's underperformance this season is due mostly to Tatum's inefficiency & Jaylen's unavailability. If Top 10 Tatum returns and Jaylen gets healthier this team does have a "puncher"s chance" to make the EC Finals, but that feels like their ultimate upside. YMMV

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Agree that if JT is top 10 and JB is top 25 then they don't have a shot at winning it all. But the entire point of the offseason was to be able to marshal assets if a third star becomes available.
The best way to maximize the value of the Cs assets is to win.

Cesar Crespo said:

Maybe we'll get lucky with Begarin or someone we haven't drafted yet.

I still say in a 2 star system, Brown isn't a good enough 2nd star unless your first is a perennial MVP candidate. In a 3 star system, he's fine.

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:

Agree that if JT is top 10 and JB is top 25 then they don't have a shot at winning it all. But the entire point of the offseason was to be able to marshal assets if a third star becomes available.
The best way to maximize the value of the Cs assets is to win.

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These posts put it pretty well.

Even if JT were a top 10 player (which he isn't currently), JB as your #2 isn't enough. I think that ownership and player personnel has always known that, which is why they've tried a combination of free agent signings and a mix of home run swings/rotation swings in the draft, and tried to turn those FA signings into TPEs when they left. A JB and JT plus filler team isn't the plan and never was.

Unfortunately the team treading water for two years looks bad (and is bad), but I can't imagine that Brad is done.

If JT were a top-3 player, maybe this is a different conversation (see: Warriors, Golden State). But there is 0% chance of that happening.

benhogan said:

The win/loss expectancy for this .500 team probably won't change much if you up Grant/Romeo/PP/AN minutes while moving DS for future assets. They should also consider selling high on JRich if there is demand around the league (don't see him continuing to shoot 40% from 3).

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JRich I'd hold onto, because they have him for next year, and he's proven himself to be a very useful rotation player. Of course, if there was an overpay to be had - but I doubt that'd be the case. If after DS is moved, we see Romeo/PP/AN outplaying JR the rest of this season - you trade JRich in the offseason.

Jimbodandy said:

If JT were a top-3 player, maybe this is a different conversation (see: Warriors, Golden State). But there is 0% chance of that happening.

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0%? In the next four years? I mean it's unlikely but it's possible. For example, JT is currently shooting 67/191 or 35% on open or wide-open 3Ps (closest defender within 4 feet). If he started making 1/2 of just those shots, which is not out of the realm of possibility IMO, he would have about 28 more 3Ps, which is almost 3 pts more a game. It would also bring his overall 3P% up to 43%. A JT who is averaging 28 ppg on 43% 3P shooting is looked at much differently I think (and the Cs would have a few more wins). Is it likely? Maybe not. But it's certainly possible IMO.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

0%? In the next four years? I mean it's unlikely but it's possible. For example, JT is currently shooting 67/191 or 35% on open or wide-open 3Ps (closest defender within 4 feet). If he started making 1/2 of just those shots, which is not out of the realm of possibility IMO, he would have about 28 more 3Ps, which is almost 3 pts more a game. It would also bring his overall 3P% up to 43%. A JT who is averaging 28 ppg on 43% 3P shooting is looked at much differently I think (and the Cs would have a few more wins). Is it likely? Maybe not. But it's certainly possible IMO.

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I love JT. I just can't imagine him being that guy (or one of those 3 guys).

Maybe 0% is unwise, but we're talking very low single digits here.

Jayson Tatum may not be having a good season but between his production to date as well as his physical profile, I doubt we are seeing his ceiling or even sniffing it at age 23.
The other thing to factor in is that absent Brown, the C's have rarely had another player for opposing teams to worry about. If Jaylen is out or ineffective, teams can simply focus on throwing everything at Tatum. If Schroder or Horford or one of the Williamseseseses or especially Smart beats them, I suspect they live with that outcome. Its also why the C's may want to hang on to rotation pieces absent a deal for another star. If we and opposing defenses know where the ball is going in clutch situations, the C's probably need to find additional outlets instead of getting rid of them.

I've mentioned it and others have too, but here are the small trends. These are only numbers with no opinions attached so make of them what you will.

Schroder's first 26 games, 33.4 mpg, .445/.342/.894, 17.5 points, 4.9 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 2.6 TO
Last 3 games: 22.9 mpg, .194/.125/.833, 6.0 points, 2.3 assists, 2.0 rebounds, 1.3 TO

Pritchard's first 18 games, : 8.8 mpg, .213/.333/1.000, 1.7 points, 1.1 assists, 1.1 rebounds, 0.7 TO
Pritchard's last 8 games: 16.0 mpg, .471/.441/1.000, 8.1 points, 2.5 assists, 2.1 rebounds, 0.6 TO
Pritchard's last 3 games: 23.6 mpg, .577/.467/---, 10.1 points, 2.0 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.3 TO (included in 8 game sample above)

Only 2 of PP's last 3 games overlap with DS's last 3. In those 2, DS played a total of 44 minutes and PP played 43.


Actual opinion: Find out what we really have with the young guys by moving DS. I'm not sure the team would be materially worse off for the rest of the season either. Is PP's recent performance due to the Covid depleted rosters? Let's find out. How good of a 3 point shooter is RL? Let's find out. Can AN slow down? Can Grant keep it up with a bump in minutes? Let's see how TL does as a point 5.

I hope this is the direction the team really is going in. It should be a young team competing for a playoff spot, developing its young players and moving on from players that aren't in its future plans.

Cesar Crespo said:

Schroder's first 26 games, 33.4 mpg, .445/.342/.894, 17.5 points, 4.9 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 2.6 TO
Last 3 games: 22.9 mpg, .194/.125/.833, 6.0 points, 2.3 assists, 2.0 rebounds, 1.3 TO

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He is returning from an illness that caused him to miss a couple of games. I don’t know why we’d view his last three games as more representative than his first twenty-six or use them to inform roster decisions in the midst of a pandemic that has Brad Steven signing Joe Johnson, Justin Jackson, C.J. Miles, Al-Farouq Aminu, and Norvel Pelle of late.

pjheff said:

He is returning from an illness that caused him to miss a couple of games. I don’t know why we’d view his last three games as more representative than his first twenty-six or use them to inform roster decisions in the midst of a pandemic that has Brad Steven signing Joe Johnson, Justin Jackson, C.J. Miles, Al-Farouq Aminu, and Norvel Pelle of late.

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I was mostly focusing on the minutes, rather than his performance. Whether he starts getting less minutes going forward is anyone's guess but PP has been getting more minutes of late too. Some/all of this could be due to depleted rosters, but if that were the case, you'd think DS would be playing more and not less. Again, they are just numbers.

DS is a career .435/.336/.834 shooter. This year, he's at .425/.328/.890. Pretty much the player he always is.

The opinion part is more about the performance and value of the young players than DS. That said, I don't see DS moving the needle any. I don't think he really has a use on this team when its actually healthy. Use his minutes to develop the value of young players. Or at least some of them. I don't think he needs to be playing 32-33 minutes a game. I also don't think he's a particularly good fit on the team.

Cesar Crespo said:

I was mostly focusing on the minutes, rather than his performance. Whether he starts getting less minutes going forward is anyone's guess but PP has been getting more minutes of late too. Some/all of this could be due to depleted rosters, but if that were the case, you'd think DS would be playing more and not less. Again, they are just numbers.

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I’d think that Schroeder’s minutes in the last three games might have something to do with his limited effectiveness as he bounces back from illness and missed time.

Cesar Crespo said:

DS is a career .435/.336/.834 shooter. This year, he's at .425/.328/.890. Pretty much the player he always is.

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Yes, the player he always is would be somewhere between the third and sixth best NBA player on the roster.

Cesar Crespo said:

The opinion part is more about the performance and value of the young players than DS. That said, I don't see DS moving the needle any. I don't think he really has a use on this team when its actually healthy. Use his minutes to develop the value of young players. Or at least some of them. I don't think he needs to be playing 32-33 minutes a game. I also don't think he's a particularly good fit on the team.

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I don’t have a problem moving him for value, given his contract status. But I don’t think he’s the variable holding back the development of young players and wouldn’t simply discard him when we are one Marcus Smart yearly thumb injury and one Payton Pritchard COVID diagnosis away from coaxing Sherman Douglas out of retirement to run the point.

pjheff said:

I don’t have a problem moving him for value, given his contract status. But I don’t think he’s the variable holding back the development of young players and wouldn’t simply discard him when we are one Marcus Smart yearly thumb injury and one Payton Pritchard COVID diagnosis away from coaxing Sherman Douglas out of retirement to run the point.

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I thought we all agreed that the Cs need more good NBA players, not fewer.

That being said, if DOPOBS can move DS - or virtually anyone else on the team other than JT and JB for players who can fit better, I'm sure he'll do it. Moving DS for value is fine. Just getting rid of him is not the answer IMO.

Ok, there is a not so small part of me that wants one Cs game this season to feature a Douglas, Johnson, Miles, Aminu, Pelle line-up (AKA "The Big 5").

Also, apparently Brad Stevens collects porcelain dolls too.

Justin Jackson and CJ Miles already in protocols.

Also out tomorrow: Richardson, Grant Williams, Nesmith, Freedom, Fernando.

Horford, Romeo and Jabari are questionable.

Only Buck who's definitely out is Brook Lopez.

JFC.

https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/referee/injury/Injury-Report_2021-12-24_05PM.pdf

pjheff said:

I don’t have a problem moving him for value, given his contract status. But I don’t think he’s the variable holding back the development of young players and wouldn’t simply discard him when we are one Marcus Smart yearly thumb injury and one Payton Pritchard COVID diagnosis away from coaxing Sherman Douglas out of retirement to run the point.

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Madar Time. Not even sure if he's a possibility this year.

Cesar Crespo said:

Madar Time. Not even sure if he's a possibility this year.

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I don’t believe that it is, and he’s certainly not ready.

I really dislike DS's game and would love to see Brad get something of value for him, but I have to agree that shedding NBA players at this point is probably not good business.

I'm not THAT worried about JB and JT having to bring the ball over half court for a couple of games, but we could be looking at depleted rosters for another month. Kids are likely to see plenty of minutes even with DS here.

Jimbodandy said:

I really dislike DS's game and would love to see Brad get something of value for him, but I have to agree that shedding NBA players at this point is probably not good business.

I'm not THAT worried about JB and JT having to bring the ball over half court for a couple of games, but we could be looking at depleted rosters for another month. Kids are likely to see plenty of minutes even with DS here.

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Yeah, you don't do it right now. You wait until the roster is back at full strength. It's still something that should be done at some point.