Shams: Celtics "engaged in conversations" with 76ers for Ben Simmons

PedroKsBambino

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A couple of solid pieces probably sacrifices a year of Embiid too. Maybe longer if it complicates future moves.

If a return like that doesn't put Philly over the top, might as well wait. A deal like that will still be there when all other avenues are exhausted.
I tend to agree; that said, it would not be insane to ask that question either, as the team is playing very well now and adding parts in a somewhat unclear overall NBA landscape is a viable approach, too. Put a different way, why assume that adding the right couple supporting pieces wouldn't put Philly over the top? Not every team is a superteam, though as we've often discussed in this forum most teams have two stars.
 

lovegtm

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At this point, I'd be interested in a full rebuild on the lines of:
- Brown for Simmons+
- Smart for assets
- talk trade for everyone else opportunistically
- 3.5 years of Tatum+Simmons under contract to build something

Jaylen trade talk is going to start next season anyway if things keep going like this.
 

Jimbodandy

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Brown's stock has tanked if all he can get for you is a guy who doesn't play. And if he does play, he doesn't shoot.

Yes, what the team needs is a guy with the heart of a field mouse.
 
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lovegtm

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Brown's stock has tanked if all he can get for you is a guy who doesn't play. And if he doesn't play, he doesn't shoot.

Yes, what the team needs is a guy with the heart of a field mouse.
I'm sure there are other options in exchange for Brown, although I'd have to hear them to evaluate.

My point is more that the time remaining on Jaylen's contract is going to start forcing decisions very, very soon, regardless of your evaluation of Jaylen (I think he's good, and so does a lot of the league).
 

bsj

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I know we all hate Simmons but a big PG who passes first and doesnt take shots isnt the worst fit for this team

This is probably just despondency at the current situation talking.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Brown's stock has tanked if all he can get for you is a guy who doesn't play. And if he doesn't play, he doesn't shoot.

Yes, what the team needs is a guy with the heart of a field mouse.
But, on the other hand, if people want someone who will pass rather than shoot it every time down the floor in crunch time, Simmons is the guy!
 

Cesar Crespo

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I know we all hate Simmons but a big PG who passes first and doesnt take shots isnt the worst fit for this team

This is probably just despondency at the current situation talking.
If you think the team needs a 3rd scorer, trading the 2nd scorer for a non scorer seems problematic.

I'd think about it, but we aren't getting Simmons+ for Brown.
 

Devizier

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Simmons for Brown only happens straight up (excluding filler like Juancho or the like). Whether this is a good move depends entirely on the Celtics’ ability to grab another scorer. They’ve whiffed so far on that front so I’m not optimistic.
 

benhogan

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I'm sure there are other options in exchange for Brown, although I'd have to hear them to evaluate.

My point is more that the time remaining on Jaylen's contract is going to start forcing decisions very, very soon, regardless of your evaluation of Jaylen (I think he's good, and so does a lot of the league).
The Jaylen trades kicked around here (maybe there should be a Nuclear Option thread) earlier this season were:
1. Murray/Keldon Johnson (SA probably laughs that off now)
2. Haliburton/Barnes
3. Simmons+
4. Collins/Reddish - maybe the Hawks want to bring home Jaylen and they feel the pinch of an underperforming season

I don't see any of these deals as trading a dollar (Brown) for quarters, which is always the reaction when Jaylen fake trades come up
 

lexrageorge

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Simmons as a replacement for Smart would make both J's very much more betterer. But that's probably not happening.

Simmons and Tatum as the foundation for the future? The problem is that the team would then need shooters, the exact type of player that they've struggled to acquire recently.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The Jaylen trades kicked around here (maybe there should be a Nuclear Option thread) earlier this season were:
1. Murray/Keldon Johnson (SA probably laughs that off now)
2. Haliburton/Barnes
3. Simmons+
4. Collins/Reddish - maybe the Hawks want to bring home Jaylen and they feel the pinch of an underperforming season
Yeah, the Hawks aren't trading Reddish. Have you looked at Reddish's play lately? He's almost up to .400 3 point shooting, never mind the rest.

Haliburton isn't going anywhere either, if anyone does, it's Fox.
 

128

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I know we all hate Simmons but a big PG who passes first and doesnt take shots isnt the worst fit for this team

This is probably just despondency at the current situation talking.
My bigger concern would be Simmons' competitive spirit, or lack thereof.
 

benhogan

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Yeah, the Hawks aren't trading Reddish. Have you looked at Reddish's play lately? He's almost up to .400 3 point shooting, never mind the rest.

Haliburton isn't going anywhere either, if anyone does, it's Fox.
Salaries don't quite match, particularly after Huerter signed his extension...and Collins can't be traded until his six-month period is up anyway. But we might be in the ballpark here. As an alternative, what about Collins/Reddish?
all those guys that people called "spare change" are playing better
 

Cesar Crespo

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They both coast defensively, is that a sign of a competitive player?

I'd argue good defensive players are competitive by default.
 

128

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Do you think Brown and Tatum are competitive?
Yes, I do, and I believe both work hard as hell on their games and want to get better.

I think it's fair to wonder how much basketball really means to Simmons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yes, I do, and I believe both work hard as hell on their games and want to get better.
You think they both work hard as hell on the defensive end and work on that part of their game?

How competitive can one be if they don't play defense?
 

benhogan

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If Boston really thinks they can get Beal, how does Tatum/Simmons/Beal compare to Tatum/Brown/Beal?
Simmons is polarizing around here.

Either he's a 3-time All-Star that got run out of Philly by Embiid/Doc

OR

he's the Coward of Oz that can't shoot & has zero interest in hooping/working on his game

I like him and he'd be a better fit playing w/Beal + Tatum. In order for the C's to get Beal they'd probably need to deal Smart/TL +++
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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You think they both work hard as hell on the defensive end and work on that part of their game?

How competitive can one be if they don't play defense?
Both JT and JB show flashes of great defense. They both talk about wanting to be great defenders. None of us know how hard they work on defense because defensive drills don't usually get posted to social media.
 

Jimbodandy

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You think they both work hard as hell on the defensive end and work on that part of their game?

How competitive can one be if they don't play defense?
Your point that those guys aren't competitive enough is valid. Comparing them to a guy who hasn't materially improved since he was 18 years old isn't. Simmons is the textbook example of a guy who doesn't work on his game. If he did, he'd be better at something. Night and day difference.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It's easier to trade for Simmons if Beal comes along.

Without Beal, trading Brown for Simmons would require a lot of other moves. It really is "blowing it up." The C's also haven't had the best luck with shooters so I'm not 100% convinced they'd surround Simmons and Tatum with shooters.

They'd also need a 2nd scorer... so that's why Beal makes it a lot easier. But with Simmons/Tatum, the team could possibly carry a 6'1 SG who only scores.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Both JT and JB show flashes of great defense. They both talk about wanting to be great defenders. None of us know how hard they work on defense because defensive drills don't usually get posted to social media.
Right. Do you think Ben Simmons is just a natural and doesn't have to do defensive drills?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Your point that those guys aren't competitive enough is valid. Comparing them to a guy who hasn't materially improved since he was 18 years old isn't. Simmons is the textbook example of a guy who doesn't work on his game. If he did, he'd be better at something. Night and day difference.
Yeah, I'm sure Ben Simmons sits around eating cheese burgers during the summer and is just a naturally gifted player who doesn't work on his game at all.

He doesn't have to worry about losing gains like the rest of us.
 

Jimbodandy

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The first is better defensively and far more balanced. The 2nd might be an "only 1 ball" scenario.
I don't really believe in the one ball thing. But if we bring in Beal with Brown, we might ultimately have a problen defensively. Beal is all of the defensive inadequacy of the other two with less size. Simmons gives us an edge defensively there.

I'm all for Simmons for Smart plus, if it were possible, partly because it makes adding a guy like Beal workable.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah, I'm sure Ben Simmons sits around eating cheese burgers during the summer and is just a naturally gifted player who doesn't work on his game at all.

He doesn't have to worry about losing gains like the rest of us.
He stays in shape. Woohoo. That's the case for Ben Simmons...hey at least he doesn't get fat on the offseason.

He's a good NBA player as is, and I'm ok moving for him. But you're comparing him to guys who have taken multiple leaps.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don't really believe in the one ball thing. But if we bring in Beal with Brown, we might ultimately have a problen defensively. Beal is all of the defensive inadequacy of the other two with less size. Simmons gives us an edge defensively there.

I'm all for Simmons for Smart plus, if it were possible, partly because it makes adding a guy like Beal workable.
Why though? I heavily prefer Tatum/Brown/Simmons over Tatum/Beal/Simmons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He stays in shape. Woohoo. That's the case for Ben Simmons...hey at least he doesn't get fat on the offseason.

He's a good NBA player as is, and I'm ok moving for him. But you're comparing him to guys who have taken multiple leaps.
He was also far better than those 2 players his "first year" which was actually his 2nd. And there are plenty of off season videos of Ben Simmons. He's working on his game. The problem with him is he is reluctant to shoot in games.

And even without the multiple leaps, he's still in the same tier as Jaylen Brown.
 

Jimbodandy

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Why though? I heavily prefer Tatum/Brown/Simmons over Tatum/Beal/Simmons.
Oh me too. I meant that Tatum/Brown/Beal might be a problem. If we're bringing in Beal, Simmons for Brown at least helps defensively.

Tatum/Brown/Simmons would be fantastic. I'd drive Smart, TL, and a couple of first to the airport.
 

Deathofthebambino

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IMO, any trade that involves Brown leaving and Beal coming is rearranging the deck chairs. I also don't see a ton of value in replacing Smart/TL for Simmons (or whatever other combination of Smart/someone you need to do the deal).

But if folks want to make moves just to make changes, I can't even argue with that at this point. I'd prefer that Ime start doing stuff in game that's different from what he's been doing and see what happens. At least for the next month.
 

Jimbodandy

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He was also far better than those 2 players his "first year" which was actually his 2nd. And there are plenty of off season videos of Ben Simmons. He's working on his game. The problem with him is he is reluctant to shoot in games.

And even without the multiple leaps, he's still in the same tier as Jaylen Brown.
We agree that he's a good player.

He just hasn't improved at all. People keep implying that he has, but he hasn't. It's weird. And it tells me that the guy doesn't give a fuck. Or maybe it's all mental, and I'm being judgy. But guys who do improve substantially, it's kind of insulting comparing them to an outlier like Ben.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Beal fell off of a cliff this year. Shooting under .300 from 3. Lost 8 points off of his scoring average. If you are mad at what Tatum is doing this year, Beal is going to make your head explode.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Beal fell off of a cliff this year. Shooting under .300 from 3. Lost 8 points off of his scoring average. If you are mad at what Tatum is doing this year, Beal is going to make your head explode.
Any 3rd star the C's acquire is going to be flawed. Whether it's Beal, Simmons, Fox. Dame.

I'd prefer one closer to the same age as the Jays, and not a smaller guy close to or over 30.
 

benhogan

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IMO, any trade that involves Brown leaving and Beal coming is rearranging the deck chairs. I also don't see a ton of value in replacing Smart/TL for Simmons (or whatever other combination of Smart/someone you need to do the deal).

But if folks want to make moves just to make changes, I can't even argue with that at this point. I'd prefer that Ime start doing stuff in game that's different from what he's been doing and see what happens. At least for the next month.
agreed

1. stop the 2BIGZ, split 5 minutes between TL/Horford, start Grant
2. roll with the JAYs
3. send Tatum to the Lou for the next week to go work w/ Hanlen on his 3pt shot
4. deal DS for an asset
5. get a young/blocked PG
6. deal Juancho, get under the cap
 

Cesar Crespo

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IMO, any trade that involves Brown leaving and Beal coming is rearranging the deck chairs. I also don't see a ton of value in replacing Smart/TL for Simmons (or whatever other combination of Smart/someone you need to do the deal).

But if folks want to make moves just to make changes, I can't even argue with that at this point. I'd prefer that Ime start doing stuff in game that's different from what he's been doing and see what happens. At least for the next month.
Moving Brown for Beal is a bad move.

Adding Simmons to the Jays by trading Smart and TL? That's upgrading the entire boat. You really wouldn't make that move? You must love Marcus. Or do you mean in combination with Beal for Brown?
 

Deathofthebambino

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Moving Brown for Beal is a bad move.

Adding Simmons to the Jays by trading Smart and TL? That's upgrading the entire boat. You really wouldn't make that move? You must love Marcus. Or do you mean in combination with Beal for Brown?
I was more responding to folks who were talking about ending up with Tatum/Beal/Simmons, and losing Brown/Smart/TL in the process. I just don't see how Tatum/Beal/Simmons moves the needle much from Tatum/Brown/Smart/TL.

And no, I'm not a Marcus guy. But I am a huge TL fan, and think as long as he stays healthy, he's a top 5 Center in the league. You remove him from this team, and our defense will literally fall apart, before or after Al completely breaks down when Ime plays him 4,000 minutes.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Right. Do you think Ben Simmons is just a natural and doesn't have to do defensive drills?
Are you asking whether Ben Simmons dedicates a disproportionate amount of his off-season or in-season workouts to defense?

If that's the question, then no, I don't see any evidence that Ben does. Ben was able to guard guys from Trae Young to Al Horford from the moment he came into the league because he's almost 7 feet tall but is able to move like a guard.

I mean Ben may work on his footwork, his lateral movements, and his explosiveness but IMO, his ability to guard people comes from his innate physical gifts, not from any competitive drive to shut people down.
 

BigSoxFan

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Wow, this thread’s activity got my heart rate going. Simmons’ skill set intrigues me but his mentality may be a horrible fit for a team that tends to sleepwalk far too often.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Are you asking whether Ben Simmons dedicates a disproportionate amount of his off-season or in-season workouts to defense?

If that's the question, then no, I don't see any evidence that Ben does. Ben was able to guard guys from Trae Young to Al Horford from the moment he came into the league because he's almost 7 feet tall but is able to move like a guard.

I mean Ben may work on his footwork, his lateral movements, and his explosiveness but IMO, his ability to guard people comes from his innate physical gifts, not from any competitive drive to shut people down.
I just meant in a general sense, do you think Ben Simmons works on his game or do you think he's just a naturally gifted basketball player who doesn't need to practice? I'm guessing all these players work on their games, whether they show material improvement on the court or not is another matter. Smart was working on his 3 for quite awhile until he started hitting them at an acceptable rate (only to regress back, ugh).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Brown's stock has tanked if all he can get for you is a guy who doesn't play. And if he does play, he doesn't shoot.

Yes, what the team needs is a guy with the heart of a field mouse.
As much of a Jaylen guy as I was I have never had his value to the level of Simmons. Frankly, few players in the league have. Question…..how does a player avg close to 20 ppg without shooting the basketball? Scorekeeper friend, osmosis, efficiency? How does this work? ;)
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Wow, this thread’s activity got my heart rate going. Simmons’ skill set intrigues me but his mentality may be a horrible fit for a team that tends to sleepwalk far too often.
lovegtm knows how to get the crowd going!

Given the C's results as well as cap situation, it wouldn't be a surprise if they looked at a Simmons deal because presumably he can be had for a "fair price" and he offers the prospect of a talent upgrade. Given the C's results as well as their cap situation, I think the odds of a Simmons-to-Boston trade are fairly low. The risk/reward for Simmons individually as well as for the C's just doesn't seem appealing. Simmons best shot at rehabilitating his career is probably not in a place like Boston and with this team in particular (though he would look great next to Tatum and Brown).
 

BigSoxFan

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lovegtm knows how to get the crowd going!

Given the C's results as well as cap situation, it wouldn't be a surprise if they looked at a Simmons deal because presumably he can be had for a "fair price" and he offers the prospect of a talent upgrade. Given the C's results as well as their cap situation, I think the odds of a Simmons-to-Boston trade are fairly low. The risk/reward for Simmons individually as well as for the C's just doesn't seem appealing. Simmons best shot at rehabilitating his career is probably not in a place like Boston and with this team in particular (though he would look great next to Tatum and Brown).
Agreed. I remain intrigued at Simmons joining the Jay’s but that ain’t happening so a Brown for Simmons+ deal is just too risky, even for someone like me who is farther along on the “blow it up” spectrum than most.
 

Jimbodandy

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As much of a Jaylen guy as I was I have never had his value to the level of Simmons. Frankly, few players in the league have. Question…..how does a player avg close to 20 ppg without shooting the basketball? Scorekeeper friend, osmosis, efficiency? How does this work? ;)
Well 15.9, with a high of 16.9.

And layups and free throws.

Which we have seen aren't plentiful in the playoffs, hence his dwindling scoring averages of 16.3, 13.9, and 11.9 in 3 playoff years, with a robust 9.9 against Atlanta.

I think that the change would do him good, and not having a lane clogging big probably gives him more looks at the rim even in the playoffs. But I mean...guy attempted 7.9 shots in last year's playoffs in 33.5 MPG. That's more or less a non shooter, isn't it?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Well 15.9, with a high of 16.9.

And layups and free throws.

Which we have seen aren't plentiful in the playoffs, hence his dwindling scoring averages of 16.3, 13.9, and 11.9 in 3 playoff years, with a robust 9.9 against Atlanta.

I think that the change would do him good, and not having a lane clogging big probably gives him more looks at the rim even in the playoffs. But I mean...guy attempted 7.9 shots in last year's playoffs in 33.5 MPG. That's more or less a non shooter, isn't it?
Sure but I don’t know why you’d want to overweigh a single game or a single playoff series when we have a full body of work to see for a player who was just 24 at the time.

You know who else are non-shooters?

The guy he’s defending.