2022 NFL Draft Game Thread-Day 2

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
If Bill found out Pitt was gonna take them and took him, I’m good with that. Hopefully he’s taping their war room.
We just lost a 3rd round pick from this joke.

Skyy Moore looks like a ten year pro. Thornton looks like he’ll run real fast, miss his routes and get over powered by bump and run coverage.
I agree. From 30 seconds each of game tape, I can conclude that Moore is a better receiver.
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,827
Needham, MA
The fans at this thing are . . . Something I guess. You are in Vegas and this is the most exciting thing you can think of doing? Painting your face and waiting to hear about the dude your team drafted who you probably have never heard of?
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
the guy’s a legend - the track record is absurd

but is he the best gm NOW for this team?
Do you have proof of his dementia, or are you just throwing this out there?

In Bill We Trust means he's forgotten more about team building/assembly than most of us will ever sniff at. Ergo, it's a bit presumptuous to even speak the "he's out of his element NOW for the team" words out loud regarding BB considering the context of a) his track record, b) his being ahead of the curve and spending buckets of money last year on cheap or not attainable due to competition quality FA players when no one else had it and he could almost corner the market, c) we all understand the concept of moneyball and finding assets under rocks that others overlook/dismiss, d) the quality of players in his most recent draft.

Critiquing him is fair game, always - questioning his fitness as GM given the above seems more than game thready.... At least, *I* wouldn't be comfortable doing so. YMMV.
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
4,461
Worcester
I’m not implying he should be canned - even if he should, it’s not politically palatable for Kraft to do it. He’s earned the right to make the picks…but I DO worry that he’s not making the right picks overall for the last ten years

I do think having Brady made gm a very very different job
He totally whiffed on Jones, Dugger, Barmore, Harris, Stevenson, etc...
 

OnWisc

Microcosmic
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2006
6,844
Chicago, IL
The fans at this thing are . . . Something I guess. You are in Vegas and this is the most exciting thing you can think of doing? Painting your face and waiting to hear about the dude your team drafted who you probably have never heard of?
One of my favorite things after the first dozen or so picks is the reaction of the fans who clearly have no idea who the guy is that their team just picked.
 

Section15Box113

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2005
8,914
Inside Lou Gorman's Head
PFN on Thornton:

"Speed is a defining part of Thornton’s game, but even for some who watched him, it was surprising to see him run in the 4.2 range. It’s rare for receivers of Thornton’s size to run at that speed. But as it turns out, Thornton is a rare player. There are some limitations with the Baylor WR, but there’s also a lot of upside — which naturally drums up excitement."

(Ok, that sounds promising...)

"At 6’2 3/8″, Thornton is a long-strider with blazing speed in space. He accelerates incredibly quickly and covers lots of ground down the field. With an explosive first step out of his stance, he gets upfield and pressures DBs vertically. His long strides open up his explosiveness, and with that burst, he quickly gets a step on his defenders. Thornton’s speed also shows up after the catch. He can take passes in the short range and explode through seams with his fast, efficient strides."

(Taking the top off? Check.)

"Beyond his elite linear explosiveness and speed, Thornton is also a twitchy mover who can get defensive backs to jump and over-set with sudden moves at the line. The Baylor WR is able to plant and explode off stems, creating quick separation with his short-area burst. That twitch also enables him to sidestep single defenders after the catch."

(Creating separation? Check. No N'keal here?)

"Thornton’s speed is most definitely one of his top traits, but he’s a good player beyond that. With his twitch, Thornton has a solid release arsenal. He can use a roll step to get displacement and peel by DBs. He also has a brutal jab step, which he uses to explode upfield and instantly create space. Moreover, Thornton can use hand swipes to prevent DBs from jamming, and he also uses physicality at the stem to compound separation."

(Good releases? Like to hear.)

"Thornton has great concentration and focus at the catch point, and he can look the ball in through congestion. The Baylor WR is able to guide and pluck the ball with his hands and haul in passes amidst contact."

(Hands.)

"Thornton is a great receiver, but he’s just as strong as a blocker. He’s physical in that phase, surging into contact and giving maximum effort. He has combative hands but also knows when to extend and drive players back. Thornton can stack blocks and uses good angle awareness and leverage in space."

(Rail thin, but willing to block - and good at it?)

Ok. I want to learn more.
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
20,232
Do you have proof of his dementia, or are you just throwing this out there?

In Bill We Trust means he's forgotten more about team building/assembly than most of us will ever sniff at. Ergo, it's a bit presumptuous to even speak the "he's out of his element NOW for the team" words out loud regarding BB considering the context of a) his track record, b) his being ahead of the curve and spending buckets of money last year on cheap or not attainable due to competition quality FA players when no one else had it and he could almost corner the market, c) we all understand the concept of moneyball and finding assets under rocks that others overlook/dismiss, d) the quality of players in his most recent draft.

Critiquing him is fair game, always - questioning his fitness as GM given the above seems more than game thready.... At least, *I* wouldn't be comfortable doing so. YMMV.
This is a horseshit argument. I never said anything about dementia. Most people in all fields decline in their 70s. It’s absurd to think BB can be a “genius” in perpetuity. Or, for that matter, to argue that he’s not prone to favoritism with respect to his son
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,376
PFN on Thornton:

"Speed is a defining part of Thornton’s game, but even for some who watched him, it was surprising to see him run in the 4.2 range. It’s rare for receivers of Thornton’s size to run at that speed. But as it turns out, Thornton is a rare player. There are some limitations with the Baylor WR, but there’s also a lot of upside — which naturally drums up excitement."

(Ok, that sounds promising...)

"At 6’2 3/8″, Thornton is a long-strider with blazing speed in space. He accelerates incredibly quickly and covers lots of ground down the field. With an explosive first step out of his stance, he gets upfield and pressures DBs vertically. His long strides open up his explosiveness, and with that burst, he quickly gets a step on his defenders. Thornton’s speed also shows up after the catch. He can take passes in the short range and explode through seams with his fast, efficient strides."

(Taking the top off? Check.)

"Beyond his elite linear explosiveness and speed, Thornton is also a twitchy mover who can get defensive backs to jump and over-set with sudden moves at the line. The Baylor WR is able to plant and explode off stems, creating quick separation with his short-area burst. That twitch also enables him to sidestep single defenders after the catch."

(Creating separation? Check. No N'keal here?)

"Thornton’s speed is most definitely one of his top traits, but he’s a good player beyond that. With his twitch, Thornton has a solid release arsenal. He can use a roll step to get displacement and peel by DBs. He also has a brutal jab step, which he uses to explode upfield and instantly create space. Moreover, Thornton can use hand swipes to prevent DBs from jamming, and he also uses physicality at the stem to compound separation."

(Good releases? Like to hear.)

"Thornton has great concentration and focus at the catch point, and he can look the ball in through congestion. The Baylor WR is able to guide and pluck the ball with his hands and haul in passes amidst contact."

(Hands.)

"Thornton is a great receiver, but he’s just as strong as a blocker. He’s physical in that phase, surging into contact and giving maximum effort. He has combative hands but also knows when to extend and drive players back. Thornton can stack blocks and uses good angle awareness and leverage in space."

(Rail thin, but willing to block - and good at it?)

Ok. I want to learn more.
I mean you read that and you think, forget the third or fourth round... how did this guy last this long?
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,827
Needham, MA
This is a horseshit argument. I never said anything about dementia. Most people in all fields decline in their 70s. It’s absurd to think BB can be a “genius” in perpetuity. Or, for that matter, to argue that he’s not prone to favoritism with respect to his son
Your argument seems to be that the guy who looks like completely nailed the draft last year has lost it because you don’t like the first two guys he picked this year. What are you basing your opinion that he’s lost it on?
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
20,232
This is a bit, right? How many superbowls do you think he could've won if only he drafted better?
i probably should have said last 5-6 years

last draft was good but does anyone debate that the overall draft return was not pretty weak over the last 6 years? Kraft himself basically said as much

the current roster is without question below avg talent wise in the afc
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
4,684
Amstredam
I’m not implying he should be canned - even if he should, it’s not politically palatable for Kraft to do it. He’s earned the right to make the picks…but I DO worry that he’s not making the right picks overall for the last ten years

I do think having Brady made gm a very very different job
In the last ten years he has drafted Hightower, Chandler Jones, Logan Ryan, James While, Thuney, Jamie Collins, Darron Harmon, Jimmy G, Shaq Mason, Tre Flowers, Wynn, Harris, Drugger and last year's hall. To go along with Butler, Jackson and other UDFAs.

That is a good return and that includes some shit drafts recently.

To say his picks over the last ten years have not been great is crazy talk.
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
This is a horseshit argument. I never said anything about dementia. Most people in all fields decline in their 70s. It’s absurd to think BB can be a “genius” in perpetuity. Or, for that matter, to argue that he’s not prone to favoritism with respect to his son
Horseshit might be to say that someone is past their day when their most recent offseason should have reasonably gotten executive of the year consideration. Free agency and draft management last year was off the charts. You don't like his draft this year, we get it.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

Member
SoSH Member
May 11, 2011
10,392
NH
i probably should have said last 5-6 years

last draft was good but does anyone debate that the overall draft return was not pretty weak over the last 6 years? Kraft himself basically said as much

the current roster is without question below avg talent wise in the afc
Other than LB and CB this team is pretty talented
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
20,232
Your argument seems to be that the guy who looks like completely nailed the draft last year has lost it because you don’t like the first two guys he picked this year. What are you basing your opinion that he’s lost it on?
More than anything, my beef is that “in bill we trust” or “bb is a geniusl argument are kind of ridiculous considering the draft performance over the last 6 years

all of these draft comments are speculative bc we don’t know how things will shake out, but I think it’s absurd that bb can’t be questioned, especially considering the enormous role Brady played in his success
 

Average Game James

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
4,346
I mean, whatever you think of the overall draft record, over the past decade Bill's track record in rounds 1 & 2 is pretty poor and with the exception of Dugger his hits in the early rounds have really fallen more in-line with broader consensus. Mac dropping to 15 was a surprise, Barmore was considered a potential first rounder, and I think Wynn was largely thought to be a 1st round talent as well. It would be one thing to criticize if they were regularly hitting on these perceived reaches in rounds 1 & 2, but they really haven't. The Pats have succeeded in spite of their inability to get a lot of talent near the top of the draft.
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
20,232
Didn't he medically redshirt McGrone as well? People thought he was a decent draftee as well.
I’m a big Michigan fan and watched him a lot. He’s a really interesting prospect bc he was a beast as a soph but then kind of declined as a junior. He could be a good find - super athletic (at least he was as a soph)
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
4,684
Amstredam
More than anything, my beef is that “in bill we trust” or “bb is a geniusl argument are kind of ridiculous considering the draft performance over the last 6 years

all of these draft comments are speculative bc we don’t know how things will shake out, but I think it’s absurd that bb can’t be questioned, especially considering the enormous role Brady played in his success
No one is saying you can't question him. Hell this pick makes me much more nervous than Strange and I don't really like it.

But like others have said in BB we trust because he tends to be right in the aggregate. If he had missed last year I bet more people would be concerned, but so far the rebuild seems to be on track, so why trust others over him?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,376
In the last ten years he has drafted Hightower, Chandler Jones, Logan Ryan, James While, Thuney, Jamie Collins, Darron Harmon, Jimmy G, Shaq Mason, Tre Flowers, Wynn, Harris, Drugger and last year's hall. To go along with Butler, Jackson and other UDFAs.

That is a good return and that includes some shit drafts recently.

To say his picks over the last ten years have not been great is crazy talk.
ESPN just ran an article doing a fairly few dive into draft success since 2012. BB rates very highly, and is #2 in the NFL in draft success rounds 4-7.

He’s had some high profile misses, but on the whole he’s been fantastic at drafting.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,376
I’m a big Michigan fan and watched him a lot. He’s a really interesting prospect bc he was a beast as a soph but then kind of declined as a junior. He could be a good find - super athletic (at least he was as a soph)
Perkins was essentially redshirted as well. Two potential impact defenders who will essentially be rookies this year.
 

OnWisc

Microcosmic
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2006
6,844
Chicago, IL
More than anything, my beef is that “in bill we trust” or “bb is a geniusl argument are kind of ridiculous considering the draft performance over the last 6 years

all of these draft comments are speculative bc we don’t know how things will shake out, but I think it’s absurd that bb can’t be questioned, especially considering the enormous role Brady played in his success
I don’t think anyone is saying that criticism of the picks is completely unfounded or that the selections cannot be questioned because “hey, Bill.” But rather that in the face of incomplete information, the sharper criticism that implies that BB has certainly made the wrong pick is probably unfounded. I expected defense or an OT and would be happier had that happened, but I’m not going to pretend to know enough to get upset over what we did.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,580
NOVA
Below average talent… good lord.. here we go again. BB is able to coach up all the bad players he drafts. Every year I swear this is the talking point among his detractors. Not realizing that taking the guys he wants is in large part bc he feels he can coach them up and design schemes to their strengths in order to make the playoffs which he has proven almost every single year of his 22 here. Does he make bad picks like all gms yeah he does. But Jesus who doing this is perfect? He’s better at this than almost anyone alive.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,580
NOVA
I mean, whatever you think of the overall draft record, over the past decade Bill's track record in rounds 1 & 2 is pretty poor and with the exception of Dugger his hits in the early rounds have really fallen more in-line with broader consensus. Mac dropping to 15 was a surprise, Barmore was considered a potential first rounder, and I think Wynn was largely thought to be a 1st round talent as well. It would be one thing to criticize if they were regularly hitting on these perceived reaches in rounds 1 & 2, but they really haven't. The Pats have succeeded in spite of their inability to get a lot of talent near the top of the draft.
Here we go. Mac was an accident like Brady.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,275
Bad? How the fuck do we know? Surprising maybe. Interesting maybe. This is like when you root for a movie to win the Oscar because it's the only one you went to see.
I don’t really understand how thats comparable to what I said at all…

I noticed you highlighted the bad part. What I said was “with all of the information we have available to us” meaning going off of consensus big boards and draft analysts. All of them have uniformly said this was a reach. Now you may not care what they think, but again, that’s the info that we as fans have to go on.

…I also said “In Bill We Trust” too but you skipped over that part
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
20,232
I think part of my frustration is that the division seems to be make some huge strides around us. I don’t feel confident that we’re keeping up. Feels like we need high end speed and athleticism on D and it’s not happening (yet)
 

BuellMiller

New Member
Mar 25, 2015
449
ESPN just ran an article doing a fairly few dive into draft success since 2012. BB rates very highly, and is #2 in the NFL in draft success rounds 4-7.

He’s had some high profile misses, but on the whole he’s been fantastic at drafting.
Did the analysis include the average pick location of each team, since I’d guess the patriots were probably the lowest (not to mention the loss of the 1st, 3rd, and 4th rounders for the IG Law and spygate 2, Cincinnati bugaloo”)?
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
4,684
Amstredam
I think part of my frustration is that the division seems to be make some huge strides around us. I don’t feel confident that we’re keeping up. Feels like we need high end speed and athleticism on D and it’s not happening (yet)
That's fair. The division seems to be killing it and I agree with your lasts sentence. But they did need O-line and Wr help, so at least they are filling holes.
 

OnWisc

Microcosmic
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2006
6,844
Chicago, IL
Born in the USA? Really? Didn’t we go through this with Reagan’s campaign?

EDIT: I mean, seriously. For a league that has monumentally failed it’s veterans to play a song about failed veterans….
 

Seels

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
4,948
NH
why are they playing lee greenwood

This is literally the dumbest thing Ive ever seen. SOldiers don't like this stuff. Why are we doing it at the draft
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,580
NOVA
Not even remotely what I'm saying...
You said Mac dropping to them was a surprise. This was to highlight the point that bb sucks at drafting in the first couple rounds. How was I supposed to interpret your argument? Like it was a surprise and bb got lucky. Is that not how it reads?
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,580
NOVA
I think part of my frustration is that the division seems to be make some huge strides around us. I don’t feel confident that we’re keeping up. Feels like we need high end speed and athleticism on D and it’s not happening (yet)
I think your “yet” is important bc as he has shown throughout his tenure the draft isn’t the end of the offseason.