Celtics vs. Warriors, NBA Finals

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

Kliq said:
Tatum sometimes attacks immediately when he has a mismatch; but other times he also has the mismatch and he waits because he knows the double-team is coming, and he draws it and kicks it to the open guy. It's really opened up his playmaking during the playoffs.

I think part of JT's struggles during the playoffs has been trying to digest all of the different schemes and tempos that coaches are employing against him - i.e., where is help coming from, when is it coming, and who is providing it (and who is not).

The play below in particular is pretty amazing to me: JT beats Wiggins but while he is doing that, he sees Green stepping up. But more importantly, I guess he sees Klay taking two baby steps down to try to do something to prevent the lob threat. JT immediately processes this to know that the wing is open and throws a strike to PP for 3P while early enough that Green has no chance to impact the play.

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1534717430437761025

DJnVa · Jun 9, 2022

soxhop411 said:
Kerr not a fan of the crowds “treatment” of green
View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1534746719715573765

Get fucked, dude that coaches Draymond Green.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

Kliq said:
and then tried to sneak a floater over Rob, who jumped 20 feet in the air to send it back.

Looked like a goaltend to me but it it was it's great BOS got a call for a change.

View: https://twitter.com/TimeoutSPORTS3/status/1534735058522804228

Kliq · Jun 9, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I think part of JT's struggles during the playoffs has been trying to digest all of the different schemes and tempos that coaches are employing against him - i.e., where is help coming from, when is it coming, and who is providing it (and who is not).

The play below in particular is pretty amazing to me: JT beats Wiggins but while he is doing that, he sees Green stepping up. But more importantly, I guess he sees Klay taking two baby steps down to try to do something to prevent the lob threat. JT immediately processes this to know that the wing is open and throws a strike to PP for 3P while early enough that Green has no chance to impact the play.

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1534717430437761025

Yes; the way defenses are playing against Tatum reminds me a lot of the "Build a Wall" defense teams use against Giannis; particularly when Miami showed the ability to draw charges on him when he attacked the basket. Being able to recognize when those numbers are ramping up in the paint, and finding the open man, is the solution and I think Tatum has made huge improvements this season (just like Giannis did last year and unlocked that next level).

Strike4 · Jun 9, 2022

If ever there was a game in recent Boston Celtics history where it is imperative that the team not come out flat, turn the ball over or give in to refball antics by their opponent, it's Game 4. The only way the Warriors can win is if the Celtics hurt themselves.

lovegtm · Jun 9, 2022

DJnVa said:
Get fucked, dude that coaches Draymond Green.

Kerr really does whine about the dumbest shit. I get why he does it, and don't really begrudge him it.

It's what you have to do when your team isn't as good: move the contest away from basketball and to the dumb metagame as much as possible.

I have no problem with Steph Curry, because he tries to win by being the best he can be at *actual basketball*.

Helmet Head · Jun 9, 2022

I would be a little worried if I was the Warriors given the fact that both Thompson and Curry played really well offensively and they still didn’t really come close to winning. If you told me before game 3 that Curry and Thompson shot a combined 19-39 (including 11-24 from 3) for 56 points, I would have said the Warriors win. That said, I wouldn’t have factored in the Warriors inability to get stops on the defensive end. The Celtics are just bigger and stronger and basically imposed their will against them on the offensive end. I am really not sure what the Warriors can do about it either. If the Celtics play smart basketball, they really should win this series. They just have a history in these playoffs of having lapses when their backs aren’t against the wall. Hopefully they have rectified that and step on their throat Friday night.

BigSoxFan · Jun 9, 2022

Helmet Head said:
I would be a little worried if I was the Warriors given the fact that both Thompson and Curry played really well offensively and they still didn’t really come close to winning. If you told me before game 3 that Curry and Thompson shot a combined 19-39 (including 11-24 from 3) for 56 points, I would have said the Warriors win. That said, I wouldn’t have factored in the Warriors inability to get stops on the defensive end. The Celtics are just bigger and stronger and basically imposed their will against them on the offensive end. I am really not sure what the Warriors can do about it either. If the Celtics play smart basketball, they really should win this series. They just have a history in these playoffs of having lapses when their backs aren’t against the wall. Hopefully they have rectified that and step on their throat Friday night.

Not only that but Tatum shot 9-23. If the Celtics play defense like they're capable and Tatum plays one of his elite games, that'll be a lot for GS to overcome. But end of the day, I keep coming back to Horford/Smart. When they're "on", the 2022 Celtics has no equal in the league as long as Tatum/Brown have normal games amongst themselves. When they're off, like they were in Game 2, all bets are off. The 2 keys to this series are Horford/Smart and TL's availability/health.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 9, 2022

The one thing about all the drop coverage is it does limit passing lanes and impact of the “other guys” somewhat. Not saying it is always right approach, but I feel like celts defensive gameplan is to a good degree to make other guys (than Steph) win one on one and bet they cannot.

Warriors “number two” scorer is a lot weaker than any other Celtic playoff opponent - Kyrie; Holliday; Bam all better than Klay or Poole. We’ll see if “good Poole” changes that next few games or not, but I think the plan will continue to in part be limiting easy looks for Warriors deep but not elite secondary scorers

BaseballJones · Jun 9, 2022

Helmet Head said:
I would be a little worried if I was the Warriors given the fact that both Thompson and Curry played really well offensively and they still didn’t really come close to winning. If you told me before game 3 that Curry and Thompson shot a combined 19-39 (including 11-24 from 3) for 56 points, I would have said the Warriors win. That said, I wouldn’t have factored in the Warriors inability to get stops on the defensive end. The Celtics are just bigger and stronger and basically imposed their will against them on the offensive end. I am really not sure what the Warriors can do about it either. If the Celtics play smart basketball, they really should win this series. They just have a history in these playoffs of having lapses when their backs aren’t against the wall. Hopefully they have rectified that and step on their throat Friday night.

How did Golden State keep Boston from imposing their (Boston's) will on them in game 2? Because they held Boston to 88 points on just 37.5% shooting, while hanging even with them on the boards (Bos 43, GS 42).

Helmet Head · Jun 9, 2022

BaseballJones said:
How did Golden State keep Boston from imposing their (Boston's) will on them in game 2? Because they held Boston to 88 points on just 37.5% shooting, while hanging even with them on the boards (Bos 43, GS 42).

I think Dray got to them mentally in game 2 and completely got them off their game. They played really well offensively early and just got worse and worse as the game went on. It can for sure happen again as we have seen with the Celtics in these very playoffs.

BaseballJones · Jun 9, 2022

Helmet Head said:
I think Dray got to them mentally in game 2 and completely got them off their game. They played really well offensively early and just got worse and worse as the game went on. It can for sure happen again as we have seen with the Celtics in these very playoffs.

Yeah, I mean, these are two elite teams. Sometimes all it takes is for one team to be a little off their game for the outcome to be different. It's not difficult at all for me to envision Golden State winning game four. I never like when people say, "I don't see how GS can stop Boston" or whatever. I mean, they just curb stomped Boston in game 2...of COURSE they have the ability to stop Boston.

lovegtm · Jun 9, 2022

Helmet Head said:
I would be a little worried if I was the Warriors given the fact that both Thompson and Curry played really well offensively and they still didn’t really come close to winning. If you told me before game 3 that Curry and Thompson shot a combined 19-39 (including 11-24 from 3) for 56 points, I would have said the Warriors win. That said, I wouldn’t have factored in the Warriors inability to get stops on the defensive end. The Celtics are just bigger and stronger and basically imposed their will against them on the offensive end. I am really not sure what the Warriors can do about it either. If the Celtics play smart basketball, they really should win this series. They just have a history in these playoffs of having lapses when their backs aren’t against the wall. Hopefully they have rectified that and step on their throat Friday night.

Celtics have done a good job in these playoffs of letting stars get theirs while not letting that open other things up. If they limit turnovers, it's hard to crack 100 on them.

Now just waiting on Curry's ankle. If he's limited, 90 will be a chore for GS.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

Helmet Head said:
I would be a little worried if I was the Warriors given the fact that both Thompson and Curry played really well offensively and they still didn’t really come close to winning. If you told me before game 3 that Curry and Thompson shot a combined 19-39 (including 11-24 from 3) for 56 points, I would have said the Warriors win. That said, I wouldn’t have factored in the Warriors inability to get stops on the defensive end. The Celtics are just bigger and stronger and basically imposed their will against them on the offensive end. I am really not sure what the Warriors can do about it either. If the Celtics play smart basketball, they really should win this series. They just have a history in these playoffs of having lapses when their backs aren’t against the wall. Hopefully they have rectified that and step on their throat Friday night.

I'm not making any new points here (JVG basically said the same on the Lowe Post) but some of the lineups that GSW are running out there just aren't very athletic (particularly given Klay's limitations) or, really (if Curry wasn't superhuman) very good. A couple of examples:

Bjelica, Thompson, .Green, .Wiggins, .Poole - had a 183.3 DRtg in 3 minutes
S. Curry, .K. Thompson, .D. Green, .O. Porter Jr., .J. Poole - 166.7 DRtg in 2 minutes
.S. Curry, .K. Thompson, .A. Wiggins, .K. Looney, .J. Pool - 142.9 DRtg in 3 minutes.

GSW has some skilled players but are lacking in size and athleticism in their rotation. It will be interesting to see if Kerr goes to Kuminga instead of Bjelica since Bjelica did not hold up last night (183.3 DRtg).

BaseballJones said:
How did Golden State keep Boston from imposing their (Boston's) will on them in game 2? Because they held Boston to 88 points on just 37.5% shooting, while hanging even with them on the boards (Bos 43, GS 42).

GSW threw a scheme at JT and JB that they had trouble reading - sending late help once they got into the lane - which forced a lot of TOs. The only way GSW wins this series is if they force something like 20 TOs a game. But I guess after watching some film, some coaching, and some adjustments, JT and JB figured out to get rid of the ball before they got into the lane.

BTW, Ime should get some credit for moving Horford on to Wiggins. That was a good adjustment.

BaseballJones · Jun 9, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I'm not making any new points here (JVG basically said the same on the Lowe Post) but some of the lineups that GSW are running out there just aren't very athletic (particularly given Klay's limitations) or, really (if Curry wasn't superhuman) very good. A couple of examples:

Bjelica, Thompson, .Green, .Wiggins, .Poole - had a 183.3 DRtg in 3 minutes

S. Curry, .K. Thompson, .D. Green, .O. Porter Jr., .J. Poole - 166.7 DRtg in 2 minutes

.S. Curry, .K. Thompson, .A. Wiggins, .K. Looney, .J. Pool - 142.9 DRtg in 3 minutes.

GSW has some skilled players but are lacking in size and athleticism in their rotation. It will be interesting to see if Kerr goes to Kuminga instead of Bjelica since Bjelica did not hold up last night (183.3 DRtg).

GSW threw a scheme at JT and JB that they had trouble reading - sending late help once they got into the lane - which forced a lot of TOs. The only way GSW wins this series is if they force something like 20 TOs a game. But I guess after watching some film, some coaching, and some adjustments, JT and JB figured out to get rid of the ball before they got into the lane.

BTW, Ime should get some credit for moving Horford on to Wiggins. That was a good adjustment.

And if we think that's all GS can do, I think we're mistaken. Kerr is smart. His players are smart and really good. They will come up with something. I don't know that they'll beat Boston, but every time we think the Celtics have figured it out and the other team has no answer...the other team seems to win a game.

Strike4 · Jun 9, 2022

Helmet Head said:
I think Dray got to them mentally in game 2 and completely got them off their game. They played really well offensively early and just got worse and worse as the game went on. It can for sure happen again as we have seen with the Celtics in these very playoffs.

And if my memory isn't failing me, every Celtics loss this postseason has been caused (in part) by their opponent turning the game into a physical, foul-driven slugfest. You have to expect that Kerr is going to at least look at "being more physical" as an option.

Philip Jeff Frye · Jun 9, 2022

Helmet Head said:
I would be a little worried if I was the Warriors given the fact that both Thompson and Curry played really well offensively and they still didn’t really come close to winning. If you told me before game 3 that Curry and Thompson shot a combined 19-39 (including 11-24 from 3) for 56 points, I would have said the Warriors win. That said, I wouldn’t have factored in the Warriors inability to get stops on the defensive end. The Celtics are just bigger and stronger and basically imposed their will against them on the offensive end. I am really not sure what the Warriors can do about it either. If the Celtics play smart basketball, they really should win this series. They just have a history in these playoffs of having lapses when their backs aren’t against the wall. Hopefully they have rectified that and step on their throat Friday night.

I feel like I keep reading posts like this - "there's no way the Bucks/Heat/Warriors can win" - after a Celtics victory but then we come out and lay an egg in the next game to let the opponents back into the series. Hopefully we can avoid that outcome in game 4.

AlNipper49 · Jun 9, 2022

Philip Jeff Frye said:
I feel like I keep reading posts like this - "there's no way the Bucks/Heat/Warriors can win" - after a Celtics victory but then we come out and lay an egg in the next game to let the opponents back into the series. Hopefully we can avoid that outcome in game 4.

To counteract that, the Celts are also as weirdly set-the-clock-by reliable with coming back after losses (13-1 in their last 14). If they can win Game 4 that magic would need to really fail.

tims4wins · Jun 9, 2022

Philip Jeff Frye said:
I feel like I keep reading posts like this - "there's no way the Bucks/Heat/Warriors can win" - after a Celtics victory but then we come out and lay an egg in the next game to let the opponents back into the series. Hopefully we can avoid that outcome in game 4.

It's happened all playoffs.

That said, the only stat that seems to matter for the Celts is turnovers. Keep it < 15 and they win. Easier said than done though, as the level of physicality allowed by the refs plays a huge part.

reggiecleveland · Jun 9, 2022

scottyno said:
I wasn't aware that part of a swim move was grabbing the guy and trying to rip his arm off

Are you guys trolling me with intentional silly comments? If so well done you have been getting me.

Tatum grabs him with his right arm, which for those of you screaming for the rulebook would mean he should be whistled for a foul, but refs do not call fouls without a result. Ever notice the pushing could whistle after a guy gets an o board? That is because if defense gets the ball "no harm no foul" and play continues. Dray (shocking I know) understands how NBA ball works better than us, knows once Tatum grabs him refs will allow him to remove or try to get Tatum's arm off him. Tatum is strong enough Dray had trouble and did not get inside. Overall it is big boy basketball where Tatum won. Nothing to see let alone, cry about.

TFisNEXT · Jun 9, 2022

lovegtm said:
Celtics have done a good job in these playoffs of letting stars get theirs while not letting that open other things up. If they limit turnovers, it's hard to crack 100 on them.

Now just waiting on Curry's ankle. If he's limited, 90 will be a chore for GS.

It's really about the turnovers for the C's. If they are limiting turnovers, they are almost impossible to beat. When they allow them, they are not only giving away an offensive possession, but they are allowing transition baskets. Nobody has really been able to score against the C's defense in the half court set.

BaseballJones · Jun 9, 2022

Regarding turnovers...here's their game-by-game results for the playoffs.

G1 vs Bkl - 14 TO, W
G2 vs Bkl - 14 TO, W
G3 at Bkl - 14 TO, W
G4 at Bkl - 13 TO, W
G1 vs Mil - 18 TO, L
G2 vs Mil - 11 TO, W
G3 at Mil - 12 TO, L (the game where Smart should have gotten 3 free throws at the end)
G4 at Mil - 11 TO, W
G5 vs Mil - 10 TO, L
G6 at Mil - 8 TO, W
G7 vs Mil - 12 TO, W
G1 at Mia - 16 TO, L
G2 at Mia - 9 TO, W
G3 vs Mia - 23 TO, L
G4 vs Mia - 9 TO, W
G5 at Mia - 15 TO, W
G6 vs Mia - 17 TO, L
G7 at Mia - 13 TO, W
G1 at GS - 12 TO, W
G2 at GS - 18 TO, L
G3 vs GS - 12 TO, W

So to break this down...
- They've had 6 games with more than 15 turnovers. In those 6 games, they're 0-6.
- They've had 12 games with fewer than 14 turnovers. In those 12 games, they're 10-2.
- They've had 4 games with 14 or 15 turnovers. In those games, they're 4-0.
- So...0-6 when turning it over more than 15 times; 14-2 when turning it over 15 times or fewer.

The two games they turned it over relatively few times and lost (G3 at Mil, G5 at Mil), were both very close games. They lost one by two in the game where Smart should have been given three free throws with 4 seconds left and then missed three chances to tie the game at the very end. They lost the other by three when Boston held a one-point lead with 11 seconds left and Portis scored, followed by Smart's shot being blocked by Holiday. So two games they absolutely COULD have won.

I really don't think it's quite THIS simple, but honestly....if the Celtics take care of the ball, they're very very likely to win.

CapeCodYaz · Jun 9, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I'm not making any new points here (JVG basically said the same on the Lowe Post) but some of the lineups that GSW are running out there just aren't very athletic (particularly given Klay's limitations) or, really (if Curry wasn't superhuman) very good. A couple of examples:

Bjelica, Thompson, .Green, .Wiggins, .Poole - had a 183.3 DRtg in 3 minutes

S. Curry, .K. Thompson, .D. Green, .O. Porter Jr., .J. Poole - 166.7 DRtg in 2 minutes

.S. Curry, .K. Thompson, .A. Wiggins, .K. Looney, .J. Pool - 142.9 DRtg in 3 minutes.

GSW has some skilled players but are lacking in size and athleticism in their rotation. It will be interesting to see if Kerr goes to Kuminga instead of Bjelica since Bjelica did not hold up last night (183.3 DRtg).

GSW threw a scheme at JT and JB that they had trouble reading - sending late help once they got into the lane - which forced a lot of TOs. The only way GSW wins this series is if they force something like 20 TOs a game. But I guess after watching some film, some coaching, and some adjustments, JT and JB figured out to get rid of the ball before they got into the lane.

BTW, Ime should get some credit for moving Horford on to Wiggins. That was a good adjustment.

GS never adjusted by switching when Brown or Tatum drives/slices to the rim--we'll take Curry and Green trying to cover those two driving all game long. I'm not impressed with Kerr's lack of in game adjustments yet

RedOctober3829 · Jun 9, 2022

Let's see if the Celtics can finally learn their lessons about letting their guard down and losing their focus after a win. Last night's first half effort should set the shining example of what happens when you move the ball with pace and also the amount of movement and cutting without the ball. The offense goes right into the shitter when they hunt certain matchups and go into a more iso based offense. Everybody stands around and watches the man with the ball instead of moving and cutting. It makes things a lot easier for the Warriors to defend as they can help on drives easier and double team further out and disrupt the iso attempt. As I've continued to say, they will get favorable matchups every time down the court if they play fast and move without the ball efficiently. Those matchups will come organically in the flow of motion. When GS goes zone, the same applies. The give and go with Horford and Smart is the big example of how to play against the zone.

Defensively, absolutely no more drop coverage on Steph. Going to the 1 big lineup with Rob's length on the perimeter was the best way to get into Curry's space. Horford was an absolute disaster defending that last night. How you give a shooter like Steph free looks at the rim is beyond me and it kept happening time after time in the 3rd quarter.

lars10 · Jun 9, 2022

tims4wins said:
It's happened all playoffs.

That said, the only stat that seems to matter for the Celts is turnovers. Keep it < 15 and they win. Easier said than done though, as the level of physicality allowed by the refs plays a huge part.

This. In game twoFray was literally allowed to tackle people. There were a lot of reaches that weren’t called that led to turnovers. Tatum and Brown got two fouls in the first quarter.

None of that had to do with how GS schemed or played. They also shot incredibly and Boston had a lot of sloppy turnovers.

game 3 they didn’t get the benefit of the calls. Dray was called for most of his fouls. Curry was given some pretty ticky tack fouls that weren’t called in game two. First quarter felt almost scripted that way.. then I think calls were pretty even.

Finals games are changed significantly by what players get two fouls early because rotations have to be changed and lineups are shorter.

I’d be interested to know what GS did in game 2 that also helped them win.. what changes did they make that helped them win.

Batman Likes The Sox · Jun 9, 2022

Huge game four ahead in a series that has been very entertaining. I can’t recall the last Boston playoff run in any sport where I’ve just enjoyed the thing so much.

Obviously no convincing is needed here but who has the crowd chanted “f you” to so far in the playoffs? Kyrie, Grayson, and Draymond, correct? Feels like we’ve got the high ground.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 9, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I know this is cherry picked but to me the difference in GSW's defense versus BOS's defense in the two clips below is striking and says almost everything about this series.

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1534721133311840257

The only problem here is that the Warriors could have posted the same examples after Game 2 about the differences between their defense and the Celtics. We need to avoid our usual complacency following a win and much of it comes from the defensive energy and passion. Can’t sleep on this Warriors team or we’ll be down 3-2. If we play to our capabilities each game it ends in 5 or 6.

m0ckduck · Jun 9, 2022

RedOctober3829 said:
.Defensively, absolutely no more drop coverage on Steph. Going to the 1 big lineup with Rob's length on the perimeter was the best way to get into Curry's space. Horford was an absolute disaster defending that last night. How you give a shooter like Steph free looks at the rim is beyond me and it kept happening time after time in the 3rd quarter.

There was an interesting segment from KOC on the Simmons podcast today about how Boston was one of the teams to blitz the PnR least often but with the most success during the regular season. His speculation was that they are perhaps holding onto this as an ace up the sleeve for later in the series, given that it’s exhausting to run this all series and allows GSW to adjust. It will be interesting to see if they break it out as a kill shot in a crucial spot later in the series. The Warriors have been very good at shredding the blitz over the years, but there’s nothing like the element of surprise.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 9, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Looked like a goaltend to me but it it was it's great BOS got a call for a change.

View: https://twitter.com/TimeoutSPORTS3/status/1534735058522804228

Definitely a goaltend and one of many good whistles (or non-whistles) we got last night. Home cooking was tasty.

RedOctober3829 · Jun 9, 2022

lars10 said:
This. In game twoFray was literally allowed to tackle people. There were a lot of reaches that weren’t called that led to turnovers. Tatum and Brown got two fouls in the first quarter.

None of that had to do with how GS schemed or played. They also shot incredibly and Boston had a lot of sloppy turnovers.

game 3 they didn’t get the benefit of the calls. Dray was called for most of his fouls. Curry was given some pretty ticky tack fouls that weren’t called in game two. First quarter felt almost scripted that way.. then I think calls were pretty even.

Finals games are changed significantly by what players get two fouls early because rotations have to be changed and lineups are shorter.

I’d be interested to know what GS did in game 2 that also helped them win.. what changes did they make that helped them win.

Yeah the officiating was pretty fair last night. Some missed calls or soft calls for both sides. GS in game 2 specifically got into the Celtics defensively and made getting into the offense much more difficult. They took away airspace for Tatum/Brown and made it harder to get into a real flow. It frustrated the Celtics. Last night, the Celtics were much more aggressive and decided to just get a head of steam and drive their way into the lane and dared GS to stop them. Narrator: they didn't.

RedOctober3829 · Jun 9, 2022

m0ckduck said:
There was an interesting segment from KOC on the Simmons podcast today about how Boston was one of the teams to blitz the PnR least often but with the most success during the regular season. His speculation was that they are perhaps holding onto this as an ace up the sleeve for later in the series, given that it’s exhausting to run this all series and allows GSW to adjust. It will be interesting to see if they break it out as a kill shot in a crucial spot later in the series. The Warriors have been very good at shredding the blitz over the years, but there’s nothing like the element of surprise.

Having Klay find his shot last night would make this strategy a lot more risky. Passing it out of a double team and having the ball end up in Klay's hot hands may not be the best way to go about it.

RedOctober3829 · Jun 9, 2022

View: https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1534912919078584320?s=20&t=wVBsULUEs7QFaeIPFbiUSQ

lovegtm · Jun 9, 2022

RedOctober3829 said:
View: https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1534912919078584320?s=20&t=wVBsULUEs7QFaeIPFbiUSQ

As I said upthread, it's painfully obvious that he's old and has lost multiple steps on defense. He can still do help stuff (he's a basketball genius), protect the rim, and foul guys. But with an even whistle and good opposing offensive strategy, he's not a positive factor out there.

(This is not saying the Celtics will win this series; this is saying that Draymond has been bad.)

Strike4 · Jun 9, 2022

lars10 said:
I’d be interested to know what GS did in game 2 that also helped them win.. what changes did they make that helped them win.

It's hard to tell if this also applies to other teams (since I don't see them as much as the Celtics) but there is definitely a cascading effect when it comes to the Celtics: questionable fouls called on them > more drives in traffic by Tatum and Brown > more frustration when fouls aren't called and shots are missed > more steals when opponents adjust to the drives > more transition baskets by opponent > loss of defensive edge by Celtics.

It's almost like Jaylen Brown is a microcosm of the team. When the team is playing great we're all like "this is incredible" and when they start to get sloppy we're like "WHAT ARE YOU DOING".

benhogan · Jun 9, 2022

lovegtm said:
As I said upthread, it's painfully obvious that he's old and has lost multiple steps on defense. He can still do help stuff (he's a basketball genius), protect the rim, and foul guys. But with an even whistle and good opposing offensive strategy, he's not a positive factor out there.

(This is not saying the Celtics will win this series; this is saying that Draymond has been bad.)

Boston is a bad match-up for Dray/GSW. Dray is best shutting down a BIG trying to back him down. Perimeter Dray on Tatum/Brown isn't where he wants to live at this stage of his career.

Someone brought up the question this morning, are the Warriors a Wing short? was hoarding Moody/Wiseman/Kuminga wise with Curry/Klay/Dray at the tail end of their primes?

Probably too young/raw but Kuminga is the kind of freak athlete that wouldn't be overmatched on the perimeter or let the Jays get downhill.

joe dokes · Jun 9, 2022

Philip Jeff Frye said:
I feel like I keep reading posts like this - "there's no way the Bucks/Heat/Warriors can win" - after a Celtics victory but then we come out and lay an egg in the next game to let the opponents back into the series. Hopefully we can avoid that outcome in game 4.

Some of it is egg-laying. But as a Coach once reminded me, "the other guys are on the varsity, too."

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

BaseballJones said:
I really don't think it's quite THIS simple, but honestly....if the Celtics take care of the ball, they're very very likely to win.

Thanks for the info. On your last sentence, sometimes it is that easy. JT agrees - sometimes it isn't "rocket science."

View: https://youtu.be/bRaqvM2wPsg?t=82

lars10 · Jun 9, 2022

RedOctober3829 said:
Yeah the officiating was pretty fair last night. Some missed calls or soft calls for both sides. GS in game 2 specifically got into the Celtics defensively and made getting into the offense much more difficult. They took away airspace for Tatum/Brown and made it harder to get into a real flow. It frustrated the Celtics. Last night, the Celtics were much more aggressive and decided to just get a head of steam and drive their way into the lane and dared GS to stop them. Narrator: they didn't.

I thought the first foul on Curry was really weak… and I remember thinking there were a few others but after that I think it was pretty even. Celts were allowed to be a lot more aggressive on D, though, than we’re in game 2.

Auger34 · Jun 9, 2022

joe dokes said:
I so want to hear that from a Celtic. "It's understandable why he has to play that way."

It wasn’t quite as direct as that but Jaylen Brown said something pretty similar after Game 2

lars10 · Jun 9, 2022

lovegtm said:
As I said upthread, it's painfully obvious that he's old and has lost multiple steps on defense. He can still do help stuff (he's a basketball genius), protect the rim, and foul guys. But with an even whistle and good opposing offensive strategy, he's not a positive factor out there.

(This is not saying the Celtics will win this series; this is saying that Draymond has been bad.)

Reading Warriors boards, they’re also tired of his act. A lot of them were asking why Looney doesn’t play more.

benhogan · Jun 9, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Thanks for the info. On your last sentence, sometimes it is that easy. JT agrees - sometimes it isn't "rocket science."

View: https://youtu.be/bRaqvM2wPsg?t=82

rim reads/too deep under the hoop by Smart/JT led to a handful of live turnovers and easy transition baskets last night. By the 4th quarter that ended, hope they can carry over that momentum

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

Strike4 said:
And if my memory isn't failing me, every Celtics loss this postseason has been caused (in part) by their opponent turning the game into a physical, foul-driven slugfest. You have to expect that Kerr is going to at least look at "being more physical" as an option.

Agree on MIL and MIA making the game super physical, but GSW isn't built like MIL or MIA. Yes Green can be super physical like MIL and MIA, but MIL had Lopez and Portis and Holiday and others who could muck it up. MIA had Lowry and Butler and Martin and Bam (kind of). Who does GSW have other than Green? Iguadola might have been but he's too old. Porter? Wiggins?

m0ckduck said:
There was an interesting segment from KOC on the Simmons podcast today about how Boston was one of the teams to blitz the PnR least often but with the most success during the regular season. His speculation was that they are perhaps holding onto this as an ace up the sleeve for later in the series, given that it’s exhausting to run this all series and allows GSW to adjust. It will be interesting to see if they break it out as a kill shot in a crucial spot later in the series. The Warriors have been very good at shredding the blitz over the years, but there’s nothing like the element of surprise.

I think the Cs don't want to blitz because GSW is one of the best teams - if not the best - playing 4 on 3.

I don't think they need to either. I think the Cs bigs did a better job getting up to the level of the screener on high PnRs but I also recognize that GSW has counters (see video below). Still I think I'd rather live with Steph driving on the Cs bigs than playing 4 on 3 after a blitz.

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1534732561343205376

PedroKsBambino · Jun 9, 2022

reggiecleveland said:
Are you guys trolling me with intentional silly comments? If so well done you have been getting me.

Tatum grabs him with his right arm, which for those of you screaming for the rulebook would mean he should be whistled for a foul, but refs do not call fouls without a result. Ever notice the pushing could whistle after a guy gets an o board? That is because if defense gets the ball "no harm no foul" and play continues. Dray (shocking I know) understands how NBA ball works better than us, knows once Tatum grabs him refs will allow him to remove or try to get Tatum's arm off him. Tatum is strong enough Dray had trouble and did not get inside. Overall it is big boy basketball where Tatum won. Nothing to see let alone, cry about.

That is not what happened, though. Tatum's right arm is by the basket, nowhere near Draymond to start with. Tatum reaches out with his left arm to put it in front of Draymond (which is legal) and Draymond grabs Tatum's body to move and try to get inside position. That's the foul people are asking for. Tatum's right arm is not even close to involved until after Draymond grabbed him. Are you looking at after Draymond essentially picks Tatum up and moves him that Tatum's right arm could have grabbed Green's inside arm (which we cannot see on the replay, but is possible)? If that's the case----even in your interpretation--Tatum's is very clearly the second foul and thus irrelevant on this place.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

benhogan said:
rim reads/too deep under the hoop by Smart/JT led to a handful of live turnovers and easy transition baskets last night. By the 4th quarter that ended, hope they can carry over that momentum

Marcus had a few WTF TOs last night. Hopefully Ime got on him at some point because it stopped in the 4Q

JT only had two TOs last night. The second was the poke away by Wiggins late in the game that didn't really matter other than to keep the Cs serious for another minute.

The other was a pass to GW in the corner after the drive. The read was correct-ish (I can't tell if it was supposed to be a hammer play with TL setting a screen for GW; GW was wide-open nonetheless but the pass was difficult because there were a couple of bodies in the way) but the real problem is that GW tried to save the ball towards the Cs basket, which lead to a run-out - this was the play where White defended Steph at the 3P line and fouled someone at the basket.

I remember White talking to GW after the play, presumably to tell him not to throw the ball towards the Cs basket.

GeorgeCostanza · Jun 9, 2022

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I think part of JT's struggles during the playoffs has been trying to digest all of the different schemes and tempos that coaches are employing against him - i.e., where is help coming from, when is it coming, and who is providing it (and who is not).

The play below in particular is pretty amazing to me: JT beats Wiggins but while he is doing that, he sees Green stepping up. But more importantly, I guess he sees Klay taking two baby steps down to try to do something to prevent the lob threat. JT immediately processes this to know that the wing is open and throws a strike to PP for 3P while early enough that Green has no chance to impact the play.

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1534717430437761025

Low key great play by PP as well. As soon as Klay drops to protect against a weak side Rob lob, Pritch leaks up to give Tatum a wide open passing lane.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 9, 2022

lars10 said:
I thought the first foul on Curry was really weak… and I remember thinking there were a few others but after that I think it was pretty even. Celts were allowed to be a lot more aggressive on D, though, than we’re in game 2.

What about the 3rd when White flopped into the screener due to the supernatural force of Steph’s hand on his shoulder?

benhogan said:
Boston is a bad match-up for Dray/GSW. Dray is best shutting down a BIG trying to back him down. Perimeter Dray on Tatum/Brown isn't where he wants to live at this stage of his career.

Someone brought up the question this morning, are the Warriors a Wing short? was hoarding Moody/Wiseman/Kuminga wise with Curry/Klay/Dray at the tail end of their primes?

Probably too young/raw but Kuminga is the kind of freak athlete that wouldn't be overmatched on the perimeter or let the Jays get downhill.

Yup, we talked pre-series about the matchup and while Draymond was great defensively even on the perimeter in the G2 3Q it isn’t something that he can sustain……but the Warriors lack the defensive perimeter personnel to really have anyone else out there. Looking back it’s hard to believe that they didn’t address this need at the deadline. If Iggy was a few years younger it would be different but did they really feel Kuminga or Moody could be that guy? I mean it is/was a clear hole in their defense……what would it have taken OKC to move Bazley? Moody and a future #1 after Curry’s relevant or more?

Kliq · Jun 9, 2022

I'm surprised we haven't seen more of Porter from GS. He's playing 19 mpg; but in this series; a big wing that is a solid defender and can knock down threes would seem to be pretty valuable.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

benhogan said:
Boston is a bad match-up for Dray/GSW. Dray is best shutting down a BIG trying to back him down. Perimeter Dray on Tatum/Brown isn't where he wants to live at this stage of his career.

Someone brought up the question this morning, are the Warriors a Wing short? was hoarding Moody/Wiseman/Kuminga wise with Curry/Klay/Dray at the tail end of their primes?

Probably too young/raw but Kuminga is the kind of freak athlete that wouldn't be overmatched on the perimeter or let the Jays get downhill.

Just as WAG, I can see GSW going into the series thinking that they had enough to win but if they lose this series, it will be hard not to conclude they are at least a wing short. Not trying to get ahead of myself, but I do have to wonder what Curry thinks of GSW stockpiling young talent for the time after Steph retires rather than cashing in chips to get Steph another ring. (Obviously same can be said of Draymond and Klay but Steph is the straw that stirs that drink.)

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jun 9, 2022

Kliq said:
I'm surprised we haven't seen more of Porter from GS. He's playing 19 mpg; but in this series; a big wing that is a solid defender and can knock down threes would seem to be pretty valuable.

Porter didn't look great to me. He also looks a step slow. According to NBA.com, BOS shot 5-6 when Porter was on defense.

The second video below is a clip Smart driving past Porter and Porter doesn't offer much resistance.

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1534722745254150146

tbrown_01923 · Jun 9, 2022

HomeRunBaker said:
Looking back it’s hard to believe that they didn’t address this need at the deadline. If Iggy was a few years younger it would be different but did they really feel Kuminga or Moody could be that guy? I mean it is/was a clear hole in their defense……what would it have taken OKC to move Bazley? Moody and a future #1 after Curry’s relevant or more?

Unless one of the wings really matures it's likley going to be hard for them to addres it in the offseason given their cap picture without a trade. I understand wanting to bridge to a contender after curry, but I don't know if I see those players on the current roster. It was probably worth trading some of that potential future to put 2021-2022 and 2022-2023 GSW in best position for a title.

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