The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,837
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
One thing that's starting to concern me a bit with Mac is that he might lack that killer instinct to go and grab a game they had no business being in. I don't think his play style changes enough when trailing in the second half and he just never attacks the intermediate/deep middle of the field. It's always either something underneath, a throw to the flat, a screen or a deep ball down the sidelines.

When down late you need chunk plays, scoring isn't enough, you need to score quickly, and the rainbow fade can't be the only tool in your arsenal to get those yards. This is where I tend to think the arm limitations come in a little bit. I still like him and think he's a QB you can win with even if there's no significant improvement, but I want to see more aggressiveness, this version of the Pats is a front running team, they never feel comfortable trading blows or having to claw back from being down in a hole. Right now the margin of error is just way too small, they struggle to overcome adversity, and when you throw an interception on your first drive in three consecutive games, the loss might as well be guaranteed.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,942
Dallas
I think it is too early to judge his arm-strength progress on just one game, especially a week 1 game where the over-reactions are at their peak. But I am having trouble envisioning him ever making a throw like this one Herbert made yesterday.


I think Mac right now is a very high-floor/low-ceiling QB. Maybe there are some throws from last season I don't remember where he threw a bullet like that, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. I was watching that play live yesterday, and my first thought was, "Mac cannot make a throw like that." I haven't had to worry about a Patriots QB's throwing ability since 1993, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. Bledsoe had his many flaws, but he could sling it through a brick wall.
I was thinking about this one yesterday because Mac has ignored a lot of the middle of the field in the 10-20 yard range especially lately. I believe it is because 1) defenders are flooding the middle and daring him to beat them on the outside (no all-22 but several mentioned this was the case), and 2) he doesn't have the zip to fit it into tight windows when he needs to get it in quickly because they close soon. Even his quick outs looked like wounded ducks yesterday.


I want to challenge the notion that the pass pro was so awful we can't glean anything from it. I don't think the pass pro was atrocious. Oh Trent Brown had some bad moments but out of 33 dropbacks Mac was pressured 4 times. That's it. 2 sacks unfortunately, 1 hit, and 1 hurry. Some of that was because Mac got rid of the ball quickly but I think we are overestimating how bad the protection was yesterday because of a few glaring examples.

55384

Mac also took some late hits but he also was not pressured nearly as much as other QBs.
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
4,508
Worcester
Agreed 100%, too early to tell. And not a ton of throws with time when extra zip was even required.

But when you're hoping someone can break out 94 mph and you only see 88 mph game 1, that's still a bit of a bummer.
I saw a some 95 when 88 was required, too. A crossing route to N.A earlier in the game (maybe the same play that later led to the fum) where the ball was there too quickly. There was only one throw that I remember (an out to Meyers) where the ball really seemed to hang .
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

Aaron Burr
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
4,271
OR 12
Cc @DaveRoberts'Shoes
Hopefully it’s nothing too serious.
He definitely looked very stiff walking down the tunnel after the x-rays were taken. Looked like he probably got torqued on that high-low play and was able to play through it but once he stopped moving and it stiffened up… I’m sure he was hating getting off that plane ride to Boston
 

Jungleland

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2009
2,371
Beat writer language has been less concerning fwiw. Maybe just my read on it, but I think he plays.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,317
I was going to write that it’s impossible to win in the nfl anymore without a star QB, but Flacco, Eli, Peyton’s corpse and Foles have all won in the past decade and I think Mac’s upside is probably in that range.

Obviously, not having the best QB ever on a team friendly deal makes the rest of roster construction much more difficult and I don’t think we’ve seen that done by Bill yet, but if anyone can….
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,211
Mac also took some late hits but he also was not pressured nearly as much as other QBs.
Just want to challenge that bolded a bit, as the below indicates he was pressured a lot more than the pressure stats indicate:

View: https://twitter.com/ChadGraff/status/1569325299971530753


If Mac has no time to throw, he's not going to be able to complete passes into tight windows no matter his arm strength. And, to be fair, I am very much concerned about Mac's ceiling after yesterday's game; a QB that cannot complete those middle-of-field 10-20 yard throws cannot succeed in today's NFL. But it was also one game, and if the OL is that bad (which confirmed what my eyes told me), then it's hard to pin much on Jones.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,758
Just want to challenge that bolded a bit, as the below indicates he was pressured a lot more than the pressure stats indicate:

View: https://twitter.com/ChadGraff/status/1569325299971530753


If Mac has no time to throw, he's not going to be able to complete passes into tight windows no matter his arm strength. And, to be fair, I am very much concerned about Mac's ceiling after yesterday's game; a QB that cannot complete those middle-of-field 10-20 yard throws cannot succeed in today's NFL. But it was also one game, and if the OL is that bad (which confirmed what my eyes told me), then it's hard to pin much on Jones.
I would push back a bit on this because Graff is using a stat to say something it doesn't say. He's using quickest time to throw and saying that it equals "least time available to throw, and under constant pressure" but that isn't what it means. It COULD be because of that or:
It could mean he was getting it out quick by design.
it could mean he was under pressure.
it could mean he was panicky and threw quicker than needed.
I think based on SMU's pull, that it's more 1 and 3 than 2. If you were truly under siege, I'd expect more actual pressures. As you would also expect when guys hold the ball through progressions and accept they'll take a hit.

That mixes well with what I saw in this game (and in pre-season), there were a lot of quick short no-hope passes behind the line, and as happened throughout pre-season there were plays where Mac rushed into things because he THOUGHT there was pressure, when by NFL standards there wasn't. In the NFL you have to be able to accept some pressure to make plays, you have to step up or slide in the pocket and get to 3, 4, occasionally even 5 seconds, because that's how you make plays against pressure. If you dump it to the RB or short route the minute there is semi-pressure, you're not going to score or win except against bad defenses.
 

Gash Prex

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 18, 2002
6,837
Just want to challenge that bolded a bit, as the below indicates he was pressured a lot more than the pressure stats indicate:

View: https://twitter.com/ChadGraff/status/1569325299971530753


If Mac has no time to throw, he's not going to be able to complete passes into tight windows no matter his arm strength. And, to be fair, I am very much concerned about Mac's ceiling after yesterday's game; a QB that cannot complete those middle-of-field 10-20 yard throws cannot succeed in today's NFL. But it was also one game, and if the OL is that bad (which confirmed what my eyes told me), then it's hard to pin much on Jones.
Mac was essentially league average as a rookie throwing the 10-20 yard middle field throws. I’m unsure why 1 game means so much to this forum after a full season

55388
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
14,924
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
Mac was essentially league average as a rookie throwing the 10-20 yard middle field throws. I’m unsure why 1 game means so much to this forum after a full season

View attachment 55388
It doesn't mean "so much" to us in that it's the only data that we have so far and thus the only thing we have to react to. Obviously we hope he gets better and if he does we'll change our stance. Right now it doesn't look good, but we'll see where it goes.

I will say, I'm glad we're not starting Geno Smith though.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,219
Imaginationland
I was going to write that it’s impossible to win in the nfl anymore without a star QB, but Flacco, Eli, Peyton’s corpse and Foles have all won in the past decade and I think Mac’s upside is probably in that range.

Obviously, not having the best QB ever on a team friendly deal makes the rest of roster construction much more difficult and I don’t think we’ve seen that done by Bill yet, but if anyone can….
Stafford as well. If we expand the list to include players who just made it to the super bowl in the last decade, we can also count Kaepernick, Goff, Jimmy G...obviously having a star QB is the most consistent path to contention, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that you NEED one to win.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,511
around the way
I'm stunned that the home forum of a guy who grew into the long ball and was critiqued by most of the football intelligentsia for being a "game manager" until he had Randy Moss is humping the leg of the big-arm QB motif. I mean, that GOAT's predecessor had a huge arm that he rode to a metric fuckton of passing yards and one title as a clipboard holder. You don't need Josh Allen's arm. You don't need Aaron Rodgers' arm and playmaking. You need brains, accuracy, ball placement, judgment, and enough arm to compete. Ffs, it's one game.
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
14,924
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
It doesn't mean "so much" to us in that it's the only data that we have so far and thus the only thing we have to react to. Obviously we hope he gets better and if he does we'll change our stance. Right now it doesn't look good, but we'll see where it goes.

I will say, I'm glad we're not starting Geno Smith though.
Maybe I want Geno actually.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,758
Maybe I want Geno actually.
He's about to be 32, but honestly..... they actually graded out similarly last year by PFF (74 vs 78 or something like that?) and the other rate based numbers were pretty similar (obviously Geno only played 4 games) they aren't right now, that different in terms of level of QB... obviously Mac is 8 years young and has way more upside.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,642
Yeah, these analytics on time to release and pressure % seem highly flawed without human judgement on each play.
Humans tend to rush things when under duress. Again, I am just a layperson but Jones definitely looked hurried - and perhaps it was all on him - most of the time on Sunday.

Maybe the pressure he was feeling wasn't really there. But Sunday looked like the polar opposite of the rookie QB who seemed perfectly comfortable most of his first season. Maybe that isn't an accurate characterization but it sure seemed like he was effectively running for his life all day
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,614
Humans tend to rush things when under duress. Again, I am just a layperson but Jones definitely looked hurried - and perhaps it was all on him - most of the time on Sunday.

Maybe the pressure he was feeling wasn't really there. But Sunday looked like the polar opposite of the rookie QB who seemed perfectly comfortable most of his first season. Maybe that isn't an accurate characterization but it sure seemed like he was effectively running for his life all day
Maybe "hurrying," not "hurried"?
 

The Social Chair

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 17, 2010
6,115
I'm stunned that the home forum of a guy who grew into the long ball and was critiqued by most of the football intelligentsia for being a "game manager" until he had Randy Moss is humping the leg of the big-arm QB motif. I mean, that GOAT's predecessor had a huge arm that he rode to a metric fuckton of passing yards and one title as a clipboard holder. You don't need Josh Allen's arm. You don't need Aaron Rodgers' arm and playmaking. You need brains, accuracy, ball placement, judgment, and enough arm to compete. Ffs, it's one game.
I'm not crazy enough to compare Mac Jones to Tom Brady in any facet of the game.

That pre-2007 narrative was wrong anyway because Brady was slinging it in the Deon Branch era. He has a better arm at 45 than Mac does now.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,758
Humans tend to rush things when under duress. Again, I am just a layperson but Jones definitely looked hurried - and perhaps it was all on him - most of the time on Sunday.

Maybe the pressure he was feeling wasn't really there. But Sunday looked like the polar opposite of the rookie QB who seemed perfectly comfortable most of his first season. Maybe that isn't an accurate characterization but it sure seemed like he was effectively running for his life all day
Yeah, in pre-season I saw a lot of hurrying without NFL pressure. Maybe part of it is that last year he had a really good line, and it's a lot easier to trust your line when they are really good (though he did some of the hurrying and mis-reading stuff early last year, before settling). But to me the one constant through pre-season and week 1 was Mac not really having a good feel for where pressure was coming from, and how close it was to getting home. The line hasn't been as good, and Mac hasn't handled it well.

Edit- could also be an issue of Teams figuring out what he likes/doesn't and exploiting it more, and maybe an offensive staff that doesn't do as good a job in helping him out (or conversely Josh was better at forcing him to look downfield by running fewer sub 3 yard routes.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,511
around the way
I'm not crazy enough to compare Mac Jones to Tom Brady in any facet of the game.

That pre-2007 narrative was wrong anyway because Brady was slinging it in the Deon Branch era. He has a better arm at 45 than Mac does now.
45yo Tom Brady has a much better arm that 23yo Tom Brady too. Yes, the narrative was wrong, in how over the top it was. But look at Brady's passing analytics in his first two years and compare them against his contemporaries. He was not a big armed guy. He became one.
 

Bigdogx

New Member
Jul 21, 2020
163
I'm not crazy enough to compare Mac Jones to Tom Brady in any facet of the game.

That pre-2007 narrative was wrong anyway because Brady was slinging it in the Deon Branch era. He has a better arm at 45 than Mac does now.
Without a doubt, i have seen more floater wtf is that type passes from Jones already in 1 season and a game, then 20+ years of watching Brady.

I don't know maybe he can work on that but i just don't see him ever having that zip that the top guys all seem to have.

I don't know but to me the Patriots were by a pretty far margin the least impressive team in week 1.
Jets, Jaguars, WFT, Lions, Texans all looked better than the Patriots did week 1 imo.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,837
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
45yo Tom Brady has a much better arm that 23yo Tom Brady too. Yes, the narrative was wrong, in how over the top it was. But look at Brady's passing analytics in his first two years and compare them against his contemporaries. He was not a big armed guy. He became one.
Analytics don't really tell you anything about arm strength, though.
 

Bigdogx

New Member
Jul 21, 2020
163
Analytics don't really tell you anything about arm strength, though.
I agree, Brady would sling it in-between guys and thread needles constantly, yes he worked on his deep ball throughout his career but brady always had decent velocity to his passes imo.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,711
If we had a second year QB with a laser arm but had the results Mac has been getting, while a smart, accurate QB with a weaker to average arm carved us up, we’d be longing for that other guy and saying arm strength sure is nice but it doesn’t help if the guy isn’t accurate and can’t read defenses and makes dumb throws because he is a “gunslinger”.
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
14,924
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
If we had a second year QB with a laser arm but had the results Mac has been getting, while a smart, accurate QB with a weaker to average arm carved us up, we’d be longing for that other guy and saying arm strength sure is nice but it doesn’t help if the guy isn’t accurate and can’t read defenses and makes dumb throws because he is a “gunslinger”.
Would we?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,711
View attachment 55429
View attachment 55428

I'm not entirely sure Mac would feel comfortable making these super bowl winning throws
NCAA championship game....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzfWp-5WxXE&t=182s


0:52 mark. Mac throws to the front left corner of the end zone, to a place where only his guy can get it. Plenty of zip. Not a huge window.
1:19 mark. Mac throws a ball deep right, not too dissimilar to the throw Brady made to Branch in the second photo above.
3:01 mark. Mac slings a dart about 20 yards upfield to a receiver with three guys around him.

A lot of his throws were to pretty open guys, but it's not like ALL he did in the championship game was throw to wide open guys. These are some pretty nice throws I list here. No, he doesn't have Brady's arm. By this point in time (these photos), Brady was in his fourth year in the NFL and was 26 years old. We all remember what he looked like as a rookie.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,837
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
If we had a second year QB with a laser arm but had the results Mac has been getting, while a smart, accurate QB with a weaker to average arm carved us up, we’d be longing for that other guy and saying arm strength sure is nice but it doesn’t help if the guy isn’t accurate and can’t read defenses and makes dumb throws because he is a “gunslinger”.
Why are physical tools equated with being a gunslinger who makes dumb throws? I think people are saying Mac is somewhat limited by his arm strength, not that it prevents him from being a very good QB or it's a fatal flaw. I'd rather have Mac than first/second year Josh Allen, for sure.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,837
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
NCAA championship game....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzfWp-5WxXE&t=182s


0:52 mark. Mac throws to the front left corner of the end zone, to a place where only his guy can get it. Plenty of zip. Not a huge window.
1:19 mark. Mac throws a ball deep right, not too dissimilar to the throw Brady made to Branch in the second photo above.
3:01 mark. Mac slings a dart about 20 yards upfield to a receiver with three guys around him.

A lot of his throws were to pretty open guys, but it's not like ALL he did in the championship game was throw to wide open guys. These are some pretty nice throws I list here. No, he doesn't have Brady's arm. By this point in time (these photos), Brady was in his fourth year in the NFL and was 26 years old. We all remember what he looked like as a rookie.
Man, we have very differing views on this. To me the 1:19 pass took a while to get there, for instance.
 

GB5

New Member
Aug 26, 2013
690
For those who do track completion % I think Mac might drop a bit from last year. I think he is being instructed and especially after trading for Parker to make 3-4 throws per game to a covered deep receiver to see if they can win a 1-1 ball. These are throws he really woukdnt make last year.

The bigger problem is that the Pats played a ton of two WR,two TE groupings on Sunday. They wanted to stretch the ball down the field. The vast majority of the time the WR’s in those sets were Parker and Meyers. Meyers is a possession receiver, and Parker can’t run by anybody. The two best receivers for this set up are Bourne and Agholor..but that’s on the coaching.

Two other random thoughts. I get a sense that about 30 minutes before the game on Sunday we are going to find out it’s going to be Hoyers game.

Also Bourne is going to get himself out of the doghouse in a few weeks, have a couple of solid games, continue his chemistry from last year and then get wheeled at the deadline to GB for a 5th when Thornton comes back.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,758
Man, we have very differing views on this. To me the 1:19 pass took a while to get there, for instance.
Yeah 3:01 where he loads up was the only one I thought had good zip
52 sure only his guy can get it, but that's NFL open and then some and he put it where his guy had to go out at the 1, in the NFL you have a guy that open you need to put a dart on him for the TD.
1:19 took too long for an NFL throw.

Mac has a bad arm for an NFL QB, it's not unplayable, but it's not good and likely never will be. Brady 20 years ago had a better arm, and in particular better compared to the league, in an era with slower defenders.

People aren't saying that you NEED to have a big arm, but rather.... Mac doesn't have one, and that means there are throws and plays he can't make, and mistakes he can't make that other guys get away with. That puts a huge emphasis on him executing at a higher rate than his peers to succeed, and on the coaching staff protecting him/helping him with throws he can make, and play designs that keep teams from cheating off the throws they don't think he can make.

Would I prefer a moron with a cannon... no. But I'd prefer a Herbert who probably makes more mistakes than Mac, but makes so many more plus athleticism/arm plays. And I think that when I look at guys who are pretty good and have plus physical traits I'm a lot more certain that you can win long term with those guys than someone like Mac.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,711
Well there are lots of quarterbacks I would prefer to have over Mac. Too bad none of them are on the patriots. The question really is can Mac be good enough for them to win and or win a championship with?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,642
Well there are lots of quarterbacks I would prefer to have over Mac. Too bad none of them are on the patriots. The question really is can Mac be good enough for them to win and or win a championship with?
That's a great question and I hope we get a chance to find out.

Its ok to acknowledge Jones limitations and it may well be that he succeeds regardless. His arm may be par or below but he also seems pretty advanced in terms of how he runs an offense. The Patriots might build a team around him that maximizes his strengths and allows him to flourish and he may wind up winning a ring or two.

Once again, we are merely acknowledging a fact. What it means in terms of Mac and the Patriots respective ceilings is an open question.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,317
Also sort of important to note that Mac had the advantage of 20 years worth of training knowledge and focus on weightlifting and conditioning that Brady didn’t have early in his career, and it seems like both have undergone a bunch of changes lately.
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
14,924
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
I'm curious on the responses, which starting QB would you NOT trade Mac for right now?

My list:
  • Dan Jones
  • Marcus Mariota
  • Mitch Trubisky
  • Zach Wilson
  • Tua Tagovailoa
  • Carson Wentz

That's about it for me.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,837
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
I'm curious on the responses, which starting QB would you NOT trade Mac for right now?

My list:
  • Dan Jones
  • Marcus Mariota
  • Mitch Trubisky
  • Zach Wilson
  • Tua Tagovailoa
  • Carson Wentz

That's about it for me.
Justin Fields and Trey Lance are there for me, so are Tannehill, Derek Carr, Baker Mayfield, Jameis, Jalen Hurts, Geno Smith, Davis Mills, Jared Goff. Honestly this list encompasses both long and short term. Guess I'd take Tannehill and Carr over Mac for a "win it right now" type of season.
 

Tim Salmon

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,305
I'm curious on the responses, which starting QB would you NOT trade Mac for right now?

My list:
  • Dan Jones
  • Marcus Mariota
  • Mitch Trubisky
  • Zach Wilson
  • Tua Tagovailoa
  • Carson Wentz

That's about it for me.
I'd add Baker Mayfield, Jared Goff, Geno Smith, Trey Lance, Jalen Hurts, Jameis Winston, and (maybe) Ryan Tannehill.
 

E5 Yaz

polka king
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,575
Oregon
I'm curious on the responses, which starting QB would you NOT trade Mac for right now?

My list:
  • Dan Jones
  • Marcus Mariota
  • Mitch Trubisky
  • Zach Wilson
  • Tua Tagovailoa
  • Carson Wentz

That's about it for me.
Deshaun Watson
 

jablo1312

New Member
Sep 20, 2005
983
Without a doubt, i have seen more floater wtf is that type passes from Jones already in 1 season and a game, then 20+ years of watching Brady.

I don't know maybe he can work on that but i just don't see him ever having that zip that the top guys all seem to have.

I don't know but to me the Patriots were by a pretty far margin the least impressive team in week 1.
Jets, Jaguars, WFT, Lions, Texans all looked better than the Patriots did week 1 imo.
chuck and duck tom was definitely a thing, especially when he got frustrated with the offensive line. But yea his arm strength was never really in question there.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,942
Dallas
One thing we noted on the rewatch (mentioned in Game Goat thread watched it and btw All-22 is a lot better this year - still recommend using an international VPN and gamepass though) that I didn’t mention (covered he still has post-snap processing issues and issues with timing and anticipation as well as velocity) was Mac’s mechanics are still a work in progress. His hips can get too wide, he doesn’t rotate fully through, he is still throwing off the back foot, his plant foot wasn’t always pointing in the right direction when he had time etc. It explains why some of his throws are floating and dying a little early. I hope Mark Schofield or someone (after a few more games) compares his mechanics this year vs last. I think he corrected the happy feet issue and the arm slot? So I believe we’re seeing improvement but more work needed. Curious what you all thought. QB mechanics are definitely not my forte. I prefer watching dancing fat men in a line (OL 4 life).