Very hard not to like OPS numbers that start with freaking 9s. I’ll do a quick google search, but I’m surmising those home park factors imply heavy run suppression, not promotion?
The Newest Vaughn
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
- Start date
Exactly. The AAA Gwinnett Braves play at Coolray Field, one of the hardest International League Park for hitters according to Baseball America.
Grissom hit:
AVG:.350
OBP:.449
SLG:.550
OPS:.999
with 21 doubles in 57 games and 220 ABs away from Coolray Field.
[/QUOTE]
Grissom hit:
AVG:.350
OBP:.449
SLG:.550
OPS:.999
with 21 doubles in 57 games and 220 ABs away from Coolray Field.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for confirming, and for added detail @picniclightning. Seems he came by those numbers honestly.
There is some really interesting offensive upside in the outfield alone between Abreu and Duran and Tyler. He looks add more ability to punish baseballs to the infield as well.
I imagine he’ll be a net positive in ‘24 over the combined production at 2B in ‘23- both offensive and defensively. Story should be better (gulp!) than combined SS ‘23 production. Those were the biggest holes on both sides of the plate so generally a big gain there.
From this morning on Masslive:
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/01/mlb-notebook-explaining-my-hof-ballot-ron-washington-on-vaughn-grissom-mcadam.html
Most of the article is about Sean McAdam's HoF ballot, but at the end, he has some interesting insight from Ron Washington on Grissom's defensive ability. There's more to the article than jsut the two quotes snipped below, but Washington is a believer. Bottom line is that Washington believes that Grisson didn't really get the chance/opportunity that he needed at SS/2B at the major-league level since the Braves were in the playoff hunt last year and couldn't afford to give an infielder a chance to learn in-season.
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/01/mlb-notebook-explaining-my-hof-ballot-ron-washington-on-vaughn-grissom-mcadam.html
Most of the article is about Sean McAdam's HoF ballot, but at the end, he has some interesting insight from Ron Washington on Grissom's defensive ability. There's more to the article than jsut the two quotes snipped below, but Washington is a believer. Bottom line is that Washington believes that Grisson didn't really get the chance/opportunity that he needed at SS/2B at the major-league level since the Braves were in the playoff hunt last year and couldn't afford to give an infielder a chance to learn in-season.
I'm digging the Billy Collins/Lolita reference.
I think "the sophomore slump" is always interesting to consider. You get guys who are hot on call-up, the book gets written, and then they adjust. Sometimes that sticks, sometimes that does not. Casas and Dalbec both fit the pattern. Duran was a bit more up and down, but he revamped his swing and approach quite a bit.
Grissom has 200 some ML ABs - a hot call up, and a colder second go.
I don't have time to do more than eyeball it at the moment, but I think it would be interesting to do some comparisons to try to align our expectations here.
How much time/how many ABs would we consider reasonable for a slow start from Grissom?
(Maybe Abreu goes through the adjustment slump early next year?)
View: https://twitter.com/maccerullo/status/1743386491160568059?s=46&t=Tl7uNH0-pxEyJtNj1BktDA
Tweet from Mac Cerullo of the Herald:
Vaughn Grissom says he used to play against Triston Casas growing up and they've kept in touch over the years. Says Casas was among the first to reach out after he was traded.
Tweet from Mac Cerullo of the Herald:
Vaughn Grissom says he used to play against Triston Casas growing up and they've kept in touch over the years. Says Casas was among the first to reach out after he was traded.
Nice to know that Grissom will have a familiar face to partner up with. It will also be interesting to see how well they might work together defensively while manning the right side of the infield.
I don't agree with you a lot, but I am right there with you on Houses. Love the guy.
Interesting article on Fangraphs on how different hitters profile in Fenway. The writer thinks Grissom is a good fit given his good contact skills and batter ball profile although he does hit too many ground balls at this point. He thinks Tyler O’Neal is a less clean fit.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/wall-ball-for-all-examining-the-new-righty-red-sox/
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/wall-ball-for-all-examining-the-new-righty-red-sox/
Unless Kelenic’s hitting profile is a better fit for the Braves. Not all OPSes are created the same. Kelenic has much better raw power, and the Braves need that.
Valdez is Jr. Strangeglove. But he can rake.
As a SS he lacks agility/lateral quickness. Part of that is his physique. But he should be fine moving down the defensive spectrum. As Pedroia demonstrated to us all, you can get a lot of mileage out of feel for a position. He was great at positioning and understanding where he needed to be. I doubt Grissom ever develops that sort of feel for the position, but they should probably hire him to coach up Grissom.
Yes, Valdez is a DH. He could do that here at low cost if Yoshida is moved.
I would love to hear about Pedroia doing some work with Grissom, including some fielding practice on his knees. Brian Butterfield may be looking for work, but he got dropped for being anti-vax by the Mets in 2022 according to a reference on wikipedia.
They sure moved a lot of pieces around, taking on a bunch of salary in order to acquire Kelenic, so he must be a piece they really wanted over Grissom. .656 OPS, though, and a bunch of tools — including a knack for injuring himself. Lefty against Grissom’s Righty bat, and as you said, flashes legit power. I would have thought they had enough of that with Acuna and their Corner IF, but I’m not paid to make these judgments.
For all the comments about Valdez' ability with the bat (and they're probably very well founded), for some context.
Valdez
22 at A+ had a 119 wRC+ (Grissom had a 146 at age 21)
22 at his first shot at AA it was 130 (Grissom was 147).
At 23 in his second shot at AA Valdez was 178 (Grissom at the end of his 22 season put up a 121 wRC+ in Atlanta)
At 23 and 24 in AAA Valdez put up 92 and 118 (Grissom at 22, in a park geared toward pitchers, put up a 135).
This isn't necessarily to try and complain about Valdez. It's more just to say that I don't think people are paying enough attention to how dominant of an offensive force Grissom has been at every level of the minors, and being very young for the league at every stop of the way.
He is very good, and we should be very excited to have him.
Valdez
22 at A+ had a 119 wRC+ (Grissom had a 146 at age 21)
22 at his first shot at AA it was 130 (Grissom was 147).
At 23 in his second shot at AA Valdez was 178 (Grissom at the end of his 22 season put up a 121 wRC+ in Atlanta)
At 23 and 24 in AAA Valdez put up 92 and 118 (Grissom at 22, in a park geared toward pitchers, put up a 135).
This isn't necessarily to try and complain about Valdez. It's more just to say that I don't think people are paying enough attention to how dominant of an offensive force Grissom has been at every level of the minors, and being very young for the league at every stop of the way.
He is very good, and we should be very excited to have him.
He has as much offensive upside as anyone in the organization not named Devers, Casas, and Anthony. He’s been a dominant contact and approach player at incredible ages despite a truly unfair and rushed development path.
It was a fantastic baseball move to acquire a blocked player of his ceiling at a position of need for an aging and unreliable pitcher.
You can also do it this way (by wRC+):
A+ ball: 119, Valdez, age 22. (note: delay year due to 2020.)
A+ ball: 195, Grissom, age 20
A+ ball: 146, Grissom, age 21
AA ball: 130, Valdez, age 22.
AA ball: 178, Valdez, age 23.
AA ball: 147, Grissom, age 21.
AAA ball: 118, Valdez, age 23.
AAA ball: 98, Valdez, age 23.
AAA ball: 118, Valdez, age 24.
AAA ball: 135, Grissom, age 22.
MLB: 102, Valdez, age 24.
MLB: 121, Grissom, age 21.
MLB: 78, Grissom, age 22.
Exactly. It makes me curious about what he might be able to find in a blocked RHH OF out there. Grissom was just someone I've liked for a long time, so that's why I started throwing him out there around the trade deadline when there were talks of Paxton or Duvall going to Atlanta. Not that I actually thought you'd be able to get Grissom for half a season of those two, but luckily you could for a full season of Sale. Thank goodness the White Sox continue to be the White Sox and weren't willing to engage on a deal of Cease for Grissom with Atlanta. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/01/dylan-cease-trade-rumors-yankees-braves-red-sox-white-sox.html
That's a more nicely formatted version of what I was trying to say @Rovin Romine, exactly.
Another fun one:
AA: Casas 142 at 21
AA: Grissom 147 at 21
AAA: Casas 127 at 22
AAA: Grissom 135 at 22
MLB: Casas 120 at 22
MLB: Grissom 121 at 21
Obviously the big difference is what Casas did last year at MLB (129 at 23) vs Grissom (78 at 22). However, when you look at Casas' April (59) it was about the same sample size as Grissom's entire season in MLB.
Point being - just like Casas - what he did in his first exposure to MLB pitching at least showed that his talent level is good enough that MLB pitchers had to adjust to him. That doesn't often happen. Casas was able to adjust to the adjustment. Grissom we don't know if he will or not yet.
But if you look at literally every level, he shows the same manner of offensive upside - he just gets there in a different way.
Sure, it’s probably been mentioned elsewhere (and I brought it up in the lineup thread), but…
He has no platoon split to speak of.
In AA he had an .899 OPS vs RHP and .776 vs LHP.
In AAA it was .908 vs RHP and .831 vs LHP.
R/L splits were easier to see on BBRef for minor leagues; thus using wRC+ in one and OPS in the other. So there is no real reason to be concerned about that facet of his game.
I admit to falling trap to age advancement and scouting the box score, and I’ll fully say that. But for me (and this is just for me) I’d actually call Grissom our #1 positional prospect (though it’s REALLY CLOSE with Anthony for me) and, fwiw, Fitts our #1 SP prospect.
Though I also don’t get too excited about prospects until they demonstrate an ability to handle AA in some capacity. I tend to think the jump from A+ to AA is the 2nd highest degree of difficulty (to AAA to MLB). It’s also why I think more and more teams are making the AA to MLB jump. Many of these guys are too good for AAA and its almost better to have them struggle a little to try and force the adjustments.
The flameout rate of complex league and rookie ball league all stars that just can’t handle A+ or AA at all always makes me favor those that handle AA (especially at good numbers on the age advancement scale (or the vast difference between Grissom in AAA at 22 vs however old Dalbec was last season).
One I think will be very good in MLB, the other is almost assuredly AAAA level.
Bobby Dalbec turned 28 last season, a fact that keeps amazing me no matter how many times I remember it. He is born the same year as Randy Arozarena, Christian Arroyo and Dylan Cease.
I too am really enjoying the Grissom hype. At the moment, seeing his development is my biggest anticipation of the year.
Yeah, that’s awesome. Especially since PeteAbe makes it seem like it was unsolicited, which makes Story’s excitement even more impressive
I love the kid, was shocked at such a premium return for Sale. With all the usual caveats about risk, it was a very bold move with crazy upside.. So different from the past few years.
I think Breslow coming on board is really the reason my hope stays alive for more boldness and creativity.
I’ve said this before but Grissom has to be given some context defensively.
He isn’t a short stop. He doesn’t have the range or fluidity for the position.
But, the first time he ever played meaningful innings at second base was at the major league level at 22 years old. It is impossible to describe how nuts that is. His defensive numbers were horrible because of course they were. He was placed in an impossible situation and he’s not a naturally gifted defender.
He also has never been in a position where he was told “you are a second baseman.” He has ping pong’d around due to the current major league make up of the Braves.
I think given his athleticism, work ethic, and clear cut approach, there is very little reason he can’t be a major league second baseman.
Because of his weird path, he lost his prospect status. If it wasn’t for that, I think he’d be a top 50 prospect, top 3 in our system, and people would be WAY more excited about him.
It's a less demanding position in terms of the number of chances, and the length of throws.
It's also why you don't see a lot of second basemen transition to SS. Take Pedroia. We suffered through Julio Lugo, Nick Green, (then Marco Scutaro, who was OK), Mike Aviles, and an excellent Stephen Drew before Xander came up.
I certainly wouldn’t say “plus” but generally I do tend to think of guys being able to move down the line defensively at a “similar” position and being better in a less demanding role.
I don’t think that means Grissom could move to CF, for instance, but SS to 2b; 3b to 1b; CF to LF tend to be an “upgrade.” In terms of Grissom specifically, all scouting reports we’ve seen posted talk about him being questionable at SS (he can’t stick there) but ranging between “fine” to “above average” at 2b.
Ron Washington - considered one of the better infield instructors in the game - also has said he thinks he’d be a very good 2b. The Braves just happen to have the best 2b in the game.
Couldn't disagree more. Caveat: I was a 2B most of my playing years. If you think 2B is less demanding than SS, you haven't played significant time at both positions. Maybe you were spoiled by Pedroia but 2B has much more complexity than meets the eye.
Sure, SS requires longer throws, maybe more range for the really good ones. But the technical aspects of 2B are underrated. You have to be in position to take multiple different cutoffs, cover the bag in most situations, backup the 1B on bunts down the 3B line with no runners, make the DP pivot, etc.
IMO, 2B is second only to catcher in defensive importance.
Almost always, the best defensive infielder (assuming RH throw) is placed at shortstop in youth baseball. Often those players are very athletic/skilled but some do not have a strong enough arm or enough range to stick at shortstop. Those players are often considered likely to play well at 2B since the throws are typically shorter and the required range is less.
Yes, but in this instance, the concerns about Grissom do not seem related to his throwing arm.
You're not wrong, the biggest concerns seem to be range and fluidity from all I've read. Second base is just a different animal than shortstop in more ways than arm strength, and I say that with no judgement on the importance of either. Either way, we have a shortstop, so hopefully we'll never have to find out his limitations there. There are never any guarantees, but after last year's black hole at second, I'm pretty psyched to be able to look forward to seeing what we have here.
I think the biggest concern with Grissom is his lack of experience at 2B, related to his being put there straight from low-A ball to MLB as a young player. But, his arm strength is, at best, not a strength at SS, where his throws averaged 83.6 mph, which is below league average.
For what it is worth, he had one error at AAA playing 2B last year over 250+ innings and 9 errors in AAA at SS over 615 innings. Overall, in the minors for his career, he has 3 errors in 202 chances at second (.985 fielding percentage) and 42 errors in 872 chances at short (.952 fielding percentage). I'm having a hard time finding more advanced stats for his fielding in the minors.
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I didn't mean to downplay 2B.
Just curious, but do we have examples of dedicated 2Bmen shifting to SS?
Do you have any concerns about his frame? He’s listed at 6’2” and 210 lbs. which seems a bigger body for a 2bman, and if range and fluidity are the concerns, I’m not sure how moving across the middle infield addresses them.
Honestly, a little, but not much. My concerns are more general as he goes into his first full year as major-leaguer. Never any guarantees. And even more honestly, I'd have to learn a lot more about the kid to have anything resembling an opinion I'd be willing to hang my hat on, other than saying he's absolutely no sure thing, but there's promise, and I'm glad I'll get a chance to see it unfold.
Of course as I've said before, after what we saw last year at the position, it wouldn't have taken much for me to be happy that they did just about anything to address it.
Since Grissom has been told since the trade that he's penciled in as the Red Sox second baseman, and spent time with Story and other Red Sox middle infielders earlier this month, I would expect that he's working vigilantly on his 2B skills and will continue to do so through spring training. That, hopefully, is a great runway to play a competent second base in the major leagues this season.
If you wanna get incredibly bullish. Read the bottom of this article
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/mlb-notebook-eight-questions-as-the-red-sox-open-spring-training.html
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/mlb-notebook-eight-questions-as-the-red-sox-open-spring-training.html
Here's a fun little tidbit about some family connections between Grissom and Casas. Nothing super deep, but perhaps just enough to add to the enjoyment of watching these two grow as teammates. It's also cool for Grissom to find some sort of bond with another young guy as he comes to a new team.
https://www.mlb.com/video/grissom-on-family-connections-with-tristan-casas
https://www.mlb.com/video/grissom-on-family-connections-with-tristan-casas
And to add a little to the Newest Vaughhn story ... "At age 21 and seven months, Grissom became the youngest player in either the American League or National League history to homer and steal a base in his major league debut." (At Fenway Park no less).