The Don Mattingly of Foxboro

RSN Diaspora

RSN Diaspora

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Preacher said:
I’m disappointed they didn’t get a Super Bowl for Moss and Seau and I’m sure a lot of the other guys who missed out in those in between years.
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MuppetAsteriskTalk said:
Logan Mankins is the guy that bums me out. Played for the Pats for 9 years in the middle of the dynasty and somehow came away without a SB victory. I know some people think he came up small in the some big games, but he was practically playing on one leg. Tough as nails.
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This exchange in the Apple TV Dynasty thread had me thinking about the Patriots we will always lament not getting a championship. If you ask most Yankees fans who they would have wanted most to get one ring, I have to believe they'd answer with Don Mattingly. If you had asked me prior to this thread, I would have answered Moss in spite of his short tenure with the team--he was such a transformational player and came so close in his one and only shot. But the argument for Mankins seems at least as strong, not because of comparable skill but because of his tenure with the Pats. The more I think about it, though, Wes Welker is definitely in the conversation--he still holds the team record for all-time receptions and is third in total receiving yards. He's gotten something of a bum rap because of the pass he didn't catch in the 2011 Super Bowl, but it wasn't as clean a pass as people remember and there were a variety of other factors that led to the loss.

Maybe an honorable mention for Laurence Maroney, but I'm not sure who else I would consider here.
 
tims4wins

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The reason it's hard to name Welker is because if he catches the pass... he has a ring. It was more under his control than some of the other guys who didn't get a ring.
 
ilol@u

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Wes Welker was 0-3 in the Superbowl, correct? He lost against the Legion of Boom when with Denver/Peyton Manning?

Same thing with Moss: 0-2 in the Superbowl, lost the Superbowl with Kaepernick playing for the SF 49ers in 2013.

IMO: Randy Moss was the one that disappoints the most. Top 15 greatest NFL player in history, and just didn't get a championship.
 
Jed Zeppelin

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Mankins is my easy answer given the degree to which it shocked me to realize he never got one. With an intact ACL maybe the line holds up just enough.

Welker I still hold the grudge and don’t really care. He also dropped a critical pass the next year against Baltimore that pretty much initiated the Ravens comeback. Yuking it up before the awful Jets loss as well. Lots of bad Welker vibes. Unfair, maybe, but it is what it is. I’d wish for more titles for someone like Vince before caring about Welker not getting one.
 
RSN Diaspora

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Oil Can Dan said:
But it was a really crappy pass.
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Not only that, but on the very next play Brady threw what looked like a catchable pass to Aaron Hernandez that went incomplete.

Yes, Welker should've caught that pass. But if he misses that on a drive in the second quarter that would've led to the same number of points, we aren't having this conversation.
 
Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Eh Mankins held out one year for 10 games and they kept winning without him so it's tough for me to say he was the most deserving. He was also the single biggest reason they lost on Black Sunday, he played the worst game of his career in the biggest game of his life and to me that's enough to not wish him a ring.
 
ShaneTrot

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Welker is in my top 5 Patriots of all time. I loved the guy. He was ridiculously productive and tough. He had 18 catches in the two Super Bowls he played with NE. It saddens me he doesn't get more love from Pats fans.
 
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NextBigThing8184

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As mentioned, Mankins had his worst games in the playoffs and if he plays to his regular season level in SB42 they probably win. Once Neal went down, they needed the rest of the OL to hold up and Mankins played really poorly. He’s a borderline HOF talent IMO but his propensity for stupid penalties in big moments, being a turnstile in SB42, not playing great in SB46, the holdout…don’t care about him not winning one

Welker, yes a tough catch but one that he makes 95% of the time. And (again as mentioned) the drop vs the Ravens and his general demeanor make me also not care about him winning one.

Both great players. Both among their generations best at their positions (Welker as slot WR), but both came up small in moments where the team needed them to live up to their well deserved reputations as greats.

My vote would be for 2007 Moss. Would have loved to see his performance that season pay off with a ring. Not a fan of how things ended with him but the 2007 Brady/Moss connection was so incredible it’s a shame it didn’t end with a title

Would have liked to see Mayo get one where he was actually part of the Super Bowl. He technically got one but he gets overlooked sometimes (maybe less now because of the coaching aspect) as a Patriots great because he didn’t actually play in a Super Bowl win.
 
Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt

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ShaneTrot said:
Welker is in my top 5 Patriots of all time. I loved the guy. He was ridiculously productive and tough. He had 18 catches in the two Super Bowls he played with NE. It saddens me he doesn't get more love from Pats fans.
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Welker was a top 10 WEAPON in the NFL during his time with the Patriots. He was ludicrously productive. The lack of respect from any corner of Patriots Nation is fucking ridiculous, regardless of that one pass.
 
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NextBigThing8184

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ShaneTrot said:
Welker is in my top 5 Patriots of all time. I loved the guy. He was ridiculously productive and tough. He had 18 catches in the two Super Bowls he played with NE. It saddens me he doesn't get more love from Pats fans.
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When you win 6 super bowls in 20 years, there are tons of guys who get remembered because of post season heroics which means some guys who didn’t contribute to a title will get remembered less fondly (even more so when they had a chance to win one and blew it)

Welker was a better WR than Edelman and Amendola, better at his position than Malcolm Butler, arguably better (or equal) than/to Vrabel and Hightower etc but a lack of a ring will always reduce the amount of fondness people have for him. There isn’t “the” play to remember him by. I watched every game of Welker’s Pats career and the first three plays which come to mind are the drop vs the Giants, drop vs the Ravens and the 99 yard TD in a fairly meaningless moment. I’m sure he had plenty of big plays, but they aren’t easily remembered because they weren’t “the” play.
 
Was (Not Wasdin)

Was (Not Wasdin)

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John Hannah:

-All time great; multiple first team All Pro
-Played his entire career with the Pats
-Key guy in the 1978 offense, one of the greatest rushing attacks of all time
-Played on a number of good teams that ran into shite luck (Ben Dreith, the Chuck Fairbanks Fiasco, the 1985 Bears)
 
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NextBigThing8184

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Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
Welker was a top 10 WEAPON in the NFL during his time with the Patriots. He was ludicrously productive. The lack of respect from any corner of Patriots Nation is fucking ridiculous, regardless of that one pass.
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I don’t think anyone would argue that he wasn’t an incredibly productive weapon while with New England. His lack of “respect” seems mostly centered around topics of “who deserved it”, “who should be in the Pats HOF” or “who was your favorite” etc
 
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NextBigThing8184

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Was (Not Wasdin) said:
John Hannah:

-All time great; multiple first team All Pro
-Played his entire career with the Pats
-Key guy in the 1978 offense, one of the greatest rushing attacks of all time
-Played on a number of good teams that ran into shite luck (Ben Dreith, the Chuck Fairbanks Fiasco, the 1985 Bears)
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Good one, Tippett too. Along the same lines but obviously lesser, would have been cool to see Coates win one with the Pats
 
Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt

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NextBigThing8184 said:
I don’t think anyone would argue that he wasn’t an incredibly productive weapon while with New England. His lack of “respect” seems mostly centered around topics of “who deserved it”, “who should be in the Pats HOF” or “who was your favorite” etc
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Yes, I agree - in this thread. I guess it just sparked something in me b/c there is, generally speaking, a good deal of underplaying how phenomenal he was during his time in New England.
 
RSN Diaspora

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NextBigThing8184 said:
Good one, Tippett too. Along the same lines but obviously lesser, would have been cool to see Coates win one with the Pats
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EL Jeffe said:
Ben Coates, Stanley Morgan and Andre Tippett for me
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Ale Xander said:
Tippett is my vote.
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Tippett was my favorite player as a kid (I have a Tippett jersey), but I left him out because unless anyone really thought we had a chance against the Bears in 1985, he predated anything resembling competence in this franchise. The reason I drew the Don Mattingly comparison is because he played entirely within an uncharacteristically bad stretch for baseball's dominant franchise which was both preceded and succeeded by a lot of success. Inasmuch as the Pats had some good seasons pre-2001, the Snow Bowl is one of only four playoff wins they had in Foxboro, so I have a harder time considering players prior to the 2001-02 season.
 
MuppetAsteriskTalk

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When I first mentioned Mankins in the other thread, I was only considering those shut out during the dynasty. If this is open to anybody, then Russ Francis and Tim Fox.
 
gtmtnbiker

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Was (Not Wasdin) said:
John Hannah:

-All time great; multiple first team All Pro
-Played his entire career with the Pats
-Key guy in the 1978 offense, one of the greatest rushing attacks of all time
-Played on a number of good teams that ran into shite luck (Ben Dreith, the Chuck Fairbanks Fiasco, the 1985 Bears)
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Winner. The second best player in franchise history, and universally acknowledged as being on the short list of the best players in league history at his position. Moss, Welker, and Tippet definitely on my list as well.
 
rodderick

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tims4wins said:
The reason it's hard to name Welker is because if he catches the pass... he has a ring. It was more under his control than some of the other guys who didn't get a ring.
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Then Mankins shouldn't ever belong in the conversation considering he was the worst player on the field in both Super Bowls he played in. Welker was their best offensive player in XLII at least.
 
The Social Chair

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Moss is my favorite player ever. I'll never get over 2007.

Funny trivia, Bill O' Brien spent 8 years with Saban and Belichick and has zero championship rings.
 
NJ_Sox_Fan

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Moss for me is the one I feel bad about. Honestly, even though it doesn’t make sense, I’d probably give up 2 other SB wins to have that 19-0 SB.
 
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