2023-24 Celtics

Mystic Merlin

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I don't think a lot of people in the national media realize how much better BOS is today than they were last year or 2022. I mean they basically traded 2 average-to-good starters for 2 All-NBA-ish guys and as an added bonus, got to give an All-Star caliber player better usage, all for the price of two bench players.

I mean going from Smart and Horford to Jrue and KP is a super huge upgrade, while at the same time, I don't see any drop-off going from Brogdon/TL/GW to Horford / Hauser / PP.

Not to the mention the fact that JT and JB are better versions of themselves.

Talent wins (pleasestayhealthy). BOS has way more talent than they did last year.
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Yep. They’ve got Lakers segments to pivot to, can you blame them!

Plus, I think there is some degree of self-aware posturing among those observers who do appreciate that this is a markedly better team than prior iterations - what else can they say that’ll generate engagement? It’s provocative to say ‘they haven’t proven anything until they host the trophy, and you gotta wonder if they have what it takes’; it isn’t provocative to say ‘they’re the best team and should win absent injuries.’ Throw in some ‘is he alpha enough’ talk about Tatum and you’re cooking.
 
lovegtm

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InstaFace said:
They could at least come up with increasingly-creative ways to criticize Mazzulla. We're running out of ammo around here.
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Maybe I should go the other hyperbolic direction and up the ante: I think Mazzulla is currently a top-3 coach in the league, and the hate toward him from Boston fans has a very "no prophet is accepted in his hometown" vibe, with him being a New Englander.
 
InstaFace

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We can take it up in the Mazzulla thread, but I frankly have little idea how to disentangle his impact on winning / mentality / tactics from the contributions of his boss, or the fact that our roster is a buzzsaw that would probably make a potted plant look like a good coach (hey, first so no harm, right? At least it's not a waste of oxygen!"). With Stevens, he had some signature Xs and Os moments like with ATO plays, and visibly coached rings around some playoff opponents. I have very little to complain about with Mazzulla, of course, but do we have evidence he's actually adding value, beyond the (if we're fair) value of "just don't screw things up / let drama keep building among the guys"?

Spoelstra and Pop have a long and storied history. But through what signals are you judging CJM better than Finch, Nurse, Snyder, or God help us, Udoka?
 
PedroKsBambino

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The adjustments—at both ends—are frequent and effective. The talent is Stevens but shaping the bench rules and those schematic adjustments are Joe.

he’s also kept them focused and motivated.

I wasn’t sure in CJM last year and still believe his errors cost them Miami series. But this year, his system and assistants, they are really good and so is he
 
SemperFidelisSox

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There are two main talking points with the national media when it comes to their skepticism about the Celtics. The health of Porzingis in the playoffs, and the failures of the last few years. Colin Cowherd compared them to the Bills and Jazz. Good but never good enough. A lot of the talking heads on the ESPN shows are Knicks fans and push the Porzingis part of it.
 
lovegtm

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InstaFace said:
Spoelstra and Pop have a long and storied history. But through what signals are you judging CJM better than Finch, Nurse, Snyder, or God help us, Udoka?
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Getting a team with very good NBA players to win a lot of games is something most coaches can do, agree.

Joe is really, really good at keeping the team focused at playing the right way, particularly on offense. I sometimes think offense is the harder end to stay focused on, because defense is effort, but offense is relentless execution in the face of fatigue, teams adjusting to you, the long season, etc.

His pacing of the season has been masterful as well: the team is slowly peaking and learning how to play together, while not shooting their load prematurely.

He has put in really effective schemes on both ends that maximize the players' talents. It sounds easy for me to say "Tatum has offensive gravity", but it's a harder gravity to unlock and use than Steph's. Joe has the guys really working specific matchups using a number of sets they now know like the back of their hands. The marriage of scheme and execution on offense has been gorgeous.

These are a lot of subtle things that really add up to a lot, particularly on a good team. It reminds me a lot of Kerr's impact on the already-talented Warriors.
 
lovegtm

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SemperFidelisSox said:
There are two main talking points with the national media when it comes to their skepticism about the Celtics. The health of Porzingis in the playoffs, and the failures of the last few years. Colin Cowherd compared them to the Bills and Jazz. Good but never good enough. A lot of the talking heads on the ESPN shows are Knicks fans and push the Porzingis part of it.
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Honestly, KP could (god forbid) get hurt, and the Cs might still make it out of the East. The remaining 4 All-Stars are that good, and Tillman really gives a defensive C option off the bench.
 
Jimbodandy

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SemperFidelisSox said:
There are two main talking points with the national media when it comes to their skepticism about the Celtics. The health of Porzingis in the playoffs, and the failures of the last few years. Colin Cowherd compared them to the Bills and Jazz. Good but never good enough. A lot of the talking heads on the ESPN shows are Knicks fans and push the Porzingis part of it.
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Colin Cowherd might lose to a Revere Beach seagull in chess. Anyone caring what he thinks is probably getting points from the seagull too (not that you are).

I couldn't honestly care less about how these narratives simmer and bake in the hoop "intelligentsia" in 2024. It's stacked with groupthink and sycophants, evidenced any time a Knicks team wins five in a row or Anthony Davis goes a whole month without spraining his grundle.
 
Mooch

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The Nuggets blew a 22 point lead last night at home to the Suns, playing without Booker.

Losses like last night happen to the best teams sometimes.
 
DeadlySplitter

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Not quite right - Denver was down 22, forced OT, then was promptly blown out in the OT.

I think the overall point stands though - it’s very much the dog days of the regular season. Tomorrow’s Finals preview though just got that much more interesting with both teams coming off losses.
 
Mooch

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DeadlySplitter said:
Not quite right - Denver was down 22, forced OT, then was promptly blown out in the OT.

I think the overall point stands though - it’s very much the dog days of the regular season. Tomorrow’s Finals preview though just got that much more interesting with both teams coming off losses.
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Sorry, must have misread the summary. My bad.
 
benhogan

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Hopefully, the Celtics pound opponents by double digits in the playoffs and all this is moot.
BUT the Celtic's elite offense sure makes it hard on themselves in late/tight situations.

The old saw that your best player goes ISO & takes the last shot goes out the window when you have 4 efficient offensive players around your star. Rob Williams & Marcus Smart are gone and replaced with one of the best post scorers (KP) & 3pt shooters (Jrue) in the game.

This is like a broken record since this has been mentioned numerous times this season:
Joe needs to run a KP 2-man game in late/tight OR
Tatum needs to start earlier, move the ball when he gets doubled, & stop hunting for his pull-up fadeaway.

1. Porzingis in the post
Porzingis posts up 3.1 times per game, placing him 8th in the entire league. It’s the efficiency that stands out: his 1.40 points per possession leads all players averaging at least one post-up. Elite efficiency and high frequency add up to 4.3 points per game in the post, a mark eclipsed only by Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokic, and Anthony Davis.

https://theswishtheory.com/nba/2024/02/kristaps-porzingis-post-up-excellence/

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/kristaps-porzingis-best-post-player-celtics-championship/edeb6f8b1339c5185c4d4416

2. JT taking pull-up fadeawys against double coverage with 2 seconds left, down 1 is sub-optimal for numerous reasons.
(a) Pull-Up Jumper 34% FG.
(b) Tatum is significantly worse from the right side of the floor (30% on mid-range/25% from 3).
(c) Fadeaways rarely draw fouls
(d) Put back rebounds go out the window when he waits too late

https://3stepsbasket.com/player/jayson-tatum/shooting
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/shots-dash
 
jezza1918

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Mooch said:
Sorry, must have misread the summary. My bad.
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It's worth noting though that while the Celts blown lead was obviously worse, here you've got two of the favorites in the West in a big matchup and the Suns scored there 94th point with 9:43 remaining, and then proceeded to score all of 5 points in the next NINE minutes before Durant hit a 3 to tie it with about 30 seconds left. And then in OT, the defending champs and odds on favorite to win the West put up FIVE points in OT at home. That doesnt somehow absolve the Celtics of brutal execution in the 4th last night. But until it becomes a pattern with THIS YEARS celtics team, Im happy to chalk it up to "sh*t happens."
 
lovegtm

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Mooch said:
The Nuggets blew a 22 point lead last night at home to the Suns, playing without Booker.

Losses like last night happen to the best teams sometimes.
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It's a good reminder of what happens when you let focus lapse for a bit in the NBA. Guys are good.

This team has been better than its peers and its old iterations at avoiding that stuff, but every so often...
 
Seabass

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The Cavs didn't miss a field goal attempt from 9:47-0:19 of the fourth quarter. When 100% percentile things happen, you lose games. Not thrilled that they lost, but I'm sure Mazz will be able to use that 4th quarter in a lesson plan or two down the stretch.
 
wade boggs chicken dinner

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lovegtm said:
It's a good reminder of what happens when you let focus lapse for a bit in the NBA. Guys are good.

This team has been better than its peers and its old iterations at avoiding that stuff, but every so often...
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I'll also point out that it's a lot easier to let one's focus lapse when the other team is missing its two best players.

I only saw the end of the 4Q but I was wondering if the Cs defense decided to channel their inner Draymond against Dean Wade. My gosh, he was really open for a NBA game on multiple occasions.
 
lovegtm

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
I'll also point out that it's a lot easier to let one's focus lapse when the other team is missing its two best players.

I only saw the end of the 4Q but I was wondering if the Cs defense decided to channel their inner Draymond against Dean Wade. My gosh, he was really open for a NBA game on multiple occasions.
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This sounds like cope, but it's also almost comforting to see that not every game is "play ok, step on the gas in the 3rd, win by 15-25." There might be some value in not having a 20 game winning streak that becomes a thing before the playoffs even start.
 
lovegtm

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RorschachsMask said:
It’s dumb reactionary shit lol. They’ve been incredible in crunch time this season, last night doesn’t matter.
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This team is really fun to watch and really tiring to read/listen about (both pro and contra Celtics).

I sometimes wish I could go live in a hole and just watch the games with no outside noise, because they're fun af. But who am I kidding.....
 
BigSoxFan

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lovegtm said:
This sounds like cope, but it's also almost comforting to see that not every game is "play ok, step on the gas in the 3rd, win by 15-25." There might be some value in not having a 20 game winning streak that becomes a thing before the playoffs even start.
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Yup. There’s also value in reinforcement of what they need to do to close teams out. Aside from injuries, I’m most worried about the mental stuff for the playoffs. They are the clear #1 team. The Jay’s have some baggage of being tantalizingly close to a title for several years. The media will play up the inevitability of a Celtics title.

These playoffs will really test their mental makeup. We know they’re good enough to win a title but the doubts will always be there until they finish the job. And they might not ever has as good of a chance as they do this year.

This is where I hope Horford can be a bit of a calming presence for the team. They may need it.
 
Spelunker

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lovegtm said:
This team is really fun to watch and really tiring to read/listen about (both pro and contra Celtics).

I sometimes wish I could go live in a hole and just watch the games with no outside noise, because they're fun af. But who am I kidding.....
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I think it's totally possible. If the outside noise wasn't posted on SoSH I'd never see it. And even here it's pretty easy to ignore.
 
lars10

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RorschachsMask said:
It’s dumb reactionary shit lol. They’ve been incredible in crunch time this season, last night doesn’t matter.
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My overall takeaway after last night is.. yeah it sucks. But they only lost by one.. and a team has to beat them four times out of seven.. I still like there chances.

My other thought though.. if refs call or don’t call fouls like they did in the second half.. anything can happen.
 
lars10

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Spelunker said:
I think it's totally possible. If the outside noise wasn't posted on SoSH I'd never see it. And even here it's pretty easy to ignore.
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And here there’s some of the best commentary there is.. even with the reactionary gamethreads.
 
RorschachsMask

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lars10 said:
My overall takeaway after last night is.. yeah it sucks. But they only lost by one.. and a team has to beat them four times out of seven.. I still like there chances.

My other thought though.. if refs call or don’t call fouls like they did in the second half.. anything can happen.
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Tatum and KP got about as bad a whistle as possible in the 4th quarter, the whole second half really.

Was it an annoying loss? For sure. But for anybody to take anything from it feels crazy to me. It was the teams first loss in over a month lol.
 
lovegtm

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RorschachsMask said:
Tatum and KP got about as bad a whistle as possible in the 4th quarter.

Was it an annoying loss? For sure. But for anybody to take anything from it feels crazy to me. It was the teams first loss in over a month lol.
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The only concerning thing to me is that Miami also has been known to successfully employ "they can't call em all" against the Celtics, and I expect we'll see a lot of that in the playoffs.

I'm reaching a bit for things to be concerned about, but that one is a much bigger concern for me than the team's mentality or execution.
 
RorschachsMask

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benhogan said:
Haven't looked recently but Derrick White has been really good in crunch time

https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/syxj8/1/
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The team went into last nights game with a +23 net rating in crunch time. They consistently create great looks offensively, and hit them. Last night they didn’t, and Dean Wade scored 20 in the fourth lol. Cavs went like 8-10 from three, IIRC.

Was a fluke as hell quarter.
 
benhogan

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RorschachsMask said:
The team went into last nights game with a +23 net rating in crunch time. They consistently create great looks offensively, and hit them. Last night they didn’t, and Dean Wade scored 20 in the fourth lol. Cavs went like 8-10 from three, IIRC.

Was a fluke as hell quarter lol.
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yep Mazzulla-ball is great when they select the most efficient shot
 
Jimbodandy

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the moops said:
Kornet had a really rough stretch in that 4th. Dean Wade went nuts, but he also got good looks whenever Kornet got switched onto him
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Tied up last night so didn't get a chance to watch the game. But did notice that a) Kornet got a lot of run and b) Wade went nuts (and Niang had a decent game too). Figured that those things were related.

This is the type of game that you're going to drop occasionally in the effort to avoid burning out the top-6. KP had 32min, and Al had 20. I'd rather lose this game that way than get the wear and tear on those two guys, nevermind the learnings that come from whatever could have been done better.

Honestly, kinda glad that we dropped this one.
 
lovegtm

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the moops said:
Kornet had a really rough stretch in that 4th. Dean Wade went nuts, but he also got good looks whenever Kornet got switched onto him
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It was weird they didn't play Tillman: Horford+Kornet have gotten roasted all season long. I think that probably tells you CJM was treating this as not a must-win, and was sticking to working with that lineup for practice/reps reasons.
 
bakahump

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Yeah alot not to like. And certainly to be pissed off about. But I am not panicking.

Cavs where white hot (how much of that was Celts D is certainly discussion worthy).
Reffing was atrocious. Porzingus got fouled 3 times on one play. But ok It is what is.
Our execution was bad. Looked like we got tight. And Tatum screwed the pooch on waiting to long. Joe didnt do enough (Run onto the court?? I know I know Technical....but if you want a TO the GET a TO).
Tatum blew 2 points on A DUNK earlier in the game.
I think there were 2 or 3 other "Are you kidding me" misses. Yea at the time we were up big....but they hurt this morning.
 
InstaFace

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lovegtm said:
This team is really fun to watch and really tiring to read/listen about (both pro and contra Celtics).

I sometimes wish I could go live in a hole and just watch the games with no outside noise, because they're fun af. But who am I kidding.....
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Yeah, that game was really fun to watch until 9 minutes remaining in the 4Q. I enjoyed myself.

And it made me doubt our ability to beat Cleveland in the playoffs basically not at all. "if Dean Wade hits 6 of 6 3-pointers and gets some uncontested dunks and our games are all reffed by a Zach Zarba who's tripping balls" yeah yeah, sure. Over 82 games, a confluence of weird shit can happen a few times. Sometimes that happens in the playoffs too (Tatum's ankle). But generally, the season-long trend is what speaks, not the oddball exceptions.
 
lovegtm

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InstaFace said:
Yeah, that game was really fun to watch until 9 minutes remaining in the 4Q. I enjoyed myself.

And it made me doubt our ability to beat Cleveland in the playoffs basically not at all. "if Dean Wade hits 6 of 6 3-pointers and gets some uncontested dunks and our games are all reffed by a Zach Zarba who's tripping balls" yeah yeah, sure. Over 82 games, a confluence of weird shit can happen a few times. Sometimes that happens in the playoffs too (Tatum's ankle). But generally, the season-long trend is what speaks, not the oddball exceptions.
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"or if Joe sticks with a lineup that he would never, ever play absent injuries in the playoffs, even as Dean Wade is getting tons of open 3s"
 
wade boggs chicken dinner

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the moops said:
Kornet had a really rough stretch in that 4th. Dean Wade went nuts, but he also got good looks whenever Kornet got switched onto him
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Wade got I believe it was 3 wide-open looks after JMazz went back to the starters.

Rewatching, after CLE missed the first three 3Ps in the 4Q, the 3P shots for the rest of the 4Q went like this:
  • Wade hit over Kornet good contest
  • Wade hit over Kornet good contest
  • Okoro hit over Kornet contested
  • Niang hit over JT not a great contest
  • Wade basically uncontested (Jrue was helping on a Garland drive and didn't get back)
  • Wade over what appears to be KP (JB didn't switch) late contest
  • Niang over KP from the corner; decent (not great) contest
  • Wade over JB on a good contest
Jrue got lost a few times on defense down the stretch; not his best game.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27sYBxkNnBY
 
InstaFace

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Yeah I can't be too upset with any Cs fan who got 'Nam flashbacks last night to when Caleb Martin morphed into Steph Curry for a series. I went to bed last night probably the earliest I had done for a month - there just was nothing useful that I was going to say or do after that all happened.

But in the cold light of day, I think we all know what the odds say, too.

And I think that we all can agree that we're glad that at least the Kelces got to watch a classic. /S

Edit: maybe that's it, maybe we were trying to mess with some Taylor Swift magic last night. Reckoning with forces beyond our control. Can definitely call last night our "Eyes Wide Shut" game, then.
 
Jed Zeppelin

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lovegtm said:
This team is really fun to watch and really tiring to read/listen about (both pro and contra Celtics).

I sometimes wish I could go live in a hole and just watch the games with no outside noise, because they're fun af. But who am I kidding.....
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I watch pretty much every game on mute on a second screen while the wife and I have something on TV we both watch and this kind of sports viewing has improved my mental health measurably. The games are stressful enough without throwing in annoying AF announcers or like Miami pumping in crowd noise with their dumbass DJ and all that. It's a huge help.

Where I run into trouble is that NBA Twitter loves to hate the Celtics. They really need to finish the job this year to shut a lot of people up.
 
DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Wade got I believe it was 3 wide-open looks after JMazz went back to the starters.

Rewatching, after CLE missed the first three 3Ps in the 4Q, the 3P shots for the rest of the 4Q went like this:
  • Wade hit over Kornet good contest
  • Wade hit over Kornet good contest
  • Okoro hit over Kornet contested
  • Niang hit over JT not a great contest
  • Wade basically uncontested (Jrue was helping on a Garland drive and didn't get back)
  • Wade over what appears to be KP (JB didn't switch) late contest
  • Niang over KP from the corner; decent (not great) contest
  • Wade over JB on a good contest
Jrue got lost a few times on defense down the stretch; not his best game.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27sYBxkNnBY
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The teams will likely look at the tape to clean these things up but it feels like some fans have an expectation that you can eliminate these lapses from an NBA game. If that's the case its unrealistic.

Even the best defenders get beat a bit less than half the time. My guess is that if they played again tomorrow DWade 2.0 would not be as comfortable against the Cs.
 
MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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lovegtm said:
It was weird they didn't play Tillman: Horford+Kornet have gotten roasted all season long. I think that probably tells you CJM was treating this as not a must-win, and was sticking to working with that lineup for practice/reps reasons.
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Tillman wasn't on the injury report, but I saw him on the bench in non-Cs gear (street clothes, though they looked like warmups) and the boxscore doesn't list him at all, even as a DNP. For some reason, he seems not to have been active last night. Not sure why that would be?
 
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