Patriots' 2024 Free Agency Thread
- Thread starter Jake Peavy's Demons
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Tell me you never saw Troy Brown play without telling me you never saw Troy Brown play.
Was this because of Troy Brown, or was it because Parcells and Carroll didn't realize what they had in him, and thought of him as a special team/punt returner. The guy started a total of 7 games in his first 7 seasons (6 in one season, where he had 6tds), and then once Bill took over, he started 51 of the next 57 games he played over 4 seasons.
I saw I think every game he played, he was our #3 or #4 WR for most of a decade. I think the real answer is you did not watch Parker or Juju before they got here, they were legit good starting WRs. I get we all love Troy Brown, but let's not invent a career he didn't have.
He played a lot of games and ran a lot of routes. He was a solid #3 guy many of those years. Now you could argue that Parcells in particular wanted big bodies at WR and that may have hurt him in terms of routes, but he wasn't rotting on the bench. Like most WRs, a lot of production comes from fit in offense and targets.
Juju had one great season (2018) because Atonio Brown was a vortex and getting all the defensive gravity. Juju had a legitimately spectacular 2018. (111 for 1400 yards)
Since then he's been good, at best.(933 yards with KC, 97 catches with Pitt in 2020) Horrendous at worst. (every other season he's played)
So if you watched Juju in 2018, you would think he's Justin Jefferson. Otherwise, not so much. So if people watched Juju after 2018, they would be right to think he's worse than a JAG.
Troy Brown is a great story, 8th round pick, cut a couple times, fumbling/muffed punt issues, spare part turned excellent slot guy and one of the best PR in the league for a couple years
But Troy Brown was never a great WR. He was a savvy and reliable guy for a few years before the injuries and age caught up to him
Better than anyone on the current roster? At his peak yes. He was a quality #2 in a very different era of football. His contemporary equivalent would be Amendola IMO. A guy who makes the QB’s life a lot easier but not a guy that strikes fear into the defense.
A guy like that would certainly help a Maye/Daniels acclimate to the NFL. But he was a more polished, reliable and experienced guy than anything they have now (by a good margin I’d say)
But Troy Brown was never a great WR. He was a savvy and reliable guy for a few years before the injuries and age caught up to him
Better than anyone on the current roster? At his peak yes. He was a quality #2 in a very different era of football. His contemporary equivalent would be Amendola IMO. A guy who makes the QB’s life a lot easier but not a guy that strikes fear into the defense.
A guy like that would certainly help a Maye/Daniels acclimate to the NFL. But he was a more polished, reliable and experienced guy than anything they have now (by a good margin I’d say)
Parcells drafted him 198th overall in 1993. Then he cut his ass in 1994, and brought him back a few weeks later. Since then, Parcells has referred to him as the "best draft pick I ever made" in order to revise some history on why he didn't know how to use him. Weis said this after he and Bill came over in 2000 and started actually using him:
"Maybe he's been this good the whole time and it just took a long time for us to figure it out," Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said. "I think that he's been a good player ever since I've known him. I remember watching the highlight tape of him coming out of Marshall. It was one of the most phenomenal highlight tapes that you've ever seen anyone play in college."
I don't know how many snaps or routes he was running, but my recollection was that they had him playing more of an X role (which is why he had more yards per target during the 3 prior years to Bill getting there than at any point of his career after that). The coaching staffs prior to 2000 simply had no clue how to use him, and barely did so as a result.
I'm the biggest Troy Brown fan alive, but I think that you're missing CD's point here.
After the 1999 season, which was Troy's seventh season in the league and he was 28yo, nobody would say "we have to keep that stud WR". We loved his story, his self-improvement, the special teams impact. Hell, he had an ungodly ability (anectodally) to find a way to get open on third and short and move the chains. Loved the guy then, still do. But the point is that he was a JAG receiver at that time. Just another guy, just like a lot of the "just another guy" receivers that we have now. Anyone who says that they knew that Troy had a 100 catch/1200 yard season inside of him somewhere is retconning reality here. And I think that CD's point is that the next TB might already be on our roster or someone else's.
My belief is that guys that are decent but not special receivers sometimes become special under the right conditions. Troy did just that when he had Brady throwing to him for a few years there. Not that it was all Brady--I'm sure that Troy worked hard on things, and a decent OC and OL contributed as well. In other cases, it's the presence of a true X guy in the that draws coverage and makes it that much easier for Z, Slot, and Y guys to get open catches. Adding a piece or two can elevate the other dudes. And I don't think that's crazy talk to suggest that our WRs wouldn't look a whole lot better in a better situation overall.
It wasn't even close to all Brady.
Troy Brown's breakout season in 2000 was with Drew Bledsoe throwing him the ball (the same Drew Bledsoe that was there the entire time). He started 15 of 16 games that year (after starting 7 in the prior 7 seasons, 6 in one of those years) and got 119 targets, 83 receptions, 944 yards.
Troy Brown's emergence didn't coincide with Brady taking the helm, it coincided with Belichick and Weis doing so.
Edit: When they release volume 2 of Dynasty, I'm sure Bob Kraft will take credit for this too.
OK, but who is that guy for the 2024 Patriots?
I liked Edelman before he broke out as a WR because he had explosiveness and shifty moves returning punts. It wasn't hard for me at least to see him being a good contributor (obviously I didn't predict what he ended up as). I don't see anyone on the roster who could be that now, Bourne I think was underused but now he is coming off a major injury. Maybe if pop Douglas takes a big step forward and can stay healthy. Maybe Osborn but probably not...everyone else kinda sucks unless Juju gets his 24-year-old legs back.
Yeah and maybe they take two shots at college X guys in this draft and one pans out. Or there's another salary cap casualty that they pick up. I'm not saying that we are "all set" in the WR room. But the point is that who was that guy on the 1999 team?
Here's the top 1999 receivers:
--Terry Glenn 69/1147/4
--Shawn Jefferson 40/698 6
--Troy Brown 36/471/1
--Ben Coates (TE) 32/370/2
--Simmons/Brisby average 20/250/1
Nobody thought that a true #1 receiver existed on that team either, except maybe if they were buying Terry Glenn. But just because there doesn't seem to be one doesn't mean that there isn't one.
When Terry Glenn was healthy (and not in Parcell's dog house), he was a #1. The guy came into the league as the #7 overall pick in 1996, and had 90 catches, over 1,100 yards. He didn't have a great playoff run, but he had 26 targets in 3 games.
In 1997, he battled injuries all year, and returned for the playoffs, and got 20 targets in their two playoff games.
Again, in 1998, he battled injuries, but still had 4 100yard games in the 8 full games he played.
In 1999, he exploded out of the gate with 37 catches and 636 yards in the team's first 5 games. He averaged 81ypg in the games he played that year, which would have put him on pace for over 1,300 yards.
Terry Glenn was absolutely a #1, but he just couldn't stay on the field. At age 31 in Dallas, he led the NFL with 18.3ypr and had 1,136 yards that year, and followed it up with another 1,000 yard season at age 32.
There is nobody on the Pats current roster as good as Terry Glenn was when he was healthy. Not even close.
Maybe it's Bourne, who was on track for close to a Calvin Ridley type season before injury, maybe it's Osborn a guy who has been stuck behind highly drafted productive players in MIN but shown flashes of potential... He has had 19 games in his career where he got more than 5 targets... in those games he got... 5.1 catches on 7.9 targets for 67.4 yards... that would be a top 20 yards per game. Now, you can't just assume he'd keep that level of production obviously, but it does indicate a guy who has upside. Maybe it's the guy they draft in this year's draft, who knows. The point was more that outside of a very limited number of guys, a lot of WRs are Troy Browns... guys who have a skillset that in the right offense and with a lot of targets can be really productive.
I don't mean to talk down the other guys. My point is that Troy ended up being the #1 guy here for the next three years after 1999 and nobody could have predicted that.
I loved watching Terry Glenn. His body control and agility were spectacular. I have no idea what his separation stats were, but he was often open by what seemed like 15 yards.
I think 2024 is much closer to 1993. Brisby, Timpson, Crittendon, a very young Troy Brown, Harris, McMurtry. Bledsoe elevated those guys but they were exceptionally average.
I think 2024 is much closer to 1993. Brisby, Timpson, Crittendon, a very young Troy Brown, Harris, McMurtry. Bledsoe elevated those guys but they were exceptionally average.
Well, maybe except Belichick, but yes, I doubt many thought Troy would be a #1, even if only for 2 years. Troy Brown came on in 2000, but Terry Glenn was still the #1 that season. It was in the offseason after 2000 that Terry Glenn lost his fucking mind, got arrested for domestic violence, he was kicked out of mini-camp, and then suspended for the first four games of 2001 for violating the substance abuse policy, left training camp, was suspended again by the team, then suspended for the playoffs by the team, etc.
I understand the point that nobody really saw Troy Brown coming, but to use that as some sort of hope that Jalen Reagor or KJ Osborn could turn into the next Troy Brown, because Troy Brown did it seems a bit wishful to my liking.
Brown was huge in the 2001 and 2003 playoff runs. first game each year was rough (2001 was the Raiders snow game, 2003 was the Titans -10 game), but after that he was dominant. In the first superbowl against the Rams he had 6 catches on 6 targets for 89 yards, all tops on the team. Rams were one of the best defensive teams in the league that year. He had a huge game against the Steelers, with 8 catches on 11 targets for 121 yards, plus the punt return. He had excellent numbers against the Colts and then the Panthers in the SB two years later, another good defensive team. In both Super Bowls he made multiple huge catches on the game winning drives.
Troy Brown was no fucking JAG. Parcells, and then Carroll, had no idea how to use him, or wanted to feed high draft picks like Glenn, Brisby and Michael Timpson. He didnt suddenly get better hands or learn to run better routes at age 29.
Troy Brown was no fucking JAG. Parcells, and then Carroll, had no idea how to use him, or wanted to feed high draft picks like Glenn, Brisby and Michael Timpson. He didnt suddenly get better hands or learn to run better routes at age 29.
The player with the best chance to replicate Brown's success is Pop. That said, all the current guys are extreme long shots.
I don't disagree with that at all (assuming Pop doesn't get his head beaten again).
The problem is let's say Pop turns into Troy Brown and puts up 90 catches and 1,100 yards or so. That's not a #1 in the NFL in 2024. Those are good numbers for a slot guy, but you can't make a passing game go in today's NFL with just a slot guy. You could make it work with a great slot guy and an all world TE as the Pats did for a long time. You can make an all world tight end, a unicorn QB, some pretty good receivers work as KC does.
But for any team that doesn't have Mahomes or Brady back there, simply having a good slot guy, some JAGs at WR, some JAGs at TE isn't going to result in any sort of offense that works in 2024. And that's working from the assumption that Pop turns into Troy Brown.
It's going to suck this year, it's pretty evident, IMO, but I'm willing to give this rebuild a couple years. If they find a QB in this draft, and don't surround him with weapons in 2025, I'll completely lose my shit.
Hopefully they can start a breakfast club once the new QB/Jacoby roles are set; seems to work for Puka, Kupp, and Stafford.
I'd settle for a regular meet up at a Dunkin Donuts location TBD.
Puka was #177.
I'd settle for a regular meet up at a Dunkin Donuts location TBD.
Puka was #177.
Take 2000-2002 Troy Brown and put him in today's NFL with a good QB and he ends up with 110 catches for 1,400 yards and 7-8 touchdowns. That's a #1 receiver for sure.
I view a true #1 as someone who’ll command double teams and open up the field for others. 2001 Troy Brown might be able to put up 110/1400/8 statistically or close to it but he’s not commanding double teams. I guess what I’m looking for is someone who operates on the outside (X receiver? I stink at the technical terms) more than the slot AND who requires consistent safety attention.
We all probably have different definitions on what makes someone a #1 though.
This sounds like the NFL HoF committee. Take Brown, Welker and Edelman off those teams and they are severely impacted. I know Felger loves a guy who can take the top off a defense! You want a key first down and keep drives alive it’s them, not the X for the most part.
It’s not sexy but catching 80+ balls a year for 900 yards up the middle is just as valuable as an X in my opinion.
Tyrese Maxey is scoring 26 ppg for the Sixers. Is he a #1 scoring option? Someone has to catch those passes. I think there is a distinction that goes beyond stats and I wasn’t trying to devalue these slot guys’ contributions but I think there are different tiers. Again, reasonable minds can differ on this.
It makes me happy to see everyone rush to TB80's defense, since he's my favorite all-time player. But he had 7 years in the league before he turned into that guy. Sometimes that's how it goes. That was the argument, not that Troy was bad.
And this "well Parcells and Pete Carroll just didn't know how to use him" is foolish talk. Troy continued to develop as a player, and that's a testament to him. Guy was intercepting balls at the end too. Probably helped pave some of the parking lots and did some web design by the end. But he was in his 8th year in the league before he caught more than 41 balls in a season. That first segment of his career was the very definition of JAG at the WR position. He became something else in the second half of his career. That's part of why some of us love the guy so much.
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Too soon (not this play, the next week). The Pats had no business choking that game away.
Just remember that this was the post I was responding to initially: “ I know it didn't work out for Mac Jones, but wouldn't you rather find out your QB of the future can cut it as an NFL QB throwing to mediocre receivers and then you truly unleash his talents when you eventually acquire a true #1? It was like Brady up until he got Moss.”
By the time Tom Brady became NE’s starting QB, Troy Brown was a #1 receiver. Then Branch came along soon after and while he may not have been a #1, he was really, really good, better than anyone the Pats currently have. It wasn’t like Brady had mishmash to throw to until 2007 when Moss and Walker came along. His early years of development were aided by having Brown and then Branch.
I kind of feel like the biggest play in Patriots’ history might have been Brown’s catch in Super Bowl 36. The field goal and Brady’s drive get the press, but that was a game winner.
His catch in Super Bowl 38 is still one of the most amazing I've ever seen.
My bad. As is sometimes the case, two different conversations merged into one.
The one after the push off? Yeah, given the moment and the penalty that was just an amazing overcoming adversity play.
What push off? I’ve watched a bunch of highlights from that SB and can’t see one.
Matthew Slater being ST perfection has unfortunately overshadowed just how good Izzo was as an ST guy. He was everywhere.
He was called for OPI the play before. It set them back in a 1st and 20. Timestamped here
Edit: it's always pissed me off that everyone talks about how Kasay kicked it out of bounds and gave the game away. The Pats had to do some work on that drive after that penalty.
View: https://youtu.be/c6OKT-FA6lI?si=9PCyYUrL8UOmO5fD&t=7461
Oh right. I thought you had meant on the play. The penalty that set them back I do remember.
In the final game of the 1999 season against Baltimore, I distinctly remember the Foxboro crowd loudly chanting “Sign Troy Brown.” It was a big local topic at the time. Maybe he ended up better than people thought, but he most certainly had won over the fanbase and ownership, who very quickly signed that 28 year old WR to a 5-year deal.
Bottom of the roster guy if he makes it at all. They needed a body with Mills and Phillips gone.
Another 1 year deal. Wolf is going to be busy 12 months from now retaining all these bargain bin pickups
Another 1 year deal. Wolf is going to be busy 12 months from now retaining all these bargain bin pickups
I think Hawkins is a fringe guy for them, might make the team might not. He's a hybrid safety so maybe could play some FS.
22 years later, Troy Brown would be 5th in receptions, 6th in yards, and tied for 4th in TDs? Despite finishing with these ordinals in his best years?
2000 14th Receptions, 21st Yards, tied 45th TDs
2001 5th Receptions, 10th Yards, tied 37th TDs
2002 7th Receptions, 30th Yards, tied for 67th TDs?
On what planet and with what cybernetic modifications would he be playing today, such that he’s smoking Adams and Diggs and sitting right there with St. Brown?
Peppers happened. Pretty much anyone who's played that role has been great for the Patriots, which is why I'd be a little hesitant to pay Dugger big money (also thought he wasn't anything special in a deeper role last year).
I suspect with Dugger the case for re-signing him is him being the mic/green dot and being a veteran leader at a time when they are transitioning.
And Peppers was great. I just found it odd that a guy who was so central to the defense the year before could barely sniff the field.
he saw a pretty big drop in snaps from 2021 to 2022, particularly the 2nd half of 2022, he also shifted even closer to the line. I think it's a case that he used to be someone they trusted as a FS in coverage and they didn't anymore (maybe lost a step or two) and they liked Phillips better in the star role.