10/23: Might As Well Let Us Win Today

Murderer's Crow

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Almost looked like they were pitching around Bader for a second to get to Judge.

Good season with you all again. I have a very different view of this team than some others on here but I have to think before I babble some words. My hot take summarization of the roster construction is maybe...missed opportunities. Dominos.
 

jon abbey

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So who fucked that up? IKF? Gleyber? Both?

I see the error was given to Gleyber, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
I watched it a bunch of times, I am pretty sure that Gleyber's throw was close to where it should be and it was not thrown too hard for how close it was, but somehow IKF did not react at all until it was too late. You know I am going to say this but I think there is a good chance that Peraza turns the DP there, fitting that yet another bad personnel deployment decision cost them the last game (IMO obv).

Good season! Thanks for coming back, Terry, hope you stick around...
 

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Good season, but lots of potential for better things that just didn't happen. Look forward to the discussions about the future.

Terry, it was great seeing you around again.
 

terrynever

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Good season, but lots of potential for better things that just didn't happen. Look forward to the discussions about the future.

Terry, it was great seeing you around again.
Thanks, guys. I just got too old this season. Knew it in April. Too old to really put in the time you need to be a good fan. I went to bed on this game in the fifth inning. I will be back next year, God willing.
 

teddywingman

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I watched it a bunch of times, I am pretty sure that Gleyber's throw was close to where it should be and it was not thrown too hard for how close it was, but somehow IKF did not react at all until it was too late. You know I am going to say this but I think there is a good chance that Peraza turns the DP there, fitting that yet another bad personnel deployment decision cost them the last game (IMO obv).
That's how I saw it too, and I immediately thought of your prediction about SS defense.

He was running toward the wrong side of the bag to start with.
 

InsideTheParker

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Thanks, guys. I just got too old this season. Knew it in April. Too old to really put in the time you need to be a good fan. I went to bed on this game in the fifth inning. I will be back next year, God willing.
Hi, Terry. I had been wondering about you; want to join the chorus of welcome backs. As for too old: tell me about it. I turned 80 this month, and when I fell asleep the NYY were ahead. That's par for the course for us oldsters---not the score, the falling asleep part. My husband, Yankees fan, is napping this morning.
See you next year, let's hope.
 

Al Zarilla

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Thanks, guys. I just got too old this season. Knew it in April. Too old to really put in the time you need to be a good fan. I went to bed on this game in the fifth inning. I will be back next year, God willing.
I'll chime in too, Terry. Always enjoyed your posts, including back to another message board whose name I can't remember! Be well.
 

jon abbey

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Lots of folks here seem to think that is how one defines success.
I don't know what this post means, I do know that making the ALCS is not an unsuccessful season and anyone viewing the MLB season through the prism of 1 winner and 29 losers is pretty silly.
 

jon abbey

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13 seasons now since they won the WS:

10 playoff seasons, 3 times missing the playoffs (84/84/85 wins in those three).

5 ALCS losses
3 ALDS losses
2 wild card losses

Is that ideal? Obviously not. Is that 'unsuccessful'? Again, to me, pretty obviously not.
 

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Always a joy to read your posts, Terry! Loved having you back here. Nothing beats real-life experience, and masterful storytelling as you so often bring. Thank you for so often providing us with this consistently.
 

Murderer's Crow

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13 seasons now since they won the WS:

10 playoff seasons, 3 times missing the playoffs (84/84/85 wins in those three).

5 ALCS losses
3 ALDS losses
2 wild card losses

Is that ideal? Obviously not. Is that 'unsuccessful'? Again, to me, pretty obviously not.
I want a world series. Full stop. I'll even take MAKING the world series. I don't care if we can call the team a successful 2nd best team in the AL and a top 10% team in baseball. If you find enjoyment in that, no issues from me, but you're trying to convince others that just making the ALCS is great. I would feel the same way if we make the world series 5 times and get ousted 5 times. Not good enough. The team is due for a title and it doesn't take mortgaging the future to try to tweak a few things as compared to running it back w/ the ALCS roster give or take a prospect.
 

jon abbey

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I want a world series. Full stop. I'll even take MAKING the world series. I don't care if we can call the team a successful 2nd best team in the AL and a top 10% team in baseball. If you find enjoyment in that, no issues from me, but you're trying to convince others that just making the ALCS is great. I would feel the same way if we make the world series 5 times and get ousted 5 times. Not good enough. The team is due for a title and it doesn't take mortgaging the future to try to tweak a few things as compared to running it back w/ the ALCS roster give or take a prospect.
I love you, man, but all of this is stupid. Everyone wants to win a World Series, and no one is 'due' for a title.

And they are constantly tweaking, in minor and in major ways. They'd be in a decidedly worse position right now without that Montgomery/Bader deal, for instance.
 

jon abbey

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Also personnel moves don't matter that much if the same people are making the utilization decisions in the front office, every season there are inexplicable moves made by NY in the postseason that end up hurting them badly. Whoever made the decision (for instance) to not bring up Peraza earlier and not start him in the postseason should not be making decisions like that anymore. If that is Cashman, then he needs someone else in there in charge of personnel deployment.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I love you, man, but all of this is stupid. Everyone wants to win a World Series, and no one is 'due' for a title.

And they are constantly tweaking, in minor and in major ways. They'd be in a decidedly worse position right now without that Montgomery/Bader deal, for instance.
This is what I was referring to on the other thread.

some folks are happy being competitive every year and keeping it interesting

other folks don’t care if the team is last four or five years in a row, if there is a title every five or six years.

we had a thread/poll about this on the main board a couple months ago. More folks wanted the consistently competitive without so many titles than the alternative.

both positions are valid, IMHO
 

jon abbey

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This is what I was referring to on the other thread.

some folks are happy being competitive every year and keeping it interesting

other folks don’t care if the team is last four or five years in a row, if there is a title every five or six years.

we had a thread/poll about this on the main board a couple months ago. More folks wanted the consistently competitive without so many titles than the alternative.

both positions are valid, IMHO
Both positions are not actually positions, no team is aiming for either of these, there's no actual choice. The choice is only in retrospect.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Both positions are not actually positions, no team is aiming for either of these, there's no actual choice. The choice is only in retrospect.
True. But as a fan there are two camps of what makes you more satisfied. Although a team could aim for that by loading up one year with short term, high priced players, and then bumble along for the next few with a reset
 

tims4wins

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By my math, there have been 117 World Series, with the Yankees winning 27. There are currently 30 teams. For all 30 to win 27 titles, it would take 810 years. 90 of those wins have already happened (117 - 27), so 720 more years.

So yes, the Yankees are due for a title somewhere around 2744. I'm good with that.
 

jon abbey

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By my math, there have been 117 World Series, with the Yankees winning 27. There are currently 30 teams. For all 30 to win 27 titles, it would take 810 years. 90 of those wins have already happened (117 - 27), so 720 more years.

So yes, the Yankees are due for a title somewhere around 2744. I'm good with that.
This applies to the Celtics and Patriots too, right?
 

Murderer's Crow

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I love you, man, but all of this is stupid. Everyone wants to win a World Series, and no one is 'due' for a title.

And they are constantly tweaking, in minor and in major ways. They'd be in a decidedly worse position right now without that Montgomery/Bader deal, for instance.
Tweaking in minor and major ways is not the issue. It’s the decisions being made that are. You’ll be happy to remember I’m not running the franchise because if I were, I’m with Francesa, complete overhaul. Fresh eyes, fresh assessment, goodbye to Cashman and Boone. The biggest hesitation I would have in letting Cashman go is that Hal is the one picking a new GM.

and let’s not crown Bader yet. I make that trade today tomorrow and yesterday but we have a really small sample size right now.

I just don’t get the love for the job being done with an almost $285m payroll. We didn’t have a clear short stop, left fielder, and they absolutely insisted that JD start at 3rd. Beginning of the postseason Boone said no way Stanton would start left in Yankee Stadium. Cool beans dude, he started left yesterday. How can we have confidence they have any fucking idea what they’re doing?
 

jon abbey

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It's really easy to say 'complete overhaul' but a lot different actually putting that into place. People are so quick to fire Cashman and Boone when I think no one really knows what their jobs actually encompass and what other people in the organization are responsible for. I would be happy to see Boone go, I thought he was a bad hire to begin with and have never been a fan of his, but that's not going to change anything. He's not really the one deciding who starts at SS game to game, I just don't believe that is his decision.

And it's hard to take any post seriously that cites Francesa, I have gum on my shoes that understand 2022 sports better than he does. He was so knowledgable when he started, but that was 40 years ago now.
 

Murderer's Crow

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I guess I don’t understand your perspective day to day. You’re the first to second guess how they utilize their kids and roster. You say it’s not Boone’s fault. But also you’re pretty much defending Cashman. You either can’t have it both ways or are just very willing to forgive organizational mishaps because of a winning record.

I don’t know why any GM deserves that level of disregard for mistakes. Cashman is incredible in a lot of ways but do we have the best system in the league? No. Do we hit the jackpot on his free agent selections? No. Do we often trade for very good players who come here and get worse? Yes.

I’m not ready to defend him anymore like I’ve done for the better part of my life. I basically only know Cashman as the GM. I thank him for his work. But ready to move on.
 

jon abbey

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You (and all of the other criticism today) make it sound like the team went 70-92, as opposed to having the second best run differential in MLB and winning the division and making the ALCS despite a flood of injuries. The downside to firing Cashman IMO is way way greater than the upside.
 

terrynever

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How could I leave this? This place is better than an Irish wake. We have just enough varying perspectives to keep the day-old game thread fresh.

We should all be standing over the coffin right now, speaking of the dead 2022 Yankees. Beers in hand. Talking about how we dared to dream in June when the Yankees rarely lost. We all knew it was too good to be true but we’ll always have May and June, 2022.

This was a Final Four team. Nobody likes losing at any point but a month from now, we will look back and see only the good stuff. Aaron Judge doing everything with the grace of DiMaggio. Stanton hitting screaming line drives that knock gloves off infielders. Matt Carpenter’s HR binge. Nestor dealing. It was a fun team to watch until the All-Star break.

Carry on.
 

Murderer's Crow

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You (and all of the other criticism today) make it sound like the team went 70-92, as opposed to having the second best run differential in MLB and winning the division and making the ALCS despite a flood of injuries. The downside to firing Cashman IMO is way way greater than the upside.
I'm trying to only make it sound like winning 90+ games isn't some big whooping achievement for this team. We do it basically every year. So do the other top teams. The difference is they win in October and we don't. I get absolutely no extra enjoyment for winning 105 games over 92 and then get ousted in the ALDS or ALCS. There's no difference for me.

and yea man, what is sports if not wanting to win championships? I do not enjoy watching teams like Houston or Boston or LA winning, nevermind if the Mets get over the line before us. That's the whole damn point for me. I can enjoy the regular season just fine but I haven't remembered much about most regular season Yankee games except for the few crazy games here and there. I enjoy watching the regular season, but I care about the postseason more. I don't think that makes me nuts.
 

EvilEmpire

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Caring about the postseason more is fine and good and reasonable.

But here's the thing: I don't think winning 90+ games and positioning the team for a strong post-season run is something to be taken for granted. It just isn't. Making the playoffs may be easier now, sure, but you damn well don't want to be in the wild card series.

Cashman has built a team that can compete. When he stops building competitive teams, it will be time for him to go.
 

Congo

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"I'm trying to only make it sound like winning 90+ games isn't some big whooping achievement for this team. We do it basically every year. So do the other top teams. The difference is they win in October and we don't. I get absolutely no extra enjoyment for winning 105 games over 92 and then get ousted in the ALDS or ALCS. There's no difference for me. "

But do they, really? I'm sure you'd consider the Dodgers and the Astros to be among "other top teams." In the past 15 years, they've won exactly as many World Series as the Yankees.
 

Murderer's Crow

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"I'm trying to only make it sound like winning 90+ games isn't some big whooping achievement for this team. We do it basically every year. So do the other top teams. The difference is they win in October and we don't. I get absolutely no extra enjoyment for winning 105 games over 92 and then get ousted in the ALDS or ALCS. There's no difference for me. "

But do they, really? I'm sure you'd consider the Dodgers and the Astros to be among "other top teams." In the past 15 years, they've won exactly as many World Series as the Yankees.
The Astros and Dodgers haven't been top teams for 15 years.
 

Congo

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That's fair, but both of those teams have been serious players for much of the time since the last Yankees WS.
 

terrynever

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That's fair, but both of those teams have been serious players for much of the time since the last Yankees WS.
So, is Boston’s approach more viable? Build up, tear down, finish last five times, get high draft picks, rebuild, etc. Contrast that with the Yankees’ not finishing under .500 in 30 years.

What do Sox fans prefer? What do Yankee fans think of the organization’s philosophy?

Houston did a lot of tanking a decade ago to build its current mini-dynasty in the AL.

Tanking is not a new concept and should not be construed as selling out on your fan base.
 

Murderer's Crow

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So, is Boston’s approach more viable? Build up, tear down, finish last five times, get high draft picks, rebuild, etc. Contrast that with the Yankees’ not finishing under .500 in 30 years.

What do Sox fans prefer? What do Yankee fans think of the organization’s philosophy?

Houston did a lot of tanking a decade ago to build its current mini-dynasty in the AL.

Tanking is not a new concept and should not be construed as selling out on your fan base.
I made a statement in an earlier post that if the Yankees made the WS 5 times and lost 5 times, I would have a big problem with that.

If Houston loses this WS, there is a great argument to be made that they are a bunch of chokers. Their only WS in 4 attempts and 6 ALCSs is one where they cheated. The story can completely shift against Houston if they lose, regardless of how amazing their organization is run.

For Boston, I would trade their last 10 years with our last 10 years but - and not trying to start an argument here - I wouldn't take their next 5 years for our next 5 years.
 

E5 Yaz

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For Boston, I would trade their last 10 years with our last 10 years but - and not trying to start an argument here - I wouldn't take their next 5 years for our next 5 years.
Subject to change in five years, of course
 

EvilEmpire

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I think the Red Sox won some championships in spite of their boom and bust cycle and front office turnover, and not because of it.
 

Congo

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So, is Boston’s approach more viable? Build up, tear down, finish last five times, get high draft picks, rebuild, etc. Contrast that with the Yankees’ not finishing under .500 in 30 years.

What do Sox fans prefer? What do Yankee fans think of the organization’s philosophy?

Houston did a lot of tanking a decade ago to build its current mini-dynasty in the AL.

Tanking is not a new concept and should not be construed as selling out on your fan base.
Personally, Boston's approach would drive me crazy. I couldn't go two or three years with a completely unwatchable last place team. I need to see meaningful games, all summer, every year. But that's just me, YMMV.
 

terrynever

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Personally, Boston's approach would drive me crazy. I couldn't go two or three years with a completely unwatchable last place team. I need to see meaningful games, all summer, every year. But that's just me, YMMV.
What’s funny is Boston has not finished last two years in a row since who knows when. Early 1960s. They perfected the crash under Bobby V in 2012 and then won the WS the next year.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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So, is Boston’s approach more viable? Build up, tear down, finish last five times, get high draft picks, rebuild, etc. Contrast that with the Yankees’ not finishing under .500 in 30 years.

What do Sox fans prefer? What do Yankee fans think of the organization’s philosophy?

Houston did a lot of tanking a decade ago to build its current mini-dynasty in the AL.

Tanking is not a new concept and should not be construed as selling out on your fan base.
There was a poll about this on the main board in the latter part of the season

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/stake-your-claim-championships-or-consistent-competing.37498/
 

Murderer's Crow

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I think the Red Sox won some championships in spite of their boom and bust cycle and front office turnover, and not because of it.
Oh, I completely agree. I'm just saying I'll take the championships because I bet the losing season are a distant memory aside from the most recent one.