2013 Broncos: The Unholy Alliance
- Thread starter Morgan's Magic Snowplow
- Start date
I gotta say I'm with 86spike - I don't understand why you guys let the media coverage of the Pats bother you so much. I understand being frustrated with it, but it seems like for many of you it really gets under your skin, to the point of potentially ruining the enjoyment of having a perennially good team. Yes, the Spygate crap is stupid and I'm sure it's annoying as hell when someone (usually a Raven) reaches back and brings it up years later, but whatever. You just have to know that it's jealousy. And quite frankly you shouldn't give a flying fuck what Peter King, TMQ, or any NFL columnist thinks to begin with, let alone when it comes to the Patriots and Belichick. That said, it's really dumb to let this frustration infect everything about how you watch football. In other words, the constant shitting on Peyton's season is pathetic. Really pathetic.
I just don't care at all.
In 30 years, the media will treat BB and Brady like Russell/Bird/Orr royalty and shit on the new wave of Boston players. The Patriots get shit for running up the score. I'd much rather have that narrative then the Manning "Can't win the big game/can't win in the cold" narrative. Give me "They're assholes!" over "He folds when it matters most!" narrative everyday of the week.
In 30 years, the media will treat BB and Brady like Russell/Bird/Orr royalty and shit on the new wave of Boston players. The Patriots get shit for running up the score. I'd much rather have that narrative then the Manning "Can't win the big game/can't win in the cold" narrative. Give me "They're assholes!" over "He folds when it matters most!" narrative everyday of the week.
Re: media silence regarding the Broncos' records, isn't it that in 2007, what the Pats were doing was such an aberration that is just had to be remarked and pundited upon? And nowadays, the kind of "feats" we see Manning and his offense engaging in are just not surprising anymore?
I fan-hate Manning and the Broncos as much as the next guy, and as a Pats lifer roll my eyes at the fellation and the double standard as well, but it could be just as simple as it meant more in 2007 than it does in 2013. Look to MLB for a similar phenomenon with regard to offensive numbers...George Foster 1977 was always so much more interesting to me than, say, Troy Glaus 2001.
I fan-hate Manning and the Broncos as much as the next guy, and as a Pats lifer roll my eyes at the fellation and the double standard as well, but it could be just as simple as it meant more in 2007 than it does in 2013. Look to MLB for a similar phenomenon with regard to offensive numbers...George Foster 1977 was always so much more interesting to me than, say, Troy Glaus 2001.
cromulence said:
I don't think there's actually that much shitting on his season. It's certainly not "constant". There's been a few notes about throwing late in games, but I don't think there's some constant drumbeat against Manning, it's more against the media.
But, in the end, I think a lot people mistake some posts on a message board for someone "really, really caring" about something.
cromulence said:
Because the gross double standard in the coverage of the two situations is stark. And it rankles.
I do not hate Manning. What he's done this year is amazing. But what he's done is exactly what Brady and NE did in 2007, and the Pats were and still are described as "classless" and poor sports for setting all those records 6 years ago. This year, Manning and the Broncos have taken ZERO criticism about doing exactly the same thing. It was bullshit when the Pats got shit on for setting records, and I am in no way saying the Broncos should be criticized now. But the legacy of both orgs is shaped in large part by the media coverage of them, and the way these situations are being covered is appallingly different.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
See, here's the disconnect. I don't think when most people (non-Patriots fans) look back on the 2007 Pats they say "classless poor sports running up the score". Yeah, there was some talk about running up the score back then, but there was also people defending it as totally kosher (not just NE people either). When people think of that team, they talk about Tom Brady and Randy Moss being fucking terrifying and setting records, about 16-0 and that crazy Ravens game, about that insane Week 17 game when they almost lost and ended up breaking multiple records with one long TD. The only people who think of that team the way that you're saying are the haters - bitter Jets fans and so on. Now, I will grant you this - if the Pats had won and gone 19-0, people would be MUCH shittier towards that team, just out of pure spite. Since they lost, I think it's easier for people to look back on them fondly.
John Clayton
Washington Post
N.Y. Times "Have You No Decency Sir?"
CHFF Did a Little Round-up as well: Skeletons In the Closet
And it didn't stop after 2007
Business Insider" "Gronkowski Broke His Forearm While Patriots Were Running Up The Score"
St. Louis Post Dispatch: "Patriots Pay Big Price For Piling On."
This is the kind of stuff that rankles Patriots fans. I mean, those last two are articles from 2012 that basically assert it is common knowledge and fact that the Patriots/Belichick "enjoy running up the score." It was promoted so much in 2007 that it has become a crutch for anyone who wants to write anything negative about the Patriots. You can just insert "running up the score" into the article and people won't bat an eye. And these aren't just "haters" or "bitter Jets fans."
Peyton Manning is having a phenomenal season and he is a joy to watch play QB. My hope is that somehow he and Brady go into the HOF together as the only two members of that year's class. But it's the double standard in coverage that pisses me off.
Washington Post
N.Y. Times "Have You No Decency Sir?"
CHFF Did a Little Round-up as well: Skeletons In the Closet
And it didn't stop after 2007
Business Insider" "Gronkowski Broke His Forearm While Patriots Were Running Up The Score"
St. Louis Post Dispatch: "Patriots Pay Big Price For Piling On."
This is the kind of stuff that rankles Patriots fans. I mean, those last two are articles from 2012 that basically assert it is common knowledge and fact that the Patriots/Belichick "enjoy running up the score." It was promoted so much in 2007 that it has become a crutch for anyone who wants to write anything negative about the Patriots. You can just insert "running up the score" into the article and people won't bat an eye. And these aren't just "haters" or "bitter Jets fans."
Peyton Manning is having a phenomenal season and he is a joy to watch play QB. My hope is that somehow he and Brady go into the HOF together as the only two members of that year's class. But it's the double standard in coverage that pisses me off.
People were all like "nah, it wasn't that bad...plus nobody talks about it anymore."
Mascho was all like "Eat some of this shit sandwich, bitch."
Good post, Mascho.
Mascho was all like "Eat some of this shit sandwich, bitch."
Good post, Mascho.
Mike Felger often tells the story of how immediately after the 2007-08 Super Bowl the bus which transports reporters from the stadium back to their hotels consisted of media members high fiving each other, celebrating NE's loss. A couple even started anti-Patriot chants. He said he's never seen anything like it in his career. And this is from Felger, who is the furthest thing from a homer.
So please stop the condescending, trolling posts telling Patriot fans how to feel about hypocritical and biased coverage. Worry about the wind in Denver two weeks from now.
So please stop the condescending, trolling posts telling Patriot fans how to feel about hypocritical and biased coverage. Worry about the wind in Denver two weeks from now.
Oh, come on. I'm telling you, as someone who isn't from New England, about my sense of how the general public thinks about that team. Not the media. The media loves their angles, and they're always gonna stick to them. But seriously - two articles from Business Insider and the St. Louis Post Dispatch is not indicative of how we as a football watching nation view the 2007 Patriots. Once again, I admit that there will be bitter haters who will always harp on Spygate and running up the score. I'm saying these people are in the minority and it's a waste of time and energy to concern yourselves with them.
Cromulence, I think some of us are "rankled" because the media perspective affects how this last decade or 15 years is going to go down in history. It is a nearly unprecedented run of success, especially given the salary cap era. The team's achievements have been remarkable (including a new record achieved this year of a bye 4 years in a row). No one has really come close to this run of success. But the media has tainted the run with things like Spygate and running up the score. They receive credit nationally, sure, but this is a historically awesome run of success, and I don't think that is given its due credit.
BannedbyNYYFans.com said:
OK I should probably stop, but wow I can't let that go. I'm absolutely not trolling, and I fucking resent that. If you can't handle a discussion where someone has a different point of view than yours, I'm deeply sorry but piss off. Of course there was huge anti-Pats sentiment back then. Again, I'm talking about NOW. If you don't want to believe me and my honest take on how people think of that team and would rather insist on being bitter, then go for it.
I just disagree from my experience posting on other, non-Pats football message boards (and not espn.com level tripe either).
I will probably root for Manning and Denver and Welker if the Pats get knocked out, so definitely not Broncos/Manning hate driving it for me.
I will probably root for Manning and Denver and Welker if the Pats get knocked out, so definitely not Broncos/Manning hate driving it for me.
tims4wins said:
OK, then I guess for me it comes down to "Why do you care?" If you need media adulation to enjoy your team's success, then I don't really know what to tell you. As a Yankee fan I have no choice but to embrace the hate that everyone else has for my team (I'm not trying to be a martyr or "woe is me", just stating the facts), and root for them regardless. I'd suggest Pats fan do the same for your own enjoyment, but hey, to each his own.
cromulence said:
No, we don't need adulation. But while it was going on it was fucking annoying that instead of normal coverage we got that. And now, when another team does the same thing, it's 180 degrees the other way. You can't see how that's annoying enough to waste a few minutes talking about on a message board instead of working?
Is it really hard to figure out why a double-standard is annoying? No one is claiming this is the end of the world. 95% of the threads on this site are about basically meaningless shit.
cromulence said:
Right, we shouldn't care, but we shouldn't care so deeply about sports in general. But we do, which is why we're "fanatics", and why we're on this board. It's a disease.
Edit: I will say that as a fan of Duke basketball, I have generally learned to let all of the national negativity and hatred toward Duke go. It used to bother me a lot, now a lot less so. Maybe that will happen eventually with the Patriots. But despite all of that hatred toward Duke, no one puts down their accomplishments or says they "cheated" to win their 4 titles or says they "ran up the score" when they were blowing teams out. Everyone respects what Duke has done. Not everyone respects what the Pats have done.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Plus just on the previous page, TMQ, who has millions of readers each week, just posted this 2 weeks ago:
This is in a CURRENT COLUMN. His argument is essentially "It's OK to run up the score because it's not the Patriots."
Of course it's still in the current dialog about the clubs. Don't pretend it's not. The "well no one I know voted for him" defense is invalid.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
BannedbyNYYFans.com said:
86spike's been nothing but nice and tolerant here. Others have been equally conciliatory. This is going way too far.
Pats fans have taken over a Denver thread and made it about their bitterness towards the media. That's a subject worthy of discussion, for a Pats-centric board. But shouldn't we split it out into its own thread, and at least give Spike and the others a place to talk about, I dunno, Denver's team and their chances in January?
OK, I've calmed down a bit and decided to look at the two seasons in question, particularly their margins of victory:
2013 Broncos:
MoV:
30+: 1
20-29: 6
10-19: 3
1-9: 3
2007 Pats:
MoV:
40+ 2
30-39: 1
20-29: 7
10-19: 1
1-9: 4
The Broncos' point differential for the season was 207. The Pats' was 315.
So if I rationalize it a bit, I can see why the perception lingers: the Pats had 3 huuuuuuuge wins, the Broncos only had one. But the they had roughly the same middle of the road (20-29) wins, and the Pats had more close wins (of course they had more wins overall). But that's not enough of a difference IMO for the stark difference in the treatment of the two teams given that each one broker multiple scoring records.
2013 Broncos:
MoV:
30+: 1
20-29: 6
10-19: 3
1-9: 3
2007 Pats:
MoV:
40+ 2
30-39: 1
20-29: 7
10-19: 1
1-9: 4
The Broncos' point differential for the season was 207. The Pats' was 315.
So if I rationalize it a bit, I can see why the perception lingers: the Pats had 3 huuuuuuuge wins, the Broncos only had one. But the they had roughly the same middle of the road (20-29) wins, and the Pats had more close wins (of course they had more wins overall). But that's not enough of a difference IMO for the stark difference in the treatment of the two teams given that each one broker multiple scoring records.
tims4wins said:
Not comparable at all. Duke is hated nationally by fans and not by the media. The Pats are loathed by both.
Fair point dogman. Maybe that's why I have been able to get over it with Duke, but not the Pats.
cromulence said:
Yes, clearly, I'm the bitter one. Boo hoo.
My point is simple, there is a double standard with the media coverage. And I find it odd that other fans can admit to it, then just say, "but it's no big deal, don't let it bother you". I find that condescending. If you want to disagree, fine, but please don't tell me how to feel.
cromulence said:
I didn't live in New England for the last dozen or so years, and my experience was different from yours. I also taught and had many conversations about SpyGate/2007 Patriots (the two often get collapsed, really) with many, people from multiple generations of sports fans, some who actually came to me to talk specifically about questions about that team even years later because it endures as an issue.
My experience is different from yours. For the record, I lived in four different non-NE states in this span; combining that with getting a new batch of students every few months, I'm guessing my sample size is way larger than average for random sports conversations, and comparative in focus from living in four states in three different regions of the country. It is on that basis that I'm willing to say that you should hesitate to claim to speak for non-NE America; as SJH suggests more succinctly than I, just because you haven't been aware of it doesn't mean it's not real.
I think the thing that rankles me most about it isn't the Patriots hate which I really don't give a crap about, but the refusal to recognize and appreciate greatness. I think this phenomenon--highly related to "hater culture"--is a huge problem in our society. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, there is a couple thousand years of philosophical literature on how democracy has a tendency to devolve into celebration of mediocrity and subversion of the concept of excellence and the Founders of this country took the concern very seriously and debated the matter at great length. Is Patriots hate going to destroy America? Of course not. But it might be a symptom of a serious disease.
When I lived in NJ, my roommate was a rabid football and Jets fan who was absolutely baffled by how anyone who liked football could not appreciate the Patriots organization.
MentalDisabldLst said:
Yeah, 86 is cool. cromulence has been kind of poking the bear a bit though.
Telling people which sports narratives they should and should not bother them is a bit of a fool's errand, I think. I mean, let's face it: this is all stupid. :trekball:
You're probably right that this shouldn't be the focus of a team thread for a playoff team, though.
cromulence said:
So I just had xmas dinner with some distant relatives who are smart, normal ivy league grads from Philly and they informed me that the Pats won Superbowl XXXIV by spying on the eagles during halftime--we all know the pats are cheaters and they adjusted at halftime so well they just had to have spied. (When I said how did they spy--send a guy with a camera in during halftime? they said probably: they weren't sure how they spied, admitted that they had no evidence of spying, but they know for certain that the Pats did in fact spy).
When the media is so stupid for so long it creates an atmosphere where fans say stupid shit. I'll live but my life would have been just a little bit better if I could have had a conversation about football that didn't want me want to take a ball peen hammer to myself to end the pain.
IMO that the '07/'08 Pats were a juggernaut, steamrollering teams every week, coupled with the lingering Spygate bullshit, linked to the view of BB as Darth Vader, led to an Evil Empire view of the organization. Further as they built their undefeated record every week, they became the Goliath to root against. Then that a NY team played the part of Luke Skywalker and that NYC remains the media capital of the world, probably didn't help the Pats shaping views about that team either in '07/'08 or going forward.
I live in NJ and have lived/worked in the NYC metroa area for 30+ years, and in general the lack of respect the Pats get here from both Giant and Jet fans is pretty widespread.
I live in NJ and have lived/worked in the NYC metroa area for 30+ years, and in general the lack of respect the Pats get here from both Giant and Jet fans is pretty widespread.
Reverend said:
Bush tried to but there was a pretty bad typo in the order he sent out.
EDIT: General media malaise is only annoying when we see it in sports coverage; it's too depressing for me to contemplate in real life.
Didn't the NFL change a Brady to Gronk passing TD to a rushing TD after the game was over because they ruled it was a lateral? I think this was last year or the year before... Anyway, it would be hilarious if they took away Peyton's passing yardage record for the same reason:
http://deadspin.com/is-peyton-mannings-single-season-yardage-record-a-lie-1491619362
http://deadspin.com/is-peyton-mannings-single-season-yardage-record-a-lie-1491619362
Think some of that negative sentiment around the 07 Pats team running it up had to do specifically with decisions to go for it on 4th down while holding huge leads. There was more to it than just the final margins of victory.
Look at the articles mascho linked to upthread. The 07 Pats went for it on 4th down in opposing territory with leads of 38-0, 45-0, 35-7, and 42-10.
I haven't watched Denver enough this year to know if they have gone for it on 4th down in any similar situation. Have they?
Look at the articles mascho linked to upthread. The 07 Pats went for it on 4th down in opposing territory with leads of 38-0, 45-0, 35-7, and 42-10.
I haven't watched Denver enough this year to know if they have gone for it on 4th down in any similar situation. Have they?
Dehere said:
Is it better to kick field goals and put more points on the board, or give your opponent the opportunity to stop you? And those times they went for it - how many were passes (just curious)?
So I just had xmas dinner with some distant relatives who are smart, normal ivy league grads from Philly and they informed me that the Pats won Superbowl XXXIV by spying on the eagles during halftime--we all know the pats are cheaters and they adjusted at halftime so well they just had to have spied. (When I said how did they spy--send a guy with a camera in during halftime? they said probably: they weren't sure how they spied, admitted that they had no evidence of spying, but they know for certain that the Pats did in fact spy).
When the media is so stupid for so long it creates an atmosphere where fans say stupid shit. I'll live but my life would have been just a little bit better if I could have had a conversation about football that didn't want me want to take a ball peen hammer to myself to end the pain.
But we'll never really know because tapes were destroyed!
WHAT WAS IN THE TAPES!?
When the media is so stupid for so long it creates an atmosphere where fans say stupid shit. I'll live but my life would have been just a little bit better if I could have had a conversation about football that didn't want me want to take a ball peen hammer to myself to end the pain.
But we'll never really know because tapes were destroyed!
WHAT WAS IN THE TAPES!?
I hate the Broncos, their horse faced GM (the conspiracy supporter in me is looking forward to the reports of the extra compensation that put them over the top for Manning to come out in a few years) and Bowlen family (who has only won titles when blatantly cheating the salary cap http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html) more than all of you combined, but the complaining about how your are perceived from Pats fans is unseemly. Fucking embrace the role as a team that everyone hates but respects, why do you need to be loved and feared? You have the best coach in NFL history, and got him as a retread, you have the greatest QB in history and got him with a 6th round pick that wasn't even consensus in your own draft room, you have had the best long term run of high level success in the modern NFL through three complete generations of players with only the QB and coach as consistency. In five or six years, this is all going to be over, and due to the NFL system, you are going to be mediocre at some point like everyone else and wish for the days when everyone hated you and made up excuses for why the Pats kicked their ass.
Relative to the 2013 Broncos, the 2007 Patriots actually had a defense and were more hateable for two reasons: they got caught "cheating" in a very unsophisticated and easy to explain way and they were so much more invincible than this Broncos team. Half of the talking heads you wish were slamming the Broncos will be picking the Pats in Denver in three weeks, and that is if the Broncos manage to get past Indy. Of course, it doesn't hurt that the NFL media establishment has been well cultivated by the Mannings and well taken care of by the Bowlen family.
Relative to the 2013 Broncos, the 2007 Patriots actually had a defense and were more hateable for two reasons: they got caught "cheating" in a very unsophisticated and easy to explain way and they were so much more invincible than this Broncos team. Half of the talking heads you wish were slamming the Broncos will be picking the Pats in Denver in three weeks, and that is if the Broncos manage to get past Indy. Of course, it doesn't hurt that the NFL media establishment has been well cultivated by the Mannings and well taken care of by the Bowlen family.
Is it so freaking wrong to simply ask that there be some consistency in the media? I don't care that the media hates the Patriots or whatever, I do care that there is some semblance of consistency in how teams are covered. Recent articles still mention Spygate, do any recent articles even mention the Broncos' salary cap violations? Why the double standard?
Dehere said:
This is complete fucking nonsense. Going for it on 4th down allows the other team to make a stop without allowing any points at all. It's actually giving the opponent a fighting chance to make the score more reasonable. And in those situations, the Pats usually gave the ball to Kyle Eckel, who was like their 5th string RB.
Going for it on 4th down is no indication of running up the score at all. Completely the opposite in fact. A FG is pretty much always 3 points on the board. The Pats were saying, here's a chance to get out of this game without allowing any more points.
Gunfighter 09 said:
This won't happen. Every single one of the ESPN jackasses picked the Pats to lose to Baltimore; they're certainly not going to pick the Pats to beat Denver in their own barn.
mascho said:
The media loves the Denver Broncos. Largely because of this guy:
They treat the scribes and TV guys right and it pays off. Al Davis spent years bitching about how he was treated by the media while running the worst press box in the league and treating them like vermin. The Broncos have take the opposite approach and it pays off.
tims4wins said:
I only looked at the four situations I referenced upthread. On those four fourth downs the Pats threw three times and ran once. On those four drives they ran about as much as they threw. Brady was still in the game for three of the drives, Cassel for one.
I don't know if it's better or more sportsmanlike to kick field goals in those situations. Personally I don't think there should be any expectation that players and coaches on the pro level should let up in a blowout situation, but a lot of fans don't see it that way. If the conversation is about why the 07 Pats got more criticism than this Bronco team for running it up you have to look at those drives as a factor. Had they tried FGs in all of those situations, no, I don't think they would have come under as much fire as they got and continue to get.
This would be a shame....DaughtersofDougMirabelli said:
There's a gif that shows it even better.
Definitely a backwards pass.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10217919/peyton-manning-denver-broncos-lose-passing-yards-record
Eh? He throws from the 48, caught at the 47. It's pretty clear. However, it's Manning, so I'll be interested to see what they do. If they take it away, I guarantee at least one article bitching about it.
I predict that we'll get a "not enough to overturn" even though it seems pretty clear.
In a just world, that's ruled a backward pass, because no reasonable mind could conclude otherwise. However, I'm not sure the NFL is a "just world". I agree with DD that the NFL will call it inconclusive and let the record stand (while most everyone else is left rolling their eyes and holding their nose).