2015 The Annual Coach Carousel Thread

GeorgeCostanza · Oct 11, 2015

I think the way obrien has handled the QB situation puts him in the hot seat unless they turn things around. His indecision/quick hook or whatever you want to call it has been disastrous. Makes him look foolish. L

luckiestman · Oct 11, 2015

BOB looks like a disaster to me, if I'm an owner watching him coach, this fool is gone. I think Rex is a worse coach but he fools so many people that he is good for business for a while. I can't believe Tomsula was hired in the first place so I have no read on that situation.

Edit: on Caldwell, I dont like him but his team just beat Seattle so I'll cut him some slack

JohnnyK · Oct 11, 2015

luckiestman said:
Edit: on Caldwell, I dont like him but his team just beat Seattle so I'll cut him some slack

What?

mauf · Oct 11, 2015

SeoulSoxFan said:
Hottest incumbent seat right now has to be Lions HC Jim Caldwell, followed by 49ers HC Jim Tomsula (can't see BoB not getting another year, so he's fairly low in my list).

Caldwell?? The Lions went 11-5 last year, their best season since 1991.

Tomsula was a terrible hire, but the Niners were a non-playoff team, so unless there's an ownership change, Tomsula is getting a second season unless he goes 3-13 or something (which can't be ruled out, but isn't exactly likely).

My hot-seat list:

Gus Bradley, Jacksonville: three straight non-playoff seasons normally gets you the axe; he might get a mulligan based on lack of talent, but the Jags need to take a big step in the right direction to save his job.

Jeff Fisher, St. Louis: After three straight losing seasons, he probably needs a playoff berth to save his job. That's not happening.

Jay Gruden, Washington: He deserves better, but after a 4-12 first season where he clashed with Snyder, Gruden probably needs to do better to keep his job than he can reasonably expect to do with the talent on hand.

Mike McCoy, San Diego. If he posts a losing record on the heels of back-to-back 9-7 seasons, I think ownership will opt for a change in direction.

riboflav · Oct 11, 2015

We can add Kevin Whisenhunt to the list after today's white flag approach to trying not to lose to the Bills. After 2-14 last year and a prime opportunity to take over the division, they'll be lucky to win 6 games. Some will disagree but you really had to see today's game to appreciate all the ways in which he turtled.

jsinger121 · Oct 11, 2015

maufman said:
Caldwell?? The Lions went 11-5 last year, their best season since 1991.

Tomsula was a terrible hire, but the Niners were a non-playoff team, so unless there's an ownership change, Tomsula is getting a second season unless he goes 3-13 or something (which can't be ruled out, but isn't exactly likely).

My hot-seat list:

Gus Bradley, Jacksonville: three straight non-playoff seasons normally gets you the axe; he might get a mulligan based on lack of talent, but the Jags need to take a big step in the right direction to save his job.

Jeff Fisher, St. Louis: After three straight losing seasons, he probably needs a playoff berth to save his job. That's not happening.

Jay Gruden, Washington: He deserves better, but after a 4-12 first season where he clashed with Snyder, Gruden probably needs to do better to keep his job than he can reasonably expect to do with the talent on hand.

Mike McCoy, San Diego. If he posts a losing record on the heels of back-to-back 9-7 seasons, I think ownership will opt for a change in direction.

Caldwell definitely deserves to be on this list. They are 0-5 and didn't even show up today at home. He sucks

mauf · Oct 11, 2015

OK, I feel differently about Caldwell after today's performance. That team is a train wreck right now.

Whisenhunt will be fine so long as Mariota is making progress.

luckiestman · Oct 11, 2015

maufman said:
OK, I feel differently about Caldwell after today's performance. That team is a train wreck right now.

Whisenhunt will be fine so long as Mariota is making progress.

Does Whisenhunt have to send Kurt Warner half his salary every year he remains a head coach? Because I think the only reason this guy has a job is that sb run

edmunddantes · Oct 11, 2015

I think Andy Reid's seat has to be feeling fairly hot.

What does he bring bring to the table that a replacement level coach doesn't at this point?

dbn · Oct 12, 2015

edmunddantes said:
I think Andy Reid's seat has to be feeling fairly hot.

What does he bring bring to the table that a replacement level coach doesn't at this point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Reid#Head_coaching_record

Kenny F'ing Powers · Oct 12, 2015

JohnnyK said:
What?

Give him a break. They all look alike.

mauf · Oct 12, 2015

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Give him a break. They all look alike.

I initially thought it was a glib allusion to the controversy last Monday, but I might have been giving him too much credit.

mauf · Oct 12, 2015

luckiestman said:
Does Whisenhunt have to send Kurt Warner half his salary every year he remains a head coach? Because I think the only reason this guy has a job is that sb run

Whisenhunt's teams have done reasonably well when he's had a modicum of QB talent. He even went 8-8 in 2011 with John Skelton taking the bulk of the snaps. He's no BB, but if I ranked the league's HCs from 1 to 32, Whisenhunt would rank right around the middle. I'm pretty sure there isn't a top-10 guy pining to take his talents to Nashville, especially if ownership is perceived as impatient (which would be the case of Whisenhunt got sacked after this season, unless teams figure out Mariota and the rest of the season is a tire fire).

luckiestman · Oct 12, 2015

Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Give him a break. They all look alike.

Before I respond, what am I being accused of?

RIrooter09 · Oct 12, 2015

luckiestman said:
Before I respond, what am I being accused of?

Confusing Jim Caldwell and Marvin Lewis.

luckiestman · Oct 12, 2015

RIrooter09 said:
Confusing Jim Caldwell and Marvin Lewis.

Oh I see, well if Kens making a joke fine. But to clarify since I think a lot of dudes that post on this forum are on the spectrum, my post was referring to the lions beating the squawks(though unofficial). the bengals game had just started when the post was made.

edmunddantes · Oct 12, 2015

dbn said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Reid#Head_coaching_record

Yeah... nothing in there in the past 5 years (or more if you want to count the years the Eagles made playoffs and lost in Wild card) that comes anywhere close to justifying him keeping his job in KC.

For the 3rd highest paid coach in the league you are getting inexplicable play calling, insanely bad clock management, and teams that underachieve.

I could understand if he was taking mediocre talented teams and coaching them up to playoff runs, but not quite making it over the hump.

However, it appears especially the Kansas City years he's taking fairly talented teams and done his best to sabotage them as much as possible with the fore-mentioned play calling and clock management issues.

mauf · Oct 12, 2015

Tom Coughlin hasn't been mentioned. If the Giants win their division, that should ensure that Coughlin leaves on his own terms (I can't see him coaching more than two seasons after this one), but if he misses the playoffs for a fourth straight season, I wonder if the Mara family's patience will finally come to an end.

mauf · Oct 12, 2015

edmunddantes said:
Yeah... nothing in there in the past 5 years (or more if you want to count the years the Eagles made playoffs and lost in Wild card) that comes anywhere close to justifying him keeping his job in KC.

You aren't serious, are you?

Andy Reid is terrible at clock management, but that's a small part of being a head coach. He took over a KC team that was a laughingstock and went 20-12 in his first two seasons, despite having a below-average QB. I'd be hard-pressed to name five NFL head coaches not in their first year with their current teams whose jobs are as secure as Reid's.

Edit: Make that six -- BB, Carroll, Arians, Harbaugh, McCarthy and Rivera. (Tomlin and Kelly are in the same boat as Reid -- secure for now, but not hard to see them on the hot seat a year from now.)

Silverdude2167 · Oct 12, 2015

maufman said:
You aren't serious, are you?

Andy Reid is terrible at clock management, but that's a small part of being a head coach. He took over a KC team that was a laughingstock and went 20-12 in his first two seasons, despite having a below-average QB. I'd be hard-pressed to name five NFL head coaches not in their first year with their current teams whose jobs are as secure as Reid's.

I don't disagree with your overall point about Reid's job being secure, but I think for him his time management is a huge issue and more than a small part of being a head coach.

They lost the Denver game because of it. Denver scored 28 points ~within the final two minutes of each half. And go back to the Pats Eagles Superbowl. He cost them any chance of winning that game with him time management in the 4th quarter.

edmunddantes · Oct 12, 2015

maufman said:
You aren't serious, are you?

Andy Reid is terrible at clock management, but that's a small part of being a head coach. He took over a KC team that was a laughingstock and went 20-12 in his first two seasons, despite having a below-average QB. I'd be hard-pressed to name five NFL head coaches not in their first year with their current teams whose jobs are as secure as Reid's.

Edit: Make that six -- BB, Carroll, Arians, Harbaugh, McCarthy and Rivera. (Tomlin and Kelly are in the same boat as Reid -- secure for now, but not hard to see them on the hot seat a year from now.)

I'm not just putting it all on his time management. His play calling is abysmal. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

And Alex Smith is more than serviceable and is not a below average QB.

troparra · Oct 12, 2015

maufman said:
Caldwell?? The Lions went 11-5 last year, their best season since 1991.

I live in Michigan, and out here nobody cares about last year. They care about shit like this:

With a little more than 11 minutes remaining in the second quarter, and the score tied at seven, the Lions came out with three receivers, one tight end and running back Ameer Abdullah alone in the backfield.
Cardinals defensive line coach Brentson Buckner identified the formation and began shouting from the Arizona benches, alerting his unit that Detroit would be attempting a screen pass to Abdullah.
"Buck called it out from the sidelines, 'Screen! Screen!' He saw the formation, saw the guy crossing," Arians said. "We still have to catch it."
And catch it defensive tackle Cory Redding did.
The former Lions player popped around a block by rookie Laken Tomlinson and into quarterback Matthew Stafford's passing lane, getting a hand on the throw, tipping it to himself and racing toward the end zone.
Redding was eventually dumped by Stafford at the 4-yard line, but the Cardinals punched it in on the next play, taking the lead and never looking back.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2015/10/arizona_cardinals_coach_predic.html

Or this:

Detroit Lions receiver Golden Tate told 105.1 FM in Detroit that he's had defensive players tell him in all three games that they knew what was coming.
"I've had a couple occasions in literally each game where they called out our play, for one, then afterwards been like, 'Hey, we knew what you guys were doing,'" Tate told Matt Dery on Tuesday afternoon. "I don't know how they know, or what film they're watching that we're giving away. That's something we got to go back and watch our tendencies to figure out where we line up or how we line up or what formation or whatever it may be.
"We've got to figure it out because we're clearly giving it away. All three weeks, a player's come up to me and said, 'We knew where you were going to.' That's bad."

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2015/09/report_broncos_safety_knew_lio.html

Interestingly, from the second article there is this quote:

"It was just a formation where we knew what was coming," [Broncos' safety David] Bruton told reporters on Monday, according to MileHighSports.com. "They've had a high tendency to show a particular play, especially a wrap-six, so usually the No. 2 receiver sits down about 5 or 6 yards with a guy running a dig route right behind it.
"We were just alert, and once I saw the running back chip before his release, I knew what was coming. So I just read Stafford's eyes, broke on the ball and was able to make a play."

Apparently, you can figure out what play a team is going to run even if you don't steal their playbook and film their practices. Who knew?

luckiestman · Oct 12, 2015

edmunddantes said:
I'm not just putting it all on his time management. His play calling is abysmal. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

And Alex Smith is more than serviceable and is not a below average QB.

I don't think Alex Smith is as good as a healthy Chad Pennington so he's ok but not top tier

I can't figure Reid out. He's like a level below Marty where he can't do the right thing at the right time. It is some kind of Sisyphus situation.

edmunddantes · Oct 12, 2015

luckiestman said:
I don't think Alex Smith is as good as a healthy Chad Pennington so he's ok but not top tier

I can't figure Reid out. He's like a level below Marty where he can't do the right thing at the right time. It is some kind of Sisyphus situation.

No one I know is claiming he is top tier, but to call him below average QB as was done to above is going a bit far.

It's my only point with that part of it.

I just feel like the KC teams have severely underachieved considering the amount of decent talent they have, and a lot of it can be laid at the feet of the poor coaching that Andy Reid inevitably ends up committing without fail.

mauf · Oct 12, 2015

edmunddantes said:
No one I know is claiming he is top tier, but to call him below average QB as was done to above is going a bit far.

16 QBs I'd rather have, off the top of my head:

TB12
Rodgers
P. Manning
Brees
Luck
Roethlisberger
Dalton
Flacco
Rivers
E. Manning
Romo
Stafford
Ryan
Newton
Wilson
Palmer

Those are the easy ones -- I'd probably take Tannehill, Bortles, Carr, Bridgewater and Foles over Alex Smith too.

Smith isn't awful, and that's important -- the difference between average and below-average QB play is much smaller than the difference between below-average and terrible QB play.

I just feel like the KC teams have severely underachieved considering the amount of decent talent they have, and a lot of it can be laid at the feet of the poor coaching that Andy Reid inevitably ends up committing without fail.

You might "feel" that way, but the Chiefs won a total of 27 games in the 5 seasons prior to Reid's arrival, compared to 20 wins in Reid's first two seasons.

The Chiefs are underachieving now, and if that continues Reid will be on the hot seat this time next year. For now, however, his job is safe, and there are good reasons for that.

soxfan121 · Oct 12, 2015

edmunddantes said:
No one I know is claiming he is top tier, but to call him below average QB as was done to above is going a bit far.

Alex Smith sucks.

dbn · Oct 13, 2015

edmunddantes said:
Yeah... nothing in there in the past 5 years (or more if you want to count the years the Eagles made playoffs and lost in Wild card) that comes anywhere close to justifying him keeping his job in KC.

For the 3rd highest paid coach in the league you are getting inexplicable play calling, insanely bad clock management, and teams that underachieve.

I could understand if he was taking mediocre talented teams and coaching them up to playoff runs, but not quite making it over the hump.

However, it appears especially the Kansas City years he's taking fairly talented teams and done his best to sabotage them as much as possible with the fore-mentioned play calling and clock management issues.

FTR, I posted that link to his record in response to your comment insinuating that he was a replacement level coach, which he clearly isn't. I agree that he isn't an elite coach any more, but don't move the goalposts.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/91554-2015-the-annual-coach-carousel-thread/?p=6273149

edmunddantes · Oct 13, 2015

You're the one moving the goalposts. Go back at re-read what I wrote. You then posted your list of wins thing as if that somehow proves a point. I said "at this point". Which means currently. Which means we agree since you just stated he's not elite anymore.

I went and read the wins link. I then revised after going back at looking at those late Philly years to last 5 years. The context is then a guy that was trending downwards for awhile. With a new place, new regime pop, reverting back to his downward trend. I just don't see anything that shows him coaching guys up beyond some normal coach or some killer scheme or anything really.

You've done nothing to answer the question as to what he brings AT THIS POINT (so you don't miss it this time) that a replacement coach doesn't. Especially considering for those 5 plus year he's being paid elite Top 3-5 money.

I won't deny he wasn't a great coach, but part of me even wonders now about those Philly years. Did he have it back then and lost it? Did he never have it and elite talent covered up his mistakes? Did his motivations of players lose its appeal as the generations changed? Is his scheme been caught up to and he just can't adapt? No idea, but right now I don't see him as above replacement level.

In fact we can actively point to numerous games where his actual play calling and time management have caused them to lose chances to win games.

mauf · Oct 13, 2015

The money Reid is getting has more to do with the tire fire he inherited than anything else. The Chiefs had to overpay to land anyone who had other head coaching options.

(Edit: Not so much talking about the talent level, which wasn't as bad as you'd expect given the lack of on-field success, but the disastrous culture that Pioli had created, not to mention the Jovan Belcher murder-suicide.)

soxfan121 · Oct 13, 2015

edmunddantes said:
In fact we can actively point to numerous games where his actual play calling and time management have caused them to lose chances to win games.

We can but this is not among the top-5 competencies for a head coach. Reid is bad at clock management and coaching challenges. Reid is a very good play caller. He's excellent at managing a locker room, handling players, dealing with the media, and building offensive game plans.

The idea that clock management is as important as handling players/the locker room is ludacrisp. Fans rarely get this, because it isn't quantifiable or happening on their TV. But job #1 for any coach or manager is handling people, and Reid's skills there massively outweigh his struggles with the red flag.

edmunddantes · Oct 13, 2015

edmunddantes said:
You're the one moving the goalposts. Go back at re-read what I wrote. You then posted your list of wins thing as if that somehow proves a point. I said "at this point". Which means currently. Which means we agree since you just stated he's not elite anymore.

I went and read the wins link. I then revised after going back at looking at those late Philly years to last 5 years. The context is then a guy that was trending downwards for awhile. With a new place, new regime pop, reverting back to his downward trend. I just don't see anything that shows him coaching guys up beyond some normal coach or some killer scheme or anything really.

You've done nothing to answer the question as to what he brings AT THIS POINT (so you don't miss it this time) that a replacement coach doesn't. Especially considering for those 5 plus year he's being paid elite Top 3-5 money.

I won't deny he wasn't a great coach, but part of me even wonders now about those Philly years. Did he have it back then and lost it? Did he never have it and elite talent covered up his mistakes? Did his motivations of players lose its appeal as the generations changed? Is his scheme been caught up to and he just can't adapt? No idea, but right now I don't see him as above replacement level.

In fact we can actively point to numerous games where his actual play calling and time management have caused them to lose chances to win games.

soxfan121 said:
We can but this is not among the top-5 competencies for a head coach. Reid is bad at clock management and coaching challenges. Reid is a very good play caller. He's excellent at managing a locker room, handling players, dealing with the media, and building offensive game plans.

The idea that clock management is as important as handling players/the locker room is ludacrisp. Fans rarely get this, because it isn't quantifiable or happening on their TV. But job #1 for any coach or manager is handling people, and Reid's skills there massively outweigh his struggles with the red flag.

Seriously. Am I typing in some foreign language?

Where do I state this is simply about time management? I have been mentioning throughout that his play calling is also suspect, and I wonder about other aspects.

But let's take this back a step. You would be okay with having a coach that actively loses games because of a none top 5 competency so long as he handled people right? So if I had a team that would go 10-6 maybe in the playoffs, but is now 8-8 out of the playoffs because of poor clock management you'd be happy?

Do you know what is one of my top 5 competencies for a head coach? Not losing games (or not even giving yourself a chance to win games) because you can't manage the clock, but I'm weird like that. I want my coach to contribute to wins and not losses.

But to be clear, this is not simply about his time management. It appears (maybe it was always there and he had elite player talent, etc that covered it up) something has changed for Andy Reid in the past 5 years or so. Maybe the NFL has caught up to his play calling, maybe caught up to his scheme, maybe he can't motivate this generation of players, etc, and he's not adapting. To be clear, it's not only about time management.

At this point, I don't see what he brings to the table that you can't find anywhere else. I'd be fine to have that conversation about what I'm actually talking about if anyone cares to have it, but so far people are spending time arguing against something I'm not even saying. People are laser focused on something I either never claimed (once elite discussion), or ignoring parts where I state this isn't just about time management (ludacris to put clock management as top 5).

We can agree to disagree, but let's stop arguing against things I haven't actually said or made my arguments about.

soxfan121 · Oct 13, 2015

edmunddantes said:
Seriously. Am I typing in some foreign language?

Where do I state this is simply about time management? I have been mentioning throughout that his play calling is also suspect, and I wonder about other aspects.

edmunddantes said:
In fact we can actively point to numerous games where his actual play calling and time management have caused them to lose chances to win games.

You can be stupid. You can be aggressive. But don't be aggressively stupid.

Why don't you sit the next few plays out, Champ?

edmunddantes · Oct 13, 2015

soxfan121 said:
You can be stupid. You can be aggressive. But don't be aggressively stupid.

Why don't you sit the next few plays out, Champ?

Are you that fucking obtuse? You quote a line for me where I actively call out play calling, in addition to time management, as an indictment of me only talking about time management?

I didn't realize I was dealing with Roger Goodell.

How about you actually reading what I write, Champ?

tims4wins · Oct 13, 2015

Well played with the Goodell line

Marciano490 · Oct 13, 2015

tims4wins said:
Well played with the Goodell line

He's the ginger Hitler.

dcmissle · Oct 13, 2015

Cherry on sundae is the fact that Reid probably has < 5% chance of getting fired.

edmunddantes · Oct 13, 2015

Funny thing is I would agree with you. I never said he would get fired.

My original point is that his seat should be getting fairly hot. Plenty of guys have had hot seats and not gotten fired. Having a hot seat is not the same thing as saying you will get fired. It's saying there's a chance if you keep it up you will get fired. Part of that calculus in the original post, which I admit was in my mind and not explicit till later, is that the owner has to be wondering what am I actually getting for my elite level Top 3 coaches' contract dollars.

It then devolved into two people critiquing things I didn't actually write with responses, and me trying to figure out how that had any bearing on what I said at all.

soxfan121 · Oct 13, 2015

edmunddantes said:
It then devolved into two people critiquing things I didn't actually write with responses, and me trying to figure out how that had any bearing on what I said at all.

Based on your level of demonstrated reading comprehension - of your own, and others, posts - you'll be tryin to figger it for a while.

Read more, post less. It's good for the soul.

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