2015 Women's World Cup

Cellar-Door

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Gunfighter 09 said:
I could be wrong here, and please correct me if I am, but wouldn't MLS getting to a level that is even with the big 5 leagues in Europe (or at least Italy/France) be the single best thing that could happen to US Soccer in terms of getting the men's national team to a level close to where the women are today?
hypothetically maybe, but it's going to take decades, and a complete restructuring of how the league works to get there.
Though even then maybe not. Some of the best national teams in the world aren't associated with a top league. Better development with a second tier league works just fine for Brazil and Argentina. Colombia and Uruguay have not much in terms of leagues. In Europe Belgium's league isn't great. Those are all probably top 10 national teams.
 
MLS as currently constructed is good in some ways for getting a lot more American players professional experience. However bringing in former stars and bringing home the best National Team players don't really help US development. It helps sell tickets, but it doesn't make them a viable option for top foreign players in their primes, and it probably doesn't really help the development of a lot of USMNT players to play in a league that outside a few stars is probably not one of the 20 best leagues in the world.
 
Edit- to clarify more: The best leagues don't necessarily create better players. A country can be just as successful developing great players and send them to another country for club soccer as by having a great club league. If there is an advantage to a great league it is that there is a lot of money to put into youth development. However one thing happening in England recently is that the truly Mega clubs like Man City don't have youth players develop because the rosters are completely full of top 100 in the world talent and no 17 year old can compete with that.
 

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Gunfighter 09 said:
I could be wrong here, and please correct me if I am, but wouldn't MLS getting to a level that is even with the big 5 leagues in Europe (or at least Italy/France) be the single best thing that could happen to US Soccer in terms of getting the men's national team to a level close to where the women are today?
If it's primarily US players making up the league, and they can get to that level, it would be great.  If the biggest stars are foreign players, maybe not.
 
Does the EPL help the English team? Some would say yes because the level of play is high, some would say that the amount of money spent on foreign players by top teams makes it harder for English talent to break through.
 
Club sides and national sides have different goals when it comes to player development, and that is what often causes tension between clubs and national federations.
 

Dehere

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SoxFanInCali said:
If it's primarily US players making up the league, and they can get to that level, it would be great.  If the biggest stars are foreign players, maybe not.
Novice opinion here but it seems like US soccer might benefit from having one dominant MLS team that would attract much of the USMNT talent, like a lesser version of Bayern, where that core group would play a league schedule, a champions league schedule, and an international schedule together year after year. The Bayern players who also play on the German national team might play 60 matches a year together. But my understanding of the MLS model is that no one team will ever be able to outspend the others that way, and if competitive balance is the priority I don't know how the league will ever greatly benefit the national team.

It seems like there's an assumption among American sports fans - not soccer diehards but fans generally - that it's inevitable and only a matter of time until the US excels at the very highest level of men's soccer but it seems to me that we may have gone as far as we can under our current soccer infrastructure. It seems possible that this is about as good as US soccer will be in my lifetime, excepting maybe a one-time deep run in the WC when it is again played in the US. Maybe that's too negative and I'd like to believe otherwise.
 

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I have no delusions of winning the WC but suggesting we've reached some kind of plateau is really pessimistic (unless you have a short time to live, in which case...sorry).

The USMNT didn't play a single WC match between 1950 and 1990. The domestic league is only 20 years old. Serious widespread interest in the team about 13 years old ('02 run) and only recently has it become a sustained interest. Until VERY recently the idea of winning games in Europe against pretty much any vaguely competent European side was laughable.

Relatively speaking, it's taken a pretty short time to go from happy-to-be-here newcomers to automatic qualifiers to CONCACAF powerhouse (I know). Next step is getting through the group stage without giving us all heart attacks.

It feels like massive progress to have someone like Donovan retire and not worry at all that it'll send the program into the tank. It'll still be awhile before we have a Lukaku coming off the bench instead of a Wondo (or Wood, or Ching, etc etc) but I feel pretty confident in saying that we're still trending up.
 

DJnVa

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This is entirely unrealistic in the US development system today.  Kids who don't pay to play don't make it. 
 

Yep. On travel clubs, even the top ones, the teams are made up of good players whose parents can afford it and less than decent players whose parents can afford it.
 
My kid plays U18 Academy for an NPSL club and the guy running it told us that while he'd love to make it free there's no way they can do that, which means kids are going to fall through the cracks.
 

Titans Bastard

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Dehere said:
Novice opinion here but it seems like US soccer might benefit from having one dominant MLS team that would attract much of the USMNT talent, like a lesser version of Bayern, where that core group would play a league schedule, a champions league schedule, and an international schedule together year after year. The Bayern players who also play on the German national team might play 60 matches a year together. But my understanding of the MLS model is that no one team will ever be able to outspend the others that way, and if competitive balance is the priority I don't know how the league will ever greatly benefit the national team.

It seems like there's an assumption among American sports fans - not soccer diehards but fans generally - that it's inevitable and only a matter of time until the US excels at the very highest level of men's soccer but it seems to me that we may have gone as far as we can under our current soccer infrastructure. It seems possible that this is about as good as US soccer will be in my lifetime, excepting maybe a one-time deep run in the WC when it is again played in the US. Maybe that's too negative and I'd like to believe otherwise.
 
I completely agree that any sense of inevitability around the rise of American soccer should be viewed with skepticism.  Inertia isn't going to carry the day.  Plus, other countries are improving too.  Standing still means you fall behind. However, I do think there's reason for some optimism at the moment.
 
MLS teams have collectively started to invest a lot of money in player development.  They are going to have to lead the way in the US, just like professional clubs spearhead development in every other country in the world.  As has been discussed here, when you have youth-only clubs, there are a lot of problems with the incentive structure of their business model, especially given the quirks of the US.
 
  • All MLS teams have academies that stretch down to age 13 or so and many field younger teams as well and/or have partnerships with other local clubs
  • Almost all of them are free of charge.  DC United is one exception that I know of; unsurprising because they are the most financially hobbled in the league.  That will probably change when their stadium is built.
  • LA started a USL (third division minor league) franchise in 2014 as a stepping stone between the U18s and the first team.  Seven other MLS teams (TOR, VAN, MTL, POR, SEA, RSL, NYRB) followed suit in 2015 and at least one more is starting one next year (ORL).  This provides a much-needed stepping stone for players to advance from the U18s into the pro game -- signing with an MLS team and skipping the NCAA doesn't do much good if you sit on the bench for three years.  Players need games and now they are getting them.
  • RSL has established a residential academy in Casa Grande, AZ.  Their U18s utterly smashed the USSDA competition this season, even without some top players who are with RSL's first team or USL team (Sebastian Saucedo, Justen Glad, Fito Ovalle) or who have signed overseas (Josh Doughty, Man United [he's Canadian]).  They have been able to recruit players from across the country and have nabbed some players from underserved areas.
  • LA is establishing a HS near their stadium to follow RSL's lead of building a residency option
  • Columbus hired away a (supposedly) top youth coach from Valencia.  DC has a guy with a long track record at Ajax.  We need more hires like this, veteran development guys who can coach the coaches.
  • A bunch of teams have affiliate clubs across the country that have allowed them to ID and recruit talent.  FC Dallas has two players on their MLS roster who moved to Dallas from El Paso (Alejandro Zendejas) and Abingdon, VA (Coy Craft).
 
Much of this didn't exist 2-3 years ago.
 
After a slow, cautious, conservative buildup, teams are investing more money in development and they're being smarter about it.  They still need to make better hires (too many inexperienced people in senior positions and too many nepotism/crony hires) and invest in youth coaching, but the pathways to the pros and options that kids have now are better than ever before.  What I want to see is one team in MLS really reap the rewards of their academy in a way that forces other teams to follow suit to keep up.  Teams like RSL, LA, NYRB, and Dallas seem like leading candidates.  Seattle is also doing well and DC doesn't have a lot of quantity but they've produced two gems so far (Hamid & Najar).
 
I follow youth national teams pretty closely and I can tell you that the number of teenagers playing regularly in the pros is way higher than it has ever been before.  Time will tell whether just that change alone makes a mark.  Player development is a complicated challenge and traditionally the US has had struggles in all elements of it (early skills development, learning tactics in teenage years, the 18-21 "gap" inadequately served by both the NCAA and MLS).
 
Improvements in any of those categories would be huge for us.  I think we're finally fixing the 18-21 "gap" by using the USL as a stepping stone.  The earlier phases are hard to judge without being deeply embedded in the coaching scene (and even then, you'd probably only have a regional perspective).
 

Titans Bastard

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And now, something about the women:
 
Lauren Holiday has announced she's retiring from the USWNT.  She's only 27, so she probably would have had another WC in her if she wanted.
 

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Titans Bastard said:
And now, something about the women:
 
Lauren Holiday has announced she's retiring from the USWNT.  She's only 27, so she probably would have had another WC in her if she wanted.
For those that may not know, she
 
1) is married to fellow Bruin Jrue and has endorsement deals with Chobani and Under Armour
2) had open heart surgery at 3 years old
 

SoxFanInCali

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Titans Bastard said:
And now, something about the women:
 
Lauren Holiday has announced she's retiring from the USWNT.  She's only 27, so she probably would have had another WC in her if she wanted.
Yeah, I watched that Fox Sports 1 wrap-up show where they gave the team members their jerseys with the 3rd star.  Ellis was presenting the jerseys and hugging each of them, and you could pick up a few things she said to each player as she did.  When Holiday went up I heard Ellis say something like "what a way for you to go out". I was surprised because, as you said, she's only 27.  It's also unusual to retire after the World Cup with only 1 more year until the Olympics.
 
She's married to Jrue Holiday of the Pelicans, so maybe she wants to spend more time with him or start a family.
 

Dehere

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Titans Bastard said:
 
However, I do think there's reason for some optimism at the moment.
Thank you for that detailed and thoughtful reply. Honestly, I always learn something from your posts in this forum.
 

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Titans Bastard said:
Much of this didn't exist 2-3 years ago.
 
Great post. I try to keep up with youth soccer development in the US and some of that was new to me.
 
Here is good article on youth soccer. The firm Double Pass, which was responsible for revamping both Belgium and Germany's soccer academies, now has a contract with the US.
 

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Titans Bastard said:
...awesome post...
 
I can't help but think that, while all of that will help, the US team won't make it over that hump until the "soccer is boring and stupid" mentality that is so pervasive begins to die out. The financial clout that the NFL, for example, can wield would go a really long way toward making the US a powerhouse on the international stage. Imagine the youth academies and developmental leagues that would exist if MLS teams could make money hand-over-fist.
 
Soccer's popularity in the US is growing and the USMNT's improvement has helped that in no small way but I have a feeling that becoming more mainstream will be what the team needs to jump to the next tier.
 

Section30

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I think the base is here for sustained growth of Soccer.
 
..."According to the 2014 ESPN Sports Poll, a survey of more than 400,000 people that measures sports fandom, professional soccer ranked as the No. 2 sport, behind pro football, among 12- to 17-year-olds. The survey found that Major League Soccer was as popular as Major League Baseball among the same age group."
 
from today's Wall Street Journal
 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/has-soccer-finally-made-it-in-the-u-s-1436395661
 

Spacemans Bong

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Section30 said:
I think the base is here for sustained growth of Soccer.
 
..."According to the 2014 ESPN Sports Poll, a survey of more than 400,000 people that measures sports fandom, professional soccer ranked as the No. 2 sport, behind pro football, among 12- to 17-year-olds. The survey found that Major League Soccer was as popular as Major League Baseball among the same age group."
 
from today's Wall Street Journal
 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/has-soccer-finally-made-it-in-the-u-s-1436395661
 
 
Written by the same British guy who said American soccer fans were lameo and embarrassing last year. 
 

Bosoxen

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Section30 said:
I think the base is here for sustained growth of Soccer.
 
..."According to the 2014 ESPN Sports Poll, a survey of more than 400,000 people that measures sports fandom, professional soccer ranked as the No. 2 sport, behind pro football, among 12- to 17-year-olds. The survey found that Major League Soccer was as popular as Major League Baseball among the same age group."
 
from today's Wall Street Journal
 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/has-soccer-finally-made-it-in-the-u-s-1436395661
 
That base has been there for a while, though. According to usyouthsoccer.org, registration hasn't changed one bit over the past 15 years. Those three million kids that played soccer in the year 2000 haven't exactly translated into MLS becoming a juggernaut. Kids will have a tendency to be more into the sports that they play, so that statistic can only tell part of the story. It's a snapshot that is very likely to change when those kids get older and have more exposure to the "soccer is boring and you're stupid for liking it" mentality.
 
I hope I'm wrong but that mentality is still too pervasive for me to see soccer becoming anywhere near mainstream anytime soon.
 
Spacemans Bong said:
Written by the same British guy who said American soccer fans were lameo and embarrassing last year. 
 
Yeah, but he's right about that. </burn>
 

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I downloaded the BBC version of the final just to hear the different calls of the goals.  The difference in quality was obvious.  When the US was setting up for the free kick that resulted in the second goal, they were flabbergasted that Japan wasn't closely marking Lloyd after she had just scored when starting from that same position 2 minutes earlier.  Of course, seconds later she scored again.
 
I hope Fox goes the ESPN route and brings in some outsiders for the 2018 Cup.
 

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Bosoxen said:
 
That base has been there for a while, though. According to usyouthsoccer.org, registration hasn't changed one bit over the past 15 years. Those three million kids that played soccer in the year 2000 haven't exactly translated into MLS becoming a juggernaut. Kids will have a tendency to be more into the sports that they play, so that statistic can only tell part of the story. It's a snapshot that is very likely to change when those kids get older and have more exposure to the "soccer is boring and you're stupid for liking it" mentality.
 
I hope I'm wrong but that mentality is still too pervasive for me to see soccer becoming anywhere near mainstream anytime soon.
  </burn>
I think we're on the cusp of soccer becoming mainstream in the US. The main concrete thing I can point to is Fox Sports picking up the Premier League- that's huge for US exposure.

On the other hand, the champions league final matched its viewership from four years ago coming off the 2010 World Cup. http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2015/06/uefa-champions-league-ratings-fox-barcelona-juventus-ties-highest-overnight/
It will be interesting to see if that event goes up next year or whether it sinks down again.

Edit: I think the 2016 Champions League final will be a bit of a bellwether. If viewership increases from this year I think it signals increasing momentum for soccer in the US. Of course the teams in it have an effect too- Barca may be driving interest. We will see.

Edit2: there is expected to be a bidding war for the US Premier League TV rights: http://www.thestreet.com/story/13209873/1/foxs-world-cup-success-points-to-big-bids-for-english-premier-league.html
That's a good sign for the rise of soccer here.
 

Titans Bastard

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Bosoxen said:
 
 It's a snapshot that is very likely to change when those kids get older and have more exposure to the "soccer is boring and you're stupid for liking it" mentality.
 
I hope I'm wrong but that mentality is still too pervasive for me to see soccer becoming anywhere near mainstream anytime soon.
 
I think the culture around soccer is an issue, but I'd reframe the problem somewhat.  I don't think kids are quitting because they're being told it's boring.  The Jim Rome / Dan Shaughnessy media moron type doesn't hold much influence over HS aged kids.
 
It all comes down to coaching, player development, and culture.  I wrote earlier about some of the things that MLS clubs are doing to bolster player development.  As a country, there's a lot more to be done.  There's a reason why many of the best US players are second-generation immigrants.  They are exposed to the soccer knowledge of their relatives and benefit from that from an early age.  It's hard to play catchup if a good player doesn't have good coaching until age 12 -- or later.
 
It's generational.  My parents know nothing about the game - as is typical of non-immigrant Baby Boomer types.  The next generation of kids will have parents who know more about the sport and there's soooooo much more soccer available on TV and in person now.  It all filters down, but slowly.  Soccer has always existed in the immigrant fringes of the US, but it takes a long time to build a mainstream understanding of the game.
 
Part of this process is organic and takes time.  Think about how many American ex-pros there are now - the number grows every year.  Many of them stay in the game.  We generally forget about all except those in pro managerial positions, but tons of them are youth coaches.  Not necessarily the best ones in the world, but they have experienced a higher level of play than the US coaching generation that preceded them.
 
The #1 job for the USSF should be to do what they can to accelerate the process.  Invest in coaching, invest in the grassroots.
 
 
 
Side note - speaking of development, DFW produces way more talent than Houston.  I've always wondered why that is.
 

Bosoxen

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Sorry for the quick drive by response, I'm gearing up for Mexico.

It's likely that DFW develops more talent because there's a massive Hispanic community here. That's not to say that Houston doesn't have its fair share but we are very well represented in DFW. Ft Worth, in particular, has a huge community.

That kind of goes back to your point about the immigrant fringe. Soccer is immensely popular here and you're just as likely to find a large complex of soccer fields as baseball fields.
 

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Fair point, She might be able to choke me hard enough with her hands alone. I sometimes forget to leave the belt on the nightstand.
 

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World Cup top goal scorer, Sasic from Germany, decided to retire from all football at just 27 - according to the BBC.
 

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SoxFanInCali

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Titans Bastard said:
 
This brings up the question of whether the league is ever going to be viable.
 
I love watching the USWNT in the World Cup and Olympics, and I'll try to catch friendlies when they are on TV. I DVR'd the final against Japan and have watched the first 15 minutes 7 or 8 times. I downloaded a copy of the BBC broadcast of the game so I could hear a different version of the goal calls. I think Sydney Leroux and Megan Klingenberg are awesome Twitter follows. That said, I just don't care about watching a game between the Portland Thorns and the Western New York Flash. I MIGHT watch the championship game if it is on TV, but I can't see myself following a team for a whole season.
 
I realize I may not be the key demographic for the league, but in a crowded sports calendar, is there enough room for a six-months-a-year women's soccer league? Or is it destined to be like swimming, track, and other Olympic sports where we just want to wave the flag and root for our country once or twice every 4 years?
 

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SoxFanInCali said:
 
This brings up the question of whether the league is ever going to be viable.
 
I love watching the USWNT in the World Cup and Olympics, and I'll try to catch friendlies when they are on TV. I DVR'd the final against Japan and have watched the first 15 minutes 7 or 8 times. I downloaded a copy of the BBC broadcast of the game so I could hear a different version of the goal calls. I think Sydney Leroux and Megan Klingenberg are awesome Twitter follows. That said, I just don't care about watching a game between the Portland Thorns and the Western New York Flash. I MIGHT watch the championship game if it is on TV, but I can't see myself following a team for a whole season.
 
I realize I may not be the key demographic for the league, but in a crowded sports calendar, is there enough room for a six-months-a-year women's soccer league? Or is it destined to be like swimming, track, and other Olympic sports where we just want to wave the flag and root for our country once or twice every 4 years?
Considering the league dujour folds every few years only to be revived and they don't pay anyone a living wage (the federations pay the USWNT, Canadians and a few others to play in the league) it isn't viable now. I doubt it ever will be long term. If anything I think long term the Euro leagues associated with the top men's clubs are more likely to survive and flourish.
 

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Cellar-Door said:
Considering the league dujour folds every few years only to be revived and they don't pay anyone a living wage (the federations pay the USWNT, Canadians and a few others to play in the league) it isn't viable now. I doubt it ever will be long term. If anything I think long term the Euro leagues associated with the top men's clubs are more likely to survive and flourish.
Survive, perhaps, but it may be a reach to say they can flourish. Liverpool and Arsenal's women's teams played a week after the World Cup ended, and the attendance was 2,061. That is the 2nd-highest attended game in the entire league this season.
 
That article above was interesting to read. I knew the national team players made much more than the non-internationals, but I didn't realize just how big the gap was. Six figure salaries up to almost $300K for the USWNT vs. as low as $6,800 and a maximum of $37,800 for the others.
 

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soxfan121 said:
 
My god, why? Did USA Soccer watch any of the games? She's probably good at squad management but she was hopelessly overmatched tactically.
 
Did you really expect that she would not get an extension after winning the World Cup?
 

soxfan121

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I hoped that she'd be judged harshly for their mostly lackluster performances. I suppose that is unrealistic, though.
 

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I guess the only legitimate hope for her to get canned was for her to punch a reporter.
 

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The team is clearly going through some transition as the Rampone/Wambach/Boxx generation gets ready to walk away. It's not easy to get players who have carried the team for over a decade to buy into reduced roles. She did a good job with that and made the call to play a relatively inexperienced player like Johnston over Rampone.
 
Going in to the tournament it's clear that they were still trying to figure out their playing style, especially the attack when Wambach was playing vs. when she wasn't. On the other hand, the defense was clearly better than in 2011 and gave them that time to figure things out, as well as use the whole squad in the group stage so they would be fresh for the later games. There is also no doubt that they played their 2 best games in the semis and the final, so the adjustments she made as they went along worked. Yeah, we can debate whether Brian would have had as big of a role if Rapinoe and Holiday hadn't been suspended, but ultimately she figured out her best side, went with it through the knockout rounds, and won the Cup.
 
The interesting thing now will be how the squad changed between now and the Olympics next year.  Boxx and Holiday have retired, Wambach may or may not play, and the squad size is only 18 rather than the 23 for the World Cup. Could be some tough choices to make.