2016-17 Bundesliga Thread

Titans Bastard

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We don't seem to have one yet.

I thought I'd kick it off with a fun article about Dortmund's lack of interest in bringing Mkhitaryan back at some point. Dortmund's CEO is on fire throughout:

He added: "Any intelligent player should consider in advance what kind of environment they are moving to. When you are playing in surroundings where things are working for you, like in Dortmund, then it is quite strange to give that away again once things have finally started to work out for you after a long time settling in."
"We need to cope with losing two world class players in Hummels and Gundogan and also Mkhitaryan," Watzke said.
 

InstaFace

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Pulisic with 2 of the best 3 chances for BVB today, one a flick-on that Dembele hit the crossbar with, and the other a nice close-quarters cross through the keeper where Pulisic crashed to the line and ended up knocking his head on the post and couldn't quite slot it home. There was also a Schalke breakaway earlier in the game where it was 2v2 - and the defender who managed to force the shot from a bad angle was... Pulisic, tracking back well ahead of his CB. Very close to highlight-reel stuff.
 

Titans Bastard

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The dreaded RB Leipzig are unbeaten through 12 games and have opened up a six point lead for now. Bayern have a game in hand, but still - impressive so far.
 

InstaFace

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Last year, Wolfsburg made the Quarterfinals of the UCL and were up 2-0 on the eventual champions after their home leg. This year, they're 14th, 2 points out of the relegation zone.

Last year, Gladbach made the Group stage of the UCL, finished 4th in the Bundesliga and are again doing well in their group this year, with a chance to move on if they win at the Camp Nou against a nothing-to-play-for Barca side. This year, they are in 13th in the Bundesliga.

Leverkusen finished 4th and 3rd the last 2 years; they're now in 10th with a negative GD, more than a third of the way through the season.

You could make an argument that it's a more competitive league than the EPL. Other than Bayern, no team's fanbase can take anything for granted.
 

Titans Bastard

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Last year, Wolfsburg made the Quarterfinals of the UCL and were up 2-0 on the eventual champions after their home leg. This year, they're 14th, 2 points out of the relegation zone.

Last year, Gladbach made the Group stage of the UCL, finished 4th in the Bundesliga and are again doing well in their group this year, with a chance to move on if they win at the Camp Nou against a nothing-to-play-for Barca side. This year, they are in 13th in the Bundesliga.

Leverkusen finished 4th and 3rd the last 2 years; they're now in 10th with a negative GD, more than a third of the way through the season.

You could make an argument that it's a more competitive league than the EPL. Other than Bayern, no team's fanbase can take anything for granted.
It's definitely not shaping up to be a great year for the traditionally strong clubs in Germany. Dortmund, Schalke, and Leverkusen are out of the European places. Gladbach shook off its creeping yo-yo status of the 90s and 00s for the last five years, but have regressed this year. <this is where a rambling @ossie schreckengost lament would go>

Stuttgart were relegated last year and Hamburg and possibly Werder Bremen could follow them this season. Having only 18 clubs instead of 20 makes it a little more cut-throat in relative terms. In the EPL or La Liga, finishing 17th, as Stuttgart did last year, means safety. There just aren't quite as many Hull City, QPR types to insulate you in a down year.
 

bosox4283

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It's definitely not shaping up to be a great year for the traditionally strong clubs in Germany. Dortmund, Schalke, and Leverkusen are out of the European places. Gladbach shook off its creeping yo-yo status of the 90s and 00s for the last five years, but have regressed this year. <this is where a rambling @ossie schreckengost lament would go>

Stuttgart were relegated last year and Hamburg and possibly Werder Bremen could follow them this season. Having only 18 clubs instead of 20 makes it a little more cut-throat in relative terms. In the EPL or La Liga, finishing 17th, as Stuttgart did last year, means safety. There just aren't quite as many Hull City, QPR types to insulate you in a down year.
1. Is it OK to miss ossie? I like his rants.

2. I know it's all about money, but does an 18-team league ensure better competition?
 

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Watching Leipzig-Berlin on FS1, they're saying that pretty much everyone hates Leipzig, especially nowso that they're at the top of the table. Can anyone explain that to me? Something about how they're spending a lot of money? I kinda thought that was the point, the competitive ethos of club football, hence City and Bayern and such.
 

Schnerres

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Imagine there´s a team (like say Newcastle United), which played in 1st to 3rd league for a long time and has a long tradition. It´s located in a town with 500.000+ people, which is the fastest growing town in a country which is known for regressing inhabitants.
That team got relegated a few times, until they had to file for bankrupcy. A few years later a huge international enterprise (Red Bull) arrives on the scene and says "We wanna start another football team in your country. We wanna buy your club (I think it was St.Pauli in Hamburg) and pump it full with money to promote our brand. You gotta change your club´s colors and ....." They refused. They went looking out for another area and went outside the doors of Leipzig - bought the license of a 5th league team close to Leipzig, named it to RB Leipzig (RB for RasenBallsport=LawnSports, because company names are forbidden in Germany´s Bundesliga, but they wanted to have the impression of the brand, ofc). So they got promoted a few times and now after less than 10 years are up to the Bundesliga. They are just buying young (mostly german) players aged less than 25years old. They are ready to pay 10mil. or more, which they already did in the 2nd Bundesliga for single players. You have to say that their concept is good, as they spend the money on young, developping and talented players. And they have experienced guys. Coach Ralph Hasenhüttl led last years promoted team Ingolstadt to a surprising first season (I think they finished 9th or 10th, when everybody expected them to get relegated), now he went to Leipzig for the big money and Ingolstadt (another company/Audi-sponsored team) is fighting for relegation. And they have the mastermind behind their rise, Ralf Rangnick. Why the mastermind? He was already leading the former hated-No.1, Hoffenheim to league-leading status a few years ago with guys like Luiz Gustavo, Vedad Ibisevic, Demba Ba, Sejad Salihovic, etc., when he took SAP´s money and bought those guys as youngsters and formed them into an advanced group after promotion after promotion after promotion. Only this time, he isn´t the coach (where he broke down in a personal crisis a few years back in the spotlight), but the guy behind the scenes who´s responsible for the roster moves.

They are really hated everywhere, because they created their team out-of-nowhere and got the huge money from that company. Every other team in Germany hates them, because every other team thinks, they (Leipzig) don´t deserve this, as they don´t have any tradition. That´s the big word. Each club thinks they have more tradition and deserve more. They respect (the clubs) what they are doing. The fans really hate them (throw color at their bus like at Dortmund recently). But the teams really just think each other team, who exists longer (and don´t have bandwagon fans like RB), deserve it more to lead the league, to play Bundesliga, everything. Even (funny, I know!) teams like Leverkusen, which was immensely supported by chemystry-company Bayer 30 years ago and was always (still is) by german fans around the country, and VW-sponsored Wolfsburg, who get huge money by Volkswagen and were also smiled at by each fan through the country, they both think, they are a different brand than RB Leipzig and make negative comments about RB. Their fans also hate them. Nobody can´t stand them. Usually each team has some team they can relate to or they have a fan-relationship with (say FC Kaiserslautern and 1860 Munich, which started because they both hated Bayern) and you see those regularly featured on partner-scarfs, which are sold with both teams on the scarf. You will never find another team partnered with RB Leipzig. Every team hates them. Every fan hates them. Their work is respected, absolutely.
 

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What I take from that is, they are better-managed (and somewhat, but not ridiculously better-funded), and as a result have built an empire out of nothing, like say the Florida Marlins, and other fans say they respect them but are really resentful that they don't have similar foresight/judgment/budget from their front offices and are kinda jealous. "Tradition" is a cover for that, just like trumped-up accusations of cheating are for NFL fans re: the Patriots. But Leipzig has built a team where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, they have a ton of confidence and team chemistry, and it's embarrassing the established order in Germany. I guess the "Established order" is a big deal there culturally, so that much makes sense to me, even if it's irrational. But I'm not really hearing any legitimate reason for everyone to hate them. Great, they're sponsored by a drink company rather than a manufacturer, big deal.
 

Schnerres

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The fans aren´t respecting them. Maybe guys who are watching games to enjoy the game or prefer two good passes to one good tackle. But the Ultras, the Hardcorefans, the fans in fanclubs, guys who go to the stadium with their buddies to drink/scream/annoy other people, those people will just hate them without showing the slightest respect. They will say that "My Team could do what they did if they had the money.." and so on, although it´s not that simple, as you said.

What helps them obviously is that they have many pieces in place since multiple seasons, played together for a longer time. And they dominated in lower leagues, so when they were in the 2nd league, they were already the "hated Bayern of 2nd Bundesliga", so it´s not as if they are facing new ground now, they are playing a good game, are a little lucky, but they have their chemistry (us vs. them all). Additionally, they don´t play international football, yet and are out of the cup, after losing to hated local rival (another former Eastern German team) Dynamo Dresden in the 1st round. They have traditional fans ;-)

I agree, every other smart fan should just say f...that, we´ll take the money. But there are so many dumb guys who say "we don´t want to sell our stadium, we don´t want a sponsor logo on our chest, we don´t want an international owner", even if that would garantee 500mil.€ instantly and international football. That´s the nature in German football. And that thinking is also heavily influenced by the 50+1rule, which means that clubs have to own the biggest part of themselves and it is forbidden to be owned by an owner or a company (although there´s obviously exceptions to the rule). Those traditionalists just mean they (their club) deserve something by being existent for longer times. It´s ridiculous. But it´s just the fans who talk that way, the club guys are mostly saying it´s refreshing to have new teams advancing to the top.
 

Senator Donut

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Bayern Munich hosts RB Leipzig today at 2:00 EST in the matchup of the year thus far. Also Pulisic is expected to play for Dortmund at noon today, so it should be a fun doubleheader.
 

allstonite

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Bayern Munich hosts RB Leipzig today at 2:00 EST in the matchup of the year thus far. Also Pulisic is expected to play for Dortmund at noon today, so it should be a fun doubleheader.
Dortmund played yesterday and Pulisic did start.
 

InstaFace

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Dortmund played yesterday and Pulisic did start.
And looked good out there, definitely one of the impact players on the field, played all 90 too. Had a nice cross that Aubameyang almost finished with a jumping roundhouse kick (...right at the goalie), had a nice run at 86' that saw him take a shot from close range (...right at the goalie), and had a lot of good link-up play in the midfield.

@Benfica on Feb 14th must be circled on his calendar. Well, that and Leipzig on Feb 4th. If he plays the UCL he probably won't play the DFB-Pokal R16 match on Feb 8th, and vice-versa.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Well this went to shit for RB Leipzig pretty quickly. 2-0 within 30 minutes, and a brutal challenge by Emil Forsberg gets him rightly sent off.
 

twoBshorty

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Forsberg banned for the first 3 matches after the break. What a stupid tackle that was. Should have just grabbed Lahm's shirt.
 

Schnerres

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Philipp Lahm(33) will end his professional career at the end of the season. He won´t take the role behind the curtain @Bayern, which he´s been offered.

He basically said (in many interviews in the last 24hours) that he will keep playing this season, but won´t be able to keep doing the daily, weekly, monthly routine which he has been doing for so long on the top level.
And you can see it a little, this season. Maybe it was already happening before, but in Pep´s superpossession-system, there weren´t as many defensive duels for him as a RB and he was also often played in DM. With Ancelotti he has to play mostly as a RB and in more cases than before has to face young, speedy wingers in sprints. With the mileage he has, you can see he isn´t (wasn´t) the fastest. So probably a good decision to go away for some time now. But he and Bayern said, they want to have a relationship in the future, so maybe when Rummenigge ends his turn (2019) or later, there will be some positions.
 

InstaFace

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Schnerres's article says central midfielder Mohamed Dahoud has been bought by BVB from Gladbach for EUR 12M.

Probably doesn't threaten Pulisic's role as a winger, but makes it harder for him to find playing time centrally.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Ha! We didn't need him anyway!


/glances at team sheet with Kevin Stewart or Lucas sure to start in the Derby


:(
 

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Bobby Wood's Hamburger SV is playing at Dortmund. Wood just had a 10m headstart on the defense for a 1:1 breakaway vs Burki, and got stuffed on a kick save. Just an absolute facepalm inducer; he had time to slow down and take a sideways touch. 3 mins later, a (cynical) foul on the edge of the box gives a free kick to Dortmund and Castro buries it after the keeper gets wrongfooted.

Pulisic isn't starting for BVB. With luck, that's because Tuchel is keeping him fresh for the big trip to Bayern this Saturday.
 

cromulence

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I hope Emre fuckin Mor hasn't passed Pulisic, but he was subbed in before Pulisic on Saturday and now is starting over him today. Not ideal.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I hope Emre fuckin Mor hasn't passed Pulisic, but he was subbed in before Pulisic on Saturday and now is starting over him today. Not ideal.
Pulisic played a full 180 minutes of rough (particularly the 2nd 90) CONCACAF play. I'd guess that's probably as much as you'd need to read into it. Mor came on as a late sub in Turkey's lone qualifier, then played 80 in a friendly.
 

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to be fair, Mor was sitting on his couch (we may assume :) ) the last 2 weeks while Pulisic played 180 intense, foul-laden minutes for his international team.

Dortmund had a beautiful through ball to put Aubameyang 1:1 and the Hamburger goalie made a kick save. So the teams are even on "over-50%-expected scoring chances failed on".
 
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Schnerres

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Mor is also just 19 years old and hasn´t played a full 90 minutes for Dortmund other than a 2nd round cup match. Tuchel wants to give him some playing time and development, that´s it.
 

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Sokratis is the only member of that defense who looks like he belongs on the field. I normally think highly of Bartra but he's done little other than foul Lewandowski today.

The british announcers are giving Pulisic quite the verbal slurping.
 

speedracer

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Jeez, what a bloodletting. Alaba + Ribery killing Dortmund 2v2 or 2v1 on the left and Robben 1veverybody on the right.
 

Schnerres

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Did you guys know that Robben is lefty? Because BVB's entire defense doesn't.
The problem with Robben was always him being injured quite often. If he goes into a 1vs1, he is just too fast for mostly everybody out there. Players have to guess to have a chance, some guess right and come away with the ball, others don´t (or he anticipates their move).
He perfected his moves, he either goes down the line to bring in a decent cross (with his bad right foot) or he moves into the center and smashes the shot, like seen 100x times. Schmelzer is a bad defender on the wing (that´s part why he was never really liked by Löw) and Dortmund didn´t really double down often enough to help him cover.
 

Schnerres

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It´ll be interesting to see what happens this summer @Bayern. They said often that there won´t be much activity. They already announced the transfers for Niklas Süle(CB, 21) and Sebastian Rudy (DM/RB depth, 27) from Hoffenheim.
Rudy will be some kind of a Philipp Lahm. Versatile, smart, technically skilled, small and skinny. Süle will be the 3rd CB option behind Hummels and Boateng. The guy is a huge bull and can score on set pieces. If he improves his passing, he will can overtake both of them in the next two years.

Look at the lineup in the 2nd leg vs. Real:
Neuer (31) - Lahm (33), Boateng (28), Hummels (28), Alaba (24) - Vidal (29), Alonso (35) - Robben (33), Thiago (26), Ribery (34) - Lewandowski (28) // Subs: Douglas Costa (26), Müller (27), Kimmich (22); Bench: Ulreich (28), Bernat (24), Rafinha (31), Coman (20).

Look at the younger guys, 25 or younger (which isn´t even young) and I include Renato Sanches here, the only other guy 25 or younger with regular match time:
(BL matches / BL starts / CL matches / CL starts / DFB CUP matches / DFB cup starts)

Total: 29 BL matches - 10 CL matches - 4 DFB cup matches --> 43 matches

Alaba: 27 BL / 24 BLS /// 9 CL / 9 CLS /// 4 Cup / 3 Cup S --> 40 matches, 36 starts
Kimmich: 22 BL / 12 BLS /// 8 CL / 3 CLS /// 4 Cup / 2 Cup S --> 34 matches, 17 starts
Bernat: 13 BL / 9 BLS /// 4 CL / 2 CLS /// 3 Cup / 2 Cup S --> 20 matches, 13 starts
Coman: 16 BL / 8 BLS /// 2 CL / 0 CLS /// 3 Cup / 1 Cup S --> 21 matches, 9 starts
Sanches: 15 BL / 5 BLS /// 6 CL / 2 CLS /// 2 Cup / 1 Cup S ---> 23 matches, 8 starts

I don´t know if Bayern has to buy some new players besides Süle and Rudy (both german national team players). Ancelotti doesn´t play the youngsters. Alaba is still young, it´s insane that he´s 24, but has already seen it all with Bayern and you can´t count him as a youngster.
Kimmich also played in Germany´s Euro 16, which was a great experience, but maybe caused some physical problems for him this season. Same goes for the other young guys Coman and Sanches, who both played in the Euro final and can´t get regular starts for Bayern (because of Ribery and Robben having their 11th spring). I could also include Douglas Costa, who may not be loved at Bayern and often is quoted in the media while talking about leaving Bayern. I mean someone has to play on the wings and Ribery and Robben will be gone in 1-2 seasons.
Alonso will be gone in DM, so maybe Sanches gets it together. One of Kimmich or Rudy could play as a RB or in DM.

Just to add, look at what Pep did with some of those:
Coman played in 23 BL matches and started 20 a year earlier (although both Ribery and Robben were injured quite often). Kimmich played in 23 and started 15 (about the same). Bernat played in 16 and started 13, while he was out with an injury for a long time in between the season.

Pep just played them, trusted and developped them. Ancelotti is doing his thing with his oldies and I think it showed vs. Real, where he had to play some unfit players or guys who just came back from injuries.

I´m curious what will happen, as "The Brow" likely won´t be happy with Lahm and Xabi going out and two young guys stepping in. If they get this done, they will be okay probably. The next construction site will be the winger position (esp. if Douglas Costa won´t stay) and DM doesn´t look like a strength if Thiago moves to the No.10 position and there´s only Vidal and Rudy, with Kimmich and Sanches, who don´t offer much experience.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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BVB concede an astonishing number of goals directly off unforced defensive turnovers.

Pulisic has been good. Drew the penalty (bad call outside the box but it was a nice hustle play and legit foul), and would have two assists if not for poor finishing.
 

wonderland

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Agreed they were poor passing in the back. It looked like to me they had no center midfield presence. Everybody was crammed in the back or up top. Just no easy link up play.
 

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Dortmund too sloppy in the defensive third most of the game. Thought they like looked much more in sync offensively once Auba subbed in for Reus. Pulisic was dangerous all game, though he needs to stop whining when the play doesn't go his way.
 

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Aubameyang is just so fucking good. His goal today is probably somehow fucked up by other strikers 60-70% of the time; they either go first-time to the right (Sommer was leaning that way), or they take the touch around the goalie but either put it too far or too close, or they can't make the tight-angle shot and hit the side netting or wide of the far post, or they put it ground level right into (Stindl?) the defender who was crashing the net rather than chipping it at shoulder height as Aubameyang did. It happened in a flash and he made it look easy, but it was a thing of beauty.

 

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As bad as BVB's defensive line looked in Der Klassiker, and as good as Robben looked, flip both those statements around for today's DFB-Pokal match. The highlights are worth a few minutes of your time, just fantastic razor-thin-margins defensive work.

Bayern deserved a penalty for Dembele's late tackle; the ref gave Thiago a yellow for simulation... when it wasn't.
 

Schnerres

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There are now a lot of reports in german media that Tuchel will be gone after this season.
They would probably be under the carpet if Dortmund would not been under a bomb attack and Tuchel had been outspoken after:
1) He said that he was not asked about the decision to play a day after the attack and he did not like it, as the focus of the team wasn´t on football.
Club boss Watzke was seen as the cool decider and Tuchel as the human with feelings. So Watzke came out after this and said that this wasn´t true and he asked the team+coach and nothing of this (above) was said to him. So the match was played the day after.
2) Watzke said also that the team has goals. They want to reach 2nd place in the Bundesliga to reach the CL without qualification. Making it through 3rd place would also be alright. But making it through 4th and qualification would not meet the goal they have (clearly to avoid an earlier qualification). The talk about the season will be after the DFB cup final, when all the matches will be played.
3) Tuchel just isn´t a very likeable person. He´s also some kind of smartass like Klopp is at times, but Klopp is outgoing and funny in many moments. Tuchel seems to be a person who´s thinking a lot about each detail, thin-skinned (not open to criticism) and isn´t much liked by Dortmund´s huge fanside, too (at least compared to Klopp, which is hard to achieve, I admit).

So he has another year of contract time, but there´s more and more talk that he could be gone this summer. Let´s see how this plays out.

German reports from kicker:
Tuchels manager says that the goal is that Tuchel stays (although they are having troubles at Dortmund ATM).
Tuchel says he doesn´t want to think about Watzke´s interview for a minute (not thinking about the criticism, as he has more important things to do).
 

Schnerres

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Bundesliga is winding down with todays 33rd and next to last matchday.
About 50 minutes are played (every of the 9 matches are played at the same time) and it seems like:
-Bayern will lose @Leipzig (1-3 so far)
-some really bad team will save Leverkusen (Bayer is losing @home 0-2 vs. Cologne and will play @Hertha with a strong home record next week); unfortunately so far Wolfsburg and Hamburg are both losing and will both stay behind LEverkusen (as well as Mainz) and play against each other next week.
-Mainz 05 plays a strong 1st half vs. Frankfurt and now trails 0-2 (next week: @Cologne)

So far everything points to Darmstadt (already done) and Ingolstadt (would have a chance for relegation spot with current results) to go down today and someone between Wolfsburg, Hamburg and Mainz being in the relegation spot (facing either Hannover or Braunschweig in the relegation matches).
This could end wild next week, if today´s results end favorable.

--> Now it´s Mainz - Frankfurt 2-2 with two goals within two minutes (and 4-2 Leipzig!)
 

InstaFace

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Hamburg-Wolfsburg on FS1. 1-1 towards the end of the 1st half, Bobby Wood making some trouble. Hamburg needs to win to avoid a relegation playoff and send Wolfsburg to it instead. There's been some really exciting attacking sequences, for a game between two lousy teams, they are hauling some ass out there.

More exciting than Bayern-Freiburg, I'll tell you that.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Dortmund choking away the 3rd spot at home.

Penalty draws them even.

And Pulisic draws another penalty, Aubameyang buries it to seal the deal.

In other news, Bobby Wood's Hamburg are saved by a late goal to leapfrog Wolfsburg.
 
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PedroSpecialK

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Wolfsburg takes leg 1 1-0, on a Mario Gomez penalty.

90 more minutes to avoid a pretty substantial embarrassment...
 

Schnerres

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So Dortmund won the DFB Cup. Tuchel seems to (probably) still leave, as he is not liked at the club. Watzke hates him and yesterday in an interview, captain Schmelzer dissed him after the game, as Tuchel left out DM Nuri Sahin of the 18man squad. He was the "logical" replacement for Julian Weigl (who is out with an injured ankle) and the entire squad was shocked to not have him in the Cup final roster. And he said it in the interview that the coach has to answer questions about that. That´s backstabbing, especially after a win.

Additionally, Marco Reus has an injured (partly torn) ACL. Everyone in Dortmund is happy they won the cup and Reus won his first trophy. And everyone is happy that he didn´t completely tore his ACL (6months out), instead having just a break of 6 to 8 weeks. He will probably miss some time of the seasons training camp. The guy is a walking injury. OTOH, that makes you US guys happy, as that probably means more playing time to start the season for Pulisic. Let´s look out who will be his coach (favourite is Lucien Favre).