This tie is a good example of what happens when you make mistakes against really good teams.
Oh well. Win or lose, up the Blues.
Oh well. Win or lose, up the Blues.
2017-18 Champions League
- Thread starter Titans Bastard
- Start date
On an off-day, he's the third best player in the world. On a so-so day he's the second, on a good day, he's the best of all time.
I fall in the hate em and not enjoyable camp but it's bewildering to watch what they're doing and how effective they've been at wasting away the advantage they had built up. If they hadn't gotten incredibly lucky with the Madrid transfer ban I think they'd be in an even more dire situation than they are right now as De Gea has been a match winner for them securing all kinds of monetary infusions to keep them afloat. They could have gotten strangled by the FFP monster they helped to create.
The strange part to me is that they have many of the pieces necessary to be a more competitive side. With so many teams moving to 4-3-3 and it being the best formation for their most expensive instagram model it seems a no brainer for them to be playing that formation. Signing Sanchez never made any sense but a front 3 of Martial - Lukaku - Lingard/Rashford would have ample pace and craft. Since they bought Sanchez they could shoe horn him in there instead of the latest highly overrated United youths if they'd like. Although none of their CDMs are particularly fleet of foot I think they could mostly patch it together with what they have in the remainder of a 4-3-3 midfield. They'd concede more than they do because the CMs, defenders ,and full backs aren't all that good but they'd at least be playing real football and probably about the same place in the league and other competitions but without all the shit negative play. And they'd at least be developing the young attackers they have purchased instead of stifling them and waiting for them to move. Martial was as big a talent in world football as you'll see a few years ago and absolutely flying with confidence taking on defenders. It's hard to watch him now, he looks so adrift of his class and talent.
I think Mourinho's problem is that he has never fully adapted tactically to the pressing revolution wrought by Pep, Klopp, Pochetino, etc. It's not surprising that the league's three best teams are also probably the three best pressing teams. Everyone except Mourinho sees the future as playing with highly mobile, technically adept centerbacks who are good enough on the ball to make the first pass against an intensive counterpress. Everyone except Mourinho recognizes the need to play with pacey fullbacks who can cover lots of ground, so that you can play inverted attackers who can overload the midfield while still maintaining width. Meanwhile Mourinho is still rolling out a back four of Young, Jones, Smalling, Valencia that is neither particularly mobile nor technically adept. That kind of thing worked in 2007 but teams are too good at counterpressing now. Your big lumbering centerbacks can make all the penalty box tackles and headers they want, but the counterpressing teams will just win the second ball when your technically weak back 6 can't pass around them and come right back at you.
How many United games have you watched this season? They have played a 4-3-3 in many games and have had the same amount of success as with 2 holding midfielders. They've also played 4-4-2 and a diamond in midfield at various times of the year.
Martial and our instagram model started out great this season. Pogba has really only been poor for the past month or so (maybe six weeks) and while you can say a player of his caliber shouldn't have poor spells that last that long, for some reason he has. Martial was playing great before his injury. If its down to Mourinho then does he get the credit for the first few months of the season? Of course he deserves some of the blame, but so do the players.
As for the bolded, you've done this before. When City won the league a few years back you predicted the club's downfall. It didn't happen then and its not going to happen now. They are the most lucrative club in England, and thats including in the down years that they've had.
The only thing I agree with you on is Sanchez. He's a square peg trying to fit in a round hole.
I'm fine with Valencia out there. Jones as well, but he's been hurt for a while now. With Bailly back and healthy I'm hoping Lindelof or Jones can partner him as he's our best centerback.
When Jose plays a pressing team, he lumps it over the line trying to avoid the press by keeping the ball in the opponents half (whether United have it or they do). In the Europa final it worked. Against Liverpool and Chelsea, it worked. It didn't work against Sevilla because a) Fellaini was awful and b) Sanchez isn't on the same wavelength as his teammates. The frustrating part though is that we should be playing Sevilla off the pitch.
I'm fine playing defensively against the City's, Chelsea's of the world etc...But what is strange about Jose sometimes is he does it against teams where we should be bossing possession. Particularly when your best player's biggest strength is his versatility. If I'm Mourinho I simply play Pogba alongside Matic against teams where we'll have the ball, and push Pogba forward behind Lukaku while bringing in someone alongside Matic in bigger games.
But believe me, as a fan, LVG was a better period than Moyes, and Jose is a better period than LVG.
I've watched a fair amount of United and of course I've seen them play 4-3-3 but it feels like the formation is used reluctantly and without full commitment. What I've seen of the 4-3-3 from United is that it's been still far too deep, too conservative, almost like a meld of Mourinho's insatiable desire to soak up pressure and release his free attackers into acres of space and the more theoretical benefits a 4-3-3 would provide which is to match the other team all over the pitch while maintaining width and numerical capability to press and win the ball back. Even when playing 4-3-3 United concede so much territory and end up in a very flat shape compared to other teams who employ this type of system. In the end, I suppose I'm doing the conversation a disservice by focusing on the formation. I only introduced it because it seems like Mourinho can't decide on his attack force and I think that choice is relatively obvious. In reality my point is more in where United chooses to contest team on the pitch and regardless of formation it is often very deep, even in a 4-3-3.
I think we're in agreement as to how Jose attempts to deal with the press but I think the margins for making that pass out are getting tighter and tighter and harder to execute. Teams who are trying to defend from the front are getting better at cutting those passes out and employing faster and more capable CBs who can deal with the danger that the out ball creates. This is why positional play is so important to the Guardiolas/Sarris etc of the world because they try to immediately get their players into positions where there almost can't help but be an available pass to nullify the effects of a press while employing a back line who can consistently make those passes under pressure. Jose seems to take it as a given that the way out will be there and I think it's getting harder and harder to execute. Fundamentally, i don't think it's impossible to succeed the way he's trying to and to some extent the league results bear that out. But I think it requires an extremely high level of quality in the few players Jose leaves free and to this point the United attackers haven't consistently delivered the type of quality a player like Hazard did for him at Chelsea. In my opinion, from the outside, too many United attackers blow hot and cold. They all have their days but they aren't at a level of relentless quality necessary to consistently play that way and assume you'll find the goal through the quality of those players. This is the only sense whereby Alexis made sense to me, at his best I think he's more capable than the rest of your front line at constantly getting on the ball and pushing and probing a back line looking to create chances and force errors. I don't expect we'll agree on the relative talent levels of your other attackers but I don't think Jose's system will really work without truly exceptional talent at those positions and while a lot of money has been spent trying they haven't quite found the players who can thrive on that type of service.
@Zomp Do you not think Pogba has been poor because of his and Mou’s clashing visions of footy? I mean, he’s not been close to what was expected, and I think there’s two main factors: Mou’s desire for tactical obedience, and Pogba’s seeming tactical inflexibility. I think this constant simmering conflict has been at the heart of United’s “issues” this season.
I’m a longtime fan of Mourinho’s, and I think getting him in at United was huge to stabilize things after the LVG and Moyes missteps; I think to take the next step forward (challenging City, CL advancement), you’re going to need to move on from Mou...or your biggest marketing piece and potential on field engine (in which order should his value be ranked?)
Edit: and I’m with you on Pogba’s play this season- it’s better than people give him credit for. But from an expectation perspective, he’s been relatively poor.
I’m a longtime fan of Mourinho’s, and I think getting him in at United was huge to stabilize things after the LVG and Moyes missteps; I think to take the next step forward (challenging City, CL advancement), you’re going to need to move on from Mou...or your biggest marketing piece and potential on field engine (in which order should his value be ranked?)
Edit: and I’m with you on Pogba’s play this season- it’s better than people give him credit for. But from an expectation perspective, he’s been relatively poor.
I never claimed Liverpool didn't get a fortunate draw...this time.
United have seemed to pull the lowest ranked team in the draw for years, both domestically and in Europe.
Of course, that’s United’s bag. I just like pulling the collective Liverpool tail, especially when their domestic cup draw consisted of West Brom at home.
I dont know. Pogba wasn't poor until a month or so ago. Now, if you're asking me whats changed, I don't know. In a press conference when Pogba came back from injury, Jose said the reason he was out for so long was because they made a choice to avoid surgery and rehab instead. He's come back from that and hasn't looked the same. Now whether he lacks that 5th gear that he was showing is because of Jose locking him into a role that doesn't allow it, or whether he is hurt is anyone's guess. The difference in quality is striking though. Personally, I don't think he's 100 percent because even in his games when playing alongside Matic, beating players and creating was still there.
We may have to move on from Mourinho, I'm not sure. If United finish in the top 4 though and make a run in the FA Cup I think the board will be happy with the result. Besides, who would be available? Would Poch move from Spurs? Would Sarri be a good choice? His Napoli team are flying but I don't know.
Liverpool vs City should be incredible. In recent memory, all England Champions League ties have been very entertaining. Possibly the draw that both teams wanted to avoid the most?
Over the past 2 season, they have played 3 fantastic, very entertaining matches. And the 4th got submarined early by Mane’s red card. No matter what, it should be fun. ‘Pool’s press really brings out the best and worst in City.
I think everyone wants to avoid Bayern & Barca right now. Juve-Madrid should be a a real brawl. Not sure it’ll be great football, but very intense.
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I'm always disappointed when clubs from the same country get drawn together in the CL. We don't need the CL to see English sides play each other. Pool-City will be fun but I would have rather seen them play teams they haven't played before. Liverpool-Real Madrid and City-Juventus would have been much more interesting to me.
The risk, though, is that you then end up with two clubs from the same country making it through to the final...which nobody wants. (Remember Real Madrid-Valencia?)
Sure, but I'm ok with that risk, since it happens after those teams have already beaten all comers. And not all intra-country finals are bad matches -- the two Real-Atletico finals and the 2008 Chelsea-United final were fairly good games.
FWIW, the worst intra-country final was the 2003 Juve-Milan snoozefest at Old Trafford. 120 minutes of my life I'll never get back.
Totally agree with this sentiment. Both Liverpool and Citeh refuse to allow a dull match of football. Considering that most teams sit back against Barca and Bayern, any combination thereof would've been preferable to this. I'm not upset that Barca got the best outcome in terms of advancing, but the same nerves and interest in the match won't be there unless there is a funny scoreline in the first leg. The one thing you can say for this draw though, is it sets up potentially ridiculous semifinal matchups. But, that should be the case no matter what.
From this Liverpool fan's point of view I'm not so sure. As has been mentioned their recent matches have all been competitive and very, very entertaining. I think Liverpool can beat City. I don't view it as the worst possible matchup - near the top yes. But it would have been more fun to play the likes of Barcelona or Real Madrid or Bayern.
But , it should be a great matchup.
Quick question - what determines the home/road match order. Is the seeding or just luck?
Didn't they use to draw the rest of the tournament out at this stage? So you knew who the winners would play? Is that not done anymore?
So - 'Pool drew and highest rated team and the unfavourable match order in the draw? Geez.
It will just make it all the sweeter when they prevail.
(And then lose to Seville in the semis )
You think City is higher rated than Barca or Bayern right now? On what basis?
Yeah, you used to know what the semi matches would be at this point, but they scrapped that. There will be a semifinal draw after this round.
The team drawn first gets home leg first. That's Liverpool, Barca, Sevilla, & Juve this round.
Most of the world rankings I have seen have Citeh at the top of their lists .. FWIW ..
Personally I would rank them second - behind Barca.
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Totally in favor of Real getting a legit threat in the QF draw. Anything to prevent a three-peat. If they can beat Juve and then two of (likely) Barca, Bayern and City, then hats off to Zizou, but at least there'll be no more of this Wolfsburg-in-the-QFs nonsense.
My disgust for them knows no rationality.
Except Marcelo. He's the man. But the rest of them can shit in their respective hats.
Except Marcelo. He's the man. But the rest of them can shit in their respective hats.
Rule changes next year will allow players to play for two teams in the Champions League in the same season.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43555381
If this had been in place this year, Coutinho could have, in theory, won both a winner's and runner-up medal if Barca and Liverpool met in the final.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43555381
If this had been in place this year, Coutinho could have, in theory, won both a winner's and runner-up medal if Barca and Liverpool met in the final.
Even as a Barca fan I'm totally against this. Definitely get a 'Sword of Damocles' vibe from the Superclubs vis-a-vis UEFA. But, the Superclubs at some point need to realize that they may kill the golden goose this way.
Yup; seems like it only benefits the top clubs that can afford to import big transfer players mid-season like Coutinho that are playing for clubs that made the champions league. This really just hurts the second-tier clubs (Liverpool, Sevilla, Spurs, Arsenal, Dortmund, etc.) that sell their best players to the biggest clubs.
At first I thought "well, sometimes big clubs offload players to second-tier clubs" but usually it's third-tier clubs or China. The only saving grace is if a player is loaned out.
Just a reminder, UCL quarterfinals first legs are this week.
Tuesday: Juventus vs Real Madrid, and Sevilla vs Bayern Munich.
Wednesday: Barcelona vs Roma, and Liverpool vs Manchester City.
Other than rooting against Real, I really have no strong rooting interests here, so it will be some great low-stress viewing for me.
Tuesday: Juventus vs Real Madrid, and Sevilla vs Bayern Munich.
Wednesday: Barcelona vs Roma, and Liverpool vs Manchester City.
Other than rooting against Real, I really have no strong rooting interests here, so it will be some great low-stress viewing for me.
Juventus have given up 5 goals total in the last 25 matches they've played.
Credit to Spurs, they got 3 of them.
Credit to Spurs, they got 3 of them.
So, let´s go:
25 matches from kicker.de:
Juve: Serie A: 15-2-0 (33:2, +31), CL: 2-2-0 (6:3, +3), Coppa Italia: 4-0-0 (6:0, +6), all: 21-4-0 (45:5, +40)
Draws: Barca (h, 0-0), Inter (h, 0-0), Tottenham (h, 2-2), SPAL Ferrara (a, 0-0)
Real: LaLiga: 11-3-3 (51:22, +29), CL: 3-0-0 (8:4, +4), Copa: 2-2-1 (9:7, +2), all: 16-5-4 (68:33, +35)
Sevilla: LaLiga: 5-3-8 (20:31, -11), CL: 1-2-0 (2:1, +1), Copa 5-1-0 (12:4, +8), all: 11-6-8 (34:36, -2)
Bayern: Bundesliga: 15-1-2 (48:13, +35), CL: 5-0-0 (15:4, +11), DFB Cup: 2-0-0 (8:1, +7), all 22-1-2 (71:18, +53)
Drew Hertha (0-0, h), lost to Gladbach (1-2, a, November) and Leipzig (1-2, a, mid-march).
Liverpool: PL: 13-5-2 (51:18, +33), CL: 2-1-0 (12:0, +12), FA Cup: 1-0-1 (4:4, +/-0), all: 16-6-3 (67: 22, +45)
Man City: PL: 13-2-1 (42:11, +31), CL: 1-0-1 (5:2, +3), League Cup: 3-1-0* (9:4, +5), FA Cup: 2-0-1 (6:2, +4), all: 19-3-3 (62:19, +43)
Tied Leicester (1-1, a, cup after 120mins*), Crystal Palace (0-0, a), Burnley (1-1, a), lost vs Liverpool (3-4, a), vs Wigan (0-1, a, FA Cup), vs Basel (1-2, h, CL after the 4-0 away leg).
Barca: LaLiga: 12-4-0 (40:8, +32), CL: 2-1-0 (6:1, +5), Copa: 4-1-1 (11:2, +9), all: 18-6-1 (57:11, +46)
Lost to Espanyol (0-1, a, mid-January), but still advanced in Copa, drew Celta(a), Espanyol(a), Getafe(h), Chelsea(a), Las Palmas(a), Sevilla(a).
Roma: Serie A: 10-6-4 (33:19, +14), CL: 2-0-2 (3:4, -1), Coppa Italia: 0-0-1, (1:2, -1), all: 12-6-7 (37:25, +12)
*If a cup match was tied after 120mins, I took the result after 120mins into account.
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Thanks!
Sevilla’s form is shockingly bad for a club at this stage. Bayern has no excuse for not winning going away. They looked awesome vs Dortmund with James looking in form.
Sevilla’s form is shockingly bad for a club at this stage. Bayern has no excuse for not winning going away. They looked awesome vs Dortmund with James looking in form.
How would you rank likely entertainment value of these 4 matchups (let's assume for the sake of argument that MANC-Liverpool i
I'm really curious to see how the Real-Juve tie works out. I think Allegri is very astute and remains calm with his veteran and talented team. Along with Bayern and MANC, Juve is well equipped to stop Real's crosses. Chiellini still covers up so many mistakes, but Barzagli can be beat. Juve have so many good options in the middle and Allegri is excellent at making shrewd tactical substitutions to unbalance matches. Costa and Cuadrado can really punish FBs that get too far forward, so like we say for every Real match, the opponent will look for space behind Marcelo. Dybala is on incredible form and I haven't even touched upon Mandzukic who I think is a terrific player (is he injured or am I imagining things?). All that being said, I expect Juve to soak up pressure and try to draw Kroos and Modric (wither Kovacic?) out of MF and attack Ramos, Varane, Carvajal, and Casemiro with speed. I think Allegri will keep his FBs tucked in helping possess in MF, but otherwise happy to concede possession to RM.
Not that I'm an expert, but I've seen 2 Dortmund matches recently and they were not good. Sevilla showed their ceiling in the first half of the Barca match last week and on their day, they can create a lot of problems for any team. The question for them is consistency and taking their chances. Their ability to beat a press in the midfield and get the ball forward to dangerous attackers make them a threat against big pressing clubs (i.e. Bayern). Their defending was pretty solid too and I think people are beginning to recognize Lenglet as a promising CB, and they have intelligent FBs in Mercado and Escudero (although they are missing a solid partner for Lenglet in the middle). I think Montella is still trying to impose his style at Sevilla after getting rid of Berizzo midseason.
I'm really curious to see how the Real-Juve tie works out. I think Allegri is very astute and remains calm with his veteran and talented team. Along with Bayern and MANC, Juve is well equipped to stop Real's crosses. Chiellini still covers up so many mistakes, but Barzagli can be beat. Juve have so many good options in the middle and Allegri is excellent at making shrewd tactical substitutions to unbalance matches. Costa and Cuadrado can really punish FBs that get too far forward, so like we say for every Real match, the opponent will look for space behind Marcelo. Dybala is on incredible form and I haven't even touched upon Mandzukic who I think is a terrific player (is he injured or am I imagining things?). All that being said, I expect Juve to soak up pressure and try to draw Kroos and Modric (wither Kovacic?) out of MF and attack Ramos, Varane, Carvajal, and Casemiro with speed. I think Allegri will keep his FBs tucked in helping possess in MF, but otherwise happy to concede possession to RM.
Based on entertainment...the british duel is a clear No.1.
Then Juve vs. Real No.2, as this should be the tightest. I think Real´s speed on the counter should create a ton of trouble for Juve, based on common thought, but Juve will not give away a lot of space, so I think this will end up in a very defensive meeting tonight (*reverse jinx*). Then in Madrid, Juve will turn it around and sit back to wait it out and counter. It will be defensive, but definitely not boring.
Sevilla vs Bayern (I) will be interesting, as Sevilla probably offers much more in this week than Roma. But the fear is that Bayern will already win and semi-advance this week, so the 2nd leg at Munich wont´t be that interesting. Since the turn of the calendar year, Bayerns away record is 6-0-1 with the lone loss at Leipzig (2nd) and only one win (2-1 at Wolfsburg) by +1. They dominated and they could easily make this boring today.
OTOH, you expect Barca to win this and Roma to sit back. If Barca wins by +2, it´s normal, by +3, it´s over, by +1 (or a worse result), Roma is happy. Barca´s home record this calendar year: 9-1-0 with 25:2 goals (0:0 vs.Getafe being the outlier). The super-dominant start (3-0, 5-0, 2-0) is behind them and the results have been tighter. So, Roma have scored in every away match this calendar year (4-3-1, 13:7, +6) and played many tight matches. I would guess they hope for a 1-2 or even 1-1. It would be insane if that happened, but we´ve seen stranger things.
I think it would be a nice mixture if there´s a team from every league there in the semis:
Juve vs. Real 1-0, 1-1
Sevilla vs. Bayern 1-2, 1-4
Barca vs. Roma 2-0, 2-1
Liverpool vs. City 1-2, 2-2 (extra time)
(I know I´m making this sound like it´s totally based on former results, which account for nothing what will happen going forward.)
Then Juve vs. Real No.2, as this should be the tightest. I think Real´s speed on the counter should create a ton of trouble for Juve, based on common thought, but Juve will not give away a lot of space, so I think this will end up in a very defensive meeting tonight (*reverse jinx*). Then in Madrid, Juve will turn it around and sit back to wait it out and counter. It will be defensive, but definitely not boring.
Sevilla vs Bayern (I) will be interesting, as Sevilla probably offers much more in this week than Roma. But the fear is that Bayern will already win and semi-advance this week, so the 2nd leg at Munich wont´t be that interesting. Since the turn of the calendar year, Bayerns away record is 6-0-1 with the lone loss at Leipzig (2nd) and only one win (2-1 at Wolfsburg) by +1. They dominated and they could easily make this boring today.
OTOH, you expect Barca to win this and Roma to sit back. If Barca wins by +2, it´s normal, by +3, it´s over, by +1 (or a worse result), Roma is happy. Barca´s home record this calendar year: 9-1-0 with 25:2 goals (0:0 vs.Getafe being the outlier). The super-dominant start (3-0, 5-0, 2-0) is behind them and the results have been tighter. So, Roma have scored in every away match this calendar year (4-3-1, 13:7, +6) and played many tight matches. I would guess they hope for a 1-2 or even 1-1. It would be insane if that happened, but we´ve seen stranger things.
I think it would be a nice mixture if there´s a team from every league there in the semis:
Juve vs. Real 1-0, 1-1
Sevilla vs. Bayern 1-2, 1-4
Barca vs. Roma 2-0, 2-1
Liverpool vs. City 1-2, 2-2 (extra time)
(I know I´m making this sound like it´s totally based on former results, which account for nothing what will happen going forward.)
