2017 Butler Watch: Love Me Tender

[Infield Infidel]

Butler talk has invaded a bunch of other threads so here's a thread for him.

With Gilmore setting the market at $13m/yr, if Butler plays for the $4m+ tender this year (and doesn't get hurt) he should be able to get at least 3/39 next year, which would make about 4/44 over the 4 year span. Would a team offer him that this year as an RFA, with around $28m guaranteed? It would cost a 1st rd pick, but that pick essentially shaves $2m/yr off his contract. That might be worth it if a team values him highly. He probably signs that, but I have no idea what the Pats would match.

If he stays on the one-year deal, I don't think he gets franchised if Jimmy G is still here.

 

[BigJimEd]

I don't think he signs that. Not yet anyway. I think he wants what Bouye and Gilmore got.

 

[lexrageorge]

While I don't believe the signing of Gilmore necessarily means that Butler is gone, I think it does mean that the dollar value of a contract that the Pats would match goes down a bit. I cannot see the Pats investing $24M or more in annual cap space in two DB's.

As to whether Butler signs that, I think it depends how his market shakes out. Teams value first round picks pretty highly, sometimes irrationally so. We haven't heard anything about him visiting other teams or even leaks about his agent negotiating with other teams.

 

[pappymojo]

I don't think he signs that. Not yet anyway. I think he wants what Bouye and Gilmore got.

I love the player, but I don't think it really matters what he wants. He is a restricted free agent. They were unrestricted free agents.

 

[steveluck7]

I don't think he signs that. Not yet anyway. I think he wants what Bouye and Gilmore got.

Then sign the tender and get that next year

 

[DJnVa]

I love the player, but I don't think it really matters what he wants. He is a restricted free agent. They were unrestricted free agents.

Which is why we heard the story of Butler's agent asking (apparently) for him to be treated as an UFA.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I love the player, but I don't think it really matters what he wants. He is a restricted free agent. They were unrestricted free agents.

Agreed.

If he signs an extension with the Patriots, it'll be for Logan Ryan money. Buying out the year of RFA is going to cost something.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Then sign the tender and get that next year

For a guy whos made very little money in his career, is already 27 years old, and is one wrong cut/leg plant from never getting a big contract?

Nah. The Patriots have him over a barrel. Buy out the RFA year and take a 25% yearly discount.

 

[pappymojo]

What's a reasonable extension? Four years/$45 million with $25 guaranteed?

 

[steveluck7]

For a guy whos made very little money in his career, is already 27 years old, and is one wrong cut/leg plant from never getting a big contract?

Nah. The Patriots have him over a barrel. Buy out the RFA year and take a 25% yearly discount.

right, i agree. But he's not (likely) getting Gilmore / Bouye money this year so he can suck it up and sign the tender or sign an extension in the $10m range

 

[BigJimEd]

I love the player, but I don't think it really matters what he wants. He is a restricted free agent. They were unrestricted free agents.

I think we are all aware he is a restricted free agent and they were unrestricted.
And while ultimately it doesn't matter what he wants but only what someone will give him.
I do think what Butler wants matters to Butler and I'm not sure he's ready to accept less at this point. I think it may take a bit longer for him to come to that conclusion. That is why I said not yet.
I think the Pats would have signed him to that deal weeks ago. But who knows.

This is also Butler's first big negotiation so it might take him a bit to separate business from personal.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Questions about the first round draft pick a team would have to give to the Patriots if they sign Butler and the Pats don't match. I know the signing has to be done by April 21 and the pick is in this year's draft (per Volin), but:

If the signing team has multiple 1st round picks, which one goes to the Pats? What if neither is their own pick? And if they don't have a first round pick then they just can't sign a guy with a first round tender?

 

[lexrageorge]

Questions about the first round draft pick a team would have to give to the Patriots if they sign Butler and the Pats don't match. I know the signing has to be done by April 21 and the pick is in this year's draft (per Volin), but:

If the signing team has multiple 1st round picks, which one goes to the Pats? What if neither is their own pick? And if they don't have a first round pick then they just can't sign a guy with a first round tender?

Volin is correct; the CBA specifies that the signing period for RFA's expires at least 5 days prior to the NFL draft.

If a team does not have any first round picks, then they cannot offer Butler a contract.

If a team has multiple first round picks, the CBA has an interesting clause:

Any Club that does not have available, in the upcoming Draft, the selection choice or choices (its own or better choices in the applicable rounds) needed to provide Draft Choice Compensation in the event of a timely First Refusal Exercise Notice may not sign an Offer Sheet in such circumstances.

EDIT: Thanks AleXander. Your explanation below makes a lot more sense.

Seems to imply that the signing club has to make available its best draft choice in the applicable round. Which sort of throws a bit of an additional monkey wrench, in that a team signing Butler would be unlikely to go out and attempt to trade up in the first round.

 

[Ale Xander]

It doesn't matter if it's its best or not just has to be at least as high as its own (would have been had/if they not traded it)

i.e. If a team would be picking 15th but it traded that pick. It has to obtain a 14th or higher to be able to offer as compensation. If it obtains say the 14th and 10th, it doesn't have to offer the 10th, the 14th is good enough.

 

[steveluck7]

so, not that they're rumored, but CLE would forfeit #1 if they signed Butler for example?

 

[lexrageorge]

so, not that they're rumored, but CLE would forfeit #1 if they signed Butler for example?

Correct.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Lex, Ale, and Steve, thanks very much for the information.

 

[DJnVa]

Caller on ESPN Radio just now said that the Patriots/Saints are colluding because they are not allowed to discuss trading Butler because he hasn't signed his tender, therefore he isn't eligible for a trade.

He then said the NFL doesn't allow trades for cash so the Browns/Texans deal is against rules.

One would think the host would call the dude out--especially since the NFL *did* allow the trade. But, you know, it's ESPN.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

It's a CALLER on ESPN. If you hold talk show callers (sports or otherwise) to any standards there would be no more talk radio.

 

[DJnVa]

It's a CALLER on ESPN. If you hold talk show callers (sports or otherwise) to any standards there would be no more talk radio.

Oh I know, but engage with the guy.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Oh I know, but engage with the guy.

No, you just hang up on them, say they're an idiot and move it along. Engaging that type of caller on sports radio is the worst type of radio.

 

[E5 Yaz]

There’s question as to whether Simpson, a neophyte agent - who began doing this “as a hobby” - knows his ass from his elbow. Simpson has taken to defending himself. And Butler – who’s a pretty simple (not an insult) guy that just wants to work his ass off, play football and have a great time – has to be thinking to himself that even working at Popeye’s after getting the toe from community college it wasn’t this stressful.

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/curran-arc-butlers-career-made-moment-inevitable

 

[Van Everyman]

That's an amazing column but I thought I read somewhere that if Butler doesn't sign the tender his contract reverts to something along the lines of $500K. Is that true?

 

[bankshot1]

That's an amazing column but I thought I read somewhere that if Butler doesn't sign the tender his contract reverts to something along the lines of $500K. Is that true?

I read that if by (sometime this summer) if Butler does not sign the tender, his salary drops to 110% of last year's salary, which I think was $600K.

 

[BigJimEd]

If the dust settles and they have Hightower back and 20+ million in cap room still, just offer him a 2/22 with clause about not franchising at the end. Pull some of next years tag money forward to this year.

Pulling this from the Cooks thread. Seen it suggested a couple times though. (Also similar suggestions for Garappolo)

Pats don't need to pull money forward. If they don't spend it they can always carry it over. There's no help cap wise paying ahead of time.
It would allow the Pats to possible use the franchise tag on another player though. Maybe it is worth it in that regard.

Not sure Butler would agree though. Gives him money up front and more security so possibly. He may want to force Patriots hand though.

 

[tims4wins]

I think that misses the point. I don't think they believe in tagging players any more. If the player doesn't like his situation he will be shipped out.

 

[shoosh77]

I think that misses the point. I don't think they believe in tagging players any more. If the player doesn't like his situation he will be shipped out.

But they aren't tagging, it's just the threat of it. Just creates more options and locks him in for two years.

 

[tims4wins]

But they aren't tagging, it's just the threat of it. Just creates more options and locks him in for two years.

Yeah but even the threat of it creates ill will. It is holding the player hostage. I don't think that is how they operate any more.

 

[Ed Hillel]

2/22 doesn't make sense, since you're basically franchising him right now for next season when you have leverage not to. It also unnecessarily adds in injury risk. If there's an offer, it will be something like 2/15. Butler probably rejects it, but you never know. The best option at this point might be just to have him play this season and then take the 3rd round comp. Love the guy, but his agent appears to be pricing him out of New England, unfortunately. I'd love to find a middle ground, but who knows if we're already past that.

 

[tims4wins]

2/22 doesn't make sense, since you're basically franchising him right now for next season when you have leverage not to. It also unnecessarily adds in injury risk. If there's an offer, it will be something like 2/15. Butler probably rejects it, but you never know. The best option at this point might be just to have him play this season and then take the 3rd round comp. Love the guy, but his agent appears to be pricing him out of New England, unfortunately. I'd love to find a middle ground, but who knows if we're already past that.

Right. This is just a guess but I am guessing the Pats already offered something like that and were turned down.

 

[DourDoerr]

Is Butler close to Revis from the year of playing together? If so, he might get (or be getting) some advice on how to handle negotiations as Revis is the chess master negotiator as a player, continually betting on himself and pretty much maximizing his career earnings.

If he is getting advice from Revis, I imagine he'd tell Butler to bet on himself and sign the tender, then hit the open market or force the Pats to franchise.

 

[loshjott]

Butler is a guy I can understand would/should go for for every last dime. Never thought he'd have a chance for a long NFL career never mind huge payday. Went from making the greatest play in SB history to weeks later becoming the #1 CB on the SB champs with that added pressure. Followed that up with two good to great Pro Bowl seasons as #1 CB and top 5-15 in the league. Oh, and another SB championship. Plus he's old and has only one chance for the huge payday.

If I'm him I'm definitely calling Revis for advice.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

If I was Butler I would try to lock up $10-14 mm guaranteed over 2 years and plan to hit the market at 29 y/o for one big payday. That would make me set for life if the worse case happens, but in line for a bonanza if everything works out.

Seems reckless to play for $3.9 mm and risk that other $10 mm he could likely lock up now.

 

[DourDoerr]

Since I introduced Revis as a possible Butler advisor - with zero knowledge of it being fact, so it's highly probable to be irrelevant - feel free to ignore but thought I'd share as I was curious about Revis' contracts. This was what I found on wikipedia, so grain of salt.

On August 15, 2007, the Jets came to an agreement with Revis (on his first contract). The 47 page contract was worth approximately $36 million over five years… On September 5, (2010), an agreement was reached on a four-year $32 million guaranteed contract...(after holding out the pre-season). (With Tampa) Revis' 6-year deal (in 2013) was worth $96 million, making him the highest paid defensive back in NFL history, however there was no guaranteed money included. On March 12, 2014, within hours of being released by the Buccaneers, Revis signed a 1-year contract worth $12 million with the New England Patriots, with the salary cap hit spread over two years. Jets signed Revis to a five-year, $70 million contract with $39 million guaranteed on March 10, 2015.

In light of the large first contract, Revis pretty much has had FU money from that point on, giving him leverage that Butler has never had and, of course, doesn't have now. Every couple of years, regardless of the contract signed, Revis threatened to hold out and the teams seem to cave. Good luck getting BB to follow suit. Possibly the most impressive contract, I think, is the Tampa one coming off a torn ACL less than a year earlier, but didn't see a reference on what kind of signing bonus it entailed. Tampa likely paid dearly for that year.

 

[5dice]

Revis was almost a generational talent. Malcolm Butler is a good to excellent corner, bit let's be careful here with the comparison.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Revis also is known as one of the smartest players in the league when it comes to contract talks, while Butler is using a first-time agent

 

[bankshot1]

So if Butler is guaranteed $3.9M this year, (call it 4) and the franchise tag will be around $15M next year, and factoring in the Pats always seem to extract some value, and Butler has very little real leverage, putting aside hurt feelings whats the win/win # if the Pats want to keep him and he wants to be in Foxboro?

My 2 scents

Give the Pats a 10-15% discount off the tag #?
Butler gets guaranteed $, security, Pats a discount and reasonable 2/3 yr. deal

2 yr. 4m + .9 (15) = 2/17.5 (this year all g'teed, '18 mostly all g'teed)
3 yr 4M + .85 (15) + .85 (16 est) = 3/30 ('19 not g'teed)

now rip it apart

 

[DJnVa]

Revis was almost a generational talent. Malcolm Butler is a good to excellent corner, bit let's be careful here with the comparison.

Seemed pretty clear the post didn't say their talent was similar. It said maybe they became close and Butler has reached out.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Pittsburgh writer makes the case for the Steelers to sign Butler to an offer sheet

Yes, that would essentially be a trade — the Steelers would have to surrender their first-round pick — but let’s be brutally candid here: The gap between the Steelers and the Patriots only widened Thursday when New England signed Stephon Gilmore to a massive free-agent deal. That gave the Patriots two shutdown-caliber corners. The Steelers have none, which is a problem against Tom Brady.

Go ahead and laugh at the idea. I'll tell you what's truly laughable: Brady's 22 touchdowns and zero interceptions against Mike Tomlin-coached teams.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2017/03/10/Joe-Starkey-Pittsburgh-Steelers-should-go-after-Patriots-cornerback-Malcolm-Butler/stories/201703100140

 

[dcmissle]

Not only is Butler not Revis, and not only because their situations differ otherwise, but also the NEP are as far removed from the Woody/Tanny/Rex led NYJs as a team can be, so the situations are not comparable.

Butler should not allow a newbie agent to double down on a bad situation. Sign the tender, buy whatever injury insurance may be available and makes sense, play your best on the tender, then say bye-bye. Pats are not going to tag him and pay the franchise number for a year. That's not how they roll and he's not THAT good.

 

[dbn]

So if Butler is guaranteed $3.9M this year, (call it 4) and the franchise tag will be around $15M next year, and factoring in the Pats always seem to extract some value, and Butler has very little real leverage, putting aside hurt feelings whats the win/win # if the Pats want to keep him and he wants to be in Foxboro?

My 2 scents

Give the Pats a 10-15% discount off the tag #?
Butler gets guaranteed $, security, Pats a discount and reasonable 2/3 yr. deal

2 yr. 4m + .9 (15) = 2/17.5 (this year all g'teed, '18 mostly all g'teed)
3 yr 4M + .85 (15) + .85 (16 est) = 3/30 ('19 not g'teed)

now rip it apart

You never told us what your two scents are.

 

[5dice]

Seemed pretty clear the post didn't say their talent was similar. It said maybe they became close and Butler has reached out.

Regardless of whether he is consulting with Revis, he is not in a position where he can make the kind of demands that skip the line of paying your dues while the team still has leverage unlike say, a Revis.

 

[E5 Yaz]

You never told us what your two scents are.

Sandalwood and napalm

 

[ifmanis5]

Sandalwood and napalm

The great forgotten underground comedy duo of the 1970's.

 

[bankshot1]

You never told us what your two scents are.

Old Spice and Hai karate

 

[dbn]

Old Spice and Hai karate

Nice reference!

 

[Rough Carrigan]

Pittsburgh writer makes the case for the Steelers to sign Butler to an offer sheet



http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe-starkey/2017/03/10/Joe-Starkey-Pittsburgh-Steelers-should-go-after-Patriots-cornerback-Malcolm-Butler/stories/201703100140

Along with the sweet, sweet tone of desperation from the Pittsburgh writer, the thing I found most interesting was his saying that no one has taken a player from another team in such a circumstance since 2003! Jesus, NFLPA what the hell are you doing? If the CBA terms result in contract provisions that completely discourage competition for players then you're not doing your job as a players' union.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Along with the sweet, sweet tone of desperation from the Pittsburgh writer, the thing I found most interesting was his saying that no one has taken a player from another team in such a circumstance since 2003! Jesus, NFLPA what the hell are you doing? If the CBA terms result in contract provisions that completely discourage competition for players then you're not doing your job as a players' union.

I also love that the poll is running 3-1 in favor of the Steelers doing this

 

[nighthob]

You never told us what your two scents are.

His two scents are Parfum de Lait Caillé and Parfum de Vin Gâté. They're very popular in the slums of Paris.

 

[Archer1979]

Sooo... does Butler end up going to NO for their number one pick? Could NE have given up their number one for Cooks as a safety valve to the deal?