2017 Butler Watch: Love Me Tender

[OurF'ingCity]

Good of Mike to apologize, but not really sure he actually addressed the issue raised by his initial post, which is why being single (or anything else related to Butler) would be an "off-field variable." As BRYeleJR has already noted, Gronk (just to take one example) presents a million and one "off-field variables" but there has been zero indication the Patriots have considered moving on from Gronk (and if they did it would presumably be tied to cost and injury history, not his off-field activities unless they crossed the line into illegal or otherwise seriously objectionable conduct).

 

[BRYeleJR]

Reiss took the time to get back to me on Twitter, and I appreciate that -- not many guys would apologize or write a blog post to try and clarify his point. He gets points from me for that (not that he cares) and the benefit of the doubt because, as many said here, he's usually one of the good ones.

But even in his apology on the blog, he says "The Patriots covert players who don't have a lot of off-field variables." OK, like what? Oh, Malcom Brown ... was married with two children and "mature beyond his years. Vince Wilfork, too."

Marriage is but one variable. I have friends who are married and act immature. I have friends who are unmarried and act mature. He adds "...the player with a wife and kids will have a more predictable day-to-day life and is more settled than a single person. Generally speaking. There are, of course, exceptions." Two qualifiers after a statement.

I appreciate him getting back to me and taking the time to do it -- it's a nice gesture -- but I'm still not buying: "The Patriots like married guys because they tend to have more stable lives" when they have and have had players on their roster who contradict this.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Imagine if politicians, or political pundits were held to the same standard as sportswriters. I am not at all joking,

A guy from CBC radio did an analysis of sports call in radio. He is a nerdy artsy millennial and he admitted he wanted to do a hit piece making fun of it. But, he ended up comparing sports shows to political shows, and found two stark differences, people when wrong had to admit it in sports discussions, factual errors were crucified, and the other statements without support were not allowed.

 

[Marciano490]

Reiss took the time to get back to me on Twitter, and I appreciate that -- not many guys would apologize or write a blog post to try and clarify his point. He gets points from me for that (not that he cares) and the benefit of the doubt because, as many said here, he's usually one of the good ones.

But even in his apology on the blog, he says "The Patriots covert players who don't have a lot of off-field variables." OK, like what? Oh, Malcom Brown ... was married with two children and "mature beyond his years. Vince Wilfork, too."

Marriage is but one variable. I have friends who are married and act immature. I have friends who are unmarried and act mature. He adds "...the player with a wife and kids will have a more predictable day-to-day life and is more settled than a single person. Generally speaking. There are, of course, exceptions." Two qualifiers after a statement.

I appreciate him getting back to me and taking the time to do it -- it's a nice gesture -- but I'm still not buying: "The Patriots like married guys because they tend to have more stable lives" when they have and have had players on their roster who contradict this.

Wasn't Tom Brady fathering a child out of wedlock with Bridget Moynihan then leaving her for Gisele in 2007? Maybe after we lost the SB and Brady got hurt the following year BB decided he only wanted married players on his team. Except Gronk. And playboy Edelman.

The odd thing is that Patriots players have some of the most high profile relationships of any football players. Gronk's dated a number of dubiously famous women. Amendola is dating Olivia Culpo. Edelman, after his IG scandal, is dating Adriana Lima.

 

[Toe Nash]

Aaron Hernandez was engaged and had a kid. Malcom Brown seems by all accounts to indeed be mature, but he probably would be whether or not he was married (he doesn't drink, and from everything I've read it seems like he just likes fishing, family and playing video games). Very weak point from Reiss.

 

[BRYeleJR]

Edelman, after his IG scandal, is dating Adriana Lima.

I think they broke up, but your point is well taken.

 

[MillarTime]

[checking in for Butler news and slowly backpedaling out of the thread]

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Aaron Hernandez was engaged and had a kid. Malcom Brown seems by all accounts to indeed be mature, but he probably would be whether or not he was married (he doesn't drink, and from everything I've read it seems like he just likes fishing, family and playing video games). Very weak point from Reiss.

I guess he has to try to salvage whatever point he was trying to make. The problem is that any explanation won't be great because the family=maturity point is so dumb in the first place.

 

[pappymojo]

Imagine if politicians, or political pundits were held to the same standard as sportswriters. I am not at all joking,

A guy from CBC radio did an analysis of sports call in radio. He is a nerdy artsy millennial and he admitted he wanted to do a hit piece making fun of it. But, he ended up comparing sports shows to political shows, and found two stark differences, people when wrong had to admit it in sports discussions, factual errors were crucified, and the other statements without support were not allowed.

Chris Mortenson excepted.

 

[Stuffy McInnis]

Reiss was just backing away from the (unintentionally) implied sexuality factor. Whether or not married vs single is really a preference for the Patriots is minor point that wouldn't have interested social media at all.

 

[jsinger121]

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet 1m1 minute ago
The #Saints are hosting #Patriots RFA CB Malcolm Butler on his visit now & there is momentum toward finalizing a deal before he leaves.

 

[Tony C]

Reiss should be taking a ton of heat...that piece is ridiculous...an insinuation like that can be taken in a multitude of ways (partying, orientation, etc.) and Reiss should know better.

I agree - but his apology isn't really helping.

The argument that single people are unreliable/unpredictable is horseshit. And lazy. I really doubt the Patriots are making player personnel issues based on classifications as generic as "Is single"

Wow. I just read that Reiss piece -- agree fully that Reiss is way too good for this, and his apology was half-assed. It still sounds as if he knows something he can't report -- total BS, he should be embarrassed. Report or shut up - - don't insinuate and then apologize about tone.

 

[Hagios]

Wow. I just read that Reiss piece -- agree fully that Reiss is way too good for this, and his apology was half-assed. It still sounds as if he knows something he can't report -- total BS, he should be embarrassed. Report or shut up - - don't insinuate and then apologize about tone.

Agreed that it was a non-apology apology. I do think it would make an interesting empirical study to compare player performance against their projections after marriage. I could see it going up or down. I remember Dustin Pedroia's recent comments in response to the Red Sox' sleep room that he's got small kids and he gets up when they get up, comfortable bed or no.

 

[MillarTime]

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet 1m1 minute ago
The #Saints are hosting #Patriots RFA CB Malcolm Butler on his visit now & there is momentum toward finalizing a deal before he leaves.

Wonder if this means Butler contract or trade with the Pats?

 

[TheoShmeo]

A friend posits that Reiss is carrying the water of the Pats and helping them engage in a Sox like smear campaign. I think he is nuts. I don't see the Pats as having that kind of history and I have more respect for Reiss than to believe that.

Does his contention at all resonate? Do people think this is possible or even likely? The ONLY reason why I even pause at all is that Reiss' piece was very out of character.

 

[JohnnyK]

A friend posits that Reiss is carrying the water of the Pats and helping them engage in a Sox like smear campaign.

What's the point in smearing him? If they want the best possible return they should sing his praises, and if they want him to stay it probably doesn't help the relationship if they drag him through the mud.

Yes, your friend is nuts.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Reiss made a poor argument, it's not some smear campaign. People here are smart enough to recognize that. Now let's move on or over to the media thread, please?

Sorry to get all moddy soundy, but it's a bit played out and there's real Butler stuff going on.

 

[DJnVa]

Reiss made a poor argument, it's not some smear campaign. People here are smart enough to recognize that. Now let's move on or over to the media thread, please?

Yeah---I *think* he was trying to say marriage/kids may be a "PLUS" and that single was simply not that plus, but not a minus. It was still clunky and not needed/

 

[Van Everyman]

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet 1m1 minute ago
The #Saints are hosting #Patriots RFA CB Malcolm Butler on his visit now & there is momentum toward finalizing a deal before he leaves.

The only thing that can be "finalized" is an offer sheet, yes?

 

[joe dokes]

The only thing that can be "finalized" is an offer sheet, yes?

Literally, yes. And then they are potentially on the hook to part with #11.

A sloppy use of the term would include "we agree to pay you x if you sign the NE tender and we agree on a deal with NE that looks like this."

 

[tims4wins]

The only thing that can be "finalized" is an offer sheet, yes?

Saints: Malcolm, we are prepared to offer you a 4 year, $45M deal
Butler: Great! Let's sign it!
Saints: sorry, we need to negotiate a trade first
Butler: but I can just sign and you give up your first, that is how RFA works
Saints: we don't want to give up that much
Butler: if you really want me, just let me sign

So much respect from the Saints!

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

The only thing that can be "finalized" is an offer sheet, yes?

I assume what this means is that the Saints and Butler would agree to a deal under which Butler would be willing to sign his tender to be traded. At that point, it would be up to the Saints and the Patriots to agree upon a trade. So, two pieces: (1) Saints and Patriots agree to a trade in principle. (2) Butler and the Saints agree to a deal that Butler would take.

My assumption, as soon as I heard that Butler was taking a visit to New Orleans, is that number 1 is already taken care of -- that is, the Patriots and the Saints have an agreed upon framework under which the Patriots would trade Butler. So, Butler and the Saints working things out would "finalize" the deal in that sense.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

The "evil" Patriots will probably end up doing Butler a huge favor by allowing him to sign with Saints for less than their #11 (probably their second rounder)...there is a reason RFA's are never signed and this accommodation for Butler is huge. Most fans, including me, won't like it though.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

The "evil" Patriots will probably end up doing Butler a huge favor by allowing him to sign with Saints for less than their #11 (probably their second rounder)...there is a reason RFA's are never signed and this accommodation for Butler is huge. Most fans, including me, won't like it though.

Maybe the Patriots know the Steelers are lurking? They don't get an 11 if the Steelers sign him. Maybe the Saints will throw in a second rounder.

I think this will turn out good for Butler. But I also think the Patriots are doing it for their own self-interested reasons. That is to say, if there's a deal worked out with the Saints, the Patriots will do it because they value whatever the Saints are offering more than they value Butler playing under the tender. If it's "just" pick 32, I know that will be hard for some of us to take, but they seem to know what they are doing.

 

[Stitch01]

I still prefer Butler is extended but think this happens for 42 and a 4th next year.

 

[BigJimEd]

The "evil" Patriots will probably end up doing Butler a huge favor by allowing him to sign with Saints for less than their #11 (probably their second rounder)...there is a reason RFA's are never signed and this accommodation for Butler is huge. Most fans, including me, won't like it though.

The Patriots will do it IF they feel it is in the team's best interests. I really doubt they'll be doing anyone a favor.

 

[rodderick]

Losing Butler would mean that this team, despite all the moves it has made during free agency, stands to be at very best equal to the 2016 Patriots. That would mean they lost Butler, Ryan, Sheard and Long, and replaced the 4 of them with Gilmore and Ealy. I'm very uneasy about trading Butler for a second rounder, unless a huge deal for Jimmy is on the cards, and then they use early draft picks to get a corner and a pass rusher.

 

[Saints Rest]

Saints: Malcolm, we are prepared to offer you a 4 year, $45M deal
Butler: Great! Let's sign it!
Saints: sorry, we need to negotiate a trade first
Butler: but I can just sign and you give up your first, that is how RFA works
Saints: we don't want to give up that much
Butler: if you really want me, just let me sign

So much respect from the Saints!

Couldn't this also happen?

Saints: Malcolm, we are prepared to offer you a 4 year, $45M deal
Butler: Great! Let's sign it! I'll just sign and you give up your first, that is how RFA works
Saints: Right!
Patriots: 4 year, $45M deal? Hell, yeah, we'll match that. We assumed you wanted Gilmore's terms. See you in July!
Butler: wait. what?

 

[tims4wins]

Losing Butler would mean that this team, despite all the moves it has made during free agency, stands to be at very best equal to the 2016 Patriots. That would mean they lost Butler, Ryan, Sheard and Long, and replaced the 4 of them with Gilmore and Ealy. I'm very uneasy about trading Butler for a second rounder, unless a huge deal for Jimmy is on the cards, and then they use early draft picks to get a corner and a pass rusher.

You are assuming no improvement from the likes of Rowe and Cyrus Jones

 

[MillarTime]

You are assuming no improvement from the likes of Rowe and Cyrus Jones

....and no additional moves.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

Losing Butler would mean that this team, despite all the moves it has made during free agency, stands to be at very best equal to the 2016 Patriots.

Well, they've added pieces on offense but I agree with respect to the D. That said, the offseason is not over and they could add another CB via free agency, trade or the draft. I do think they need to add another CB as I don't think Rowe (or Cyrus Jones) can be a viable #2, but then again it also took me a while to buy into Logan Ryan as a #2 as well, so who knows.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

I still prefer Butler is extended but think this happens for 42 and a 4th next year.

This is where I am also but what are the chances at this point? Less than 5% I say.

Someone like Jourdan Lewis (Michigan) could fit the bill as a 2nd round corner. That means Gilmore/Rowe with lots of safety help, no?

 

[Saints Rest]

Losing Butler would mean that this team, despite all the moves it has made during free agency, stands to be at very best equal to the 2016 Patriots. That would mean they lost Butler, Ryan, Sheard and Long, and replaced the 4 of them with Gilmore and Ealy. I'm very uneasy about trading Butler for a second rounder, unless a huge deal for Jimmy is on the cards, and then they use early draft picks to get a corner and a pass rusher.

You forgot about Guy on the DL. As well as the changes on offense.

Plus, we don't know what they might do to replace Butler if he does leave, be that veteran FA, a trade, or a draft pick.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I thought Rowe played pretty darn well last year; and Cyrus Jones' issues on ST tainted the way he was perceived on defense

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I still prefer Butler is extended but think this happens for 42 and a 4th next year.

My guess is that the Patriots and the Saints already have the deal wired and did before the Cooks trade. The Patriots took Cooks early so that Saints wouldn't pay the $900k or whatever that was due right after the deal. My guess is the deal probably involved swapping the 32 back and forth and the Saints giving up their 4th so that the Patriots would re-vest at 132/131 with the Seahawks' pick.

I hope it's something else in addition to 32, but don't think that it will be. If it really is just 42, I'll be severely disappointed, although maybe the Patriots don't view the 32 and the 42 as very different. The fifth year option seems like a big deal.

 

[tims4wins]

My guess is that the Patriots and the Saints already have the deal wired and did before the Cooks trade. The Patriots took Cooks early so that Saints wouldn't pay the $900k or whatever that was due right after the deal. My guess is the deal probably involved swapping the 32 back and forth and the Saints giving up their 4th so that the Patriots would re-vest at 132/131 with the Seahawks' pick.

I hope it's something else in addition to 32, but don't think that it will be. If it really is just 42, I'll be severely disappointed, although maybe the Patriots don't view the 32 and the 42 as very different. The fifth year option seems like a big deal.

This may be true, it is hard to know, but BB seems very opposed to the idea since the player isn't under contract. At least, he has said so historically.

 

[Thetoddwalker]

deuce mcallister? @dmcallister26

FYI don't expect a contract agreement to be announced until compensation is worked out between Pats.

 

[Saints Rest]

Here's the list of UFA's at CB:
(all info, including blurbs, came from NFL.com)

Carr, Brandon
CB
UFA
9th Season
DAL
TBD
The Cowboys kept trying to replace Carr, and the veteran cornerback kept fighting off the competition. Against all odds, he started all 80 games of the five-year, $51 million contract signed in 2012.

Claiborne, Morris
CB
UFA
5th Season
DAL
TBD
(See: Kirkpatrick blurb.) Claiborne played the best ball of his career before getting hurt in Dallas last season, but the injuries are not a new trend. He's missed 30 games since 2013.

Flowers, Brandon
CB
UFA
9th Season
SD
TBD

Moore, Sterling
CB
UFA
6th Season
NO
TBD

Revis, Darrelle
CB
UFA
10th Season
NYJ
TBD

Robinson, Patrick
CB
UFA
7th Season
IND
TBD

Wright, Shareece
CB
UFA
6th Season
BAL
TBD

Robey-Coleman, Nickell
DB
UFA
4th Season
BUF
TBD
One of the smallest corners in the league, Robey-Coleman is limited to slot duty. He earned a contract extension prior to the 2015 season only to be benched by the Bills last November.

Thomas, Phillip
DB
UFA
3rd Season
BUF
TBD

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

I thought Rowe played pretty darn well last year; and Cyrus Jones' issues on ST tainted the way he was perceived on defense

Jones had early, positive reviews during camp last year:

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2016/07/31/rookies-cyrus-jones-kamu-grugier-hill-turning-heads-at-patriots-camp

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

This may be true, it is hard to know, but BB seems very opposed to the idea since the player isn't under contract. At least, he has said so historically.

In my exists-only-in-my-head scenario, Butler would have had to be part of the discussion. Talks between the Patriots and the Saints would be a non-starter unless Butler would be amenable to signing with NOS and with some understanding of the terms they would offer.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Robey-Coleman may be the only option out of that group. Unless Revis lost 15 pounds during off-season.

 

[ZMart100]

I still believe that it is in the Patriots best interest to wait to talk to NO until Butler signs the tender. Improve the chances that the Saints sign Butler to an offer sheet that the Patriots can live with. If Butler signs the tender, it increases the negotiating power of the Patriots with the Saints to get the best deal possible.

 

[tims4wins]

I still believe that it is in the Patriots best interest to wait to talk to NO until Butler signs the tender. Improve the chances that the Saints sign Butler to an offer sheet that the Patriots can live with. If Butler signs the tender, it increases the negotiating power of the Patriots with the Saints to get the best deal possible.

I may be wrong but I believe that if Butler signs the tender, NO can't offer him an offer sheet.

 

[bankshot1]

The pats were the only team to offer a #1 (32) plus 3/4 swap sweetener for Cooks. Who else was going to give them a 1?

Answer: Nobody.

Pats already did the Saints a solid.

IMO Butler has greater value than a WR. (ie Brady makes lots of WRs look great).

If they don't get back 32 + I'd would not agree to it. I would play hardball.

If this turns out to be Butler +32 for Cooks +42, I think that is a huge overpay for Cooks.

 

[ZMart100]

I may be wrong but I believe that if Butler signs the tender, NO can't offer him an offer sheet.

That is my understanding as well. I should have been more clear. Wait until Butler signs the tender OR signs an offer sheet that gets a first round pick.

 

[Stitch01]

Jones had early, positive reviews during camp last year:

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2016/07/31/rookies-cyrus-jones-kamu-grugier-hill-turning-heads-at-patriots-camp

Yeah, way too early to write off C Jones as a corner. He wasnt atrocious there as a rookie.

 

[ZMart100]

That is my understanding as well. I should have been more clear. Wait until Butler signs the tender OR signs an offer sheet that gets a first round pick.

To further clarify my thinking, agreeing to a trade right now with NO is agreeing to transfer some of the Patriots' surplus value in the way of draft compensation to Butler in his contract. I see no reason to agree to do that.

 

[shoosh77]

New day, same key stroke...F5 F5 F5

 

[jimbobim]

I'm very confused. M. Butler is under some deluded impression he has the leverage and rights of an UFA. Local hero nice prime age and at a position that's not easy to fill cheaply (see Gilmore) and the Pats are going to agreed to something more than 32(some mid rounders like either a 3rd or a 2nd ? I imagine maybe a 3rd and 2nd plus 32 is maybe amendable ) but not 11.

In a blink of an eye the first round tender all of a sudden league wide doesn't mean very much... Something smells wrong about that especially considering all the stuff we ve heard saying BB is a CBA stickler.

 

[BigJimEd]

Except Butler isn't likely to sign the tender until either
1) The Pats agree to trade him
2) Deadline to sign before offer can be reduced. And even then it's possible he may not sign, wanting to try to force Patriots hand.

I might push it but not sure the Patriots feel it would be worth it.



On a side note, do people really think Belichick offered the 32 for Cooks as a solid to his buddy? He didn't because he thought that Cooks was worth it and he was unlikely to get him cheaper.
Did any team offer more? Very doubtful, just like every other trade the high bidder makes the deal.