2018 HoF Ballot

Dahabenzapple2

Mr. McGuire / Axl's Counter
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Can I repeat that the induction of Jack Morris is a pathetic use of the "old-timers committee" vote

Before Luis Tiant?!?!
 

moretsyndrome

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So Jim Thome plays 5 years longer than Larry Walker and accrues a whopping .3 WAR in that time, yet gets 90% of the vote while Walker gets 34%? OK.

Even if you dislike WAR and are more of an "eyeballer", doesn't Walker track as a much, much better fielder and baserunner - just a better all around baseball player - than Thome?

Also, either the photography on his rookie card is incredibly flattering, or else Thome peaks at about 75 pounds heavier than where he started, but he doesn't get any of the Bagwell/Piazza treatment.

It's amazing what being a nice guy can do.

And the Coors thing fascinates me. Nolan Arenado has 148 HR. He's 26. Give him 12 more years, all in Colorado. How many more do you think he'd have to hit in those 12 years to get consideration? 400? 450? 500? Given that the voters seem to have placed some sort of vague handicap on former Rockies, it's really hard to say.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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May 5, 2017
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Also, either the photography on his rookie card is incredibly flattering, or else Thome peaks at about 75 pounds heavier than where he started, but he doesn't get any of the Bagwell/Piazza treatment.
I gave up on guessing who's done steroids about 20-some years ago when Manny Alexander got busted, and I think it's naive whenever guys like Thome and Griffey are lauded as "clean" stars. That said, I will point out that when Thome was breaking into the majors, the most used phrase in any discussion of him was "once he fills out". Early in his career he looked (and moved) like a newborn Clydesdale, which is why even as he broke in as a 3B, he was always projected as a 1B.

*
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
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So Jim Thome plays 5 years longer than Larry Walker and accrues a whopping .3 WAR in that time, yet gets 90% of the vote while Walker gets 34%? OK.

Even if you dislike WAR and are more of an "eyeballer", doesn't Walker track as a much, much better fielder and baserunner - just a better all around baseball player - than Thome?

Also, either the photography on his rookie card is incredibly flattering, or else Thome peaks at about 75 pounds heavier than where he started, but he doesn't get any of the Bagwell/Piazza treatment.

It's amazing what being a nice guy can do.

And the Coors thing fascinates me. Nolan Arenado has 148 HR. He's 26. Give him 12 more years, all in Colorado. How many more do you think he'd have to hit in those 12 years to get consideration? 400? 450? 500? Given that the voters seem to have placed some sort of vague handicap on former Rockies, it's really hard to say.
Just asking .. You don't think this "vague handicap" is warranted?

Larry Walker career home road splits

Home .348 / .431 / .637
Road .278 / .370 / .495
 
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E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
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David Ortiz's road OBP is forty points lower than his home one. Shouldn't Fenway carry a similar "vague handicap?"
It probably should ... but what does that have to do with a comparison of Jim Thome and Larry Walker?
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
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Jul 19, 2005
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It probably should ... but what does that have to do with a comparison of Jim Thome and Larry Walker?
My point was that other HoFers/future HoFers have had big home/road splits and nobody really cares that much, but writers and fans alike hold the Colorado thing against all former Rockies (and react similarly to the possibility of acquiring active Rockies). I missed the part about Thome, I guess.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
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My point was that other HoFers/future HoFers have had big home/road splits and nobody really cares that much, but writers and fans alike hold the Colorado thing against all former Rockies (and react similarly to the possibility of acquiring active Rockies). I missed the part about Thome, I guess.
Well .. there are hitter's parks and then there's Coors Field.

David Ortiz's home/road ops split difference is .40 .. Larry Walker's is .203! And he ran that difference up, despite playing many years in the Big Owe - a rather extreme pitchers park IIRC.

Coors field .. particularly pre-humidor .. distorted statistics like no other park before it (maybe the Baker Bowl?). Good for the writers for having a modest understanding of park effects.

But I like Larry Walker - and I think he has a marginal HOF case - based on his all around abilities. In many ways he has a similar case to Dwight Evans.
 

DanoooME

above replacement level
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Mar 16, 2008
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Well .. there are hitter's parks and then there's Coors Field.

David Ortiz's home/road ops split difference is .40 .. Larry Walker's is .203! And he ran that difference up, despite playing many years in the Big Owe - a rather extreme pitchers park IIRC.

Coors field .. particularly pre-humidor .. distorted statistics like no other park before it (maybe the Baker Bowl?). Good for the writers for having a modest understanding of park effects.

But I like Larry Walker - and I think he has a marginal HOF case - based on his all around abilities. In many ways he has a similar case to Dwight Evans.
In that "extreme pitchers park", Walker's Home/Road is .286/.363/.500 vs. .278/.350/.468, so DD does have a point that there tends to be at least a small affect for all players that needs to discount the overall effect. And in Walker's case, he should have had better road numbers than home numbers, not worse, if the park factor was as huge as you insinuated.
 

Brand Name

make hers mark
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Moving the Line
Thanks, I should have kept clicking. Man, 1 vote.
I knew of Fox, but it was 2. Remember looking this up every season and posting it when discussing a hypothetical fan collective vote contrasted with the Rock and Roll Hall's approach, where it was asked if it would ever alter history (no). Fox got 295 votes of 297 required for the 1985 class.
 

E5 Yaz

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I knew of Fox, but it was 2. Remember looking this up every season and posting it when discussing a hypothetical fan collective vote contrasted with the Rock and Roll Hall's approach, where it was asked if it would ever alter history (no). Fox got 295 votes of 297 required for the 1985 class.
You should change the wiki entry on this then
 

Spacemans Bong

chapeau rose
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Well .. not staying healthy was exactly the reason (according to Theo) that Ortiz was the DH. He had had a checkered injury history with the Twins.
He couldn't play the position well anyway, all metrics point to Ortiz being a pretty bad first baseman and Edgar being a pretty good third baseman.

It's possible with Manny Ramirez being one of the worst left fielders in the history of baseball that the defensive penalty of Ortiz was less than the defensive penalty of Manny in left, but Ortiz was always going to end up as a DH.
 

grimshaw

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Regardless - Martinez played the equivalent of 3.5 seasons in the field which is 1.75 seasons more than Ortiz did, so it's a pretty minor factor when comparing the two in terms of defensive capabilities.

Ortiz artificially lost "fielding" value by having a longer career too.
 
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coremiller

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It's too bad there aren't any established statistical techniques to adjust for park effects.
 

Spacemans Bong

chapeau rose
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It's too bad there aren't any established statistical techniques to adjust for park effects.
Personally, I think adjusting for park effects underrates Walker. He was unbelievable at Coors during his prime, far, far, far beyond what can be explained by merely park effects. He deserves credit for putting up video game numbers at Coors. He was great on the road, but he had some Fred Lynn-esque ability to be absolutely unbelievable at home. I have no idea why, my only guess is Walker was a hit-to-all-fields type IIRC and Coors's large outfield maybe gave him a ton of real estate to drop balls into.

Walker at Coors

1996: 393/448/800 (he hit 142/216/307 on the road...that simply has to be the widest split ever from a player in anything close to a full season - Walker played 83 games)

1997: 384/460/709 (actually had a higher OPS away from home, which is probably why he won the MVP that year)

Now the fun begins:

1998: 418/483/757

1999: 461/531/879 (!!!!!!)

2000: 406/483/773
 

E5 Yaz

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The one and only ... Peter King

Looks like four deserving baseball Hall of Famers got in last week. There’s one I think is tremendously deserving who didn’t get in, and he got just 37 percent of the vote, and I suppose it’s in part because this was his first year. But Omar Vizquel is a Hall of Fame baseball player. Only 42 players in the history of baseball have had more hits than Vizquel’s 2,877 (he had four more hits than Babe Ruth) … and no one would think Vizquel should go in because of his bat. He’s the best-fielding shortstop I’ve ever seen. Ozzie Smith won one more Gold Glove, 12 to 11, and I’d never denigrate Smith, because one of the best-fielding shortstops in history deserves to be in the Hall, for sure. Vizquel, to me, was a tick better in the field. He won a Gold Glove at 39. Had a career batting average 10 points higher than Smith—though their on-base percentages were almost the same. Hope Vizquel makes it.
 

grimshaw

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What was Omar, the 20th best player on the ballot or so?

Though big congrats in defeating Ozzie Smith in fielding percentage and double plays turned, Omar!
Other than that Ozzie Smith is the best defensive shortstop in history - and probably top 3 defender of all time.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/tz_runs_total_tf_career.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/A_ss_career.shtml
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=20,d
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_def_career.shtml
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Dope
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Peter King argues baseball the way I did when I was 12.

“Steve Bedrosian is really good, he won the Cy Young Award last year. So give me two Ken Griffey Jr rookies for him.”