2019-20 Offseason Discussion

StuckOnYouk

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What I really want if we are floundering around at the beginning of July if we are merely competing for a wild card spot and are 9 games behind NY is to do what Cashman did a few years ago and become a realist - trading off assets at the deadline that can grab you some prospects and save you some money.

Betts and J.D. would be huge shots in the arm for teams in the playoff hunt come July. Their salaries wouldn't be much of an issue considering the Sox would have already paid half of it already.

A half a year of Betts, J.D. and Price off the books would be about 42 mil for this year, right? That would allow us to also send some money the other way to enhance the prospect packages and get under the threshold. Of course that would require Price to be healthy and performing. And also keep in mind as JA always says, we can always dive back into the Mookie sweepstakes in the offseason if we want.
Or Mookie and J.D. would be about a 25 mil savings if Price goes down with another injury which should put us under the threshold.

But maybe I don't know how this whole thing works with the cap and I'm wrong.
 

sean1562

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Do we expect to be competing for anything but a WC spot at this point? I dont really see this team as a realistic contender for the AL East crown but we should definitely be in the WC hunt through July.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Do we expect to be competing for anything but a WC spot at this point? I dont really see this team as a realistic contender for the AL East crown but we should definitely be in the WC hunt through July.
Similar things were said in January 2018.

Not suggesting this could be the greatest team ever v2.0, but pointing out the off season isn't over and the games need to be played.
 

bosockboy

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Similar things were said in January 2018.

Not suggesting this could be the greatest team ever v2.0, but pointing out the off season isn't over and the games need to be played.
Right. The 1-9 lineup right now is still phenomenal even if Chavis and Peraza fill two spots. Just need healthy starting pitching.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Alex Wood just signed back with the Dodgers for 1 year 4 million. Yet another bargain-basement starter with upside off the board. I'm starting to somewhat come around on Perez but Wood would have been much better. I feel like someone needs to poke Bloom with a stick and say come on do something.
 

YTF

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Alex Wood just signed back with the Dodgers for 1 year 4 million. Yet another bargain-basement starter with upside off the board. I'm starting to somewhat come around on Perez but Wood would have been much better. I feel like someone needs to poke Bloom with a stick and say come on do something.
With each "affordable" option that comes off the board it's looking as though Bloom's hands are pretty much tied until he's able to move some payroll.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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With each "affordable" option that comes off the board, it's looking as though Bloom's hands are pretty much tied until he's able to move some payroll.
Certainly, it seems like it. Maybe not tendering JBJ and resigning him at a lesser price would have been the best option.
 

amRadio

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Certainly, it seems like it. Maybe not tendering JBJ and resigning him at a lesser price would have been the best option.
Tendering JBJ and then not forcing arbitration seemed at odds with the goal of getting under 208MM at all costs. I wonder if ownership squashed the idea of getting rid of a former LCS MVP, given their recent comments. Even if they had taken JBJ to arbitration they could have put him in a competition for his roster spot and cut him potentially. I keep trying to make sense of their recent comments and lack of salary shedding moves in the context of a looming Mookie extension.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Tendering JBJ and then not forcing arbitration seemed at odds with the goal of getting under 208MM at all costs. I wonder if ownership squashed the idea of getting rid of a former LCS MVP, given their recent comments. Even if they had taken JBJ to arbitration they could have put him in a competition for his roster spot and cut him potentially. I keep trying to make sense of their recent comments and lack of salary shedding moves in the context of a looming Mookie extension.
I would think they are definitely pulling the strings on the big moves this offseason. Seems like Henry has a desire to get more involved.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Alex Wood just signed back with the Dodgers for 1 year 4 million. Yet another bargain-basement starter with upside off the board. I'm starting to somewhat come around on Perez but Wood would have been much better. I feel like someone needs to poke Bloom with a stick and say come on do something.
Why is not signing someone like Alex Wood evidence that Bloom needs to be poked with a stick? Let's bear in mind that not doing what YOU wish he would do does not equate to not doing anything. He's signed a few free agents this winter. He's not done nothing at all. He's just (apparently) not doing what you want him to do.

Did you consider that perhaps Alex Wood was on Bloom's radar, perhaps for better than the 1/$4M offer the Dodgers made (that has incentives that could raise his total cost to $10M), but Wood wasn't interested? He knows the Dodger environment, he was there for a few years and he had success. For equal money, should he choose the known quantity of LA or the opportunity to battle Martin Perez for the #5 spot in Boston?
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Why is not signing someone like Alex Wood evidence that Bloom needs to be poked with a stick? Let's bear in mind that not doing what YOU wish he would do does not equate to not doing anything. He's signed a few free agents this winter. He's not done nothing at all. He's just (apparently) not doing what you want him to do.

Did you consider that perhaps Alex Wood was on Bloom's radar, perhaps for better than the 1/$4M offer the Dodgers made (that has incentives that could raise his total cost to $10M), but Wood wasn't interested? He knows the Dodger environment, he was there for a few years and he had success. For equal money, should he choose the known quantity of LA or the opportunity to battle Martin Perez for the #5 spot in Boston?
If we didn't see a lot of people sign already on incentive-laden deals I would agree. But we've seen Hill (granted he's out till June) sign with the Twins when he's been in Boston multiple times. We have seen Jimmy Nelson and Alex Wood sign with the Dodgers so they can compete against each other for the 5th spot (Also Dustin May) since I'm assuming that they're going to roll out Kershaw Maeda Buehler and Urias as the locked-in 4. It doesn't really make a ton of sense why you would choose the Dodgers over Boston if more money is being offered. Unless you feel like its more of a daunting task to crack the rotation of Sale Price ERod Martin Perez and Eovaldi. Depth is needed here. If any of those 5 get hurt or falter then you're forced to give innings to Ryan Weber or Velasquez. Not exactly inspiring.

Not only that but allowing the Dodgers to sign these guys hurts the Sox leverage in any talks for David Price.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Tendering JBJ and then not forcing arbitration seemed at odds with the goal of getting under 208MM at all costs. I wonder if ownership squashed the idea of getting rid of a former LCS MVP, given their recent comments. Even if they had taken JBJ to arbitration they could have put him in a competition for his roster spot and cut him potentially. I keep trying to make sense of their recent comments and lack of salary shedding moves in the context of a looming Mookie extension.
They don't have any in-house players who could possibly compete credibly for JBJ's roster spot. MLB-ready OF is their biggest organizational deficiency, even more so than SP depth. Non-tendering JBJ would have been just wasting resources. And it wouldn't have been enough to get them under the limit by itself anyway (whereas moving any of the big three contracts might be).
 

Tyrone Biggums

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They don't have any in-house players who could possibly compete credibly for JBJ's roster spot. MLB-ready OF is their biggest organizational deficiency, even more so than SP depth. Non-tendering JBJ would have been just wasting resources. And it wouldn't have been enough to get them under the limit by itself anyway (whereas moving any of the big three contracts might be).
I mean I would think the Sox could sign Billy Hamilton at 20% of what JBJ is making and get at least half the production offensively.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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It doesn't really make a ton of sense why you would choose the Dodgers over Boston if more money is being offered.
It does if money isn't his biggest priority. Maybe given the choice between competing for the fifth spot in Boston versus the fifth spot in LA for similar money ($4-10M range), he decided he'd rather go where he knows the coaching staff (Prior is new as pitching coach, but he was the bullpen coach when Wood was last there).
 

BaseballJones

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Right. The 1-9 lineup right now is still phenomenal even if Chavis and Peraza fill two spots. Just need healthy starting pitching.
RF Betts
LF Benintendi
DH Martinez
SS Bogaerts
3b Devers
1b Chavis
C Vazquez
CF Bradley
2b Peraza

The bottom third of that lineup is weak, but the top 6 would be pretty darned good. That lineup would score some runs. If they actually get good, healthy years from the starting rotation, I think Sale, Price, Eovaldi, ERod, and Perez could work. The bullpen? Eh....still not that good. But that's a competitive team.
 

YTF

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RF Betts
LF Benintendi
DH Martinez
SS Bogaerts
3b Devers
1b Chavis
C Vazquez
CF Bradley
2b Peraza

The bottom third of that lineup is weak, but the top 6 would be pretty darned good. That lineup would score some runs. If they actually get good, healthy years from the starting rotation, I think Sale, Price, Eovaldi, ERod, and Perez could work. The bullpen? Eh....still not that good. But that's a competitive team.
Not pushing the panic button but we should all have concerns/questions over 6-9. Chavis showed promise early then regressed and missed time with a shoulder sprain. Vazquez broke out offensively, can he continue it? Bradley has been pretty much the same player offensively since he's been here and Peraza was flat out terrible at the plate in '19.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Alex Wood just signed back with the Dodgers for 1 year 4 million. Yet another bargain-basement starter with upside off the board. I'm starting to somewhat come around on Perez but Wood would have been much better. I feel like someone needs to poke Bloom with a stick and say come on do something.
Maybe, maybe not. Wood is a lottery ticket, as this FanGraphs article goes through in detail. Wood's peak is obviously considerably better than Perez but Perez has also pitched a ton more innings in the past 3 years than Wood. It seems entirely defensible that the Red Sox signed Perez as someone who could dependably eat innings every fifth game, with potential upside - and Wood doesn't really fit that role.

There is approximately a 0.0% chance that Bloom/the Red Sox looked at Perez and Wood and thought "hmm Wood is much better than Perez but let's sign Perez and not Wood anyway for shits and giggles." Ultimately, their decision may prove wrong to suggest they are just sitting on their hands seems pretty ridiculous to me.

That's not to say that you couldn't have both Perez and Wood, of course, but the offseason isn't over yet and there are still free agents (and presumably cheap trade targets) that fall in the same general tier as Wood.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Not pushing the panic button but we should all have concerns/questions over 6-9. Chavis showed promise early then regressed and missed time with a shoulder sprain. Vazquez broke out offensively, can he continue it? Bradley has been pretty much the same player offensively since he's been here and Peraza was flat out terrible at the plate in '19.
Unless your team is an offensive behemoth guys like Bradley and Vazquez are pretty average bottom-of-the-order type guys - not sure how much better you can really expect to do there. Peraza is a complete offensive black hole, though, I will grant you that - still not entirely clear how they plan to mix and match him, Chavis, and any other options at 2B.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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... still not entirely clear how they plan to mix and match him, Chavis, and any other options at 2B.
I'd bet that they sign a cheap LH guy who can platoon at 1B. Like old friend Mitch Moreland (or Matt Adams, the perpetually injured Greg Bird etc.). Chavis splits time between 2d and first. Peraza takes the rest of the time at 2d and fills in elsewhere. But yeah, those details are TBD, and are subject to revision when Pedey comes back fully healthy :).
 
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I'd bet that they sign a cheap LH guy who can platoon at 1B. Like old friend Mitch Moreland (or Matt Adams, the perpetually injured Greg Bird etc.). Chavis splits time between 2d and first. Peraza takes the rest of the time at 2d and fills in elsewhere. But yeah, those details are TBD, and are subject to revision when Pedey comes back fully healthy :).
Chavis has had a reverse split since 2017, the year he advanced to AA:

2019 v RHP .266 .347 .427 .774
2019 v LHP .226 .261 .481 .742
2018 v RHP .303 .383 .568 .951
2018 v LHP .282 .378 .436 .814
2017 v RHP .287 .353 .563 .916
2017 v LHP .267 .331 .560 .891


Jose Peraza has a normal split for his MLB career, .297/.333/.406/.738 v LHP. With solid defense, seems like a cheap, viable option for the short side of a 2B platoon, with Chavis perhaps moving to 1B versus lefties depending on the other first base options.
 

YTF

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Unless your team is an offensive behemoth guys like Bradley and Vazquez are pretty average bottom-of-the-order type guys - not sure how much better you can really expect to do there. Peraza is a complete offensive black hole, though, I will grant you that - still not entirely clear how they plan to mix and match him, Chavis, and any other options at 2B.
Like I said, I'm not pushing the panic button, but if Vazquez reverts back to his old form it's concerning. As for Bradley, you might consider him and average bottom of the order guy but the production he does give you always seems to come in bunches which prolongs his shitty streaks. As for Peraza I wasn't considering that he'll (hopefully) be a part time guy so hopefully that 6-9 will look slightly better most of the time.
 

johnnywayback

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RF Betts
LF Benintendi
DH Martinez
SS Bogaerts
3b Devers
1b Chavis
C Vazquez
CF Bradley
2b Peraza

The bottom third of that lineup is weak, but the top 6 would be pretty darned good. That lineup would score some runs. If they actually get good, healthy years from the starting rotation, I think Sale, Price, Eovaldi, ERod, and Perez could work. The bullpen? Eh....still not that good. But that's a competitive team.
The 1-5 is really good, Chavis and Vazquez are huge questions marks given their up-and-down 2019s, and Bradley/Peraza are weak spots.

More to the point, though, there's really no depth anywhere. If Bogaerts pulls a hamstring or Devers fouls a ball off his foot, you're starting Jonathan Arauz or Tzu-Wei Lin every day for a couple of weeks. I don't even know what they do if one of the outfielders gets hurt. The same is true for the starters -- even if somehow Price doesn't get traded, there's not much standing between you and a month of Hector Velasquez starts if Price, Eovaldi, or Sale gets hurt. Actually, the one place where they DO have decent depth is the bullpen.

Those top five guys and the potential of peak-Sale/breakout-ERod/vintage-Eovaldi give the team a decently high ceiling. But the floor is really, really low.
 

DanoooME

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I'm not asking for anything. I'm just pointing out how much money $6.6 billion is. If they paid Mookie a half billion today, it would still leave FSG six point one billion dollars. I'm just saying that money.....isn't really an issue. They have plenty of it.

That's not to say they SHOULD pay Mookie that money. There are still financial considerations and baseball considerations.
You do understand that value =/= cash, right?
 

EricFeczko

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The 1-5 is really good, Chavis and Vazquez are huge questions marks given their up-and-down 2019s, and Bradley/Peraza are weak spots.

More to the point, though, there's really no depth anywhere. If Bogaerts pulls a hamstring or Devers fouls a ball off his foot, you're starting Jonathan Arauz or Tzu-Wei Lin every day for a couple of weeks. I don't even know what they do if one of the outfielders gets hurt. The same is true for the starters -- even if somehow Price doesn't get traded, there's not much standing between you and a month of Hector Velasquez starts if Price, Eovaldi, or Sale gets hurt. Actually, the one place where they DO have decent depth is the bullpen.

Those top five guys and the potential of peak-Sale/breakout-ERod/vintage-Eovaldi give the team a decently high ceiling. But the floor is really, really low.
Yup -- though this was true in 2018. Possibly even more so, since most of our value came from a few players:



The top four plus brock holt! were the only players to really hit above average on the red sox in 2018 -- both JD and Betts were Trout-esque offensively. Devers just broke into the league and was mediocre (90 wRC+). 2B was manned by a combination of brock (60 games), nunez (30 games, 78 wRC+), ian kinsler (62 wRC+) and Tzu Wei Lin (100! wRC+). 1B had the jekyll/hyde performance from mitchy two-bags, coupled with 165 or so plate appearances where Steve Pearce just crushed it, but balanced out by 195 plate appearances where hanley ramirez did not. Leon and Vazquez had the opposite of breakout seasons, where both somehow managed to combine for a .202/.252/.293 line -- good for a 44 wRC+.

Comparatively, the starting positions actually look a bit deeper in 2020 than in 2018 -- both 3B and catcher are likely to be much better than in 2018, while 2B and 1B were already at a low floor. If the top 5 all start more than 135 games this year and perform as projected, the offense will be top 5.

On the other hand, the starting pitching is extremely thin, possibly thinner than in 2018.
 

johnnywayback

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Yup -- though this was true in 2018. Possibly even more so, since most of our value came from a few players:



The top four plus brock holt! were the only players to really hit above average on the red sox in 2018 -- both JD and Betts were Trout-esque offensively. Devers just broke into the league and was mediocre (90 wRC+). 2B was manned by a combination of brock (60 games), nunez (30 games, 78 wRC+), ian kinsler (62 wRC+) and Tzu Wei Lin (100! wRC+). 1B had the jekyll/hyde performance from mitchy two-bags, coupled with 165 or so plate appearances where Steve Pearce just crushed it, but balanced out by 195 plate appearances where hanley ramirez did not. Leon and Vazquez had the opposite of breakout seasons, where both somehow managed to combine for a .202/.252/.293 line -- good for a 44 wRC+.

Comparatively, the starting positions actually look a bit deeper in 2020 than in 2018 -- both 3B and catcher are likely to be much better than in 2018, while 2B and 1B were already at a low floor. If the top 5 all start more than 135 games this year and perform as projected, the offense will be top 5.

On the other hand, the starting pitching is extremely thin, possibly thinner than in 2018.
Exactly. But if even one of those five guys gets hurt or regresses, we're screwed, because while 3B and C are better now than they were in 2020, that's not the same as them being deeper. And things can get worse than Pearce and Kinsler as Plans B -- like Sam Travis at 1B and CJ Chatham at 2B worse.

To your broader point, 2018 was an example of things breaking right, and we saw how awesome a team like that can be when things break right. I'm just saying it's one of those tricks you shouldn't count on being able to pull off twice.
 

patoaflac

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Maybe the strategy is start the season above the first LT; if they play like in 2018 (it all depends on Sale, Price and Eovaldi), add someone at mid-season and go for number 5 in this century, re-setting the LT in 2021. If by June they are not playing well, dump Mookie and whomever you can an reset this year.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I mean I would think the Sox could sign Billy Hamilton at 20% of what JBJ is making and get at least half the production offensively.
Hamilton's average offensive production over the past three years has been -16.5 runs. JBJ's has been -3.3 runs. I'm not sure how to parse negative numbers in terms of "half", but you could say that Hamilton is five times as bad a hitter. It's basically the difference between utility infielder offense and backup catcher offense. I'll grant you that if the Sox were serious about getting under the tax limit they might take that tradeoff, but not to the point of dumping JBJ without any return.

Peraza is a complete offensive black hole, though, I will grant you that...
He has had two years that fit that description, and two years as a basically league average hitter. Do we have any particular reason to assume that his 2020 will fall into the first category?
 

nvalvo

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Maybe the strategy is start the season above the first LT; if they play like in 2018 (it all depends on Sale, Price and Eovaldi), add someone at mid-season and go for number 5 in this century, re-setting the LT in 2021. If by June they are not playing well, dump Mookie and whomever you can an reset this year.
This is what I would do.

Those three guys pitching to their (healthy) career norms would likely be worth literally twice what they were worth in 2019, and they would displace some of the sub-replacement innings we got from people like Velazquez and Cashner. That puts in the low 90s, win-wise, and thus in the thick of the WC race.

If we contend, amazing. Go for it. If we don't, then the window is closed. Restock the farm and clear payroll by trading Betts, Bradley, Price, Workman, Barnes, and anything else desirable that isn't nailed down, promote the kids, and direct our attention to contending again in 2022-23.
 

67YAZ

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A deep cut possible bullpen flyer - White Sox DFA's Dylan Covey to sign Steve Cishek. He's been miserable as an MLB starter, but been solid when sent down to AAA. He has real live arm, fastball sitting at 94/95. But the White Sox have overhauled his pitch selection each of the past 2 season...and they're not a team known to be analytics savvy or a great developer of pitchers. He has an minor league option left. I think a smart club could rebuild Covey as a power bullpen arm.
 

EricFeczko

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Exactly. But if even one of those five guys gets hurt or regresses, we're screwed, because while 3B and C are better now than they were in 2020, that's not the same as them being deeper. And things can get worse than Pearce and Kinsler as Plans B -- like Sam Travis at 1B and CJ Chatham at 2B worse.

To your broader point, 2018 was an example of things breaking right, and we saw how awesome a team like that can be when things break right. I'm just saying it's one of those tricks you shouldn't count on being able to pull off twice.
Oh absolutely -- I'm merely quibbling with the relative level depth between 2018 and 2020 -- both teams were pretty thin at position players and starters.

That being said, Kinsler and Pearce were mid-season pickups enabled by a deeper farm system in 2018. The lack of farm system depth makes 2020 even harder for in-season adjustments.
 

Plympton91

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You can squint and see a good pitcher in Springs.

He had 3 outings last year where his combined line was 11 ER in 1 IP.

Outside of those 3 outings, he was quite good in both 2018 and 2019.

Big K/9 and acceptable BB/9 numbers in the minors too.

They clearly just do not trust Poyner, who has basically done all he can in AAA, and was very good in the majors in 2018. I would think an NL team would give him a chance. He’s better than a lot of what the Nats were throwing out there most of last season
 
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OurF'ingCity

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Pretty good job of getting what could at least theoretically be something of value for Travis, who really had no place on the team given the presence of Chavis and the fact that Dalbec could basically take Travis' role as early as this season.
 

BaseballJones

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Springs gave up runs in 13 of his 25 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 18 of his 25 outings. Only 2 of his 25 outings were "clean" (i.e., no baserunners).

Poyner gave up runs in 4 of his 13 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 2 of his 13 outings. 8 of his 13 outings were "clean".

Can someone else explain to me how the Red Sox upgraded here?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Springs gave up runs in 13 of his 25 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 18 of his 25 outings. Only 2 of his 25 outings were "clean" (i.e., no baserunners).

Poyner gave up runs in 4 of his 13 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 2 of his 13 outings. 8 of his 13 outings were "clean".

Can someone else explain to me how the Red Sox upgraded here?
Much better strikeout numbers in the minors and throws maybe 2-3 mph faster than Poyner. I'm not sure it's much of an upgrade but he put up some lofty k numbers after being moved to the pen.
 

Plympton91

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Springs gave up runs in 13 of his 25 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 18 of his 25 outings. Only 2 of his 25 outings were "clean" (i.e., no baserunners).

Poyner gave up runs in 4 of his 13 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 2 of his 13 outings. 8 of his 13 outings were "clean".

Can someone else explain to me how the Red Sox upgraded here?
Much better strikeout numbers in the minors and throws maybe 2-3 mph faster than Poyner. I'm not sure it's much of an upgrade but he put up some lofty k numbers after being moved to the pen.
One of the articles I saw also said Springs suffered from tendinitis in his arm last year, which may have impacted him. His 2018 was about equal to Poyner in 50% more innings.
 

EricFeczko

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Eovaldi too.
Good point -- totally forgot about him --a shame you can't like posts, since I feel uncomfortable posting a simple affirmation.

Springs gave up runs in 13 of his 25 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 18 of his 25 outings. Only 2 of his 25 outings were "clean" (i.e., no baserunners).

Poyner gave up runs in 4 of his 13 outings last year. Gave up 2 or more baserunners in 2 of his 13 outings. 8 of his 13 outings were "clean".

Can someone else explain to me how the Red Sox upgraded here?
I think you are comparing the wrong players; Poyner can still be called up to the majors, so we didn't lose him. Travis is a 1B/passable corner outfielder with no bat -- in 111 games with the red sox (278 PA) he's garnered -1.1 WAR. There is little evidence to suggest that Travis will develop into a better bat, since he's been average at AAA for the past three seasons. Worse, he has no options if a team wants to send him down.

Unlike Travis, Springs has had flashes of dominance throughout his pro-ball career -- including strong performances at AAA in the past few seasons. Furthermore, if he catches fire this season, but the red sox underperform, he becomes high-demand trade bait that can help restock the farm. He also can be optioned to the minors if poyner catches fire and/or Springs flounders.

Trading Sam Travis for Springs is certainly an upgrade, and seems like a steal.

EDIT: I guess the rangers could use Sam Travis in 1B L/R platoon -- but most teams have far better production at 1B (median is around 106 wRC+ last year).
 
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BaseballJones

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One of the articles I saw also said Springs suffered from tendinitis in his arm last year, which may have impacted him. His 2018 was about equal to Poyner in 50% more innings.
Well in 2018 here were their numbers:

Poyner: 22.1 ip, 3.22 era, 1.12 whip, 9.7 k/9
Springs: 32.0 ip, 3.38 era, 1.44 whip, 8.7 k/9

So again...how is Springs an upgrade over Poyner?

BTW, I'm fine with the trade, as Poyner probably will clear waivers and be sent to the minors, so in effect the Sox will likely get Springs for basically nothing. I am just responding to @bosockboy 's claim that the Sox have upgraded from Poyner to Springs. I just don't see the upgrade, either in 2018 or 2019.
 

JM3

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Springs has actually been awful against lefties the last 2 years & solid against righties. Poyner has been great against lefties & bad against righties.

Maybe they think it will be easier to teach Springs to face lefties than it will be to teach Poyner to face righties, what with the 3 batter rule & all.

Plus, yeah, Travis meh.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
7,543
Well in 2018 here were their numbers:

Poyner: 22.1 ip, 3.22 era, 1.12 whip, 9.7 k/9
Springs: 32.0 ip, 3.38 era, 1.44 whip, 8.7 k/9

So again...how is Springs an upgrade over Poyner?

BTW, I'm fine with the trade, as Poyner probably will clear waivers and be sent to the minors, so in effect the Sox will likely get Springs for basically nothing. I am just responding to @bosockboy 's claim that the Sox have upgraded from Poyner to Springs. I just don't see the upgrade, either in 2018 or 2019.
They got a lefty with options. We have to trust that he has upside or they wouldn't have made the trade. Either way, he'll probably play more for the Sox next year than Travis would have, bar some extreme injury situations. That he's basically not that far from the other lefty we're probably going to be able to keep as well doesn't mean much. They're at the personal preference level between them.
 

high cheese

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2001
125
Upgrade from Poyner? The thrill of turning another teams trash into our treasure remains a mystery to me. Role players and retreads help but you’ve got to have bona fide players to win.

Especially in Boston.

Moneyball works for the Rays and the A’s to compete but never going to work for the Red Sox to win rings.
 
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DanoooME

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Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2008
16,563
Richmond, VA
Even if Springs is a push or even slightly worse than Poyner, it's still a gain for the Sox because Springs has 3 options and Poyner only has 1. It wouldn't surprise me if someone took a flyer on Poyner, but it's more likely he stays in the organization. Heck, if multiple teams are interested, they might even get something for Poyner, but I give that very, very low odds.