2019 Game Ball Thread: Wk. 12 vs Cowboys

bakahump

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Why did the Patriots not use the running backs in a shorter passing game? Conditions? 3 catches for 8 net yards. With rookie receivers it seemed like this was an option but pretty much nothing. The running back in the flat seems to be a regular feature of the offense of pretty much every NFL team but the Patriots haven’t really looked for like they did earlier in the year. Which is weird since they have a guy that is so very good at it.
Heres my conspiracy theory and I hope its right (but its not because in a close game like that you use what you can to win).
They are saving Big Game James for the Playoffs. Less hits. Less film. Playoffs well in hand so why show your hand. Actually been using him more as a runner and putting that on film and on DC minds.

(That and the RBs have had to block alot lately...)
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Lots of good stuff above, so I won't quote it all but yeah White is an excellent blocker and in fact seems to take the brunt of big guys rushing full speed ahead at least a couple of times every game. But one of the things that makes him so great is that he can actually do that job and also stay in the play. So many great plays he's made where he rubs off his block or feigns being in a blocking role and then finds himself in space. I guess they've been playing teams with really good defensive lines lately and there just hasn't been the time to run those plays.

Another factor is that I think Bill means what he says. In the post-game he emphasized taking care of the ball. I think for so long as they had the lead this was priority number 1 in this game given the defense and special teams. If you look at all of Brady's throws pretty much, they were made away from traffic. Other than the one fairly careless chuck to save a short sack I think that pretty much everything was designed to be put where only a Patriot could get it and if he didn't, so be it. I can really think of only a couple of examples otherwise. One was a beautiful throw to Meyers that if it's a touch behind him can be a pick six. And one was a poorly conceived screen. There were really not too many throws over the middle or in the backfield or anywhere that could be too dangerous, except a few slants where Brady kept the nose of the ball down or in the desperation of a third and 20 (and even there Brady put it in a place that made it a very difficult but safe catch). There were a few "attempts" to Burkhead that were just throwaways. I think it was all about safety. And many of those White passes that we're used to are often in traffic or pose some danger if there's a tip.

As mentioned, White is still getting lots of usage at times. Buffalo, Washington, NYG, and even Philly (even though they had it completely sniffed out all game, yet they kept going for it). I thought this was a game for it given the personnel on the field but I think the conditions had an awful lot to do with what they did. It was rough on DDB Jr. who had White and came 1.8 points from winning his fantasy week.
 
Apr 24, 2019
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I would probably phrase it as "getting these guys more practice and game reps" rather than "forcing Brady to work with these guys." You seem to be implying that it's Brady's fault they're not more of a factor on offense.
I won’t speak for the poster, but in my view his is the cannier way to look at it. Over the latter half of his career, up to and including this year, Brady has been stubborn about going to players who are less experienced (which, yes, means they’re often less down-to-the-inch precise) in the offense.

The situation the Patriots find themselves in right now does force Brady to lighten up on the reins or open up the blinders (insert own horse metaphor here) and work with these guys. He has little choice but to look at Harry and Meyers even if they’re not always quite where they’re supposed to be. And I agree that as the rooks continue to earn reps, or see them by default, the better off the O will be as Brady has more weapons in his circle of trust come playoff time.

Edit typos
 

tims4wins

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I won’t speak for the poster, but in my view his is the cannier way to look at it. Over the latter half of his career, up to and including this year, Brady has been stubborn about going to players who are less experienced (which, yes, means they’re often less down-to-the-inch precise) in the offense.

The situation the Patriots find themselves in right now does force Brady to lighten up on the reins or open up the blinders (insert own horse metaphor here) and work with these guys. He has little choice but to look at Harry and Meyers even if they’re not always quite where they’re supposed to be. And I agree that as the rooks continue to earn reps, or see them by default, the better off the O will be as Brady has more weapons in his circle of trust come playoff time.

Edit typos
This is lazy and BS. Cite examples. Did Brady not trust Malcolm Mitchell in 2016?
 

lexrageorge

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I won’t speak for the poster, but in my view his is the cannier way to look at it. Over the latter half of his career, up to and including this year, Brady has been stubborn about going to players who are less experienced (which, yes, means they’re often less down-to-the-inch precise) in the offense.

The situation the Patriots find themselves in right now does force Brady to lighten up on the reins or open up the blinders (insert own horse metaphor here) and work with these guys. He has little choice but to look at Harry and Meyers even if they’re not always quite where they’re supposed to be. And I agree that as the rooks continue to earn reps, or see them by default, the better off the O will be as Brady has more weapons in his circle of trust come playoff time.

Edit typos
The "Brady doesn't throw to rookies" is a meme that needs to die a slow and excruciating death. Brady had no problems throwing to Malcolm Mitchell, Gronk, Aaron Hernandez, and even Aaron Dobson and Kembrell Thompkins when they were rookies. The latter two did nothing after leaving New England, which has been the case of most young players that don't work out here.

Myers was a UDFA; great for him for making the team, but he's not going to be confused with an impact player this season. Harry missed a lot of time and barely played in the pre-season.

I'm sure the 93.7/98.5 crowd will point to a play where a Myers or a Harry or a Gunner (obviously not this week) were open and Brady didn't look their way. What they always fail to look at is what happened in the 10 plays before that. Yes, it's still Brady's responsibility to find the open receiver. But even Brady is going to make decisions based on who he thinks is most likely to be in the right place and will catch the ball in a tight window.

There are benefits to having Myers and Harry play now, and getting on the same page with Brady is one of them. Killing a tired mediot-driven meme is another.
 

BigJimEd

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I won’t speak for the poster, but in my view his is the cannier way to look at it. Over the latter half of his career, up to and including this year, Brady has been stubborn about going to players who are less experienced (which, yes, means they’re often less down-to-the-inch precise) in the offense.

The situation the Patriots find themselves in right now does force Brady to lighten up on the reins or open up the blinders (insert own horse metaphor here) and work with these guys. He has little choice but to look at Harry and Meyers even if they’re not always quite where they’re supposed to be. And I agree that as the rooks continue to earn reps, or see them by default, the better off the O will be as Brady has more weapons in his circle of trust come playoff time.

Edit typos
You hear this quite often these days but is it valid? Are there stats that back it up?

I can't find it now but saw something a couple weeks ago that showed targets and targets per snap. Teams varied quite a bit on how much they targeted WR 3-5 but Myers was about what you'd expect for his spot on depth chart.

Edit: I guess I need to refresh. Didn't mean to pile on.
 
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BusRaker

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James White is a TREMENDOUS blocker in the passing game, protecting Brady. I think he may be the best at that of all the backs in the Brady/Belichick era.
Kevin Faulk?
And he had the "New England Patriots and Tom Brady select" with the 12 jersey in the draft, speaking of protecting Brady
 

Saints Rest

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Kevin Faulk?
And he had the "New England Patriots and Tom Brady select" with the 12 jersey in the draft, speaking of protecting Brady
Faulk is the guy most people refer to as the best at this, but I think White surpasses even him.

Amazing to consider how long it's been since #33 was back there on 3rd downs.

Seems like Brady has always had -- or always created -- excellent 3rd down backs (as well as slot receivers). I think those have been the only real constants in the Weis/McD/BOB/McD era. Meggett, Faulk, Woodhead, Lewis, Vereen, White. Brown, Welker, Edelman.
 

NortheasternPJ

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The "Brady doesn't throw to rookies" is a meme that needs to die a slow and excruciating death. Brady had no problems throwing to Malcolm Mitchell, Gronk, Aaron Hernandez, and even Aaron Dobson and Kembrell Thompkins when they were rookies. The latter two did nothing after leaving New England, which has been the case of most young players that don't work out here.

Myers was a UDFA; great for him for making the team, but he's not going to be confused with an impact player this season. Harry missed a lot of time and barely played in the pre-season.

I'm sure the 93.7/98.5 crowd will point to a play where a Myers or a Harry or a Gunner (obviously not this week) were open and Brady didn't look their way. What they always fail to look at is what happened in the 10 plays before that. Yes, it's still Brady's responsibility to find the open receiver. But even Brady is going to make decisions based on who he thinks is most likely to be in the right place and will catch the ball in a tight window.

There are benefits to having Myers and Harry play now, and getting on the same page with Brady is one of them. Killing a tired mediot-driven meme is another.
So as the original poster you are closer to what I was saying. I didn’t realize this would open a huge discussion. Brady, especially this year, doesn’t have time to go through 4 progressions when he’s going to throw the ball. I also believe he doesn’t trust the younger guys at all unless he needs to, which is normal. My point originally was that this would force him to use the guys who were previously 4th and 5th reads and maybe look to them more often when the primary was covered instead of forcing it to Edelman or Gordon (which he seemed to do a lot last year)

If Harry or Meyers can perform they may be the 3rd read and be open instead of the 4th or 5th.
 

Super Nomario

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I won’t speak for the poster, but in my view his is the cannier way to look at it. Over the latter half of his career, up to and including this year, Brady has been stubborn about going to players who are less experienced (which, yes, means they’re often less down-to-the-inch precise) in the offense.

The situation the Patriots find themselves in right now does force Brady to lighten up on the reins or open up the blinders (insert own horse metaphor here) and work with these guys. He has little choice but to look at Harry and Meyers even if they’re not always quite where they’re supposed to be. And I agree that as the rooks continue to earn reps, or see them by default, the better off the O will be as Brady has more weapons in his circle of trust come playoff time.
Others have addressed the main point here, so I'm not going to pile on, but
a) I don't understand the pooh-poohing of "less down-to-the-inch precise" or "not always quite where they're supposed to be." Aren't getting these the sorts of details right what the Patriots dynasty is built on? Whether it's Brady or Belichick or someone else or everybody insisting that everyone (including rookies) be exact, it's not blue M&Ms in the dressing room diva nonsense. Passing games have been build on precision timing going back to Sid Gillman in the 1960's. Getting these details right matters, and if Brady (/ Belichick / McDaniels / Joe Judge / etc.) has a high standard, that's a good thing.
b) It's not like rookies are getting a ton of run at other positions, either. Yeah, you get the occasional Thuney or Hightower or Devin McCourty who gets plugged in as a starter day one, but Trey Flowers had a redshirt year, Jamie Collins basically didn't play as a rookie until the playoffs, JoeJuan Williams and Damien Harris aren't playing this year, Chung started one game as a rookie, Meriweather didn't start any, etc. I think it's way more likely that Belichick is the one driving the "rookies barely play" bandwagon than Brady. It is consistent with everything we know about how Belichick minimizes risk, values reliability, values guys who know what they're doing, the whole "do your job" mentality, etc., to prefer a steady vet over a flashy youngster. Given Brady, statistically, does throw to youngsters when they're on the field, I'm not sure why we'd ascribe their lack of playing time to Brady (who is not a coach) rather than Belichick and the rest of the coaching staff.
 

mostman

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Deathofthebambino

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I'd like to talk about James White and Sony Michel for a second.

I was at the game yesterday, and with respect to James White, Ted Karras is killing this team in the screen game/RB passing game. He simply is not athletic enough to get outside in space and block anyone. I think BB and Josh are going to look to ways to get another blocker out there come playoff time, and re-establish the screen game, but until then, I'm not sure how much James White we'll be seeing, especially when he's in there to protect Brady's backside half the time.

As for Sony, I thought he ran great yesterday. I know people make a lot of noise about how little he makes guys miss, but I think there's a reason for that. When Sony feels any kind of contact coming or there is a defender anywhere in the vicinity, he covers up and puts two hands on the ball, which obviously slows him down and makes it harder to make a move. He's fumbled twice in his career on 399 touches (which is outstanding) and we know how important BB thinks of ball security. In a game like yesterday, turnovers matter. A LOT. The fact that the Pats did not put the ball on the ground once was simply amazing.

FTR, James White has zero fumbles in 543 career touches over 5 years. They may not be the best backs in the world, but as far as BB is concerned, not getting that extra yard is way more important than losing the football while trying to fight for it.
 

E5 Yaz

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I was at the game yesterday, and with respect to James White, Ted Karras is killing this team in the screen game/RB passing game. He simply is not athletic enough to get outside in space and block anyone. I think BB and Josh are going to look to ways to get another blocker out there come playoff time, and re-establish the screen game, but until then, I'm not sure how much James White we'll be seeing, especially when he's in there to protect Brady's backside half the time.
This makes a lot of sense. I couldn't imagine they'd be lessening his role on purpose
 

chilidawg

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I'd like to talk about James White and Sony Michel for a second.

I was at the game yesterday, and with respect to James White, Ted Karras is killing this team in the screen game/RB passing game. He simply is not athletic enough to get outside in space and block anyone. I think BB and Josh are going to look to ways to get another blocker out there come playoff time, and re-establish the screen game, but until then, I'm not sure how much James White we'll be seeing, especially when he's in there to protect Brady's backside half the time.

As for Sony, I thought he ran great yesterday. I know people make a lot of noise about how little he makes guys miss, but I think there's a reason for that. When Sony feels any kind of contact coming or there is a defender anywhere in the vicinity, he covers up and puts two hands on the ball, which obviously slows him down and makes it harder to make a move. He's fumbled twice in his career on 399 touches (which is outstanding) and we know how important BB thinks of ball security. In a game like yesterday, turnovers matter. A LOT. The fact that the Pats did not put the ball on the ground once was simply amazing.

FTR, James White has zero fumbles in 543 career touches over 5 years. They may not be the best backs in the world, but as far as BB is concerned, not getting that extra yard is way more important than losing the football while trying to fight for it.
Good point on the not fumbling emphasis. I remember one play in particular where Sony was in the secondary and two guys converged on him. He put his head down and covered up, and ended up going down even though neither guy got a good hit on him. That seemed like one instance where the more cautious approach might have cost a big run.
 

DJnVa

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On BBs conference call today he made it a point to say that Sony has played well year.
I bet this is equal parts not dumping on guy that just had good game and an acknowledgment that the OL has caused a lot of issues. If they thought the issue was Sony they'd have given others more carries, given Harris a shot, etc.
 

DJnVa

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This is wild. Watch this video for Bill’s post game talk (and Slater!). Which is good. But also watch Cannon walk in. He won’t hug Kraft just gives him the old “Ima fist bump you because you don’t want what I got” and then proceeds to cough as he takes off his helmet. He looks gassed. Incredible that he played in those conditions.

https://www.patriots.com/video/locker-room-celebration-following-the-win-over-the-cowboys
I love these.

Also, Brady seemed like he was in a much better mood this week.
 

am_dial

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Others have addressed the main point here, so I'm not going to pile on, but
a) I don't understand the pooh-poohing of "less down-to-the-inch precise" or "not always quite where they're supposed to be." Aren't getting these the sorts of details right what the Patriots dynasty is built on? Whether it's Brady or Belichick or someone else or everybody insisting that everyone (including rookies) be exact, it's not blue M&Ms in the dressing room diva nonsense. Passing games have been build on precision timing going back to Sid Gillman in the 1960's. Getting these details right matters, and if Brady (/ Belichick / McDaniels / Joe Judge / etc.) has a high standard, that's a good thing.
I’d love to see the “Brady’s circle of trust” stuff go away for good myself. But a small correction re: the M&Ms myth: the band was Van Halen, and the reason for this clause in their rider was the same sort of attention to detail that you rightly ascribe to the Patriots.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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This is wild. Watch this video for Bill’s post game talk (and Slater!). Which is good. But also watch Cannon walk in. He won’t hug Kraft just gives him the old “Ima fist bump you because you don’t want what I got” and then proceeds to cough as he takes off his helmet. He looks gassed. Incredible that he played in those conditions.

https://www.patriots.com/video/locker-room-celebration-following-the-win-over-the-cowboys
Every time I see one of these clips I think of guys like Reggie Wayne who didn’t fit in with the Pats because “they work too hard.” Those guys in the locker room sure seem miserable with all that winning.
 

kenneycb

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Every time I see one of these clips I think of guys like Reggie Wayne who didn’t fit in with the Pats because “they work too hard.” Those guys in the locker room sure seem miserable with all that winning.
Yet Reggie Wayne somehow had a lot of success, team and personal, for someone who apparently didn’t like to work very hard. It’s almost like there are multiple ways to do things.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Yet Reggie Wayne somehow had a lot of success, team and personal, for someone who apparently didn’t like to work very hard. It’s almost like there are multiple ways to do things.
I just don't think he liked to be outside in the cold.
 

SumnerH

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I’d love to see the “Brady’s circle of trust” stuff go away for good myself. But a small correction re: the M&Ms myth: the band was Van Halen, and the reason for this clause in their rider was the same sort of attention to detail that you rightly ascribe to the Patriots.
That's better phrased as “the story that David Lee Roth told decades after the fact in his autobiography attempted to explain that clause in their rider as being out of an attention to detail”. Personally, I don't buy it at all; he'd taken abuse over the M&M clause for nearly 2 decades before suddenly coming up with that story, and there's no corroborating evidence. And the rest of the chapter is full of attempts at explaining why destroying his green room in a fit of rage was really a pre-planned action taken for safety reasons and such.

It certainly seems like a manufactured post-facto apologia-cum-hagiography.
 

am_dial

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Huh — I’m no Van Halen fan, so had no idea that story only came out two decades after the fact; it feels like I’ve been hearing it forever.

I can buy VH being attentive to detail, especially on technical matters, but I can also buy VH acting like entitled dicks (in tour riders and/or otherwise) for no reason quite easily, too... I will say life’s too short (my life, anyway) to read a David Lee Roth autobiography, so man, if you made it through that, or even reviews of that, to correct my correction, extra kudos!
 

mulluysavage

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Huh — I’m no Van Halen fan, so had no idea that story only came out two decades after the fact; it feels like I’ve been hearing it forever.

I can buy VH being attentive to detail, especially on technical matters, but I can also buy VH acting like entitled dicks (in tour riders and/or otherwise) for no reason quite easily, too... I will say life’s too short (my life, anyway) to read a David Lee Roth autobiography, so man, if you made it through that, or even reviews of that, to correct my correction, extra kudos!
New BBtL thread: "Van Halen: Attentive to Detail or Entitled Dicks?"