2019 NFL: News & Transactions

Time to Mo Vaughn · Jan 23, 2020

StuckOnYouk said:
Not sure why people are saying Plunkett was just as good as Eli....

Plunkett career stats
Completion% 52.5
Pass yards/Attempt: 7.0
TD's - 164 (4.4 per attempt)
INT's - 198 (5.3 per attempt)
QB rating - 67.5

Eli Manning career stats
Completion% 60.3
Pass yards/Attempt: 7.0
TD's - 366 (4.5 per attempt)
INT's - 244 (3.0 per attempt)
QB rating - 84.1

This is about as poor a comparison as you could make. As multiple folks have mentioned, passing in the NFL has completely changed since the 1970s and 80s.

Looking at some stats to compare them with their peers.

Years top 10 Passing Yards: Plunkett 5 (highest 2nd), Eli 7 (highest 4th)
Years top 10 TDs: Plunkett 3 (highest 2nd), Eli 10 (highest 4th)
Years top 10 QB Rating: Plunkett 1(9th), Eli 1(7th)
Years top 10 Interceptions: Plunkett 7(highest 1st - once), Eli 11 (highest 1st - three times)
Years top 10 Completion %: Plunkett 1 (6th), Eli 1 (9th)
Years top 10 Fumbles: Plunkett 0, Eli 4 (highest 2nd)
Years top 10 Sack %: Plunkett 1(9th), Eli 7 (highest 1st)

BigSoxFan · Jan 23, 2020

StuckOnYouk said:
He threw the ball right to the one guy in the middle of the field. It was a little high - granted he was flushed out of the pocket and threw it 40 yards down the field, so not sure anyone can expect a perfectly thrown pass right at the numbers.

It’s a pass that is picked more often than not. It was great improvisation but there was definitely a luck component. The Manningham pass was pure perfection. He dropped that throw into a bucket. Absolutely perfect throw.

Honestly, as a Pats fan, whenever I watch the Tyree play I don’t even care about the helmet part. I am always amazed at how poorly the secondary covered it. Harrison, who made a career blowing up WRs, failed in the worst possible time while everyone else just kind of stared at the ball.

BigSoxFan · Jan 23, 2020

tims4wins said:
Luck that Asante dropped the pass though. And luck that Welker dropped the pass. If the Pats make two catches easier than the Tyree and Manningham plays, Eli has zero rings. Forget Tyree and Manningham making those plays. If the PATS make plays in their control then Eli has zero rings. That's the luck component moreso than anything else.

I generally hate the luck argument because everyone benefits to some extent but Kyle Williams dropped a punt at like the 20-25 yard line in OT in the 2011 NFCCG that set up the game winning FG without any effort by Eli. That was probably the luckiest break of his career as that game had really turned into a rock fight.

Eli basically had an extended version of Joe Flacco’s career.

InstaFace · Jan 23, 2020

Philip Jeff Frye said:
You guys are like little windup toys. All it takes is somebody typing the words "Eli Manning" and we get 20+ posts making the same old comments about him not really being any good, there's a dozen or more contemporary QBs who were better, he's the new Jim Plunkett, and, of course, PTSD-laden references to two Super Bowls the Patriots should have won.

I agree that he shouldn't really be a Hall of Famer, but come on already.

Hey I object to this... the Giants were the better team in 2011.

RedOctober3829 · Jan 23, 2020

InstaFace said:
Hey I object to this... the Giants were the better team in 2011.

Bernard Pollard man, Bernard Pollard. Every time I see a highlight of Gronk from that game I cringe to think what might have been in that game. The Giants(nor anyone in the league) were remotely close to stopping him that year.

E5 Yaz · Jan 23, 2020

BigSoxFan said:
I am always amazed at how poorly the secondary covered it. Harrison, who made a career blowing up WRs, failed in the worst possible time while everyone else just kind of stared at the ball.

Rodney just basically tries to pull away Tyree's arm while they're in the air. Other than the Asante drop and the Jarvis Green uncalled grasp and the three uncalled holding penalties, that was the most frustrating moment of those final minutes

BigSoxFan · Jan 23, 2020

RedOctober3829 said:
Bernard Pollard man, Bernard Pollard. Every time I see a highlight of Gronk from that game I cringe to think what might have been in that game. The Giants(nor anyone in the league) were remotely close to stopping him that year.

Yup. He jumped like Kendrick Perkins on that Blackburn INT.

Hoya81 · Jan 23, 2020

bosockboy said:
They are far looser than MLB. Don’t see how they are considered restrictive?

Having only up to 4-6 players elected a year seems too small for a sport with so much positional specialization, same goes for the coach/contributor class. I don't think you get something like the special class of 15 this year if the process is working right.

Lose Remerswaal · Jan 23, 2020

We can just pray that one writer chooses not to make Eli a unanimous inductee.

Saints Rest · Jan 23, 2020

Super Nomario said:
Eli will definitely have support, but it's hard to say he's a shoo-in given how crazy difficult it is to get into the HOF. Only five each year. Are people really going to vote for him over any number of deserving options at other positions? He also needs 80% yes votes once he gets to the final council; I can imagine a majority wanting him in but more than 20% wanting him out.

The five-year wait probably hurts him, too. He's 7th in passing yards and TDs now but Roethlisberger, Ryan, and Rodgers are going to pass him soon.

To be fair, the second SB was a really "short" game with very few offensive possessions by both teams. The Giants put up 13 points on only four second-half possessions. They only had 9 drives and one was a kneel-down at the end of the first half, but they still possessed the ball for more than 37 minutes. Eli ripped up the Patriots D that game, putting the NE O in garbage field position all game (one of which led to the safety), holding the ball, and scoring almost every drive in the second half.

It's also quite possible that there will be a few more QB's with more than one SB win by then.

Active QB's with one SB win to their name:

Nick Foles
Russell Wilson
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Joe Flacco

At least 3 of them (Wilson, Rodgers, Brees) have a decent shot to win another. Not to mention the chances that some current QB, like Mahomes, Jimmy G or Lamar, could grab two in the next 5 years. And imagine what the "he won 2 Super Bowls" cry sounds like if by some miracle, that list includes not just Eli and Plunkett, but also Foles or Flacco.

Super Nomario · Jan 23, 2020

InstaFace said:
Hey I object to this... the Giants were the better team in 2011.

They were 9-7 and outscored during the regular season. They are probably the worst Super Bowl winner ever. Which, I mean, hey, not that bad a designation. But still.

Montana Fan · Jan 23, 2020

I also don't see Eli as a HoF'er and am a Giants fan. However, if he had retired after the 2011 or 2012 season, I bet he would have gotten in and there would have been little argument.

Mugsy's Jock · Jan 23, 2020

StuckOnYouk said:
Not sure why people are saying Plunkett was just as good as Eli....

Also, to give the devil his due, Eli was really good in those Super Bowls. The Manningham pass was perfect. Plunkett was nothing special in his Super Bowls at all.

But hey, screw Eli. Just because he was better than Plunkett doesn't mean he was better than mediocre.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Jan 23, 2020

Mugsy's Jock said:
Also, to give the devil his due, Eli was really good in those Super Bowls. Plunkett was nothing special in his Super Bowls at all.

But hey, screw Eli. Just because he was better than Plunkett doesn't mean he was better than mediocre.

In his first SB Plunkett went 13-21 for 261 yards and 3 TDs with 0 INTs. QB rating of 145. In 1980, that was a masterpiece of a performance. 261 yards was A LOT back then.

Mugsy's Jock · Jan 23, 2020

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
In his first SB Plunkett went 13-21 for 261 yards and 3 TDs with 0 INTs. QB rating of 145. In 1980, that was a masterpiece of a performance. 261 yards was A LOT back then.

Fair enough, and on looking it over his second Super Bowl was probably a shade better than "nothing special" (16 for 25 for 175 or thereabouts, with a TD). But Eli's Super Bowls and his Super Bowl runs were really good.

That said, please never refer to me as "Eli apologist Mugsy's Jock". And I thought Jim Plunkett was pretty cool.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 23, 2020

NYCSox said:
Nah that shit was busted once Namath got in.

A lot of Namath was his stardom in the AFL, which may not have made it without him.

BigSoxFan · Jan 23, 2020

Mugsy's Jock said:
Also, to give the devil his due, Eli was really good in those Super Bowls. The Manningham pass was perfect. Plunkett was nothing special in his Super Bowls at all.

But hey, screw Eli. Just because he was better than Plunkett doesn't mean he was better than mediocre.

He was very average in SB42. 19-34 255 2/1. 87.3 rating. Was much better in SB46. Don’t remember many bad throws in that one. His entire 2011 playoff run was very good. He needed that 2nd run to get real HOF consideration.

joe dokes · Jan 23, 2020

Papelbon's Poutine said:
A lot of Namath was his stardom in the AFL, which may not have made it without him.

I was a Namath fan as a kid, but I understand his borderline candidacy. For a bit of historical context, he threw for 4000 yards in 1967, which was not done again til 1979 by Fouts, and by only a handful of other QBs in the 10 years after that. (And even though it was the AFL, it was roughly 600 yards more than anyone ever had in the AFL in one season).

Oil Can Dan · Jan 23, 2020

I don't know if Eli is deserving of the HoF or not, but there is something to be said for longevity.

Which eligible non-HoF QBs are out there that might be more deserving?

Soxy · Jan 23, 2020

joe dokes said:
I was a Namath fan as a kid, but I understand his borderline candidacy. For a bit of historical context, he threw for 4000 yards in 1967, which was not done again til 1979 by Fouts, and by only a handful of other QBs in the 10 years after that. (And even though it was the AFL, it was roughly 600 yards more than anyone ever had in the AFL in one season).

Might be worth its own thread, but Namath has gone from being overrated to being underrated.

His completion percentages weren't good and he threw too many picks. But he was a great downfield passer who made a lot of big plays and was great at avoiding sacks, which mitigated a lot of those incompletions and INTs. A sack is worse than an incompletion, and when Namath did complete a pass, it typically went for more yards than any other QB at the time.

Chase Stuart had a good write-up on Namath a few years back. Using ANY/A, which includes a penalty for INTs, Namath rates out as the 3rd best QB from 1965-1974, behind only Tarkenton and Jurgensen:

http://www.footballperspective.com/joe-namath-has-become-footballs-most-misunderstood-quarterback/

Papelbon's Poutine · Jan 23, 2020

joe dokes said:
I was a Namath fan as a kid, but I understand his borderline candidacy. For a bit of historical context, he threw for 4000 yards in 1967, which was not done again til 1979 by Fouts, and by only a handful of other QBs in the 10 years after that. (And even though it was the AFL, it was roughly 600 yards more than anyone ever had in the AFL in one season).

I don’t recall debating if he was borderline (tho Soxy makes a pretty valid argument), I’m simply stating what put him over the line (in part).

E5 Yaz · Jan 23, 2020

Mugsy's Jock said:
That said, please never refer to me as "Eli apologist Mugsy's Jock".

You realize you said this in response to a post from a Dope, right? ... A Dope who has the ability to change your sig?

Hoya81 · Jan 23, 2020

joe dokes said:
I was a Namath fan as a kid, but I understand his borderline candidacy. For a bit of historical context, he threw for 4000 yards in 1967, which was not done again til 1979 by Fouts, and by only a handful of other QBs in the 10 years after that. (And even though it was the AFL, it was roughly 600 yards more than anyone ever had in the AFL in one season).

And Fouts only did it after they expanded to 16 games in ‘78.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Jan 24, 2020

Dom was a great football writer on Deadspin, I'm glad to see he's found a new home.

joe dokes · Jan 24, 2020

Papelbon's Poutine said:
I don’t recall debating if he was borderline (tho Soxy makes a pretty valid argument), I’m simply stating what put him over the line (in part).

I was speaking more generally about his enshrinement. He's often mentioned in the borderline group. Or, as NYCSox put it, opening the floodgates for mediocrity. In the context of his times, however, he was more than mediocre.

BaseballJones · Jan 24, 2020

tims4wins said:
This is a great take on Eli

""That's the riddle of Eli: It all depends. One can plausibly question whether he was actually any good while simultaneously debating whether he belongs in the Hall of Fame. To consider Eli Manning is to straddle both extremes. There are no wrong answers."

View: https://twitter.com/tomecurran/status/1220715490756243456

Yeah an argument could be made either way.

Pro Eli HOF:
- He retires being in the top 10 all time in passing yards and passing touchdowns.
- He was never hurt and was a guy you could always count on being there, year after year, for what, 16 years?
- 4x pro bowler
- 2x Super Bowl champion - only a small number of QBs ever accomplished that.
- 8-4 career playoff record.
- Summary: Had great durability (which IS a legit plus), won a ton of games in the spotlight of New York, retires in the top 10 in two huge passing categories (not easy to do, and being a "compiler" is a legitimate way to get into the HOF), and reached the top of the mountain twice, which only a small handful of QBs have ever done.

Anti Eli HOF:
- Never an all-pro.
- .500 career regular season record.
- Career passer rating of just 84.1, in a definitive passer's era.
- Never a top-5 QB in any single season of his career.
- Never led the league in any positive statistical category (only ever led in a category 3 times...all interceptions).
- Summary: Was never "great". Always only ever a little above average, but had longevity and two great playoff runs. That's not nearly enough to be a hall of famer.

He really is a very very interesting case. I personally don't think he was *good* enough to be a hall of famer, but I also think he will easily get into the HOF.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Jan 24, 2020

He was only "good" in 2 of his 16 seasons, as those were the only two years he ever won a playoff game. He's utterly confounding as a candidate.

BaseballJones · Jan 24, 2020

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
He was only "good" in 2 of his 16 seasons, as those were the only two years he ever won a playoff game. He's utterly confounding as a candidate.

The thing is, he wasn't good at ALL in 2007: 56.1%, 23 td, 20 int, 73.9 rating. Woof.

He was good in 2011: 61.0%, 4933 yds, 29 td, 16 int, 92.9 rating.
He was good in 2015: 62.6%, 4432 yds, 35 td, 14 int, 93.6 rating.
He was good in 2014: 63.1%, 4410 yds, 30 td, 14 int, 92.1 rating.
He was good in 2009: 62.3%, 4021 yds, 27 td, 14 int, 93.1 rating.
He was good in 2018: 66.0%, 4299 yds, 21 td, 11 int, 92.4 rating.

Those were good seasons, statistically. But none of them were great. Like, at all. But there's value in having an average-to-above average QB play for you for 16 consecutive seasons. Lots of those guys have won Super Bowls. If you have that kind of player, you can catch fire some years in the playoffs, especially if your defense shows up (which it did for the Giants twice).

Definitely many teams would have LOVED to have had Eli's success over his career. But he has never been GREAT.

NYCSox · Jan 24, 2020

joe dokes said:
I was speaking more generally about his enshrinement. He's often mentioned in the borderline group. Or, as NYCSox put it, opening the floodgates for mediocrity. In the context of his times, however, he was more than mediocre.

Fair points being raised but you also have to take into account that he only had three or maybe four very good seasons (adjusted for era).

And yes I know about the assorted knee injuries which kind of makes this more of a speculative exercise. All that said, I don't think he gets in but for Super Bowl III (which was a very important game of course).

Hoya81 · Jan 24, 2020

BaseballJones said:
The thing is, he wasn't good at ALL in 2007: 56.1%, 23 td, 20 int, 73.9 rating. Woof.

He was good in 2011: 61.0%, 4933 yds, 29 td, 16 int, 92.9 rating.
He was good in 2015: 62.6%, 4432 yds, 35 td, 14 int, 93.6 rating.
He was good in 2014: 63.1%, 4410 yds, 30 td, 14 int, 92.1 rating.
He was good in 2009: 62.3%, 4021 yds, 27 td, 14 int, 93.1 rating.
He was good in 2018: 66.0%, 4299 yds, 21 td, 11 int, 92.4 rating.

Those were good seasons, statistically. But none of them were great. Like, at all. But there's value in having an average-to-above average QB play for you for 16 consecutive seasons. Lots of those guys have won Super Bowls. If you have that kind of player, you can catch fire some years in the playoffs, especially if your defense shows up (which it did for the Giants twice).

Definitely many teams would have LOVED to have had Eli's success over his career. But he has never been GREAT.

McAdoo coming in as OC and coach let to some of his most consistent offensive production, while not terrible successful in terms of wins and losses.

Saints Rest · Jan 24, 2020

tims4wins said:
Passer rating is far from the be-all end-all of stats, but the fact that Eli was only a top 10 passer ONCE in his career by this metric is, simply, jarring.

I think it was Michael Kay (or some other NYC sports radio guy) who basically rattled off Eli's end of year rank in passer rating over his whole career, and it was notable how he lived in the 15-20 range (in terms of ranking). IOW, practically the embodiment of MEDIAN, if not MEAN (although I bet he was close there).

Saints Rest · Jan 24, 2020

tims4wins said:
Now that the 2019 season is complete, Eli's best single season passer rating (93.6 in 2015) is now T-235 on the all time list.

Derek Carr has 3 seasons that were better.

Kirk Cousins has 5.

Jared Goff has 2.

Chad Pennington has 2.

Alex Smith has 2.

Brian Griese has 2.

Chris Chandler has 2.

Dave Krieg has 2.

Jeff Garcia has 3.

Josh McCown has 2.

Marc Bulger has 2.

Matt Schaub has 2.

Rich Gannon has 2.

Ryan Fitzpatrick has 2.

Trent Green has 2.

Don't get me started on all the other guys with one season better than Eli's single best season (e.g., Tyrod Taylor, Testaverde, Bradford, Dalton, Mayfield, Kosar, Damon Huard!, Garrard, Jeff George, Jim Harbaugh, Josh Freeman, Ken O'Brien, Trubisky)... it's a joke.

Wow, Rich Gannon is a great comp for Manning.
Gannon stats
Manning stats

Some salient points of comparison:
(Gannon first, Manning second)

Pro Bowls: 4, 4
1st Team All-Pro: 1, 0
NFL MVP: 1, 0
SB MVP: 0, 2
SB trips: 2, 2
SB wins: 0, 2

StuckOnYouk · Jan 24, 2020

It's obvious that IF he gets in, it's because of his two super bowl runs culminating in beating not just any team but beating the Patriots amidst their dynasty era AND because he was a regular season compiler.

Again in both super bowl runs he had to go on the road against 1 and 2 seeds and was an integral part of those wins.
In 2011 he outplayed Rodgers and they beat a 15-1 packers team, fairly handily.
In the San Fran game Eli got sacked 6 times and hit 12 other times and still managed to throw for over 300 yards with 2 TD's and no Ints. And that was his worst game statistically.
Between both runs he had 15 TDs and 2 INTs.

As I said before the HoF debate takes away from what were the biggest moments of his career. It probably would have been better off of he got injured or retired at 32 or 33.

Boston Brawler · Jan 27, 2020

Per a Bleacher Report notification, LA has moved on from Philip Rivers.

BaseballJones · Jan 28, 2020

I would love to see what Mahomes would get in the open market after another brilliant season in 2020 and 2021. His contract would be INSANE.

snowmanny · Jan 28, 2020

When Mahomes gets an extension is up to him, not the Chiefs.

Ed: see Russell Wilson and Ezekiel Elliott

Ed2: and the terms are up to him. He might be the most valuable asset in sports.

snowmanny · Jan 28, 2020

He can just sit for a couple of games.
Or say sign me now or I’m pulling a Cousins.
You think they won’t fold?

snowmanny · Jan 28, 2020

I can’t say that just because Jerry Jones folded the Chiefs would fold because, well, Jerry, but I don’t think I agree with you.

InstaFace · Jan 28, 2020

A Saudi Arabian hacking outfit took over a lot of NFL teams' twitter accounts on Monday.

E5 Yaz · Jan 29, 2020

Chris Doleman, 58, has died of brain cancer.

2019 NFL: News & Transactions

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