2019 Patriots: Post-SB Roster Thread

tims4wins

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It's so much more fun talking about this stuff coming off a SB win than a loss. Last year the feeling was the Pats had to improve in order to get over the hump... then they lost Solder, Lewis, Cooks, Amendola, and Butler, and then proceeded to take two offensive players in the first round at positions of not-need after the D had been historically torched in the SB, in a draft where we were saying was probably the most important for the medium-term future of the franchise since the 2012 Hightower-Jones draft. Now here we are a year later and I can't help but think that even with the same cast of characters the Pats will be better in 2019 than they were in 2018.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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If we end up with both McCourty brothers back (and maybe even if we just get DMac), secondary depth looks pretty damn good. Safety: DMac, Chung, Harmon, Dawson, Obi. Corner: Gilmore, Jackson, JMac, Jones (tendered), Crossen. It depends somewhat on what they think of the Dawson and Obi but I don't know if it makes much sense to take a safety in the first few rounds of the draft - as has been often speculated upon - if the guy is going to struggle to see the field. We obviously need to find the successors to McCourty and Chung at some point but this offseason I think I'd rather address other positions and just look for a couple late round or UDFA guys who could provide depth and competition at the back end of the roster.
 

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I think there are very few players who are less likely to be traded than DMac (Brady, Slater, . . . I'm not sure I can think of anyone else). I think BB loves DMac for his physical talents, but more so, by a lot, for his leadership on the field and in the locker room. I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that it was DMac in every game giving the pre-game pep talk to the secondary. I think if a team could have only one captain for each phase, and if the coach was in charge of selecting, it would be TB, MS and DMcC.

And as for the depth chart that MMS noted, I think Dawson is considered a CB, not S.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think there are very few players who are less likely to be traded than DMac (Brady, Slater, . . . I'm not sure I can think of anyone else). I think BB loves DMac for his physical talents, but more so, by a lot, for his leadership on the field and in the locker room. I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed that it was DMac in every game giving the pre-game pep talk to the secondary. I think if a team could have only one captain for each phase, and if the coach was in charge of selecting, it would be TB, MS and DMcC.

And as for the depth chart that MMS noted, I think Dawson is considered a CB, not S.
Yup. Pretty special that we may have several “forever Patriots” on the squad in guys like Brady, Gronk, DMC, Edelman, Hightower, Slater, etc. I don’t want any of them to play for another team.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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And as for the depth chart that MMS noted, I think Dawson is considered a CB, not S.
I'm not sure this is really clear. He played outside corner, slot corner, and safety at different times at Florida and after drafting him people like Caserio stressed that his versatility was a big asset. I kind of doubt he profiles as a single high guy who would eventually replace McCourty but they very easily could see him as a potential Chung replacement, playing some deep zone coverages (if not much single high), playing man on tight ends and slot receivers at times, etc.
 

BaseballJones

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Pretty sure he was practicing at S when he came back. That said, Jones also played S in the Super Bowl. So clearly there is some crossover.
That is the key. I don't know if they envision Jones as a long term answer at safety, but my goodness, they trusted him, playing the position for the first time, in the biggest game of the season - the freaking Super Bowl, and he crushed it.

I feel like the way these guys played this past season - especially the second half of the year and the playoffs, that this is probably the best and deepest secondary group I've ever seen.

CB
- Gilmore (28): Best CB in the game and in his prime
- Jackson (23): Looking like he's going to be a stud
- J McCourty (31): Solid vet pro
- Jones (25): Speedster, solid in coverage, versatile
- Dawson (22): Real potential at CB

S
- D McCourty (31): Still a very solid pro
- Chung (31): Tough, plays the run well, solid cover guy on TEs
- Harmon (27): The "closer". Good in pass coverage
- Crossen (22): Tremendous athlete
- Melifonwu (24): Freak athlete, big, fast

I mean, we're not saying that each guy is an all-pro, but as a group, they're fast, skilled, and very versatile. I think they're always looking to add talent to this group but I don't see it as a huge need for 2019.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think DMac is about worth his contract. It’s fair, and may even look like a bargain by a small amount when Earl Thomas signs. There is probably some kind of clever restructure and extend they could do to shave a couple million but my guess is he will be a Patriot at his cap number next year.
 

Jimbodandy

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That is the key. I don't know if they envision Jones as a long term answer at safety, but my goodness, they trusted him, playing the position for the first time, in the biggest game of the season - the freaking Super Bowl, and he crushed it.

I feel like the way these guys played this past season - especially the second half of the year and the playoffs, that this is probably the best and deepest secondary group I've ever seen.

CB
- Gilmore (28): Best CB in the game and in his prime
- Jackson (23): Looking like he's going to be a stud
- J McCourty (31): Solid vet pro
- Jones (25): Speedster, solid in coverage, versatile
- Dawson (22): Real potential at CB

S
- D McCourty (31): Still a very solid pro
- Chung (31): Tough, plays the run well, solid cover guy on TEs
- Harmon (27): The "closer". Good in pass coverage
- Crossen (22): Tremendous athlete
- Melifonwu (24): Freak athlete, big, fast

I mean, we're not saying that each guy is an all-pro, but as a group, they're fast, skilled, and very versatile. I think they're always looking to add talent to this group but I don't see it as a huge need for 2019.
Yeah that versatility is huge. Better backfill for injuries, better able to matchup against an opponent, better to keep QBs guessing at what they're looking at pre snap.

And frankly, more spaghetti to throw against the wall. BFB is not shy to swap guys out even mid superbowl, if someone is struggling (ask Arrington). Having versatile depth there is gold.
 

Saints Rest

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That is the key. I don't know if they envision Jones as a long term answer at safety, but my goodness, they trusted him, playing the position for the first time, in the biggest game of the season - the freaking Super Bowl, and he crushed it.

I feel like the way these guys played this past season - especially the second half of the year and the playoffs, that this is probably the best and deepest secondary group I've ever seen.

CB
- Gilmore (28): Best CB in the game and in his prime
- Jackson (23): Looking like he's going to be a stud
- J McCourty (31): Solid vet pro
- Jones (25): Speedster, solid in coverage, versatile
- Dawson (22): Real potential at CB

S
- D McCourty (31): Still a very solid pro
- Chung (31): Tough, plays the run well, solid cover guy on TEs
- Harmon (27): The "closer". Good in pass coverage
- Crossen (22): Tremendous athlete
- Melifonwu (24): Freak athlete, big, fast

I mean, we're not saying that each guy is an all-pro, but as a group, they're fast, skilled, and very versatile. I think they're always looking to add talent to this group but I don't see it as a huge need for 2019.
So many of these guys are key players in the ST coverage units. Meanwhile, the Pats secondary is repeatedly good at open field tackles and limiting YAC. The correlation makes sense as tackling in the open filed on D is pretty similar to doing so on ST. So does one beget the other?
 

tims4wins

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Pats get 2 3rds and a 6th, as predicted. I thought they would get a 7th as well, don't see any in the tweet though?

Edit: I see it, 252. So 97, 101, 205, 252

 

BigSoxFan

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Pats get 2 3rds and a 6th, as predicted. I thought they would get a 7th as well, don't see any in the tweet though?

Edit: I see it, 252. So 97, 101, 205, 252

Anyone know how order is decided on comp picks? I wanted #99 not #101 dammit!
 

BigSoxFan

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Trade value chart says that Pats can get to around #12 or #13 if they trade 32, 56, 64. Obviously not likely given team needs but they do have the ability to get aggressive, especially with 3 #3’s.
 

tims4wins

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Trade value chart says that Pats can get to around #12 or #13 if they trade 32, 56, 64. Obviously not likely given team needs but they do have the ability to get aggressive, especially with 3 #3’s.
I could see a trade up to grab Hock if he falls into the 20s.
 

BaseballJones

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For a team that has a lot of strengths (and that just won the Lombardi), they sure have a ton of ammo to improve the squad. It's amazing how different the outlook is for this team than when they were losing to Tennessee and Miami and Pittsburgh.
 

snowmanny

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7 of the first 128 picks.

Ed actually that 4th must actually be a bit lower than 128 due to comp picks.
 

Jimbodandy

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For a team that has a lot of strengths (and that just won the Lombardi), they sure have a ton of ammo to improve the squad. It's amazing how different the outlook is for this team than when they were losing to Tennessee and Miami and Pittsburgh.
We don’t see things as they are; we see them as we are.
 

notfar

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Re:OBJ

isn’t he like a huge Brady fan? It seems like he comments on almost every Instagram post Brady has
(From last year)



(Via Dov Kleiman)
If he comes to the pats I wouldn’t be shocked if he was somewhat willing to restructure.
God damn that’s a huge Morton’s toe.
 

dcmissle

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Heard in DC yesterday, for whatever it may be worth.

Pats have strong interest in Jamison Crowder, and although the Redskins do not want to lose him, they really can’t afford to keep him. They understand the Pats are hovering.
 
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I heard a D.C. beat reporter on (edit: another hand slip) Phil Perry's ex-Pats podcast, talking up Crowder. Great guy off the field, has a hard time staying on the field - small and slight - but tremendous quickness and route running. I'd prefer Tampa Bay's Adam Humphries, but whatever BB wants is cool with me.
 

Soxy

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I've always liked Crowder. He fits the profile of the kind of slot guys the Pats like: shifty, agile, and can find soft spots in coverage.

I wouldn't worry about the injuries last season. He only missed one game due to injuries during his first three seasons in the league. He's a slight guy but last year was the only time injuries have kept him off the field for any significant amount of time.
 

singaporesoxfan

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I've always liked Crowder. He fits the profile of the kind of slot guys the Pats like: shifty, agile, and can find soft spots in coverage.

I wouldn't worry about the injuries last season. He only missed one game due to injuries during his first three seasons in the league. He's a slight guy but last year was the only time injuries have kept him off the field for any significant amount of time.
Jamison Crowder on the Patriots would be awesome. He always seems to find a way to get open
 

pappymojo

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Patriots had Crowder in on a private work-out prior to his draft. He was drafted in the fourth round, at 105, of the 2015 draft. In the 4th round that year, the Pats drafted Trey Flowers at 101, Tre' Jackson at 111 and Shaq Mason at 131.
 

InstaFace

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That’s a pretty great 4th round with two regular starters, each of whom is right on the verge of All-Pro level.
All-pro? Trey Flowers, top-4 DE in the league?

I think Van Noy is really underrated and might be a borderline pro bowler, but Flowers? And All-Pro is a whole other level. Basically everyone in that category is nearly a household name with a ton of sacks.

Thuney is a better guard, and both Brown and Cannon better linemen, than Mason. Thuney got a ton of press for taking Aaron Donald one-on-one in the super bowl. Brown is about to have a bidding war for his services. You really think Shaq Mason is easily a pro bowler, and thus in the argument for top-4 guard in the league?

We got great value with the picks, they're good players at great contracts, but let's not go crazy.
 
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All-pro? Trey Flowers, top-4 DE in the league?

I think Van Noy is really underrated and might be a borderline pro bowler, but Flowers? And All-Pro is a whole other level. Basically everyone in that category is nearly a household name with a ton of sacks.

Thuney is a better guard, and both Brown and Cannon better linemen, than Mason. Thuney got a ton of press for taking Aaron Donald one-on-one in the super bowl. Brown is about to have a bidding war for his services. You really think Shaq Mason is easily a pro bowler, and thus in the argument for top-4 guard in the league?

We got great value with the picks, they're good players at great contracts, but let's not go crazy.
Am I missing the sarcasm here? I don't think anyone who watches football thinks that KVN is a better football player than Trey Flowers. KVN is underrated, but so is Flowers because he does not rack up "a ton of sacks" which apparently is the only way that you quantify the value of edge defenders. Trey Flowers was the #6 ranked DE according to PFF, KVN #30 ranked LB.

As for Mason, he was the #1 ranked Guard according to PFF- ahead of Zack Martin, Quenton Nelson, and yes, even Joe Thuney (ranked 7th). I guess it's possible Flowers and Mason have become overrated by this board, but they are certainly two of our elite players and among the best in the league at their respective positions.
 

Soxy

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All-pro? Trey Flowers, top-4 DE in the league?

I think Van Noy is really underrated and might be a borderline pro bowler, but Flowers? And All-Pro is a whole other level. Basically everyone in that category is nearly a household name with a ton of sacks.

Thuney is a better guard, and both Brown and Cannon better linemen, than Mason. Thuney got a ton of press for taking Aaron Donald one-on-one in the super bowl. Brown is about to have a bidding war for his services. You really think Shaq Mason is easily a pro bowler, and thus in the argument for top-4 guard in the league?

We got great value with the picks, they're good players at great contracts, but let's not go crazy.
You are severely underselling Mason. He's one of the best guards in the NFL, which is the Patriots paid him as such last offseason.
 

Jimbodandy

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You are severely underselling Mason. He's one of the best guards in the NFL, which is the Patriots paid him as such last offseason.
Yeah. I agree that Flowers is being oversold in the earlier posts. I have Flowers and Van Noy in the same ballpark, fwiw. But Mason is likely our best lineman. Thuney may be in his vicinity, and Brown/Cannon play more important positions, but Mason is a beast.

This question is better answered by numbers, but my mobile fu isn't strong.
 

PedroKsBambino

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In terms of value within the Patriots system I guess I sort of can imagine why someone would hvae KVN and Flowers close, especially since KVN is more visible and a lot of what Flowers does isn't called out by the announcers. But I don't think there's any actual comparison of value in the broader NFL, Flowers is in a completely different league than KVN.

Just to illustrate that, ESPN did a scouts 'grading' of players pre-Super Bowl (insider content). Flowers was 6th overall across the two rosters with a grade of 89.7, and also ranked 6th in league at his position. KVN was ranked 35th overall across the two rosters with a grade of 70.1, 30th at his position. I think these are actuall PFF grades, but didn't dig deeply into methodology.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/25844742/ranking-top-53-patriots-rams-players-super-bowl-liii

I'd be really, really surprised if there were other assessments that showed things much differently. Mason, fwiw, is 8th across the two rosters graded at 86.2, and rated as the best guard in the NFL. So he and Flowers are very close, but he too is in a different league than KVN. And I love KVN.
 

InstaFace

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Am I missing the sarcasm here? I don't think anyone who watches football thinks that KVN is a better football player than Trey Flowers. KVN is underrated, but so is Flowers because he does not rack up "a ton of sacks" which apparently is the only way that you quantify the value of edge defenders. Trey Flowers was the #6 ranked DE according to PFF, KVN #30 ranked LB.

As for Mason, he was the #1 ranked Guard according to PFF- ahead of Zack Martin, Quenton Nelson, and yes, even Joe Thuney (ranked 7th). I guess it's possible Flowers and Mason have become overrated by this board, but they are certainly two of our elite players and among the best in the league at their respective positions.
I made no statements anything like the bolded. Mischaracterizing an opposing viewpoint may be de rigueur on most of the internet, but it'll tend to keep you a lurker around here.

I was speaking, as is obvious from my post, about what tends to make DEs a "household name" - think three-time DPOY JJ Watt. Or any non-DB DPOY, frankly.

That PFF thinks Shaq Mason is the #1 guard of 2018 is support for those who think he should be an All-Pro, but I'll also add that most mentions of PFF ratings as dispositive of anything tend to get roundly mocked here. Frankly, I'd sooner talk about win rate for OLs, as at least it's not a black box, even if there's a gray-area for the scoring.

edit: I'm open to arguments that I'm underrating Mason, though let's at least acknowledge that Scarnecchia has a way of making every OL look better than they would under any other coach. But it's certainly possible I'm over-weighting Mason's early years, when it seemed that he was getting beat right left and center, especially his rookie year under DeGuglielmo.
 
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I made no statements anything like the bolded. Mischaracterizing an opposing viewpoint may be de rigueur on most of the internet, but it'll tend to keep you a lurker around here.

I was speaking, as is obvious from my post, about what tends to make DEs a "household name" - think three-time DPOY JJ Watt. Or any non-DB DPOY, frankly.
You actually did. By your own logic, Trey Flowers is not a borderline pro-bowler, let alone an All-Pro and cannot possibly be an elite player because he is "not a household name and doesn't rack up a ton of sacks". There are other ways to measure success at Flowers' position outside of name recognition/sexy sacks and by most metrics he is elite.

Totally fine with remaining a lurker here, enjoy reading but don't comment too much. Just thought your post was particularly bad and deserved to be called out.
 

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To be clear, Pro Bowl and All-Pro are voted-upon designations, meaning it's a popularity contest, rather than some deeper value assessment. My comments on what goes into that for front-7 defensive players are a commentary on the former, rather than the latter. Everyone else here understood that, and have focused on the value question. Your sneering condescension continues to ignore that.

Meanwhile, on substance, I don't have Insider to check out PKB's article,but would be interested to read more about Flowers' value, since it's not readily apparent to me the way KVN's scheme versatility and lateral quickness are.
 

Soxy

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I made no statements anything like the bolded. Mischaracterizing an opposing viewpoint may be de rigueur on most of the internet, but it'll tend to keep you a lurker around here.

I was speaking, as is obvious from my post, about what tends to make DEs a "household name" - think three-time DPOY JJ Watt. Or any non-DB DPOY, frankly.

That PFF thinks Shaq Mason is the #1 guard of 2018 is support for those who think he should be an All-Pro, but I'll also add that most mentions of PFF ratings as dispositive of anything tend to get roundly mocked here. Frankly, I'd sooner talk about win rate for OLs, as at least it's not a black box, even if there's a gray-area for the scoring.

edit: I'm open to arguments that I'm underrating Mason, though let's at least acknowledge that Scarnecchia has a way of making every OL look better than they would under any other coach. But it's certainly possible I'm over-weighting Mason's early years, when it seemed that he was getting beat right left and center, especially his rookie year under DeGuglielmo.
Mason was considered a highly skilled, athletic guy with solid technique coming out of college, but he's undersized (short and has short arms), and played in an old fashioned, run-heavy, option offense at Georgia Tech. He was a bit of a projection (many thought he would have to play center in the NFL because of his size) and was always viewed as more of a long-term project, which is why he fell to the 4th round. He rarely pass blocked in college. His senior season at Tech I think they threw the ball like a 100 times and ran it over 700. Pass blocking was always going to be a work in the progress, especially out of the gate. Which may be why you remember him struggling more during his first couple seasons.

The past couple seasons, Mason has been awesome and would probably get my vote for best Pats offensive lineman. He can still have an occasional lapse in pass blocking. Many fans will probably remember him as the guy who got beat by Brandon Graham in last year's Super Bowl, leading to the Brady strip sack that pretty much cost them the game. But he's mostly been a beast in the run game and rock solid in the passing game.
 

PedroKsBambino

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That PFF thinks Shaq Mason is the #1 guard of 2018 is support for those who think he should be an All-Pro, but I'll also add that most mentions of PFF ratings as dispositive of anything tend to get roundly mocked here. Frankly, I'd sooner talk about win rate for OLs, as at least it's not a black box, even if there's a gray-area for the scoring.
FWIW, Mason was sixth among guards in ESPN's final pass block win rate stats of the season---and I think most of us recognize he's a better run blocker than pass blocker given his college pedigree.