2019 Patriots: Post-SB Roster Thread

BigSoxFan

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That's the thing about the Patriots offseason---even on a messageboard dedicated to analyzing the team's moves, it's awfully hard not to simply believe that the Pats know so much more than we do about these guys and the right formula that we should just sit back and watch them operate.
Has every Pats move worked out? Should we just not discuss anything except for how attractive Tom Brady is? I’m fine with that if that’s what you prefer. He truly is dreamy.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Has every Pats move worked out? Should we just not discuss anything except for how attractive Tom Brady is? I’m fine with that if that’s what you prefer. He truly is dreamy.
That's not at all what I said, of course. But if you feel a need to genuflect to Brady that's totally ok in today's society, man...
 

tims4wins

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We thought they might go undefeated in 2017. They didn’t come close. We thought it might be over in 2018. They won a ring. Sure we can discuss. It is fun. But we don’t know shit.
 

BigSoxFan

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That's not at all what I said, of course. But if you feel a need to genuflect to Brady that's totally ok in today's society, man...
You appeared to be critical of any criticism of what the Pats are doing. If that’s not what you meant, then please clarify.
 

BigSoxFan

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We thought they might go undefeated in 2017. They didn’t come close. We thought it might be over in 2018. They won a ring. Sure we can discuss. It is fun. But we don’t know shit.
Of course we don’t know shit. No fan does. Maybe I misread or misinterpreted the intent of PKB’s post.
 

rodderick

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Yeah they’ve only gone to the Super Bowl all 3 years he has been WR2 and won 2 of them. It’s pathetic. They should sign Dobson and Boyce then they’d be awesome
This is such a stupid response. So every single player on the roster is awesome and no upgrades are needed because the team as a whole has been successful? And it's funny you use Aaron Dobson as a punchline when in the only season he started more than 3 games he put up stats very similar to Hogan's production with the Patriots.
 

tims4wins

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Cmon man it’s a joke. I’d love an upgrade too. But to say you “can’t take another season” of Hogan is equally stupid.
 

dcmissle

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I saw this a couple days ago. Caserio does it every year. I wish I knew that before now because it has an enormous calming influence.

All of it is excellent, but the money portion for present purposes is 2:40 through the end. 32 teams have problems. No team is better in coming up with solutions and keeping its eye on the stuff that matters most.

https://www.patriots.com/video/nick-caserio-on-building-for-the-future
 

SMU_Sox

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We thought they might go undefeated in 2017. They didn’t come close. We thought it might be over in 2018. They won a ring. Sure we can discuss. It is fun. But we don’t know shit.
I compared their defense to a golf cart. I am an idiot.
 

ZMart100

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What could they do to reduce his cap hit? I assume they don't want to extend him. Any other avenues?
They could try to convert some of his salary into not likely to be earned bonuses like they did with Dwayne Allen. That would be the sort of thing Hightower would probably decline.
 

Jimbodandy

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Notes on Howe's latest column from Indy

--Keep an eye on Cam Fleming as a player to pair Isaiah Wynn with for next year.
https://theathletic.com/846223/2019/03/01/howe-what-ive-learned-about-the-patriots-offseason-plans-at-the-nfl-scouting-combine/
They better carry three quarterbacks next year then. At least.

Imo, Fleming is a big dropoff from Waddle, who's already a big dropoff from Brown/Cannon. And even if one is high on Wynn, he'll be essentially a rookie.

If those guys are starting, best to hand off 40 times a game until the bye.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Can’t link but Miguel says second round RFA tender is going to be $3.095 million this year, so that’s the likely cap hit for Jones.

Another tidbit is that Gostkowski is basically not a franchise candidate because under the 120 percent rule his tag number would be almost $6 million — $1 million more than the kicker franchise number.
 
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That's a slightly lower range than I expected. I'd sign Flowers for that range (closer to 15 is as high as I think the Pats would go) over five years, NO PROBLEM.
 

Seels

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yea you'd have to think if something like 5/75 is an option for bringing back Flowers they're all over it.

I'd like the Pats to bring him back but he's not irreplaceable. Flowers very much seems like the type of guy who as much as anyone is a product of the environment.
 

tims4wins

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Flowers might be a guy who is more valuable to the Pats than anyone else... but he might also be a guy whose traditional stats are held back by the Pats system and could thrive elsewhere (Chandler Jones?). I really have no idea.
 

dcmissle

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JokersWildJIMED

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Omar Kelly: I’ve been told by a very reliable source that Patriots free agent Trey Flowers will get $14-17M on his next deal. Do with that whatever you’d like.
Patriots don't leak so it sounds like he is gone...too bad...probably the Lions or maybe Dolphins
 
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I don't believe that any of the franchise possibilities - Flowers, Trent Brown or Gost - will be designated. None of them is worth doing that with, imo. Brown did a really good job this year, tremendous value, but he doesn't seem like a guy we want to pay long term. I'd love to bring Flowers back, but they're unlikely to franchise him.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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The Patriots really don't have the money to tag anyone. The Allen cut was their one move that easily frees up space. Flowers would be $17 million, Brown would be $14 million and Gostkowski would be $6 million (he's a 120 percent tag player).

They ain't got it. Too many needs. Too little money. They just don't have very much cap flexibility left. Tagging Flowers, for example, would leave them $7 million, with no guaranteed ability to cut very much else and with rookies and mid season stuff needing more than double that.

If they want these players at these numbers they have to sign them and amortize it over 5 years to be able to do it.
 

TheoShmeo

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So when do we hear the news of a Brady extension? Now? During the season? Never?

My money is on soon.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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The Patriots really don't have the money to tag anyone. The Allen cut was their one move that easily frees up space. Flowers would be $17 million, Brown would be $14 million and Gostkowski would be $6 million (he's a 120 percent tag player).

They ain't got it. Too many needs. Too little money. They just don't have very much cap flexibility left. Tagging Flowers, for example, would leave them $7 million, with no guaranteed ability to cut very much else and with rookies and mid season stuff needing more than double that.

If they want these players at these numbers they have to sign them and amortize it over 5 years to be able to do it.
Exactly.

BB has shown us repeatedly over the last 8-10 years that (a) he doesn't like to use the tag and (b) he places a lot of value on bringing in cheap or mid-range vets and having real competition at the back end of the roster. He's not going to have Flowers at a $17M cap figure and then be unable to afford quality veteran solutions at positions like DT, backup OT, and WR, not to mention bringing back Ghost and Allen or finding comparable players in the kicking game.

They'll let Flowers go to free agency, put together their own offer for him at the figure they feel is right, and tell him to take the deal he wants, just like they did with High and McCourty.

I don't think franchising Brown is even a consideration. Ghost at $6M, just to kick that can down the road one year, is probably the most likely but I don't see it happening either.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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So when do we hear the news of a Brady extension? Now? During the season? Never?

My money is on soon.
I think I read here (maybe) that they can't do anything with him until August because you can only modify once per year.

So, I don't think they can get any cap relief before the new league year starts next week. Also, as has been discussed, there's really not much they can do with him any way in terms of 2019 cap relief. Maybe they can eek out a little at the margins, but not enough to be able to use the money to make a significant splash anywhere.
 

tims4wins

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They can't restructure Brady's deal until August, that is correct, but what about an extension - can they do that before August?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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They can't restructure Brady's deal until August, that is correct, but what about an extension - can they do that before August?
I'm not sure. I believe that so long as it includes additional money for the year already under contract that they can only do it once a year, and the only way to get cap relief is with a new money component, but I don't really know how a new singing bonus would be treated and whether it constitutes new money within the term of the original contract. My instinct is that it must, because that is the exact reason for having the limit for once per year on deals that lower the current term cap hit by adding new money. So, while I think the rule would be violated in spirit, I cannot say for certain whether it would be violated in fact. But here's the not-exactly-clear language from the CBA:

"The contract of a Veteran Player may not be renegotiated to increase the Salary to be paid to the player during the original terms of the contract for a period of twelve months after the player’s most recent contract renegotiation. The first renegotiation of a Veteran Player Contract, however, may take place at any time."

And here's the definition of "Salary":

“Salary” means any compensation of money, property, investments, loans, or anything else of value that a Club pays to, or is obligated to pay to, a player or Player Affiliate, or is paid to a third party at the request of and for the benefit of a player or Player Affiliate, during a League Year
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Hmmmm...


"Source reiterated the following to me tonight following day three of the NFL Combine:
#Patriots are still in pursuit of a premier WR and are expected to "be aggressive" in the trade market to acquire one."

McNeely's been right before. He also has a draft spreadsheet w/ players that had Pats visit them:


Still think OBJ, not Brown (and that'd be the right call, assuming Steelers would still trade him to the Pats).
 

dcmissle

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I take the NYG at their word. And the Patriots usually do not telegraph their moves.
 

tims4wins

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Wasn't the Cooks deal a stealth move? Nobody expected that. I don't think that any move the Pats make for a major player is going to be one that is easily figured out.
Yep, they had probably had talks regarding Butler or whatever then the Cooks trade materialized
 

RedOctober3829

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I saw a suggestion of Marcus Cannon for Adam Thielen. It's not a terrible idea. Thielen has 2 years left while Cannon has 3 years left, but Cannon's last year is non-guaranteed.
Cap hits
Cannon: $7.45, $7.75, $6.26 non-guaranteed
Thielen: $8.1, $6.5
 

DJnVa

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Why would Vikings want to trade Thielen? I haven't seen that.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think everyone immediately jumps to the top 10 receivers when they read a tweet like that, but I'm not sure that's what we're talking about.

If the Cooks trade is indicative, what the Patriots would likely love to do again is use draft picks to buy the last year or two of a proven cost controlled receiver. I would think the Panthers may be a trade partner. Good receivers and no Cam next year. Or something like that. What they have is draft picks and what they don't really have at the moment is cap space. I think that's what we're talking about.
 

snowmanny

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McNeely's been right before. He also has a draft spreadsheet w/ players that had Pats visit them:


Still think OBJ, not Brown (and that'd be the right call, assuming Steelers would still trade him to the Pats).
If I'm reading that spreadsheet correctly, the Patriots visited"

10 WR
9 TE
4 RB
3 OL
2 QB
and 1 EDGE (Jalen Jelks, OR)
 

SMU_Sox

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Kind of makes sense given the board. Deep WR and deep TE class plenty of which available on day 2 when they have 5,000 picks.
 

SMU_Sox

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They'll draft best available safety
Pats Pulpit has a different list. DBs get updated last. After testing the first guy I thought of way Taylor Rapp who I know @Super Nomario has followed for quite some time. Nasir Adderley is another guy who might be available at 32 who is going to blow up the interview room with his love for special teams (HT: Evan Lazar). Safety is also a position that might drop off quite a bit after the second round, it’s definitely a need for the long term, and there are guys in that range like CGJ who fit what the Pats like (versatility) in their types of safeties. To me a guy like CGJ would be your long term Chung replacement. Maybe this year they hit the right guy... I mean the coin has to land on heads eventually. Right?
 

snowmanny

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RE: Nasir Adderly I know it's Elon and Cornell or something the but the first 90 or so seconds of this highlight reel are fun

 

E5 Yaz

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So 11 months ago, there was this on NESN linking the Pats to Josh Rosen.

https://nesn.com/2018/04/patriots-have-expressed-interest-in-drafting-ucla-qb-josh-rosen/

I know, they were also linked to Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson as well.

Anyone hearing anything about Rosen to NE? Being tossed around down here as potential competition for Wash.
Dan Patrick has mentioned this on his radio show, and I've seen various internet mentions, but nothing concrete AFAIK
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Cons could be because he'll be 30 years old at the end of his deal and will want a huge contract. They need OL help and have depth at WR.
They don’t have depth if they trade Thielen.

The Rosen stuff is a little interesting. You’re guaranteed to get him for far less than his original draft cost. And there’s serious pressure on Arizona to deal him before they draft Kyler and lose whatever leverage they might have. But at the same time, Rosen was bad, with the obvious caveats about an atrocious OL and a poorly conceived offense. Trust your scouting but don’t go crazy given the quantity of picks.
 

dcmissle

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They don’t have depth if they trade Thielen.

The Rosen stuff is a little interesting. You’re guaranteed to get him for far less than his original draft cost. And there’s serious pressure on Arizona to deal him before they draft Kyler and lose whatever leverage they might have. But at the same time, Rosen was bad, with the obvious caveats about an atrocious OL and a poorly conceived offense. Trust your scouting but don’t go crazy given the quantity of picks.
Jeff Fisher forever changed my patience with QBs who suck in any year, especially if it is out of the gate.

Another Fisher trophy — he had Nick Foles for a year when he sucked as well.

The whole situation in Arizona was atrocious on offense.

This is a chance to buy low on a decent QB talent. If they didn’t like him, fine. If they did, I would not be a bit surprised if they deal for him.