2019 Pats: OL Discussion

Super Nomario

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How many players have missed as much time as Wynn has this early in his career and gone on to do anything? He's played maybe 200 total pro snaps, including the preseason, and suffered two major injuries.
 

lexrageorge

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How many players have missed as much time as Wynn has this early in his career and gone on to do anything? He's played maybe 200 total pro snaps, including the preseason, and suffered two major injuries.
It's a bit hard to extrapolate, as players have missed their rookie years with injury and have gone on to productive careers. While not analogous, Ben Watson missed quite a bit of time early on his career. Marcus Cannon as well. Folks were writing Gronk off nearly every year.

The turf toe is a random injury event that can happen to anyone, and is completely unrelated to his earlier injury. Most players recover from it without complications. Wynn looked good in live game action, so he'll be given every opportunity. I would be more worried if it was a new Achilles injury, a knee or back, or a concussion. With injuries, the details and nature of the injury really matter; a lot.
 

Super Nomario

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It's a bit hard to extrapolate, as players have missed their rookie years with injury and have gone on to productive careers. While not analogous, Ben Watson missed quite a bit of time early on his career. Marcus Cannon as well. Folks were writing Gronk off nearly every year.
None of these players missed close to as much time as Wynn. Watson missed basically his whole rookie year but played 15 games in year two. Cannon started on PUP/NFI (because of cancer, not injury) but played 7 games as rookie and was healthy Y2. Gronk played all 16 games both of his first two years (he did miss his whole final year of college). I'm struggling to think of a positive precedent; more guys like Easley or Senquez Golson come to mind.
 

lexrageorge

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None of these players missed close to as much time as Wynn. Watson missed basically his whole rookie year but played 15 games in year two. Cannon started on PUP/NFI (because of cancer, not injury) but played 7 games as rookie and was healthy Y2. Gronk played all 16 games both of his first two years (he did miss his whole final year of college). I'm struggling to think of a positive precedent; more guys like Easley or Senquez Golson come to mind.
Easley had a chronic knee injury, and he did not follow the team's rehab program.

It's entirely possible that Wynn could be an injury-prone bust. I just think it's premature to project that at this stage; there are too many random variables at play when it comes to injuries.
 

sonofgodcf

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If it doesn't get Brady killed (knock on wood); Wynn's injury may be a blessing. Let's discover what we have for depth/get everyone some reps and then have him come on healthy and strong for the second half.

One downside though is I imagine this makes the likelihood of us seeing Harry this year a bit less. At some point another player is going to hit IR, and WR may be a less pressing need than elsewhere on the team (of course, that could change on a Goodell whim...).
 

Mugsy's Jock

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At least Wynn’s IR stint hits during the soft underbelly of the schedule. And the 8 weeks includes the bye, right?

On a related note I’m surprised not to have seen mentioned yet, wtf Russell Bodine? For a moment the rationale for his getting disappeared was he needed a week to pick up the system, but that story’s dated now. Did he do something awful the Pats discovered?

Hasn’t landed anywhere else either. Pissing away a straight sixth rounder (no pick swap) sucks.
 
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On a related note I’m surprised not to have seen mentioned yet, wtf Russell Bodine? For a moment the rationale for his getting disappeared was he needed a week to pick up the system, but that story’s dated now. Did he do something awful the Pats discovered?

Hasn’t landed anywhere else either. Pissing away a straight sixth rounder (no pick swap) sucks.
God, it’d have to be SUPER awful, given the latest parameters. #newrules
 

Super Nomario

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On a related note I’m surprised not to have seen mentioned yet, wtf Russell Bodine? For a moment the rationale for his getting disappeared was he needed a week to pick up the system, but that story’s dated now. Did he do something awful the Pats discovered?

Hasn’t landed anywhere else either. Pissing away a straight sixth rounder (no pick swap) sucks.
Two thoughts:
1) They might have planned to flip Ferentz for Bodine after Week 1, but Cannon's injury changed the equation. They didn't dress a true backup T Week 1 (Thuney slid to RT and Eluemunor played LG), but once Cannon got dinged up, it became vital to add a tackle (Newhouse) and dress a true third tackle (Cunningham). That meant Karras' backup really needed to be a guy who could sub at G or C, which is why Eluemunor was inactive and why it made sense to stick with Ferentz over Bodine. Bodine has, from what I can tell, exclusively played center all the way back through college.
2) Bodine stinks and maybe they didn't realize it. They probably did due diligence on him in 2014 (they took Stork six picks before Bodine) and might not have done a good job updating their scouting report in this instance. It happens.

Either way, I'm not sweating a sixth. They haven't had a sixth stick since Karras and Roberts in 2016.
 

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Pats have a T (Dan Skipper who played a LOT during pre-season) and a G (Najee Toran, who spent last year mostly on the 49ers PS, but comes out of UCLA where he started in all 13 games at offensive guard and was named honorable mention All-Pac-12 by the league coaches).
 

dcmissle

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I would try to pry Trent Williams out of the dysfunctional, delusional, short sighted and vindictive mess in Washington DC.

They would probably hang up the phone precisely because he would go from hell to heaven with a good shot at a ring. But I would try.
 

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I would try to pry Trent Williams out of the dysfunctional, delusional, short sighted and vindictive mess in Washington DC.

They would probably hang up the phone precisely because he would go from hell to heaven with a good shot at a ring. But I would try.
I think the issue here is purely about cap space. The only way they could make it happen is by pushing even bigger hits into 2020.
I think the OL is all going to ride on Dante.
 

bankshot1

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I'm not a capolgist, but QnD, I think with bonus money and a boost in guaranteed $$ and a modest extension (ghost years) for Trent Williams, the cap issue can be massaged. It pushes the issue into 2020-21, but IMO its not debilitating. I think the real issue may be giving up the #1+ (Pats drafting at ~ 30-32 may require a sweetner) for an injury prone 31 year old guy.

I'd be inclined to GFIN.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Also, keep in mind the salary is prorated. So, if they were able to make a trade at the deadline in week 8, the salary hit would be around $5m, not $10m.
 

Jimbodandy

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Newhouse to start at LT against Jets--"Really a smart player" per Dante.
Fwiw, I feel way better about Dante's ability to patch together a decent line with a week of prep. There's a dropoff fromm the starters, by definition, but they can gameplan around the replacements' weaknesses in practice.

We're back to a thin margin, however. Someone else gets dinged mid game, and now the dropoff is substantial again. And the next man up is from even lower on the depth chart.

Call me Chicken Little, but I'm going to light a candle for OL health every weekend until Cannon and Wynn are both back.
 

InstaFace

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Isaiah Wynn to be activated, likely tomorrow:

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1196461051266686977


Evan Lazar:
Belichick on Isaiah Wynn: “We’ll certainly want to make him active. What his role will be, we’ll see.” Sounds like the #Patriots are planning on activating Wynn.

---

We have no idea whether he'll be Trent Brown or just barely adequate. But he doesn't need to be very good to be better than Newhouse, and help on the most glaring weakness of the entire team.

edit: bonus Wynn tweet:
View: https://twitter.com/BrycenNFL/status/1100077397813182465
 

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Am I the only one worried about his ability to stay healthy? Maybe I'm just too glass-half-empty lately, rather than focusing on the fact that we have a plus OL patch coming right when we need it most.
 

E5 Yaz

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Am I the only one worried about his ability to stay healthy?
I worry about the ability of every player to stay healthy.

And I think Wynn's health is pretty much a given when discussing him. There are multiple posts discussing his health over the past two pages of this thread.
 

bsj

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Let's say Wynn comes back and it is a strong LT that doesnt need help.

Is that one change enough to fix what appear to be multiple holes on the line?
Does getting everyone back into position, and not having to help as much on that edge, help that much?
 

tims4wins

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Let's say Wynn comes back and it is a strong LT that doesnt need help.

Is that one change enough to fix what appear to be multiple holes on the line?
Does getting everyone back into position, and not having to help as much on that edge, help that much?
If the Eagles O line performance was any indication, one guy can make a pretty damn big difference. 10 points prior to Lane Johnson injury / 0 sacks vs. 0 points / 5 sacks after.

It was mentioned upthread but let's not forge Newhouse was signed during week 2. To play left tackle. It's not like he was signed as a backup in March and was in the team's plans.
 

splendid splinter

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I think the o-line is the #1 position group where having a truly weak link can have a domino effect that hurts the performance of the entire line, so getting Wynn back could really improve things across the board.
 

InstaFace

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I think the o-line is the #1 position group where having a truly weak link can have a domino effect that hurts the performance of the entire line, so getting Wynn back could really improve things across the board.
The drop to the replacement level is also worth noting. Andrews is a great center, but the drop to Karras hasn't been that bad. The drop to Newhouse has been precipitous, to put it lightly. Normies like me can watch him getting beat like a Bugs Bunny villain, play after play, it just jumps off the screen at you.
 

BaseballJones

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Let's say Wynn comes back and it is a strong LT that doesnt need help.

Is that one change enough to fix what appear to be multiple holes on the line?
Does getting everyone back into position, and not having to help as much on that edge, help that much?
I don’t know if “fixed” is the right word. Maybe “massively improve” is more likely. Right now they’re pretty much a terrible offensive line. Wynn could upgrade them to decent. Which is probably enough given Brady + the defense.
 

Van Everyman

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The drop to the replacement level is also worth noting. Andrews is a great center, but the drop to Karras hasn't been that bad. The drop to Newhouse has been precipitous, to put it lightly. Normies like me can watch him getting beat like a Bugs Bunny villain, play after play, it just jumps off the screen at you.
I'm not sure I agree with this, not completely anyway. Karras may be ok as a blocker, but to me the real drop-off is from Andrews' communications skills. Maybe Karras gets better at it -- but it's clear Andrews has been a star on the line since 2016 for more than just his blocking abilities. I'd be interested to know how close he and Brady are -- I'd guess pretty close.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'm not sure I agree with this, not completely anyway. Karras may be ok as a blocker, but to me the real drop-off is from Andrews' communications skills. Maybe Karras gets better at it -- but it's clear Andrews has been a star on the line since 2016 for more than just his blocking abilities. I'd be interested to know how close he and Brady are -- I'd guess pretty close.
This is on point. Every position group needs a leader, a go-to guy. That was Andrews. The triple loss of Gronk, Andrews and Devlin f'd the run game
 

tims4wins

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This is on point. Every position group needs a leader, a go-to guy. That was Andrews. The triple loss of Gronk, Andrews and Devlin f'd the run game
Quadruple loss: T Brown / Wynn at LT. And you can also throw in a downgrade at TE2 from Dwayne Allen. That's a lot of downgrades.
 

Super Nomario

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This is on point. Every position group needs a leader, a go-to guy. That was Andrews. The triple loss of Gronk, Andrews and Devlin f'd the run game
I don't think Shaq Mason has been the same this year either. Maybe that's Andrews missing, maybe it's injury, I don't know. His PFF grade has slipped a lot, which matches the eye test. So now we're talking dropoffs on 60% of the OL, both TE (don't forget Allen's blocking), and FB. Wynn's return hopefully fixes one of those problems but that still leaves four or five more.
 

E5 Yaz

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I don't think Shaq Mason has been the same this year either. Maybe that's Andrews missing, maybe it's injury, I don't know. His PFF grade has slipped a lot, which matches the eye test. So now we're talking dropoffs on 60% of the OL, both TE (don't forget Allen's blocking), and FB. Wynn's return hopefully fixes one of those problems but that still leaves four or five more.
None of these facts will stop the yahoos out there from saying it's Brady's decline. A running game and a clean pocket can make rich men out of the Chris Hogans of this world
 

E5 Yaz

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Another thing that plays here is that while all lead runners would love to have a hole ... it really seems as though Sony "needs" to have a hole. Don't here a lot of calls where he "made something out of nothing."
 

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In Game 1 this season, when Wynn was still healthy, the Pats rushed 29 times for 99 yards (3.4 ypa). For the season, they are averaging 91.0 RYG, and 3.3 ypa. Now a lot has happened elsewhere in that offense, but it doesn't seem like this team was a rushing juggernaut until Wynn went down.
 

E5 Yaz

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In Game 1 this season, when Wynn was still healthy, the Pats rushed 29 times for 99 yards (3.4 ypa). For the season, they are averaging 91.0 RYG, and 3.3 ypa. Now a lot has happened elsewhere in that offense, but it doesn't seem like this team was a rushing juggernaut until Wynn went down.
steelers have a good run defense?
 

BaseballJones

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None of these facts will stop the yahoos out there from saying it's Brady's decline. A running game and a clean pocket can make rich men out of the Chris Hogans of this world
It’s all that. Bad OL. Missing key blockers. Runners haven’t done a good job getting extra yards. And Brady hasn’t been as sharp as usual.
 

tims4wins

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In Game 1 this season, when Wynn was still healthy, the Pats rushed 29 times for 99 yards (3.4 ypa). For the season, they are averaging 91.0 RYG, and 3.3 ypa. Now a lot has happened elsewhere in that offense, but it doesn't seem like this team was a rushing juggernaut until Wynn went down.
The Steelers are the #3 overall defense by DVOA (although only #11 vs. the run). They are #5 in the league in terms of YPC against. So they're pretty good. They also focused heavily on stopping the run when Sony was in there - the other backs had a lot more success. Sony had a bunch of short conversions in that game IIRC which decreased the Pats YPC.

And I know it means nothing, but Sony looked awesome in the preseason.
 

Van Everyman

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I don't think Shaq Mason has been the same this year either. Maybe that's Andrews missing, maybe it's injury, I don't know. His PFF grade has slipped a lot, which matches the eye test.
It's obviously a different time and position. But back in the 80s, I remember we had Brian Holloway come speak to our K-9 school. My math teacher (and basketball coach) *hated* Brian Holloway and said his entire reputation was based on John Hannah being All-World. And sure enough, the second Hannah retired, Holloway was a shell of his former self (and actually was a shell in SBXX when Richard Dent destroyed him). So I do think sometimes players on the OL are dependent on the guys next to them.
 

lexrageorge

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Wynn is certainly not a panacea to all that ills the OL. There's just too many downgrades from last season (FB, C, RG, TE1, TE2). However, if Wynn can keep Brady upright a bit longer, that may be just enough to give Brady enough time to go through his progressions. Too many plays are left on the field because Brady is running for his life once he gets the ball.
 

Super Nomario

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It's obviously a different time and position. But back in the 80s, I remember we had Brian Holloway come speak to our K-9 school. My math teacher (and basketball coach) *hated* Brian Holloway and said his entire reputation was based on John Hannah being All-World. And sure enough, the second Hannah retired, Holloway was a shell of his former self (and actually was a shell in SBXX when Richard Dent destroyed him). So I do think sometimes players on the OL are dependent on the guys next to them.
I remember watching one play a few weeks back that should have been a double-team block, with Karras putting an arm on the DT so Mason had the opportunity to get good position to seal him off and drive. Then Karras could go to the second level, but Karras just went straight there without getting a hand on the DT and Mason got hung out to dry and rolled. That was just one play and maybe not something that has been happening regularly, but the amount of timing and coordination required on middle runs, especially in a power blocking scheme, is pretty intense. So it wouldn't surprise me if that's a big factor. But I don't think he's been as sharp in pass pro either, which is likely more on him.
 
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Allen was released with a (knee) injury settlement on August 31. You’d think he could be healthy by now, knows the system and couldn’t be worse than LaCosse or Izzo. His blocking could really help. I wonder how bad his knee is. Haven’t found any news of his being brought in, even for a sniff.