2020 Golf Thread

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,322
Is CT open to out-of-state players? Anything near the Mass. border off 84 worth playing?
Yes it is. Connecticut National, Keney Park, Topstone, Rolling Meadows, Cedar Knob have all gotten good reviews from friends/acquaintances of mine. Weekend Tee Times very difficult to come by though.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,322
PXG is having a crazy sale on their site if anyone is interested.

Lord knows I don't need more clubs.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,573
Played Windham in CT last week. At $38 for a round (no cart) I got what I paid for. Played Quinatisset in CT the week before. It's a private club that you may be able to talk your way on to. $50 for a great round. (Walking).
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,322
Played Windham in CT last week. At $38 for a round (no cart) I got what I paid for. Played Quinatisset in CT the week before. It's a private club that you may be able to talk your way on to. $50 for a great round. (Walking).
I actually like the Windham layout for a muni, there are some fun holes there. The conditioning and surrounding area leaves a lot to be desired.

Also the 17th tee there is the most confounding layout decision I've ever seen.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
32,603
Well this was inevitable. Owner of kettle brook and wachusett golf course in central mass will be opening the courses this week in defiance of governor baker. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/mass-golf-course-owner-set-to-defy-states-ban-on-golfing-will-reopen.amp
Friend of mine is 'fogging' Wachusett CC and the carts, etc. with anti-microbials (they've been doing this long before COVID-19 for thousands of restaurants and schools, but they have EPA/CDC approval for CV-19 now) today, so yeah, this seems like it's happening.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
10,486
The Paris of the 80s
Looking longer term: I'm thinking we're going to see some course closures after this year. There were already a few saying they were struggling. Missing a big chunk at the front of the season may be the end for some, especially if people don't play rounds at the normal frequency the rest of the year AND corporate/charity tournaments get cancelled. Those tournaments can be big money makers.
 

jercra

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
2,230
Arvada, Co
Looking longer term: I'm thinking we're going to see some course closures after this year. There were already a few saying they were struggling. Missing a big chunk at the front of the season may be the end for some, especially if people don't play rounds at the normal frequency the rest of the year AND corporate/charity tournaments get cancelled. Those tournaments can be big money makers.
Obviously a small sample, but I have a buddy who owns a course in Portland, Or. that says business is the best it's ever been (course has been in his family for decades). With people unable to play tennis, or go bowling or go to their kids soccer/baseball/lax/whatever games, more and more people are doing the one thing they can: golf. Beyond what he's said, I can confirm that it's damn near impossible to get a tee time anywhere, and almost every course is now open here. Finally, one observation I've made frequently while golfing during all of this is the very increased amount of women on the golf course. There are so many more couples playing together, for obvious reasons, and a lot more female foursomes out there. In short, while I know a lot of courses were on the brink of failure, I think, at least for a while, they will be busier than they ever have been.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Obviously a small sample, but I have a buddy who owns a course in Portland, Or. that says business is the best it's ever been (course has been in his family for decades). With people unable to play tennis, or go bowling or go to their kids soccer/baseball/lax/whatever games, more and more people are doing the one thing they can: golf. Beyond what he's said, I can confirm that it's damn near impossible to get a tee time anywhere, and almost every course is now open here. Finally, one observation I've made frequently while golfing during all of this is the very increased amount of women on the golf course. There are so many more couples playing together, for obvious reasons, and a lot more female foursomes out there. In short, while I know a lot of courses were on the brink of failure, I think, at least for a while, they will be busier than they ever have been.
OTOH, I don't think you can assume that the difficulty to get a tee time is indicative of their financial health:
  • they can't have as many tee times which will create greater scarcity while limiting revenues.
  • no cart rentals.
  • no pro shop sales.
  • no 19th hole sales.
My guess is that the combo of all those things is putting revenues at about 1/2 of normal. Some costs will be reduced (no F&B costs, no servers to hire), but that's a huge hit.
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
11,304
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
OTOH, I don't think you can assume that the difficulty to get a tee time is indicative of their financial health:
  • they can't have as many tee times which will create greater scarcity while limiting revenues.
  • no cart rentals.
  • no pro shop sales.
  • no 19th hole sales.
My guess is that the combo of all those things is putting revenues at about 1/2 of normal. Some costs will be reduced (no F&B costs, no servers to hire), but that's a huge hit.
Less staff to pay though. Our course is running at 1/4 capacity in the clubhouse. Still doing take out and halfway house.

I think courses will be fine as long as they are allowed to open. MA courses might be fucked.
 

Zomp

Dope
Dope
Aug 28, 2006
12,004
The Slums of Shaolin
Here in RI some public courses have raised rates. Which is fine. I get it. The course I played this weekend last year was 38 walking, this year its 49.

But tee times are 15 minutes apart. Last year at the same course, a weekend round on a nice day would be 5+ hours. On Sunday we played in 4:15.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,322
a) I wouldn't chance it
b) courses are saying IDs are checked on the first tee/check-in
 

cshea

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
24,902
306, row 14
FWIW, a buddy of mine works at an NH course and said they are having the starter check ID’s for every player. Not sure if all courses will follow a similar policy.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Less staff to pay though. Our course is running at 1/4 capacity in the clubhouse. Still doing take out and halfway house.

I think courses will be fine as long as they are allowed to open. MA courses might be fucked.
1/4 capacity of golfers?
So I'm going to use some simple rates, rounded for ease of math, but pretty close to the public courses near my place on the Cape.
Normal golfing:
  • $75/green fees. $20 cart rental. Not all golfers ride, let's say half do. So a foursome would be $340 gross for the golf only.
  • Then tee times are 6.5/hour (I think they do every 9 minutes), so that's $2,210/hour. Figure 10 hours of play in a day. THat's $22k/day.
Now in COVID golfing:
  • If you're only at 1/4 capacity of golfers (I would guess some places might get to half) and you can't rent any carts, you're down from 26 golfers and 6.5 carts per hour to 6.25 golfers and zero carts per hour. So that's $487.50/hour of $4875 per day.
That's a reduction in gross revs from golf of about 78%. On the golf side, you maybe are cutting one person per day from the pro shop, and you don't need anyone to maintain carts, but you still need all the rest of your grounds staff. So not much of a reduction in costs.

Pro shop and 19th hole would have much more closely aligned reductions in revs and and COGS, but my sense is that both those areas are high gross margin areas, so losing them would make things even worse when you get to the bottom line.
 

jercra

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
2,230
Arvada, Co
OTOH, I don't think you can assume that the difficulty to get a tee time is indicative of their financial health:
  • they can't have as many tee times which will create greater scarcity while limiting revenues.
  • no cart rentals.
  • no pro shop sales.
  • no 19th hole sales.
My guess is that the combo of all those things is putting revenues at about 1/2 of normal. Some costs will be reduced (no F&B costs, no servers to hire), but that's a huge hit.
I take your point, but I'm not sure it's quite as extreme as half. At least here multiple courses have carts available for single riders (or 2 if same household) but the charge for the whole cart. I have no idea what percentage of sales come from the pro shop, but it can't be very high. Every place has 1 person working the bar/grill doing to go food/drink and it seems to be a pretty robust sales from observation only. Several courses here have beverage cart service as well. Out west at least, many courses also don't run F&B on their own. It's bid out to 3rd parties. I have no idea how that would impact things.

On the other side of that, the guys who run the Golfweek Am tour in Denver told me on Saturday that at least one course told them that if they had to close for even a week they would have gone out of business.
 

jercra

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
2,230
Arvada, Co
1/4 capacity of golfers?
So I'm going to use some simple rates, rounded for ease of math, but pretty close to the public courses near my place on the Cape.
Normal golfing:
  • $75/green fees. $20 cart rental. Not all golfers ride, let's say half do. So a foursome would be $340 gross for the golf only.
  • Then tee times are 6.5/hour (I think they do every 9 minutes), so that's $2,210/hour. Figure 10 hours of play in a day. THat's $22k/day.
Now in COVID golfing:
  • If you're only at 1/4 capacity of golfers (I would guess some places might get to half) and you can't rent any carts, you're down from 26 golfers and 6.5 carts per hour to 6.25 golfers and zero carts per hour. So that's $487.50/hour of $4875 per day.
That's a reduction in gross revs from golf of about 78%. On the golf side, you maybe are cutting one person per day from the pro shop, and you don't need anyone to maintain carts, but you still need all the rest of your grounds staff. So not much of a reduction in costs.

Pro shop and 19th hole would have much more closely aligned reductions in revs and and COGS, but my sense is that both those areas are high gross margin areas, so losing them would make things even worse when you get to the bottom line.
Actually, if you figure that the tee sheet was 70% full at 9 minute spacing and 90% full at 15 minute spacing and keep all of your other variables the same, the current golf revenue would be 77% of the normal golf revenue or a 23% reduction. I suspect tee sheets at public courses are normally nowhere near 70% full on most days, but I don't actually know so I picked a high number.
 

Light-Tower-Power

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
9,238
a) I wouldn't chance it
b) courses are saying IDs are checked on the first tee/check-in
c) if the state government sees an influx of MA plates in the parking lots of NH golf courses it might ruin it for all of us.

Baker has to get a clue eventually. I doubt it’ll be long.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,322
c) if the state government sees an influx of MA plates in the parking lots of NH golf courses it might ruin it for all of us.

Baker has to get a clue eventually. I doubt it’ll be long.
I agree on your point about ruining it for all of us. I'm not gonna break the rules that way.

I'm less convinced things will open up here soon though. We'll see.
 

Light-Tower-Power

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
9,238
I agree on your point about ruining it for all of us. I'm not gonna break the rules that way.

I'm less convinced things will open up here soon though. We'll see.
Trust me I feel your pain and I think it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm guessing the thinking is that NH courses can sustain themselves with NH residents only but the restaurant and retail industry needs all the help it can get which is why you're more than welcome to come up for dinner and a beer in two weeks. Either way, don't want to start anything that doesn't belong in this thread. Hang in there I have a feeling it won't be long.
 

TFP

Dope
Dope
Dec 10, 2007
18,322
Trust me I feel your pain and I think it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm guessing the thinking is that NH courses can sustain themselves with NH residents only but the restaurant and retail industry needs all the help it can get which is why you're more than welcome to come up for dinner and a beer in two weeks. Either way, don't want to start anything that doesn't belong in this thread. Hang in there I have a feeling it won't be long.
Apparently today Massachusetts updated it's "essential businesses" list. Car dealerships, florist shops, and bookstores are all considered essential and allowed to re-open ASAP. Yet golf remains closed. It's mind numbing.

 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
10,486
The Paris of the 80s
Apparently today Massachusetts updated it's "essential businesses" list. Car dealerships, florist shops, and bookstores are all considered essential and allowed to re-open ASAP. Yet golf remains closed. It's mind numbing.

Baker is personally against opening courses and you can hear it in his press conference comments over the past week. He can't contain his disgust for the question. It has nothing to do with safety, just that he doesn't like the optics while people are suffering and other businesses are shut down. However, if you assume that's true, I think this modest expansion of open business is actually good news. The state is budging on scope of the closure and while I don't think it was tenable for Baker to open courses first, if they open as part of a rollout then they're not the focus. It is, of course, obviously arbitrary florists and bookstores can open while golf courses are closed.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
18,643
Portsmouth, NH

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
11,304
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
1/4 capacity of golfers?
So I'm going to use some simple rates, rounded for ease of math, but pretty close to the public courses near my place on the Cape.
Normal golfing:
  • $75/green fees. $20 cart rental. Not all golfers ride, let's say half do. So a foursome would be $340 gross for the golf only.
  • Then tee times are 6.5/hour (I think they do every 9 minutes), so that's $2,210/hour. Figure 10 hours of play in a day. THat's $22k/day.
Now in COVID golfing:
  • If you're only at 1/4 capacity of golfers (I would guess some places might get to half) and you can't rent any carts, you're down from 26 golfers and 6.5 carts per hour to 6.25 golfers and zero carts per hour. So that's $487.50/hour of $4875 per day.
That's a reduction in gross revs from golf of about 78%. On the golf side, you maybe are cutting one person per day from the pro shop, and you don't need anyone to maintain carts, but you still need all the rest of your grounds staff. So not much of a reduction in costs.

Pro shop and 19th hole would have much more closely aligned reductions in revs and and COGS, but my sense is that both those areas are high gross margin areas, so losing them would make things even worse when you get to the bottom line.
1/4 capacity of staff

Edit: in the clubhouse specifically
 

thestardawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2005
550
Section 38, Row 13
In other news. International filed Chapter 11 yesterday. They owe 9 million to BOA, 10.4 million to mom and 9 million to Deposit members.

Welcome to the Residences at the Oaks and Pines.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
18,643
Portsmouth, NH
I dont think there's much the governor can do about it other than fine them 300 bucks a day. THey will make up that money in 15 minutes.
I'm sure he knows no-one in the health department, the liquor commission, the business license office, any other state departments governing the courses...etc. It's like kangaroo court, no biggie, just peel off a few hundo and tell the governor to pound sand.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
10,486
The Paris of the 80s
If had to wager who the towns old west Boylston and Paxton are going to back I’m pretty sure it will.be one of their biggest taxpayers over the governor.
In case anyone doesn't know the area, Boylston is blue but Paxton is purple, and next to red strongholds. Oakham, Rutland, Barre, Hubbardston etc. are very right leaning towns. Not a lot of people in any of them but they're a different place than the most of the rest of Mass.
 

thestardawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2005
550
Section 38, Row 13
I'd wager you know nothing about Massachusetts politics. These towns are going to allow the courses to open and what do you think the Governor will be able to do about this? Is he going to send out the National Guard to block the opening? Let's be serious for a moment.

All courses will be open within 10 days.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
18,643
Portsmouth, NH
I'd wager you know nothing about Massachusetts politics. These towns are going to allow the courses to open and what do you think the Governor will be able to do about this? Is he going to send out the National Guard to block the opening? Let's be serious for a moment.

All courses will be open within 10 days.
:fonz:
 

yeahlunchbox

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 21, 2008
394
Yes it is. Connecticut National, Keney Park, Topstone, Rolling Meadows, Cedar Knob have all gotten good reviews from friends/acquaintances of mine. Weekend Tee Times very difficult to come by though.
I can confirm on Connecticut National. My social club has our golf tournament there every year and it's a nice course that's always in good condition. New England Golf Guide gave them a four star rating in their 2018 book.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
10,486
The Paris of the 80s
In other news. International filed Chapter 11 yesterday. They owe 9 million to BOA, 10.4 million to mom and 9 million to Deposit members.

Welcome to the Residences at the Oaks and Pines.
In the T&G today: https://www.telegram.com/news/20200505/international-golf-club-in-bolton-files-for-bankruptcy-protection

The International Golf Club & Resort in Bolton filed for Chapter 11 on Monday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court District of Massachusetts.

According to the bankruptcy filing, the International and related entities listed assets of $10 million-$50 million and liabilities of $10 million to $50 million for 100-199 creditors.
Shit news for a few members here. Sorry guys.
 

thestardawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2005
550
Section 38, Row 13
Yeah. I read through the bankruptcy filings. 3 entities filed. Arklow- Owns the real estate. IGC-leases the golf course from Arklow. Weadly-Runs Fireplace room and food and beverage.

They were clear they were looking for a seller. It's a weird property. Land restrictions on the Oaks. I don't believe that restriction is on Pines, but all the infrastructure on the club is on the Pines. I suppose a buyer could build a new clubhouse on the site of the practice area and then lot off and sell the pines for housing, or see if the land restriction could be stripped in Chapter 11. My biggest fear is it turns into a 300 lot house project. After the property emerges from 11, theoretically it would be debt free. Mom's original 10 mill is gone, but the 9 million that is owed to BOA with mom's guarantee is the issue for the family. The bankruptcy Court is just looking for the highest bidder. The family may have been looking for a buyer to keep it golf, but the Court will sell to anyone, so if a developer shows up with enough money to satisfy the Court then it's bye bye International golf Resort, and I think that is unfortunately a likely scenario. Who during a COVID-19 crisis is going to come up with 9-10 million to buy the resort and keep it in its configuration? The numbers they submitted to the court for a bare bones crew to keep the course maintained along with paying taxes, insurance, membeership fees and utilities totals about 160K a month. I have to guess that with a full crew staffing restaurant and banquet the nut must be around 350K a month. I'm just not sure that's feasible in the current environment for any course operator to take that on.
 

Zomp

Dope
Dope
Aug 28, 2006
12,004
The Slums of Shaolin
After trying out the MG Golf glove the first few rounds, I bought 10 more today. Should be good for at least a year.

I've read there are some issues with durability, but after playing 54 holes or so and not seeing any wear and tear, at $6 its a steal.
 

FL4WL3SS

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
11,304
Andy Brickley's potty mouth
Yeah. I read through the bankruptcy filings. 3 entities filed. Arklow- Owns the real estate. IGC-leases the golf course from Arklow. Weadly-Runs Fireplace room and food and beverage.

They were clear they were looking for a seller. It's a weird property. Land restrictions on the Oaks. I don't believe that restriction is on Pines, but all the infrastructure on the club is on the Pines. I suppose a buyer could build a new clubhouse on the site of the practice area and then lot off and sell the pines for housing, or see if the land restriction could be stripped in Chapter 11. My biggest fear is it turns into a 300 lot house project. After the property emerges from 11, theoretically it would be debt free. Mom's original 10 mill is gone, but the 9 million that is owed to BOA with mom's guarantee is the issue for the family. The bankruptcy Court is just looking for the highest bidder. The family may have been looking for a buyer to keep it golf, but the Court will sell to anyone, so if a developer shows up with enough money to satisfy the Court then it's bye bye International golf Resort, and I think that is unfortunately a likely scenario. Who during a COVID-19 crisis is going to come up with 9-10 million to buy the resort and keep it in its configuration? The numbers they submitted to the court for a bare bones crew to keep the course maintained along with paying taxes, insurance, membeership fees and utilities totals about 160K a month. I have to guess that with a full crew staffing restaurant and banquet the nut must be around 350K a month. I'm just not sure that's feasible in the current environment for any course operator to take that on.
Best case scenario is one of the conglomerate groups to snatch it up. Arcis, Club Corp, etc

Probably won't happen, but it would be a great addition to one of those portfolios.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2006
13,264
Tuukka's refugee camp
After trying out the MG Golf glove the first few rounds, I bought 10 more today. Should be good for at least a year.

I've read there are some issues with durability, but after playing 54 holes or so and not seeing any wear and tear, at $6 its a steal.
My dad echoed the same thing, so I bought one as well. Haven't played a ton but it was comfortable and has held up as well as the more well known brands. Biggest issue is figuring out the fit without trying it on first but it's great.