The league just needs to release the tape. That’s the only way to really tell if this was b-roll, a camera just left on a tripod, or some information gathering scheme.
But they won’t.
But they won’t.
2020 Pats: Bengals Coach Implies Patriots Taping Play Signals
- Thread starter CaptainLaddie
- Start date
Between what Belichick has said -- about not allowing cameras even to be point toward the field and how they know the rules -- and what the Patriots have said, I have a feeling we won't like the answer with respect to what league policy actually is. And, as a matter of common sense, one would assume that after the league made a big deal out of spygate, the idea that you could effectively do what the Patriots had done so long as you did it from the right place would be a loophole they eventually would want to get rid of. All the evidence is pointing toward the idea that it is not permitted to do what the film crew did.
The independent contractor point is probably not that great for us either. The Patriots' statement says "our video crew, which included independent contractors." This is unlikely to have been unintentional. My inference is that there were actual W-2 Patriots or Club affiliated employees on site and that "we don't control our independent contractors" is really not going to carry the day in the court of public opinion or the league offices.
I think our best hope here is that the league accepts this was an inadvertent violation and imposes a monetary penalty. But if the tape really shows sideline signals, and that is a rules violation, and Patriots employees were involved in the collection, how does the league not do an investigation into what the ops knew or didn't know? I mean, if this were the Ravens that had done this, I think I'd be pretty firmly in the camp that said, "well, you can't just take their word for it."
Exactly. And if they don't release the footage and/or "stomp" on it like they did during Spygate, then this entire episode, fairly or unfairly, will be based on subjective takes. Same old same old.
Even if it's video of Cincy's coaches sending in plays - *which is part of what an advanced scout is looking at* and so exactly what B-roll film should be recording - that doesn't tell us whether the video is for the "Do your job" or part of an attempt to cheat. I mean, I am assuming that the film DOES show Cincy's coaches using hand signals. That doesn't really answer the question you posed above (though you didn't frame it as a question).
Some have said here that the NFL will “see how the wind blows” before coming down with anything. Here’s a FWIW: On First Take this morning, Stephen A said the Pats will get a slap on the wrist. Kellerman hemmed and hawed but saw worse. Third guy, whom I didn’t know, was like Kellerman. Stephen A is the top dog among those opinionated, I’m pretty sure.
If the camera incidentally catches signals from a tripod still location, it will possibly be obvious on video. If the camera was focusing on signals and appears to be documenting personnel or plays associated with those signals, we're absolutely and positively screwed. Even if you could make a case that "well, the documentary was going to be about how advanced scouts look at hand signals."
Right. An investigation should focus on whether this is a one-time thing this year with this crew, or whether they’ve been around other facilities doing the same thing. Choosing to use this method once, against the Bengals of all teams, would make no sense. I assume B roll footage would basically give you a first person view of what a scout is looking at, which in this case would be the sideline.
I think you might just have the wrong bad guy. The NFL has done nothing yet here, either. There's still time for them to screw it all up, but this is already becoming a megathread and there's been nothing but fan and media speculation so far. Those are the bad guys. Hell, we're the bad guys, too.
Man, I almost sound like I'm defending the NFL here. I'm totally not and I won't be shocked if they bungled their part again. But I feel like it's important to note that deflategate was out of control mega-viral before the NFL said much of anything. They still have a chance to not be a-holes about this whole thing.
Then again, the media is riffing on out if context leaked into in tweet form and they're still being quiet, so maybe they're just waiting for the perfect opportunity to suck, I dunno.
There are up to 45 seconds between plays, so eight minutes of footage would cover 6-8 plays factoring in for normal stoppages.
The retort being, "It was 'only' 8 minutes because the Bengals' staffer caught them." Which, of course, may be 100% true.
This is an excellent point and explains why the Bengals are so bad. They're hiding their hand signals behind their backs so that the opposing coaches don't see them, but the video production contractors could. Of course, it also effectively hid the signals from their own team...
nbcsports.com
"Will NFL punish the Patriots? Mike Florio, Chris Simms, and Peter King hotly debate what's next for the NFL and the Patriots after allegations of New England filming the Bengals' sidelines."
"Will NFL punish the Patriots? Mike Florio, Chris Simms, and Peter King hotly debate what's next for the NFL and the Patriots after allegations of New England filming the Bengals' sidelines."
Chris Simms, on the other hand, will likely call for the protection of America's children from this menace.
The press box is on the visitors side of the field. There's no magic camera angle that allows them to see the front of the Bengals bench. You can look at the photo from the press box on page four.
The number of plays that were filmed is kind of irrelevant, guys. “I only punched the victim three times”.
To me, it’s always been ESPN. There’s clearly some influence at Park Ave over there. Schefter going on TV to mitigate it, along with tempered reactions of Screamin A and Max, is hopefully a positive here.
Agreed.
Deflategate was a pivotal moment for my understanding of the media and people's interaction with it. We assume people want the truth and that's what the media delivers. People actually want their confirmation biases satisfied and, especially with click-based natutre of social media accelerated news, the media is just serving up the rage. Because Deflategate was so ridiculous and occurring in an "inconsequential" area of the culture (sports), everyone's tribalism and confirmation biases were fully transparent and it was all good fun. But if you apply this framing to the other sections of the newspaper, it's all the same.
Anyway, I fully this story is going to keep growing. It's absolutely perfect fodder the current media environment, as Deflategate was.
Schefter also went on ESPN and said that the league was having a hard time finding anyone to actually pin anything on during MisunderstoodPhysicsGate.
View: https://twitter.com/ZackCoxNESN/status/1204419409223262209
I don't know how you "prove" that, but it should be relatively easy to prove who the film crew worked for and what they say when they're talked to. Since they don't work for Patriots the have no real reason to be recalcitrant.
I don't know how you "prove" that, but it should be relatively easy to prove who the film crew worked for and what they say when they're talked to. Since they don't work for Patriots the have no real reason to be recalcitrant.
That's a very pragmatic take, but I hate it.
The issue should be about intent. Maybe that's too hard for the league. But if the video shows something that was out of the frame of the coaches tape, so what, if it wasn't intended to cheat. I'd like to think that intent will be fairly apparent from the tape itself not just on what the field of view of the camera lens was.
And who knows what the heck one can deduce from a tweet anyway but I guess if they are focused solely on figuring out whether there is a technical violation by comparing what was available and what was filmed, that's not really the precursor to calling us cheats in the draft pick sense. A fine for a technical violation would be fine with me. Even if it's a lot.
Exactly. If they have video of the field, but nobody uses it to try to gain a competitive advantage then what does it matter? It can be both a violation of league rules and not an intent to cheat.
It seems most of the recent f*ckups have been on the Kraft side of the organization. Not a great year for him
so only the home team needs to be notified when unusual people are allowed into the press box, but maybe that rule should be updated to include away team. that would have nipped this in the bud.
I agree the Pats acted pretty stupid here. Given their history, they should be dotting every i and crossing every t. But I mean isn't this also the exact things people see when they, you know, watch football? The tv account of the game shows this exact stuff every single game. Now if they are zooming in on certain things and then zooming out at key moments I am right there with you. But the accounts of what is actually on the tape could be spun to sound way worse than it is.
In two weeks, the popular version of the story will be that it was a mustachioed man in a black top hat and black over coat laughing maniacally as he pointed his camera directly at the Bengals' sideline. When asked about is suspicious behavior, he disappeared into a cloud of smoke, only leaving behind the burnt silhouette of the flying Elvis on the ground where he once stood.
I'll tell you this, I despise all the media hot-heads & click-chasers who is in high heaven resuscitating the cheatin'-Pats angle. That includes those who played their parts in the past, like Wickerstam, Chris Simms, and Mangini.
These half-wits have managed to tarnish the image of the greatest franchise I've had the pleasure of watching live. A hearty FU to all.
These half-wits have managed to tarnish the image of the greatest franchise I've had the pleasure of watching live. A hearty FU to all.
This bullshit is a large reason why I don't watch the NFL anymore, even if it did inspire my username and fantasy football team in 2002.
From that angle you could definitely see signals. Whether they're useful or not who knows. ESPN, The Athletic, and Yahoo have reported you can see signals, so maybe there was a magic camera.
The plays are radioed in. If there are any signals, they may have something to do with personnel groupings for the skill guys depending on the formation teams want to run. Without knowing the playcall, it's tough to do much with those. Even if this copy does show signals of some sorts(and they aren't plays), you should be able to see the coaches on the sideline from each angle of the all-22.
[B]Jeff Howe[/B]Verified account @jeffphowe
I asked an NFL coach who I can confidently say has no axe to grind against the Patriots: Coach said there’s a competitive advantage to gain for teams that still signal coverages, substitutions. The coach noted some teams still do signal coverages.
A likely possibility as to why the league hasn't said anything yet
[B] BenVolin[/B]Verified account @BenVolin 13m13 minutes ago
The 32 NFL owners are set to have their quarterly meetings in Dallas tomorrow. I imagine Goodell and a few owners will want to hear from Robert Kraft about this video incident
[B] BenVolin[/B]Verified account @BenVolin 13m13 minutes ago
The 32 NFL owners are set to have their quarterly meetings in Dallas tomorrow. I imagine Goodell and a few owners will want to hear from Robert Kraft about this video incident
If the Bengals are one of those teams, OK. In my experience being on football sidelines both at the college and NFL levels(albeit mine was before plays were radioed in) teams that signal plays or coverages in also tend to have multiple signal callers as to confuse the other team to what signal is the actual one. So if that is the case with Cincinnati and there's a potential competitive advantage to gain, they'd have to know which signal is the right one. This all comes down to one fact that we don't know: did the video crew tape the sidelines specifically for the football ops personnel/coaching staff to see and did they see it? There's a lot of jumping to conclusions both inside and outside of this thread.
Yes, but not in the way you think. One of these things is one knucklehead sending threatening DMs and texts. The other thing is an entire organization that, despite its brilliance on the field, manages to consistently trip over its dick when it comes to scandals and "integrity of the game" questions.
It is amusing that the Pats big 3 are all Trump guys - both camps are incredibly adept at creating reality TV-style drama.
PS - And I firmly believe that we (sports fans) should take the AB stuff more seriously than these scandals, but I don't believe we do at this point. That's messed up.
Last edited:
Kind of disappointed that this thread title isn't "Bengal-ghazi video investigation-- fake news or scandal?"
Or maybe they make signals with their arms out stretched or over their heads. Crazy, I know.
Of note: Super Bowl XLIX is the most-watched television broadcast in the history of the United States. Is it because the Seahawks were a massive national draw? Or was it because there was a massive, national circus-scandal involving the most hated team on earth that preceded the game? The NFL is definitely watching this space.
