2020 Pats: Bengals Coach Implies Patriots Taping Play Signals

BaseballJones

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Let's remember something about video stuff....

In 2006, the Patriots caught the Jets videotaping their sideline. They didn't make a federal case out of it, and the NFL did nothing. No discipline whatsoever.

And then in 2011, this guy was working with the Jets and got caught videotaping all sorts of things during a game, including the opposing sideline.

27496

NFL Network's Albert Breer quickly deemed the filming "well within the rules." Breer posted the specific rules to his Twitter timeline, which read, "Club video crews & video crews from television stations that produce and telecast club-licensed programming may also be permitted to have a camera on the sidelines to shoot footage for those club-licensed programs only." (from yourteamcheats.com)

So I just want to know why the Jets can be caught videotaping TWICE and have absolutely NO penalty assessed to them, while the Patriots get caught twice and will likely be penalized twice. Can anyone actually provide a logical explanation for this?
 
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It's mostly because the Jets suck, but probably also because the league office is full of Jets fans. (I'm not 100% sure of the latter, but that's what I've heard people say and post at times.)
 

BornToRun

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Let's remember something about video stuff....

In 2006, the Patriots caught the Jets videotaping their sideline. They didn't make a federal case out of it, and the NFL did nothing. No discipline whatsoever.

And then in 2011, this guy was working with the Jets and got caught videotaping all sorts of things during a game, including the opposing sideline.

View attachment 27496

NFL Network's Albert Breer quickly deemed the filming "well within the rules." Breer posted the specific rules to his Twitter timeline, which read, "Club video crews & video crews from television stations that produce and telecast club-licensed programming may also be permitted to have a camera on the sidelines to shoot footage for those club-licensed programs only." (from yourteamcheats.com)

So I just want to know why the Jets can be caught videotaping TWICE and have absolutely NO penalty assessed to them, while the Patriots get caught twice and will likely be penalized twice. Can anyone actually provide a logical explanation for this?
Jealousy
 

Helmet Head

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Berdard on the patriots post game show thinks Pats are going to get hammered by the league on this because the actual video the production crew was recording was tight on the Bengals sideline. Said he messaged people “around the league” and they agreed that the optics of this are bad , despite intent, and will likely end very poorly for the pats.
 

mauf

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Let's remember something about video stuff....

In 2006, the Patriots caught the Jets videotaping their sideline. They didn't make a federal case out of it, and the NFL did nothing. No discipline whatsoever.

And then in 2011, this guy was working with the Jets and got caught videotaping all sorts of things during a game, including the opposing sideline.

View attachment 27496

NFL Network's Albert Breer quickly deemed the filming "well within the rules." Breer posted the specific rules to his Twitter timeline, which read, "Club video crews & video crews from television stations that produce and telecast club-licensed programming may also be permitted to have a camera on the sidelines to shoot footage for those club-licensed programs only." (from yourteamcheats.com)

So I just want to know why the Jets can be caught videotaping TWICE and have absolutely NO penalty assessed to them, while the Patriots get caught twice and will likely be penalized twice. Can anyone actually provide a logical explanation for this?
There isn’t a flat-out ban on filming. But there are rules that must be followed.

Again, the Spygate filming occurred soon after a memo from the league office reminded all teams of those rules. That’s why the punishment handed down was unprecedented -- no competitive advantage was gained, but it was a deliberate violation of a rule that was designed to protect the integrity of competition. And the sense around the league was the Pats got off light, especially with regard to BB not being suspended. There’s a tendency around here to conflate Spygate and Deflategate, but there’s a huge difference between the two — and so it’s naive to think that other teams will simply accept the Patriots at their word that this latest violation of the filming rules was an honest mistake.

In that context, I think the lack of a swift decision is a good thing. If he’s going to give the Pats a slap on the wrist, he needs to be damn sure there isn’t another shoe to drop. On the other hand, as we learned bitterly a few years back, he doesn’t need any facts at all if his inclination is to drop the hammer.
 

mauf

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Berdard on the patriots post game show thinks Pats are going to get hammered by the league on this because the actual video the production crew was recording was tight on the Bengals sideline. Said he messaged people “around the league” and they agreed that the optics of this are bad , despite intent, and will likely end very poorly for the pats.
It’s not just “optics”; it calls into question the truthfulness of the Pats’ explanation.

I was initially of the opinion that people here were reacting, but that was on the assumption that the evidence would readily confirm the club’s explanation of what happened.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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The real victims here are the Patriots players. Whether this stuff penetrates the locker room and serves as a distraction is debatable, but the fact that this coach and owner continue to put the players in the position of defending their idiotic off the field actions is becoming reprehensible. This situation was completely avoidable just by using common sense, which the organization seems to lack outside of actual football.

They were stupid, they got caught, and they deserve the punishment. Zero sympathy from this fan. Keep your dick in your pants and cameras out of opposing stadiums. Make that the subject of your next documentary.
 

Salem's Lot

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The real victims here are the Patriots players. Whether this stuff penetrates the locker room and serves as a distraction is debatable, but the fact that this coach and owner continue to put the players in the position of defending their idiotic off the field actions is becoming reprehensible. This situation was completely avoidable just by using common sense, which the organization seems to lack outside of actual football.

They were stupid, they got caught, and they deserve the punishment. Zero sympathy from this fan. Keep your dick in your pants and cameras out of opposing stadiums. Make that the subject of your next documentary.
Do you seriously believe that the ownership and coaching staff ordered this? Come on, this is just more league witch hunt shit. They probably will get hammered because the other owners hate Kraft but this is all crap.
 

BornToRun

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The real victims here are the Patriots players. Whether this stuff penetrates the locker room and serves as a distraction is debatable, but the fact that this coach and owner continue to put the players in the position of defending their idiotic off the field actions is becoming reprehensible. This situation was completely avoidable just by using common sense, which the organization seems to lack outside of actual football.

They were stupid, they got caught, and they deserve the punishment. Zero sympathy from this fan. Keep your dick in your pants and cameras out of opposing stadiums. Make that the subject of your next documentary.
I’m sorry but what evidence is there to suggest that Bill has anything to do with this?

Edit: also, what Salem said.
 

DJnVa

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It’s not just “optics”; it calls into question the truthfulness of the Pats’ explanation.

I was initially of the opinion that people here were reacting, but that was on the assumption that the evidence would readily confirm the club’s explanation of what happened.
What part of their explanation doesn't do that?
 

ilol@u

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That video was a terrible look for the Patriots. Zooming in on the sidelines, and then following the defensive packages and substitutions onto the field proves this isn't just b-roll footage. 8 minutes is a really long time and the footage could have been longer if they weren't confronted. I once again want to ask individuals who are trying to minimize the situation -- why haven't other teams this season been caught doing this if this is so commonplace?

Love the success of the team, but Jesus. This season is not fun to follow at all. Fine the organization and take away another 1st rounder. Anything more is overkill.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Do I think Belichick ordered the code red? No. But have he and the organization created a culture of carelessness and circumventing league rules and policies with regards to their employees? Clearly, yes. For that, they should be punished.
 

mauf

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What part of their explanation doesn't do that?
This isn’t the sideline captured in the background while filming a scout watching the game. Rather, it’s footage that isn’t obviously needed for a DYJ film about an advance scout’s work. Worse, the fact that it was taken suggests a reckless disregard for league rules. If the Pats can’t prove they instructed the crew about what was and wasn’t allowed, they’re in a lot of trouble. Even if they can, I can’t imagine the violation won’t result in loss of a draft pick.
 

Deathofthebambino

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This isn’t the sideline captured in the background while filming a scout watching the game. Rather, it’s footage that isn’t obviously needed for a DYJ film about an advance scout’s work. Worse, the fact that it was taken suggests a reckless disregard for league rules. If the Pats can’t prove they instructed the crew about what was and wasn’t allowed, they’re in a lot of trouble. Even if they can, I can’t imagine the violation won’t result in loss of a draft pick.
I don't understand this? Of course, it's needed for a DYJ film about an advanced scout. What does a scout do? He looks at the sideline, and takes notes on personnel packages, substitutions, signals, etc. If I'm getting B roll footage on a documentary of what an advanced scout does, then I would think it would be showing the sideline he's looking at so we, the viewers, know what his job is.

They probably taped him and interviewed him and he said "I'm watching this and this, and that and this..." So, when the cameraman goes to get the footage, that's what he's looking for...

And again, this isn't football ops. This is a television show crew filming a documentary. If there is a link between this cameraman and producer and the football ops, then throw the book at them. That said, I think the NFL is going to throw the book at them anyway, because they're assholes. All of 'em. And it'll make the 7th Lombardi all that much sweeter.

Edit: Just saw that statement that was released by the producer. Sounds like what I just said.
 

Ralphwiggum

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It’s just a massive unforced error even if you accept their explanation at face value. It’s infuriating and they deserve another round of bullshit about spying. You just cannot allow something like this to happen.
 

RedOctober3829

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I’ve been saying it’s had nothing to do with football operations since the minute it came out. KSP and the football wing are two totally separate entities. I honestly don’t really care if the organization gets a penalty because the incident wasn’t anything intentionally done to gain a competitive advantage. Just pay a fine and move on. The video on Fox doesn’t really show anything that wasn’t reported what was on it despite Bedard’s attempts to make it more on the post game show. Zo was saying on the pregame that it would have been worse if it showed down/distance then back to sideline which I agree.
 

mauf

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I don't understand this? Of course, it's needed for a DYJ film about an advanced scout. What does a scout do? He looks at the sideline, and takes notes on personnel packages, substitutions, signals, etc. If I'm getting B roll footage on a documentary of what an advanced scout does, then I would think it would be showing the sideline he's looking at so we, the viewers, know what his job is.

They probably taped him and interviewed him and he said "I'm watching this and this, and that and this..." So, when the cameraman goes to get the footage, that's what he's looking for...
Seems like you’d be using film of the playing field for this purpose, or just pulling the right clips from the all-22 (assuming clubs have license rights to that footage). The scout might refer to something happening on the sideline a couple times, but that’s not where you’d expect his focus to be.


And again, this isn't football ops. This is a television show crew filming a documentary. If there is a link between this cameraman and producer and the football ops, then throw the book at them. That said, I think the NFL is going to throw the book at them anyway, because they're assholes. All of 'em. And it'll make the 7th Lombardi all that much sweeter.

Edit: Just saw that statement that was released by the producer. Sounds like what I just said.
My view of what happened is basically the same as yours. But leaving a camera trained on something that they we allowed to film suggests that either the Pats failed to instruct the crew about the restrictions on filming or the crew deliberately blew off those instructions. The Pats will face sanctions either way; those sanctions will be materially worse if it turns out that they failed to instruct the crew, as that suggests a level of willfulness (i.e., reckless disregard for the rules).
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Whether football ops is involved or not, doesn’t the NCAA bylaw of “institutional failure” kind of apply here? If Nick Saban didn’t know a booster was giving a recruit money, he’s still held accountable.
 

lexrageorge

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Whether football ops is involved or not, doesn’t the NCAA bylaw of “institutional failure” kind of apply here? If Nick Saban didn’t know a booster was giving a recruit money, he’s still held accountable.
No it doesn't.

Belichick has specific responsibilities; if he, nor his underlings did nothing wrong, the NFL has no basis for punishing him.

They could punish Kraft; they could punish the team. But they cannot punish the coach. And there is precedent; Belichick was not punished for Deflategate.

Also, intent does actually matter.

Finally, neutral zone infractions are against the rules. Throwing a helmet at a players head is against the rules. The punishment for both obviously differs.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Seems like you’d be using film of the playing field for this purpose, or just pulling the right clips from the all-22 (assuming clubs have license rights to that footage). The scout might refer to something happening on the sideline a couple times, but that’s not where you’d expect his focus to be.
That's not what an advanced scout does. They have the All-22 and the playing field at their disposal at any time. The playing field is nationally televised. The advanced scout is there to get information that isn't available in the All-22 or the national broadcast, which is specifically the sideline stuff, which can't be taped. That's why they have to send an advanced scout, because he can get information that can't be gleaned from the television footage or the All-22 film, which is perfectly legal. I'll bet the advanced scout spends very, very little time watching the actual play on the field, except to get formation information relative to the substitution patters.

Don't get me wrong, it was a complete failure by someone to not instruct the cameraman and producer that they couldn't film the sidelines, but this is pretty uncharted territory. You don't see camera crews in the press box from teams that aren't playing in the game, even if they are credentialed. This was a one-off television production, for a documentary series. Sure, someone should have relayed the rules to the guys, but to blame the football ops side for this seems like blaming the wrong folks. Fine Kraft and Co. 10 million dollars for all I care, but losing draft picks or suspending BB would be ridiculous, IMO, based on what we know.
 

tims4wins

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If there was truly nefarious intent, wouldn’t the Pats have planned this for the week before say the Baltimore or KC game to get footage of an actually good opponent? Just as with DFG, there is no logic here on the part of the accusers.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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18 years. David Mondillo has been working for the organization for 18 years. He was here for Spygate. And he didn’t know the rules and has no affiliation with Belichick? Come on. I’m not trying to troll or anything, but the whole operation and their explanation stinks.
 

hunter05

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18 years. David Mondillo has been working for the organization for 18 years. He was here for Spygate. And he didn’t know the rules and has no affiliation with Belichick? Come on.
Connect the dots for me then. Belichick is lying and this was some sort of spy operation that got busted filming the asses of Bengal's players?
 

lexrageorge

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18 years. David Mondillo has been working for the organization for 18 years. He was here for Spygate. And he didn’t know the rules and has no affiliation with Belichick? Come on. I’m not trying to troll or anything, but the whole operation and their explanation stinks.
If you're going to refute the team's explanation, you need to provide a more probable explanation. The idea that Belichick would send a film crew, have the crew identify themselves, and openly tape a sideline from the press box is ludicrous after 2007.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Connect the dots for me then. Belichick is lying and this was some sort of spy operation that got busted filming the asses of Bengal's players?
Not only that, but they cut the Browns in on the deal by asking them first, then did the nefarious deed in plain sight of everyone for...reasons?

If the goal is what everyone says it is, they could have accomplished it with an intern, a ticket to the game, and an iPhone. There's literally no reason to "spy" in that fashion. I still have yet to hear anyone provide a single one or a justification for why they would do this out in the open if the people involved knew it was illegal.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I don’t really think anything nefarious was going on but I have to say if I were not a fan of the team it’s a stretch for me to get there. The other explanation is just stunning stupidity which this organization is not know for. I am having a hard time figuring the whole thing out to be honest.
 

Harry Hooper

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It's just amazing how Pats folks having to pee keeps getting them in trouble.
 

Ed Hillel

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18 years. David Mondillo has been working for the organization for 18 years. He was here for Spygate. And he didn’t know the rules and has no affiliation with Belichick? Come on. I’m not trying to troll or anything, but the whole operation and their explanation stinks.
Has this happened all year then? Or did they just do it once to cheat against the Bengals?
 

McBride11

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Can someone point to me any signals or anything that was of value that the all 22 or TV couldn't see?
Ya me neither.
I guess the Bengal's coaches butts look good in khaki? Harbaugh would be jealous.

We have some Bengals security guy (who was taping for what reason?) that gets all over some camera guy.

Ohhh man you're so busted!!!
Uhhh my bad, delete it, I don't care it is worthless B roll.
Cheaters!!!! Too late pal!

I mean my god if this were a nefarious cheating scandal, WHY are they displaying it on a big screen TV in the press box???

Not saying RG and crew won't levy some punishment but this is entirely a trumped up joke of an accusation. A dude with a GoPro in the 500s gets better information.
 

BaseballJones

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That video was a terrible look for the Patriots. Zooming in on the sidelines, and then following the defensive packages and substitutions onto the field proves this isn't just b-roll footage. 8 minutes is a really long time and the footage could have been longer if they weren't confronted. I once again want to ask individuals who are trying to minimize the situation -- why haven't other teams this season been caught doing this if this is so commonplace?

Love the success of the team, but Jesus. This season is not fun to follow at all. Fine the organization and take away another 1st rounder. Anything more is overkill.
On the contrary the footage is exactly what you’d expect if you were shooting B-roll stuff.
 

mulluysavage

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I meant the reporting. I think the distinction between freelance camera guy and in-house producer is kind of important. And from the reporting I’m really not sure who’s who.
We don't know that there are any freelance camera guys or producers at all in this video. We don't see anyone we can identify, just hear voices and the shot is of a monitor with an image of the Bengals sideline. That conversation can be overdubbed.
 

Average Game James

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So, for everyone saying the video “looks bad”... what I don’t understand is, why would the Pats go this route if intentionally trying to cheat? There are no close up shots and it’s literally nothing that couldn’t be gained with an iPhone and a decent seat in the stadium. You can use it to fit a narrative, I suppose, but only if you have a predetermined point of view and suspend anything above 3rd grade logic.
 

8slim

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The NFL is the most over officiated and over regulated league on the planet. Who the hell cares if someone records the sideline? It’s the definition of a rule in search of a problem.

*edit*. But it is a rule, so just dock the Pats a 4th round pick and be done with it. Of course Goodell will drag this out for months because he’s an asshole.
 

BernieRicoBoomer

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So, for everyone saying the video “looks bad”... what I don’t understand is, why would the Pats go this route if intentionally trying to cheat? There are no close up shots and it’s literally nothing that couldn’t be gained with an iPhone and a decent seat in the stadium. You can use it to fit a narrative, I suppose, but only if you have a predetermined point of view and suspend anything above 3rd grade logic.
Yeah, check out this shot I got from behind the Steelers bench...got video too. Even got Tyler from Wicked Tuna in the shot.
IMG_0994.jpeg
 

Ed Hillel

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The NFL is the most over officiated and over regulated league on the planet. Who the hell cares if someone records the sideline? It’s the definition of a rule in search of a problem.

*edit*. But it is a rule, so just dock the Pats a 4th round pick and be done with it. Of course Goodell will drag this out for months because he’s an asshole.
I enjoyed when the NFL cameras zoomed in on Steve Belichick today when he was giving signals. Again.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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So, for everyone saying the video “looks bad”... what I don’t understand is, why would the Pats go this route if intentionally trying to cheat? There are no close up shots and it’s literally nothing that couldn’t be gained with an iPhone and a decent seat in the stadium. You can use it to fit a narrative, I suppose, but only if you have a predetermined point of view and suspend anything above 3rd grade logic.
The problem is that this whole thing gives Patriots detractors more ammo. The facts don't really matter in this instance. Logic doesn't really matter either. What matters is how hard other teams push the league to come down on the Patriots.
 

tims4wins

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So, for everyone saying the video “looks bad”... what I don’t understand is, why would the Pats go this route if intentionally trying to cheat? There are no close up shots and it’s literally nothing that couldn’t be gained with an iPhone and a decent seat in the stadium. You can use it to fit a narrative, I suppose, but only if you have a predetermined point of view and suspend anything above 3rd grade logic.
This could have been written verbatim about DFG.

The NFL is the most over officiated and over regulated league on the planet. Who the hell cares if someone records the sideline? It’s the definition of a rule in search of a problem.

*edit*. But it is a rule, so just dock the Pats a 4th round pick and be done with it. Of course Goodell will drag this out for months because he’s an asshole.
This too.
 

8slim

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I enjoyed when the NFL cameras zoomed in on Steve Belichick today when he was giving signals. Again.
Every friggin’ game on TV features shots of the coaches calling in plays. And, needless to say, there are 60-80K people in the stands with high def cameras in their pockets at every game. The entire thing is idiotic and the NFL is run by concussed morons.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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What matters is how hard other teams push the league to come down on the Patriots.
I think it's pretty obvious this happened. Then tenor of the story from reliable insiders went from the NFL is inclined to believe the Pats side of things and they want to get an investigation wrapped up in a week to what we have now. Pretty grim. They don't have peak Brady to fall back on any longer, so more draft picks getting taken away will be seriously destructive.
 
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Someone else mentioned this earlier and I thought it was a great point. The cameraman may have sounded sleazy, but he was probably thinking about losing his job right before the holidays and was trying to make that threat go away.

Strahan can pound sand. JJ had a good take on it. Anyone that does football for a living can look at the video and realize it's nothing. Heavy lies the crown, or some shit like that. This is more annoying than anything.
 

Ed Hillel

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This is from Howe, and should be case closed from an objective standpoint, but of course won’t matter now that the NFL has blown it up:

One other thing that might be of importance before we get into this: The Patriots have not sent any type of media or video crew to any other game not involving the Patriots this season. Not Kansas City, not Houston, not Baltimore. The only game they received credentials for was the one between Cincinnati and Cleveland.
They’ve played 3 other first year head coaches, too (Gase, Kitchens, Flores).

So they sent a crew to spy for one game this season, against the 1-12 Bengals, and did it in front of a bunch of NFL and Bengals employees, when they could have gotten more from someone discretely in the stands with an iphone.

Ok.
 

RedOctober3829

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When people say this video "looks bad" what do you actually mean by that? If it's being recorded and not being seen by people who actually know what to look for, who is it bad for? Based on what we know and now have seen, it's not anything more than an oversight by a producer. The jump to conclusions that the Patriots cheated, the stain on Belichick's legacy, etc. were so fast because non-Patriots fans are desperate for the things they want to believe to be true. They look past the actual situation and are speaking the cheating aspect into existence like it's actual fact. When people say "the Patriots cheated" it automatically assumes that it was a Patriots video staffer taking specific photos or video and relaying it back for game plan use. While that's great for sports radio fodder, it's not actually what happened. The whole sports media industry turns into Fox News when it comes to the Patriots.
 

tims4wins

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When people say this video "looks bad" what do you actually mean by that? If it's being recorded and not being seen by people who actually know what to look for, who is it bad for? Based on what we know and now have seen, it's not anything more than an oversight by a producer. The jump to conclusions that the Patriots cheated, the stain on Belichick's legacy, etc. were so fast because non-Patriots fans are desperate for the things they want to believe to be true. They look past the actual situation and are speaking the cheating aspect into existence like it's actual fact. When people say "the Patriots cheated" it automatically assumes that it was a Patriots video staffer taking specific photos or video and relaying it back for game plan use. While that's great for sports radio fodder, it's not actually what happened. The whole sports media industry turns into Fox News when it comes to the Patriots.
It’s important to remember that sports media is purely for entertainment purposes. It’s not serious journalism. Everything is about generating clicks.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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When people say this video "looks bad" what do you actually mean by that? If it's being recorded and not being seen by people who actually know what to look for, who is it bad for? Based on what we know and now have seen, it's not anything more than an oversight by a producer. The jump to conclusions that the Patriots cheated, the stain on Belichick's legacy, etc. were so fast because non-Patriots fans are desperate for the things they want to believe to be true. They look past the actual situation and are speaking the cheating aspect into existence like it's actual fact. When people say "the Patriots cheated" it automatically assumes that it was a Patriots video staffer taking specific photos or video and relaying it back for game plan use. While that's great for sports radio fodder, it's not actually what happened. The whole sports media industry turns into Fox News when it comes to the Patriots.
You are largely correct but none of this matters. Facts and rules are secondary.

The Patriots, deserved or not, have a reputation for cheating. They got caught again as far as their detractors and casual NFL fans are considered. Not much unites NFL fans but one thing that does is the Cheatriots getting nabbed with their slimy hands in the cookie jar again.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Seems like you’d be using film of the playing field for this purpose, or just pulling the right clips from the all-22 (assuming clubs have license rights to that footage). The scout might refer to something happening on the sideline a couple times, but that’s not where you’d expect his focus to be.

My view of what happened is basically the same as yours. But leaving a camera trained on something that they we allowed to film suggests that either the Pats failed to instruct the crew about the restrictions on filming or the crew deliberately blew off those instructions. The Pats will face sanctions either way; those sanctions will be materially worse if it turns out that they failed to instruct the crew, as that suggests a level of willfulness (i.e., reckless disregard for the rules).
Is there such an affirmative duty for the team in the league bylaws? I have not seen such a thing cited and you're treating it as if it exists. Did I miss it? If there is, they indeed would be in a lot of trouble, but I had not understood that to exist.

It will be very hard to show the legal standard of reckless disregard here based on what's been reported to date.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
13,661
Waltham, MA
Surprised that a few people here think the video makes things look worse. It’s exsctly how I imagined it would have played out after hearing their excuse. From the characteristics of the B roll footage to the camera man trying to salvage his job.