2020 Pats: Bengals Coach Implies Patriots Taping Play Signals

E5 Yaz

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All that matters to Pats fans is that there are no suspensions or docking of draft picks.
Maybe to you, but not to me, and I've been a Patriots fan since they drafted Plunkett. If given the choice of winning half the Super Bowls they've won, without any of this other nonsense from Spygate on ever happening, and having things the way they are now ... I' would think a moment before taking the three Super Bowls
 

lexrageorge

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Maybe to you, but not to me, and I've been a Patriots fan since they drafted Plunkett. If given the choice of winning half the Super Bowls they've won, without any of this other nonsense from Spygate on ever happening, and having things the way they are now ... I' would think a moment before taking the three Super Bowls
I'd say you're in a tiny minority of Pats fans, then.
 

NickEsasky

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Yeah, this will all blow over and the Patriots and their fans will have the last laugh
Hey maybe you should wait to see what actually happens before taking victory laps around the people who don't think anything will happen. No one's right yet. Any NFL talking head who only seeks attention is going to be firing up the hot take machine on this. It has nothing to do with what the league may or may not do and that is the ultimate arbitrator of how quickly this blows over.
 

BigJimEd

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Assuming things happened as they seem,
Belichick must be pretty pissed off. I know I would be.
He has enough on his plate with football side of things, he shouldn't have to worry about and deal with this stuff.
Yet he had to answer questions and it his reputation that gets called into question.
 

E5 Yaz

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Hey maybe you should wait to see what actually happens before taking victory laps around the people who don't think anything will happen. No one's right yet. Any NFL talking head who only seeks attention is going to be firing up the hot take machine on this. It has nothing to do with what the league may or may not do and that is the ultimate arbitrator of how quickly this blows over.
Missed the sarcasm smilie, did you?
 

Jimbodandy

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While this is a great idea (and I voted), I think it best to look forward in general.

We cannot unring this bell. The toothpaste has left the barn. So...I intend to enjoy however many playoff and SB runs we have left and not worry about the complaints and Bill Nye fuckheads. Sans time machine, it cannot be remedied. Bill could have a reference letter from Mother Theresa and the accountants that guard the NBA draft lottery, and shitbirds all over the country would shout cheater at him, so fuck it. Fuck it.
 

djbayko

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Assuming things happened as they seem,
Belichick must be pretty pissed off. I know I would be.
He has enough on his plate with football side of things, he shouldn't have to worry about and deal with this stuff.
Yet he had to answer questions and it his reputation that gets called into question.
Hey, at least he doesn’t have to conduct any science experiments this time around..
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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Maybe to you, but not to me, and I've been a Patriots fan since they drafted Plunkett. If given the choice of winning half the Super Bowls they've won, without any of this other nonsense from Spygate on ever happening, and having things the way they are now ... I' would think a moment before taking the three Super Bowls
To each their own, but if it came out that BB drowns puppies and Brady eats fetuses for breakfast, I'd say a prayer for the lost souls and then pop in the DVDs for all six.
 

RetractableRoof

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I think because there was no involvement (other than the on-camera presence of the advance scout) on the part of the football operations (and think the NFL will agree), so it would be appropriate there should be no impact on the football operations in any punishment handed out.

If it were me, I'd ban the Patriots business side of the house from filming any materials offsite of Patriot property or specifically in any other teams property/facility for a year. Essentially, if the business side of the house can't get their ducks in a row (independent contractors or not), then stay your butt home and try to make your extra shekels without leaving your own yard. You punish the arm of the team that made the mistake, which is fair - you limit the Kraft Inc.'s opportunity to make the bonus money off their success without being draconian. I know this doesn't fit the m.o. of the league, but in this case I'm guessing they limit their punishment to the business operations.
 

Super Nomario

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If it were me, I'd ban the Patriots business side of the house from filming any materials offsite of Patriot property or specifically in any other teams property/facility for a year. Essentially, if the business side of the house can't get their ducks in a row (independent contractors or not), then stay your butt home and try to make your extra shekels without leaving your own yard. You punish the arm of the team that made the mistake, which is fair - you limit the Kraft Inc.'s opportunity to make the bonus money off their success without being draconian. I know this doesn't fit the m.o. of the league, but in this case I'm guessing they limit their punishment to the business operations.
I don't think the league wants to do this; I think the league likes these sorts of media products. If the NFL brings the hammer on the Patriots, some teams might decide it's not worth the risk to film these mini-docs. A stern warning and a token fine seems like the most appropriate punishment.
 

RetractableRoof

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I don't think the league wants to do this; I think the league likes these sorts of media products. If the NFL brings the hammer on the Patriots, some teams might decide it's not worth the risk to film these mini-docs. A stern warning and a token fine seems like the most appropriate punishment.
I agree, which is why the punishment shouldn't harm the football side. As for the offsite ban I mentioned - I'm operating under the assumption the league will still want it's pound of flesh from the Patriots. I'd be thrilled if your proposed punishment is accurate.
 

steveluck7

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I agree, which is why the punishment shouldn't harm the football side. As for the offsite ban I mentioned - I'm operating under the assumption the league will still want it's pound of flesh from the Patriots. I'd be thrilled if your proposed punishment is accurate.
I was thinking along these lines today. A fine, for sure and some kind of time linked filming restriction (no “preferred” sideline access in Gillette for 6 months) plus some sort of procedure put in place to ensure all employees and independent contractors are aware of the rules about where and whom you are allowed to film
 

Marciano490

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Hey maybe you should wait to see what actually happens before taking victory laps around the people who don't think anything will happen. No one's right yet. Any NFL talking head who only seeks attention is going to be firing up the hot take machine on this. It has nothing to do with what the league may or may not do and that is the ultimate arbitrator of how quickly this blows over.
Excellent tagline for the situation.
 

djbayko

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I was thinking along these lines today. A fine, for sure and some kind of time linked filming restriction (no “preferred” sideline access in Gillette for 6 months) plus some sort of procedure put in place to ensure all employees and independent contractors are aware of the rules about where and whom you are allowed to film
It's going to suck when we can't film on the sidelines during our next "fuck you" Super Bowl win.
 

RedOctober3829

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Back in 2011, one of the "Jets TV"(same thing as Kraft Sports Production) cameramen on the sideline was caught filming across the field possibly to the Patriots' sideline. The Jets said they followed the necessary rules, but it looked shady because the rule on sideline access for team-owned camera people was that they were only supposed to shoot footage on the Jets sideline only. They escaped without any penalty.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/11/photo-of-jets-employee-with-sideline-camera-creates-stir/
 

BigJimEd

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This seems like it’s taking far too long to investigate. Setting up a Friday night news dump, to minimize the hot take outrage over a light penalty? Only half facetious.
It takes Roger time to see which sassy the wind is blowing.
 

lexrageorge

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This seems like it’s taking far too long to investigate. Setting up a Friday night news dump, to minimize the hot take outrage over a light penalty? Only half facetious.
Well, you know, these are busy people, with the league meetings going on and all that. It will be extraordinarily difficult to squeeze in an extra 8 minutes into Roger's schedule so he can view the video. Perhaps there may be some time between lunch and recess, but we'll see.
 

Carmine Hose

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I would think if the Patriots are fined, Kraft will sue the film team (if they are independent contractors) since they committed the violation. he won't get anything but it would be symbolic.
 

joe dokes

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I would think if the Patriots are fined, Kraft will sue the film team (if they are independent contractors) since they committed the violation. he won't get anything but it would be symbolic.
Given that that would probably involve parsing out how much of the fine is for the violation itself and how much because this is not the team's first go-round, I think that would be idiotic on Kraft's part.
 

Harry Hooper

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Back in 2011, one of the "Jets TV"(same thing as Kraft Sports Production) cameramen on the sideline was caught filming across the field possibly to the Patriots' sideline. The Jets said they followed the necessary rules, but it looked shady because the rule on sideline access for team-owned camera people was that they were only supposed to shoot footage on the Jets sideline only. They escaped without any penalty.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/11/photo-of-jets-employee-with-sideline-camera-creates-stir/
Yes, and back in 2009 a Jets equipment person get punished for doctoring the kicker's footballs in an illegal fashion. No players were punished at all.
 

Cotillion

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And then there are the Seahawks multiple violations of practice rules and injury report... token fines, some lost offseason practices, maybe a low level draft pick at one point.
the Colts entire fiasco with the injury report and Andrew Luck (and now Vinatieri this year)… were they even punished at all for any of it. I can't recall.
and the list goes on.

The Pats are the only team that really get the book thrown at them harshly and consistently for any misstep (even inadvertent) cause it's seen as a pattern of behavior (note the patterns I already mentioned above that are ignored). Saints and the fairly bogus Bountygate is the only other one to get handled fairly harshly, but it's been treated as a one off.
 

SamCassellsStones

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The falcons noise-gate too, and the chargers glove situation. The list goes on.

Apples and oranges comparison, but the lack of any repercussions for the Tyreek Hill situation still baffles be, both from an NFL punishment standpoint and a social consciousness standpoint. Why did that just go away? Why didn’t the NFL, or society, really care? Do we really need picture/video do know what kids broken arm might have looked like?
 

Cotillion

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The falcons noise-gate too, and the chargers glove situation. The list goes on.

Apples and oranges comparison, but the lack of any repercussions for the Tyreek Hill situation still baffles be, both from an NFL punishment standpoint and a social consciousness standpoint. Why did that just go away? Why didn’t the NFL, or society, really care? Do we really need picture/video do know what kids broken arm might have looked like?
The Seahawks one is more orange to orange cause it was multiple repeated offenses (smaller punishment) after being warned off to stop doing it that finally got them a low round draft pick penalty.

Same is now true of the Colts. They escaped punishment after manipulating the injury report with Andrew Luck. Warned off to not do it again. Yet it is now clear that Vinatieri is the same situation.

Yet they will not be punished again even though they've now committed the grave sin of repeat offender and ignoring warnings (often noted as the reason why the Pats needed to be treated extra harshly for the violations).
 

bakahump

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From the get go the Pats have "Admitted it and taken full responsibility". Even though everyone has been sure to point out that it was a independent 3rd party who did it without the pats knowledge, encouragement or consent.

I bet this helps with the situation and Goodell lets them off easy.
 

RedOctober3829

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This is great. Baseball HOF voter Rob Parker is on WEEI and says if he had a football HOF vote he would not vote for Belichick for the HOF if he was found involved in this but he admits he votes for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.
 

54thMA

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This seems like it’s taking far too long to investigate. Setting up a Friday night news dump, to minimize the hot take outrage over a light penalty? Only half facetious.

Maybe it's just me, but the tone and tenor of Goodell's comments did not give me a feeling this is coming to a conclusion anytime soon.

I'm probably going to get murdered here for throwing this out there, but here goes; what's to prevent him from bringing those video personnel in to the NFL offices and ask them point blank "Did anyone in the organization or more specifically, the coaching staff instruct you to film the Bengals sideline and coaches?"...…......Just ask the video personnel if they were instructed to do so and if so, by whom? How hard is that?

Sorry, I have a real bad feeling about this one.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Maybe it's just me, but the tone and tenor of Goodell's comments did not give me a feeling this is coming to a conclusion anytime soon.

I'm probably going to get murdered here for throwing this out there, but here goes; what's to prevent him from bringing those video personnel in to the NFL offices and ask them point blank "Did anyone in the organization or more specifically, the coaching staff instruct you to film the Bengals sideline and coaches?"...…......Just ask the video personnel if they were instructed to do so and if so, by whom? How hard is that?

Sorry, I have a real bad feeling about this one.
If you were interested in the truth, you'd get a real investigator to do a real investigation and that would take some time. You wouldn't just assume you can tell whether people are telling the truth by looking into their eyes. And you'd want to see if there is any evidence. If the truth is what I was after I'd start by making sure I had a pretty solid understanding of what the Do Your Job program was, who was involved, how its structure is aligned with the team, what documents or manuals it uses, and how it creates its product. Then I'd talk to whomever there is at the Club that is in charge and that interfaces with DYJ. Then I'd look at tape. Not just the tape in question, but whatever tape I could get my hands on from DYJ. I'd want to see both the finished product and any b-roll or cutting room footage from prior episodes. I'd start with a year and then decide if I needed more.

At this point I would probably have a list of of additional people I'd want to talk to about DYJ and its relationship to the Patriots, and I'd probably have other areas of follow up too. I'd track down those leads. If I had questions about the footage that I saw or any documents I saw that could only be answered by DYJ folks who were not on site or involved in the Browns/Bengals game, I'd talk to them. I'd sit with a video machine if I had to and ask any questions that presented themselves. Then I would talk to the team's operations people. I would start with the HC and the coordinators. Then I'd decide if I need to talk to anyone else. Maybe a player or two. Definitely the scout. Only then would I interview the people involved in the Browns/Bengals game and incident. I'd find out everything I could. I'd ask specific questions, including any particular questions that the footage raised. Then I would loop back to anyone I needed to close any loose ends.

This is what a real investigation would look like. And I'd do it all even if after 10 minutes I thought I was fairly convinced of what the answer was.

If I wanted to be able to write a report that said that the Patriots got no operational advantage and were unaware of the taping, I would do the investigation much more quickly. Same if I wanted to show that the Patriots knew or should have known, or somehow otherwise were responsible for, the crew. And I'd do what Ted Wells did. I would start from the beginning making my investigation technique match the conclusion I wanted to draw.

I don't think the NFL actually knows how to do investigations. Maybe they are getting a little better on sexual misconduct investigations by hiring real professionals. But, the bottom line is that the NFL has to make a choice here. Either it must simply decide that it doesn't really care what the full facts are and that the basic facts are enough to do what they are going to do. (Highly likely. Probably not bad for the Patriots, given how the wind is blowing but who the fuck knows.) Or they should do it correctly. Doing it correctly takes time,. On the facts as we know them, doing it correctly seems like it would be good for the Patriots if the league avoids Ted Wellsing it up.
 

Jimbodandy

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This is great. Baseball HOF voter Rob Parker is on WEEI and says if he had a football HOF vote he would not vote for Belichick for the HOF if he was found involved in this but he admits he votes for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.
Rob Parker has been a shithead for a long time. This isn't news.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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If you were interested in the truth, you'd get a real investigator to do a real investigation and that would take some time. You wouldn't just assume you can tell whether people are telling the truth by looking into their eyes. And you'd want to see if there is any evidence. If the truth is what I was after I'd start by making sure I had a pretty solid understanding of what the Do Your Job program was, who was involved, how its structure is aligned with the team, what documents or manuals it uses, and how it creates its product. Then I'd talk to whomever there is at the Club that is in charge and that interfaces with DYJ. Then I'd look at tape. Not just the tape in question, but whatever tape I could get my hands on from DYJ. I'd want to see both the finished product and any b-roll or cutting room footage from prior episodes. I'd start with a year and then decide if I needed more.

At this point I would probably have a list of of additional people I'd want to talk to about DYJ and its relationship to the Patriots, and I'd probably have other areas of follow up too. I'd track down those leads. If I had questions about the footage that I saw or any documents I saw that could only be answered by DYJ folks who were not on site or involved in the Browns/Bengals game, I'd talk to them. I'd sit with a video machine if I had to and ask any questions that presented themselves. Then I would talk to the team's operations people. I would start with the HC and the coordinators. Then I'd decide if I need to talk to anyone else. Maybe a player or two. Definitely the scout. Only then would I interview the people involved in the Browns/Bengals game and incident. I'd find out everything I could. I'd ask specific questions, including any particular questions that the footage raised. Then I would loop back to anyone I needed to close any loose ends.

This is what a real investigation would look like. And I'd do it all even if after 10 minutes I thought I was fairly convinced of what the answer was.

If I wanted to be able to write a report that said that the Patriots got no operational advantage and were unaware of the taping, I would do the investigation much more quickly. Same if I wanted to show that the Patriots knew or should have known, or somehow otherwise were responsible for, the crew. And I'd do what Ted Wells did. I would start from the beginning making my investigation technique match the conclusion I wanted to draw.

I don't think the NFL actually knows how to do investigations. Maybe they are getting a little better on sexual misconduct investigations by hiring real professionals. But, the bottom line is that the NFL has to make a choice here. Either it must simply decide that it doesn't really care what the full facts are and that the basic facts are enough to do what they are going to do. (Highly likely. Probably not bad for the Patriots, given how the wind is blowing but who the fuck knows.) Or they should do it correctly. Doing it correctly takes time,. On the facts as we know them, doing it correctly seems like it would be good for the Patriots if the league avoids Ted Wellsing it up.
You’ve put far too much thought into your hypothetical...
 

lexrageorge

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If you were interested in the truth, you'd get a real investigator to do a real investigation and that would take some time. You wouldn't just assume you can tell whether people are telling the truth by looking into their eyes. And you'd want to see if there is any evidence. If the truth is what I was after I'd start by making sure I had a pretty solid understanding of what the Do Your Job program was, who was involved, how its structure is aligned with the team, what documents or manuals it uses, and how it creates its product. Then I'd talk to whomever there is at the Club that is in charge and that interfaces with DYJ. Then I'd look at tape. Not just the tape in question, but whatever tape I could get my hands on from DYJ. I'd want to see both the finished product and any b-roll or cutting room footage from prior episodes. I'd start with a year and then decide if I needed more.

At this point I would probably have a list of of additional people I'd want to talk to about DYJ and its relationship to the Patriots, and I'd probably have other areas of follow up too. I'd track down those leads. If I had questions about the footage that I saw or any documents I saw that could only be answered by DYJ folks who were not on site or involved in the Browns/Bengals game, I'd talk to them. I'd sit with a video machine if I had to and ask any questions that presented themselves. Then I would talk to the team's operations people. I would start with the HC and the coordinators. Then I'd decide if I need to talk to anyone else. Maybe a player or two. Definitely the scout. Only then would I interview the people involved in the Browns/Bengals game and incident. I'd find out everything I could. I'd ask specific questions, including any particular questions that the footage raised. Then I would loop back to anyone I needed to close any loose ends.

This is what a real investigation would look like. And I'd do it all even if after 10 minutes I thought I was fairly convinced of what the answer was.

If I wanted to be able to write a report that said that the Patriots got no operational advantage and were unaware of the taping, I would do the investigation much more quickly. Same if I wanted to show that the Patriots knew or should have known, or somehow otherwise were responsible for, the crew. And I'd do what Ted Wells did. I would start from the beginning making my investigation technique match the conclusion I wanted to draw.

I don't think the NFL actually knows how to do investigations. Maybe they are getting a little better on sexual misconduct investigations by hiring real professionals. But, the bottom line is that the NFL has to make a choice here. Either it must simply decide that it doesn't really care what the full facts are and that the basic facts are enough to do what they are going to do. (Highly likely. Probably not bad for the Patriots, given how the wind is blowing but who the fuck knows.) Or they should do it correctly. Doing it correctly takes time,. On the facts as we know them, doing it correctly seems like it would be good for the Patriots if the league avoids Ted Wellsing it up.
Not sure I follow this line of thinking at all.

This situation seems very simple: a couple of outside contractors didn't know the rules. And there is a short segment of b-roll footage to review. It really shouldn't take long at all for a cursory investigation to see if the stories add up. And if they do, there is likely no need for any further investigation. No need to look at old footage, etc.

The NFL is not an investigative organization. Nor should it become one. Nor is it obligated to waste resources on one if the facts don't warrant it.

Now, if there were inconsistencies in the explanations that did not make sense, or if the sideline footage seemed to be deliberately focusing on play sheets and coaches discussions and similar items, then I would agree additional investigation would be warranted, and should be done correctly.

Honestly don't know exactly why Roger is so far taking his time. It could be that this is not a huge priority for him right now. It could be that he's trying to mediate between Kraft and Mike Brown and possibly other owners while he's meeting with them.
 

DourDoerr

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Well, the bad calls from Sunday's game were wiped away. Any sympathy they may have engendered for the team was overwhelmed by the newest Patriots' "outrage."
 

Harry Hooper

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The fact that a violation of the filming rules took place is not in dispute. However, by all accounts to date this wasn't an issue of filming in locker rooms or other "no access" areas where cameras don't usually go. Before spending six or seven figures on an investigation, how about looking at the film to see if what was captured was any different from what the drunk guy in section 209, Row 8, Seat 3 could have taken in, not to mention the millions watching the broadcast?
 

DJnVa

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Howe had a bit more info tonight. Said crew initially sat beside scout but moved around because there were open seats up front. Scout could not see from his angle what crew was filming.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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The NFL is not an investigative organization. Nor should it become one. Nor is it obligated to waste resources on one if the facts don't warrant it.
I know it's opaque, but this is my point. Of course it's not. What it has done is the worst possible combination. If you're not an investigative organization, don't pretend to be one. Just err on the side of what I'll call "not dirty thinking" unless the facts are obviously to the contrary.

The NFL tends to err on the side of dirty thinking. At least sometimes. They let themselves be convinced bad shit happened and then try to justify it with investigative mumbo jumbo. And they've put themselves in a position with spygate, bounty, deflate, Zeke Elliott where now it's expected that they'll act this way. They've elevated this mythical concept that all their teams are dirty cheaters to a science that only they can be the vanguard of. But they are not equipped to have this outlook. And they are also inconsistent.

The other three leagues have figured this out. The NFL hasn't. If you want to err on the side of dirty thinking, then do your investigation and do it correctly. If not, play the ball, live and let live, and move the fuck on.