2020 Pats: Kraft One-Ups Brady’s Departure

Ralphwiggum

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If the other owners are making the decision on Kraft, and Goodell isn't, I'm annoyed in all directions. (In other words, I don't know that I'd want Goodell to be making the decision, but it seems dysfunctional and stupid for him NOT to make it so egomaniacal billionaires can try to exact revenge on Kraft just because they can't get it done.) I hate this humiliation of a league and refuse to stop watching.
This is perfect.
 

Rovin Romine

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I had the opportunity this past weekend to chat further with my acquaintance in the massage business. She again said there is very little trafficking and the girls know what they are getting into. They do it for the money to escape poverty and poor living conditions. After a few years, assuming they minimize expenses, they are very wealthy compared to their peers back in China or South Korea. Some return to their country of origin and live very well. She said the biggest problem is they pay five figures to brokers to get them into the US legally with proper papers, licenses, etc. Many incur debt to the brokers which can take years to repay. She reiterated the women sleep in the spas to save money so they can pay their immigration broker debt or simply to keep expenses low.

Still not terribly reassuring nor very savory but a bit less harsh than forced slavery of some kind, which I am sure also happens in the massage business just not with the frequency often implied by law enforcement, AGs, DAs, etc.
FWIW, "knowing what you are getting into" or "personally finding it a better alternative" in no way changes the nature of the crime.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0787/Sections/0787.06.html
 

Myt1

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One of the largest suspected trafficking victims is finger nail technicians. The linked article connects the activity in nail salons to massage establishments suggesting the same criminals use the nail salons to launder money coming out of the massage businesses. It quotes a source with knowledge of the business as stating it takes approximately six nail salons to launder money for one massage place actively engaging in prostitution. It explains why there are so many nail salons around.

I had the opportunity this past weekend to chat further with my acquaintance in the massage business. She again said there is very little trafficking and the girls know what they are getting into. They do it for the money to escape poverty and poor living conditions. After a few years, assuming they minimize expenses, they are very wealthy compared to their peers back in China or South Korea. Some return to their country of origin and live very well. She said the biggest problem is they pay five figures to brokers to get them into the US legally with proper papers, licenses, etc. Many incur debt to the brokers which can take years to repay. She reiterated the women sleep in the spas to save money so they can pay their immigration broker debt or simply to keep expenses low.

Still not terribly reassuring nor very savory but a bit less harsh than forced slavery of some kind, which I am sure also happens in the massage business just not with the frequency often implied by law enforcement, AGs, DAs, etc.
Yeah. Ask her what happens if they don’t pay their broker back and then tell me that this isn’t human trafficking. Then we can start a thread about how breaking legs to settle gambling debts is just alternative performance of a contract.
 

InstaFace

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FWIW, "knowing what you are getting into" or "personally finding it a better alternative" in no way changes the nature of the crime.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0787/Sections/0787.06.html
Based on my understanding, shared by LoweTek's relationships in the business, every single plank of the linked definition of "coercion" would fail to describe the present situation. Likewise, that the definition of "human trafficking" includes an explicit plank of "...for the purpose of exploitation of that person" is a big piece at issue, because if you're free to leave and have a number of plausible alternatives for gainful employment, and choose to stay because the money is good, it'd be real hard for me to see that there's any layman's-definition "Exploitation" happening.

I didn't mean they "know what they're getting into" in the sense of "sure I'll be enslaved for a few years but eventually they'll start paying me well". I meant that it's a normal international-labor-migration situation, no different than (say) software engineers coming here for better pay for X years, except that the work they're being employed for is at least partly malum prohibitum.

And I'm posting about this because focus on the non-coercive, non-exploitative sides of the industry takes resources and attention away from the legitimately horrifying parts that are coercive and exploitative (and malum-in-se). My company, among various other activities relating to linking diverse datasets, helps with AML compliance for the financial industry, and the second most common crime category (after drugs) for Anti Money-Laundering is human trafficking. Cases like this pop up in the data all the time, and deserve the full weight of the law, and there are always >10x as many happening as there are resources to pursue them. So seeing prurient finger-waggers spending time on this Orchids of Asia stuff, just because there's articles to be written and ads to be sold, kinda pisses me off, because their true concern is getting eyeballs rather than helping the women.

You know the whole bit from Terry Pratchett about "you know what sin is, don't you? Treating people as things. Lot of people will tell you it's more complicated than that, but it ain't"? That's my litmus test here. I don't think the women Kraft was seeking services from were being "treated as things", any more than run-of-the-mill massage therapists or chiropractors or anyone else who works with their hands on other people are.
 

Myt1

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I’m certain that, absent payment, the brokers would just sue for non-performance, like a company hiring a software engineer would.
 

LoweTek

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Guys, don't get me wrong here. I'm just offering a first hand perspective I happen to have access to. I am not supporting or advocating a certain conclusion here. I'm not defending anyone. I only thought the perspective would be of interest in the conversation.

The impression I got was the perspective of the woman I know is the women who come forward for this activity are desperately seeking a better life than they have in these countries and oftentimes they get it for what they believe consciously is a reasonable exchange and are quite willing participants.

I'm certainly not arguing it's right or reasonable, just real.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I think you’re a tad naive on it. It to be repetitive, but it’s all well and good that you know someone who runs one - that doesn’t mean she’s being truthful about committing a pretty heinous crime nor that she speaks for herself (assuming she is being genuine).
 

InstaFace

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I’m certain that, absent payment, the brokers would just sue for non-performance, like a company hiring a software engineer would.
If there are immigration brokers here who are helping these women do an end-run around the immigration system in exchange for a sizable gray- or black-market payment, then I give your objection considerable weight. However, it was my impression - based solely on seeing no reported facts to the contrary, which admittedly is thin - that these women either came here on a tourist visa that they overstayed, or on a work visa for nail or massage work, the remit for which they clearly expanded beyond legal bounds, and that it's not the kind of immigration for which you'd normally see brokers needed to bribe the right people at CBP, or other shit that tends to create the kind of people who break knees and rearrange living rooms.

Happy to learn otherwise, since you seem so certain.
 

ifmanis5

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Kraft also waives his arraignment rights.

Emily Riemer‏ @EmilyWCVB 22s23 seconds ago
RIGHT NOW: Lawyers for Robert Kraft filed a document in court today reaffirming his not guilty plea and asking the judge to schedule a jury trial in his case. Also, waived his right to an arraignment. Kraft is charged with soliciting prostitution. #WCVB

WBZ | CBS Boston News‏Verified account @wbz 1m1 minute ago
#BREAKING: Attorneys for Robert Kraft, waive arraignment on his behalf, pleading not guilty to all charges in prostitution sting, requesting jury trial.

https://www.wcvb.com/article/robert-kraft-requests-jury-trial-in-florida-prostitution-case/26949784?src=app
WEST PALM BEACH, FL. —

Lawyers for New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft on Tuesday filed a document reaffirming his plea of not guilty and asking the judge to schedule a jury trial for the case.

Kraft's attorneys also waived his right to an arraignment, the formal court hearing in which the charges against a defendant are read.
 

Myt1

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Thank you for the Polaris link. I was ignorant of this, and now will learn more. Danke.
You’re welcome. I’ll add the usual caveat that they’re advocates, with all that entails. But they’re also pointed at this stuff in a way that is useful to those of us who aren’t.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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I understand there's some large measure of gamesmanship here, but is it wise for Kraft to even head-fake toward a jury trail IN MIAMI?

Edit clarity
 
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YTF

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I understand there's some large measure of gamesmanship here, but is it wise for Kraft to even head-fake toward a jury trail IN MIAMI?

Edit clarity
As a follow up question, is there any advantage at all to asking for a trial and then claiming that Kraft is unable to get a fair trial in Miami or that the jury pool is tainted due to the locale and exposure of the case?
 

joe dokes

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As a follow up question, is there any advantage at all to asking for a trial and then claiming that Kraft is unable to get a fair trial in Miami or that the jury pool is tainted due to the locale and exposure of the case?
A trial wont be in Miami.
In Palm Beach County, there's a not-insignificant chance there'll be at least one juror who can sympathize with an old wealthy guy , even if this one owns the Patriots.
There probably wont be a trial at all.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/03/27/court-order-in-kraft-case-did-not-expressly-allow-video-recording/

When submitting the request they requested the ability to monitor and record. In the order, however, they were only given authority to monitor. Kraft's attorneys will argue that they did not have authorization to record in the spa.
If successful, that means the recording cant be used as evidence. But Officer Friendly can testify about what he saw when he was watching it live, IF he or anyone else was. OTOH--I think this is a difference without a legal distinction and he motion to suppress on this ground will fail.
 
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PedroKsBambino

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An argument only a lawyer could love---but also the essence of criminal defense is identfiying and exploiting these kinds of nuances and gaps.
 

nighthob

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A trial wont be in Miami.
In Palm Beach County, there's a not-insignificant chance there'll be at least one juror who can sympathize with an old wealthy guy , even if this one owns the Patriots.
Heck, down here in the PBC there’s a not-insignificant chance that there’ll be at least one juror that’s an avid Patriots fan. Unless they can invent a pretext for barring anyone that lives east of 95 from serving on the jury.
 

Van Everyman

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To be clear, I shared it because I thought it was bizarre as hell. The amount of ink spilled on reading the body language of a hotel lobby conversation between a Pats beat writer and the owner’s son was insane.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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If there are immigration brokers here who are helping these women do an end-run around the immigration system in exchange for a sizable gray- or black-market payment, then I give your objection considerable weight. However, it was my impression - based solely on seeing no reported facts to the contrary, which admittedly is thin - that these women either came here on a tourist visa that they overstayed, or on a work visa for nail or massage work, the remit for which they clearly expanded beyond legal bounds, and that it's not the kind of immigration for which you'd normally see brokers needed to bribe the right people at CBP, or other shit that tends to create the kind of people who break knees and rearrange living rooms.

Happy to learn otherwise, since you seem so certain.
Here's a 2014 Urban Institute report that did a comprehensive study of labor trafficking in the US. http://apps.urban.org/features/us-labor-trafficking/
 

InstaFace

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To be clear, I shared it because I thought it was bizarre as hell. The amount of ink spilled on reading the body language of a hotel lobby conversation between a Pats beat writer and the owner’s son was insane.
It needed a "waste of everyone's time" warning.

Sure, half of us would still read it anyway, but then we'd have no one to blame but ourselves.
 

soxhop411

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If this goes to trial the prosecution is looking to find witnesses to testify against Kraft (obviously)

With defense attorneys challenging key pieces of evidence in the misdemeanor prostitution charges against Robert Kraft, law enforcement sources familiar with the case have told Yahoo Sports the prosecution is seeking to bolster its case with possible eyewitness cooperation against the New England Patriots owner.

The sources declined to say if the prosecution’s efforts are in response to a recent motion filed by Kraft’s legal team that is seeking to suppress police surveillance from inside the Orchids of Asia Day Spa, as well as evidence collected during a traffic stop following Kraft’s visit to the establishment. However, the sources said the prosecution was continuing to develop information that could be introduced against Kraft in a jury trial, including potential eyewitness testimony in the event other evidence is suppressed.
https://sports.yahoo.com/in-robert-kraft-prostitution-case-possible-eyewitness-could-go-against-patriots-owner-162458676.html
 

Ale Xander

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djbayko

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Hundreds?
how many times do you think he’s done that?

Or do you mean just witnessing this particular instance?
I'm not sure how witnesses to other instances (I assume you mean the service providers) would be relevant to this case. If they had that, it would be separate charges, not evidence of this particular crime he's charged with. Outside of the surveillance video, the only witnesses to the exchange were in that room.
 
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Deathofthebambino

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I've been absent for a while, and I have no idea if it's been discussed in this thread, but the avenue I have heard that the defense is going to lay out is that the entire arrest was faulty. If you remember, once the men left the spa, they were subsequently pulled over somewhere else, probably for a very minor traffic violation, and then arrested and charged with solicitation.

The problem for the prosecution is Kraft wasn't driving. My understanding is that he was in the back seat of a limo, and when they pulled the car over, they asked for his identification, which isn't necessary for a routine traffic stop. If the arrest is tossed...... This will settle before reaching trial. Apparently, Kraft's defense team is made up of over a dozen lawyers, one from each potential county that the case could have been heard and/or depending on which Judge may be assigned. They aren't declining the plea lightly.
 

pappymojo

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I thought they were pulled over the first time for a traffic violation to establish identity. Then arrested when they went back. I could be wrong though.
This is true. I think Death's post was less-than-well-worded but was attempting to say the same. The question is, if Kraft wasn't driving, and the car was pulled over for a traffic violation, why was he, as a passenger, asked for his driver's license? The police, I'm sure, will argue that they asked Kraft for his license and he could have refused but he didn't.
 

joe dokes

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This is true. I think Death's post was less-than-well-worded but was attempting to say the same. The question is, if Kraft wasn't driving, and the car was pulled over for a traffic violation, why was he, as a passenger, asked for his driver's license? The police, I'm sure, will argue that they asked Kraft for his license and he could have refused but he didn't.
Or...
"Hey, you're Robert Kraft, the guy that owns the Patriots."
"Yes I am, would you like an autograph or picture, officer?"
 

Marciano490

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This is true. I think Death's post was less-than-well-worded but was attempting to say the same. The question is, if Kraft wasn't driving, and the car was pulled over for a traffic violation, why was he, as a passenger, asked for his driver's license? The police, I'm sure, will argue that they asked Kraft for his license and he could have refused but he didn't.
Why does this matter though? It’s not like the tapes in the spa were fruit of an illegal search or any evidence besides perhaps identity was established by the stop.
 

DJnVa

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Fake bomb threat?

Robert Kraft’s legal team is seeking to suppress footage of the New England Patriots owner allegedly receiving sexual favors in a Florida prostitution sting, claiming it was obtained after police called in a fake bomb threat to install cameras.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I mean, sure, maybe he walks away from this without the misdemeanor charge sticking but the fact remains that he paid for a hand job in a strip mall spa. Personally I don't really care all that much, but lots of other people do and beating the charge because the video gets suppressed or the arrest is deemed invalid isn't going to change that. The only way this makes sense to me is that he believes that avoiding the criminal charge is key to avoiding some kind of disproportionate punishment from the league. Fighting it this way just keeps it in the news longer, and if he beats it the story just becomes how rich guys who can afford good lawyers can get away with anything. I am already cringing at the thought of a press conference or a statement from Kraft claiming vindication if the charges are dropped.
 

Cellar-Door

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If they had a warrant, almost any ruse to get them out to do the install would be kosher under the 4th Am.
Yeah the real challenge is the sneak and peek warrant under the Patriot act. Seems like the cops may have significantly overstated their reason for suspicion of human trafficking. If the warrant gets tossed Kraft and the rest are going to walk.