2021-22 NBA Off-season Thread

the moops

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More like 2a or 2b.
At worst a 2A or 2B. More likely a clear # 2 than Brown, IMO. SGA just put up an incredible age 22 season. Not Jayson Tatum like, but most assuredly way better than 22 year old Jaylen Brown.

Brown - age 22, 13 pts, 34% from three, 4 rebounds, 1.5 assists
SGA - age 22, 24 pts, 42% from three, 5 rebounds, 6 assists
 

JM3

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Now we just need to find a magical 3 or 4 way trade that gets us SGA without giving up Brown...
 

benhogan

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Now we just need to find a magical 3 or 4 way trade that gets us SGA without giving up Brown...
Hogan top 10 summer wish list, while retaining Brown, in descending order:
1. Beal
2. SGA
3. Dejounte Murray
4. Derrick White
5. Delon Wright
6. Larry Nance
7. Kyle Andersen
8. Satoransky
9. Bullock
10. Quentin Grimes @ 45
 

Euclis20

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SGA would sure be a nice fit (pretty much any star would fit, the benefit of having two wings as your best players), but there isn't any conceivable way to get him without giving up Brown. As long as we're wishing for young stars on the right timeline as Tatum/Brown, might as well wish that Donovan Mitchell gets tired of disappointing in the playoffs and living in SLC and forces a move to be with some good friends in Boston.
 

JM3

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SGA would sure be a nice fit (pretty much any star would fit, the benefit of having two wings as your best players), but there isn't any conceivable way to get him without giving up Brown. As long as we're wishing for young stars on the right timeline as Tatum/Brown, might as well wish that Donovan Mitchell gets tired of disappointing in the playoffs and living in SLC and forces a move to be with some good friends in Boston.
May be a hot take - but I'd rather have SGA.
 

Euclis20

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May be a hot take - but I'd rather have SGA.
I think I would too (I've definitely had enough of small guards that get picked on defensively in the playoffs when it matters), but I could conceive of a scenario in which Mitchell forces his way out of Utah and wants to play with Brown and Tatum. I can't see that with SGA, so the latter is completely unobtainable without Brown while Mitchell is merely unbelievably unlikely.
 

JM3

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I think I would too (I've definitely had enough of small guards that get picked on defensively in the playoffs when it matters), but I could conceive of a scenario in which Mitchell forces his way out of Utah and wants to play with Brown and Tatum. I can't see that with SGA, so the latter is completely unobtainable without Brown while Mitchell is merely unbelievably unlikely.
Let's make this happen... we'll need 4 teams because we need to get the Thunder Cade, we need to get the Warriors win now pieces & we need to intrigue the Pistons into doing this...

Nvm, I need to add the Grizzlies.

Pistons

Give Up
2021 #1 overall
Mason Plumlee $8.1m

Get
2021 #6 overall
2021 #10 overall
2021 #16 overall
2022 Clippers 1st
2023 Celtics 1st
2024 Celtics pick swap
2025 Celtics 1st
Timelord $3.7m
Nesmith $3.6m
PP $2.1m

Why they do it
Pistons are more than 1 player away. They aren't in love with Cade & this is a huge haul of stuff for them to be able to take shots with & see what they can accomplish.

Stars aren't coming to Detroit to join anyone so creating a more egalitarian contender like their last one makes sense & this asset haul helps them build & get there.

This might be a little light, but I don't feel like trying to rope a 6th team in or figure out how to move a Wiseman domino right now...

Celtics

Give up
Smart $13.8m
Timelord $3.7m
Nesmith $3.6m
PP $2.1m
2022 pick swap
2023 1st (unprotected)
2024 pick swap
2025 1st (unprotected)

Get
SGA $5.5m
Bledsoe $18.1m

Why they do it
Going all in on a big 3 of Tatum/Brown/SGA. Can still resign Fournier & add Horford & have a really nice, really switchable crunch time 5. Gives up depth & all future picks, but consolidating into SGA is a great result (& it's the whole premise of this hypothetical). Bledsoe is a bad contract, but he's a real NBA player who is fine as the 3rd guard & he only has a couple million of guaranteed $ after this year.

Warriors

Give up
2021 #7 overall
Wiggins $31.6m

Get
Smart $13.8m
SloMo $9.9m
Melton $8.8m
2022 Celtics pick swap

Why they do it
The Warriors dream is to use 7 & 14 to get a star, but they aren't getting a star with their package & they need more guys & this gives them 3 legit NBA players while allowing them to move off Wiggins' bad contract, & they're the only team in this trade that is likely to be able to use the Celtics pick swap this upcoming season.

Thunder

Give up:
2021 #6 overall
2021 #16 overall
2022 Clippers 1st
SGA $5.5m

Get:
2021 #1 overall
Miles Plumlee $8.1m

Why they do it
To get Cade or whoever they have their heart set on. Apparently they already offered #6 + SGA, & this is just sweetening the pot a bit. They need to start consolidating assets.

Grizzlies

Give up
2021 #10 overall
SloMo $9.9m
Melton $8.8m
Bledsoe $18.1m

Get
2021 #7 overall
Wiggins $31.6m

Why they do it
They've been looking to move up further, so here they are. SloMo is expiring, Melton is a bit redundant & Bledsoe is a bad contract. Wiggins is also a bad contract, but what do the Grizzlies care? They get to lock up their guy at 7.
 
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JM3

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I tried to approximately match salaries because I didn't feel like getting into trade exceptions, cap room blah blah blah, I didn't get into the Thunder's infinite supply of 2nd rounders, & I didn't move Wiseman & make this one step bigger, but I'm pretty sure I've wasted enough time on it on my phone for 1 evening.
 

Jimbodandy

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I tried to approximately match salaries because I didn't feel like getting into trade exceptions, cap room blah blah blah, I didn't get into the Thunder's infinite supply of 2nd rounders, & I didn't move Wiseman & make this one step bigger, but I'm pretty sure I've wasted enough time on it on my phone for 1 evening.
The most impressive part of this whole thing is that you did this on your phone.

[/oldguy]
 

benhogan

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The most impressive part of this whole thing is that you did this on your phone.

[/oldguy]
Yea, I'm extremely jealous of those phone skills considering I make a half dozen types typos from my laptop on every post.

I'll riff on JM3's extravaganza with my own fake trade, except this time, move Jaylen Brown :eek:
While adding Beal (demands trade/not signing unless it's with the Tatums) + SGA
This would retain TL, who should be regular season load managed going forward + retains Nesmith or Langford

Celtics add
Bradley Beal
SGA

Wizards add
2 Celtic 1sts
2 Celtic pick swaps
Smart
Tristan Thompson
Doumbouya
McGruder
2 OKC 1sts (lottery protected)

OKC add
Cade
Langford or Nesmith
Cory Joseph
PP

Pistons add
OKC #6
Jaylen Brown

All-Star Jaylen Brown would have to be considered more valuable, to the Pistons, than SGA.
 
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AMS25

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Now we just need to find a magical 3 or 4 way trade that gets us SGA without giving up Brown...
The creativity on this thread re: SGA trades is off-the-charts. Here in OKC, few people believe that SGA is going anywhere (despite various rumors).
 
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JM3

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The most impressive part of this whole thing is that you did this on your phone.

[/oldguy]
I think you misspelled "only". All my posts are on my phone for work reasons.

The creativity on this thread re: SGA trades if off-the-charts. Here in OKC, few people believe that SGA is going anywhere (despite various rumors).
Listening to a Ringer pod right now & KOC pitched:

Thunder get #1

Pistons get #4, SGA, '23 Heat 1st, '24 Clippers 1st

Raptors get #6 & #16
 

moondog80

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I think you misspelled "only". All my posts are on my phone for work reasons.



Listening to a Ringer pod right now & KOC pitched:

Thunder get #1

Pistons get #4, SGA, '23 Heat 1st, '24 Clippers 1st

Raptors get #6 & #16

I must be really overrating SGA, because I think he's just a valuable as the #1 pick all by himself. Shot 50.8% from the field and 41.8% from 3 on high volume (23.7 PPG), and he's a decent rebounder (4.7 RPG). Is already decent on D and has the length to become very good. What am I missing?
 

benhogan

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I must be really overrating SGA, because I think he's just a valuable as the #1 pick all by himself. Shot 50.8% from the field and 41.8% from 3 on high volume (23.7 PPG), and he's a decent rebounder (4.7 RPG). Is already decent on D and has the length to become very good. What am I missing?
SGA will be on a max soon. Cade is dirt cheap for numerous years then will be on a max. Lots of years of control while OKC is several years away from competing for a playoff spot.

Cade has alpha potential, while SGA is a great 2nd or 3rd wheel.

That's my guess
 

benhogan

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The creativity on this thread re: SGA trades if off-the-charts. Here in OKC, few people believe that SGA is going anywhere (despite various rumors).
The odds are he isn't going anywhere.

We're just bored waiting for the C's & Sox to do something.

There are only so many Yam Madar puff pieces you can read ;)
 

cheech13

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I must be really overrating SGA, because I think he's just a valuable as the #1 pick all by himself. Shot 50.8% from the field and 41.8% from 3 on high volume (23.7 PPG), and he's a decent rebounder (4.7 RPG). Is already decent on D and has the length to become very good. What am I missing?
He’s three years in, hasn’t made an All-Star team or All-NBA team, and put up his best numbers on a bad team. Even if you really like him he doesn’t profile as a guy who is going to be a top ten player in the league, and that’s what you want with the #1 overall pick.
 

moondog80

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SGA will be on a max soon. Cade is dirt cheap for numerous years then will be on a max. Lots of years of control while OKC is several years away from competing for a playoff spot.

Cade has alpha potential, while SGA is a great 2nd or 3rd wheel.

But it's not like OKC is teeming with options better than SGA to give max money. And the #1 pick isn't chump change (about 10 mil a year before they too become more expensive). If they make the trade straight up, what can they do with the difference --overpay for Evan Fournier? Yay.

Figure every team as 3 max slots on their roster -- that's 90 total, but the number of guys who are truly worth that is much lower. And the number that are available to a team like OKC is even lower. I agree that Cade does have a higher upside, but you'd better be really sure he's going to come close to it, because his floor is way below the current level SGA is at.
 

JM3

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More from that Ringer pod...

KOC pitches Jaylen/TL/RL/2023 1st/2027 1st for Beal.

JKM says "no".

I wouldn't do that deal for Beal unless Tatum said he was sitting out forever if we didn't...
 

HomeRunBaker

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More from that Ringer pod...

KOC pitches Jaylen/TL/RL/2023 1st/2027 1st for Beal.

JKM says "no".

I wouldn't do that deal for Beal unless Tatum said he was sitting out forever if we didn't...
Stuff like this makes you question even “respected” guys like KOC. Holy Jesus.
 

JM3

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But it's not like OKC is teeming with options better than SGA to give max money. And the #1 pick isn't chump change (about 10 mil a year before they too become more expensive). If they make the trade straight up, what can they do with the difference --overpay for Evan Fournier? Yay.

Figure every team as 3 max slots on their roster -- that's 90 total, but the number of guys who are truly worth that is much lower. And the number that are available to a team like OKC is even lower. I agree that Cade does have a higher upside, but you'd better be really sure he's going to come close to it, because his floor is way below the current level SGA is at.
If you think Cade has a decent shot of being a top 5 player in the league, giving up 6 in a 5 player draft to toggle from SGA to Cade is a fine upside play. It also helps a ton with the tank this year. SGA isn't going to want to sit out forever & no matter how good Cade will become, he won't be as good as SGA this year.

Staying cheap for longer also allows them to take on more bad contracts & the associated positive assets that come with them.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Stuff like this makes you question even “respected” guys like KOC. Holy Jesus.
Agreed. It would be one thing to see some random internet C's fan suggest this and then add in Smart just to get him out of town or something. But if KOC was serious about this one...
 

moondog80

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If you think Cade has a decent shot of being a top 5 player in the league, giving up 6 in a 5 player draft to toggle from SGA to Cade is a fine upside play. It also helps a ton with the tank this year. SGA isn't going to want to sit out forever & no matter how good Cade will become, he won't be as good as SGA this year.

Staying cheap for longer also allows them to take on more bad contracts & the associated positive assets that come with them.
What is the realistic shot of Cade being a top 5 player in the league?
 

JM3

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What is the realistic shot of Cade being a top 5 player in the league?
Imo? Super low. I don't think he's athletic enough & I think his basketball IQ is overrated.

Even if he ends up being an SGA-level player, though, the trade would probably be not disastrous for the Thunder. He also has the local connection so he may be more likely to stick around forever.
 

moondog80

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Imo? Super low. I don't think he's athletic enough & I think his basketball IQ is overrated.

Of course it's super low. Top 5 is a crazy high standard. Not being as good as SGA is a much bigger piece of the outcome pie.

Now, he probably doesn't have to be top 5 to better than what SGA will end up being. And that's why I think their values are even-ish. But there's no way I'd give up 3 other first rounders, including #6 this year, to replace a guy who *might* end up being about 10 slots better in the player rankings.
 

CreedBratton

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What is the realistic shot of Cade being a top 5 player in the league?
I actually think it’s pretty high. He is gonna be incredible and is 100% the real deal.

Also, athleticism means nothing in the NBA anymore considering two of the top 4 best players, which includes an MVP, in the league have zero athleticism combined. Give me guys with the smarts and ability to make everyone react to them over freak athleticism any day.
 

Kliq

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I actually think it’s pretty high. He is gonna be incredible and is 100% the real deal.

Also, athleticism means nothing in the NBA anymore considering two of the top 4 best players, which includes an MVP, in the league have zero athleticism combined. Give me guys with the smarts and ability to make everyone react to them over freak athleticism any day.
I'm pretty high on Cade too; I don't think its out of the question for him to be a Top 5 player; he has all the skills you would want out of a top star in the modern NBA. Very good shooter, great playmaker, multiple-position defender, has an alpha mentality. I think his ceiling is something like 90% of Luka on offense with near All-NBA level defense.
 

the moops

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I actually think it’s pretty high. He is gonna be incredible and is 100% the real deal.

Also, athleticism means nothing in the NBA anymore considering two of the top 4 best players, which includes an MVP, in the league have zero athleticism combined. Give me guys with the smarts and ability to make everyone react to them over freak athleticism any day.
In the past 20 years, there have only been what, two #1 picks that were a top 5 player in the NBA for any sustained stretch? Lebron and AD. Cade is nowhere near as high of a prospect as either of those guys, so I woudl suspect his chances of becoming a top 5 player are miniscule
 

moondog80

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Out of the 21 guys who have picked 1st in the 2000s, I count 8 who hit a level higher than what SGA is now (and SGA is only 22). Griffin, Rose, Kyrie, Zion, LeBron, Wall, Davis, Towns. Can't-miss guys miss all the time.
 

JM3

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That's why i mentioned his BBIQ being overrated.

Jokic & Doncic have basically always had 2/1 or better ast/turnover rates & seem to see the game steps in advance.

Cade wasn't even 1/1 & I just don't see him as that type of player. Mobley is much more that type of player.

Cade has a super high floor, but he has a ton of work to do to be elite.

This is the wrong thread for a straight up Cade convo, though, & we'll see how things go for him & the Pistons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I must be really overrating SGA, because I think he's just a valuable as the #1 pick all by himself. Shot 50.8% from the field and 41.8% from 3 on high volume (23.7 PPG), and he's a decent rebounder (4.7 RPG). Is already decent on D and has the length to become very good. What am I missing?
You are just underrating Cade.

SGA has top 20 potential. He hasn't shown anything to make us believe he has top 10 potential.

They should still be looking to build around SGA, though. They should be in a position to add some players in a year or two and I don't see SGA moving somewhere else before then. Very few deals make any type of sense, and you have to squint at those.
 

JM3

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In the past 20 years, there have only been what, two #1 picks that were a top 5 player in the NBA for any sustained stretch? Lebron and AD. Cade is nowhere near as high of a prospect as either of those guys, so I woudl suspect his chances of becoming a top 5 player are miniscule
The weird thing is the last 20 years, Doncic was probably the 3rd best prospect...& went 3rd in his own draft.
 

JakeRae

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It’s worth wondering if Presti doesn’t believe in SGAs shooting. His first 2 years he shot .367 and .347 from three. Last year he jumped to .418 on a significant volume increase too. He also doubled his assist rate. I can’t think of a good reason for skepticism on the passing improvement, but if you think he’s a league average shooter instead of a .400+ shooter he’s still a good player, but he’s potentially a lot closer to Brogdon than Kyrie.

To be clear, I’m not sure what to think of SGA. I don’t have a good sense of whether his shooting changed last year or was just falling more. He’s obviously valuable either way, but he is a guy that really needs to be a high end shooter to be a max level player. It’s very possible to see SGA regressing this year and looking like a very good player who you might not be thrilled about signing to a max contract.

For clarity, the player SGA was last year is a max player. I do not mean to suggest he wasn’t, and he’s 22 so smart money is probably on continued improvement. But if you regress just shooting to his career averages, he wasn’t a max level player last year, but a tier down from there.

Since we love Celtics player comparisons, I think if he and Jaylen as having played at similar levels last year. Despite the age difference, I’d buy Jaylen’s future over his though because I see a clearer path to Jaylen being the second best player on a championship team than I do for SGA.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It’s worth wondering if Presti doesn’t believe in SGAs shooting. His first 2 years he shot .367 and .347 from three. Last year he jumped to .418 on a significant volume increase too. He also doubled his assist rate. I can’t think of a good reason for skepticism on the passing improvement, but if you think he’s a league average shooter instead of a .400+ shooter he’s still a good player, but he’s potentially a lot closer to Brogdon than Kyrie.

To be clear, I’m not sure what to think of SGA. I don’t have a good sense of whether his shooting changed last year or was just falling more. He’s obviously valuable either way, but he is a guy that really needs to be a high end shooter to be a max level player. It’s very possible to see SGA regressing this year and looking like a very good player who you might not be thrilled about signing to a max contract.

For clarity, the player SGA was last year is a max player. I do not mean to suggest he wasn’t, and he’s 22 so smart money is probably on continued improvement. But if you regress just shooting to his career averages, he wasn’t a max level player last year, but a tier down from there.

Since we love Celtics player comparisons, I think if he and Jaylen as having played at similar levels last year. Despite the age difference, I’d buy Jaylen’s future over his though because I see a clearer path to Jaylen being the second best player on a championship team than I do for SGA.
Brogdon is a really weird player to compare him to if he ends up just an average shooter. Though Brogdon did have that awful 19-20 season. I know you are doing overall value, just struck me as odd since Brogdon is a really good shooter. Year to year 3 point % is so volatile. SGA is a good FT shooter and he hit 3s in college as well so I think he'll be at least average if not above average. It's easy to get by on a .360-.370 3 point % with volume, especially with the rest of his game. Even as a .370 shooter, I'd argue he's closer to Kyrie.
 

TripleOT

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I wouldn’t trade Jaylen Brown for Beal straight up. Brown is as good a shooter as Beal, if not better, and is a better defender, with size to cover 1-4. He’s younger and cheaper.

That KOC proposal where the Cs give up TL, RL and two first is idiotic.
 

Euclis20

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I must be really overrating SGA, because I think he's just a valuable as the #1 pick all by himself. Shot 50.8% from the field and 41.8% from 3 on high volume (23.7 PPG), and he's a decent rebounder (4.7 RPG). Is already decent on D and has the length to become very good. What am I missing?
Beyond what others have said, he put up those numbers in less than half a season. His assists and 3 point shooting took a huge leap forward and maybe it's real, but there's a real chance his true value is somewhere between last year and the season before, when he shot <35% from 3 and averaged just over 3 assists per game.
 

JM3

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I said before I'd take SGA over DMitch...

I've decided I would probably also take him over Beal & Jaylen...
 

JM3

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Beyond what others have said, he put up those numbers in less than half a season. His assists and 3 point shooting took a huge leap forward and maybe it's real, but there's a real chance his true value is somewhere between last year and the season before, when he shot <35% from 3 and averaged just over 3 assists per game.
I mean, is it surprising that his assist #s went up when he was no longer playing with Chris Paul?

He was also a 40% 3 point shooter in college. It's just as safe to say he's a 40% 3 point shooter as it is Cade.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I said before I'd take SGA over DMitch...

I've decided I would probably also take him over Beal & Jaylen...
I'd take him over the latter 2, not sure about Mitchell. Probably, because of the height advantage. He's a guy I never thought of adding to the Jays, but he really is close to a perfect fit. I'd take him over Simmons too, obv.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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I wouldn’t trade Jaylen Brown for Beal straight up. Brown is as good a shooter as Beal, if not better, and is a better defender, with size to cover 1-4. He’s younger and cheaper.

That KOC proposal where the Cs give up TL, RL and two first is idiotic.
I'm 100% on board with this. Jaylen's on a cheaper contract, is more efficient, and is under control longer. I don't see Beal as a significant upgrade. Beal's been at .350 on 3s the last three years. He has one year of efg% better than Jaylen's career average. I guess you can say he'd be more efficient on the Celtics roster, with less to do, but that's a dice roll. I'd rather keep Jaylen and I don't have any doubt on that.
 

128

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I wouldn’t trade Jaylen Brown for Beal straight up. Brown is as good a shooter as Beal, if not better, and is a better defender, with size to cover 1-4. He’s younger and cheaper.

That KOC proposal where the Cs give up TL, RL and two first is idiotic.
Idiotic is probably an understatement. Really makes me wonder about KOC's judgment.
 

nighthob

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What is the realistic shot of Cade being a top 5 player in the league?
I mean he's more athletic than Luka. He might not be Jaylen athletic, but Jaysus, how many players are? He's clearly as athletic as Tatum who's a plus defender. He isn't going to defend the 1 in the NBA, but then Luka doesn't defend PGs either. You look at the defensive plays he makes and you can see that he processes the game at a high level. You get someone like Cade and then immediately begin looking around for an Avery Bradley type to defend PGs. It's a lot easier to find an undersized SG when you have someone like Cunningham to QB the offense.
 

nighthob

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Rumor has it that Morey is asking for a lot for Ben.

Ben Simmons trade rumors: 76ers seeking 'Harden-esque' return as Daryl Morey continues to shoot for the stars
So he wants spare parts and low firsts with the prayer that some picks later in the decade turn out to be OKish?