2021-22 NBA Off-season Thread

Swedgin

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It’s a state law that is 100% unconstitutional. It is a clear violation of the 14th Amendment which mandates that individuals in similar situations be treated equally by law. I expect the NBAPA to be all over this.

I’ve spent way too much time digging into this stupid shit tonight. My position hasn’t changed.
Am a lawyer. That's not how the equal protection clause works. The key consideration is the basis on which people are being treated differently. Quick version:
  • Race = "strict scrutiny" from the Court =you need a really really really good reason to differentiate on this basis = law will almost certainly fail (caveat unless its interning Japanese-Americans during WWII)
  • Sex = "intermediate scrutiny" = you need a really good basis
  • Everything else = rational basis = if the government can come up with some explanation for the differentiation it is good to go = very very hard to fail the rational basis test (if the judge is applying it appropriately).
I am assume the State of NY and City of San Francisco would argue that they are regulating the vaccination status of individuals who work within their jurisdictions. Individuals who will be in the arena at least 41 times a year. They made a choice not to impose the same requirement on individuals who work elsewhere, when those individuals happen to be in their jurisdiction due to a business trip. Without being privy to what actually motivated the distinction, I can posit a couple of justifications that would satisfy the rationale basis test:

Economic. The State/City benefits economically from GSW/Nets/Knicks hosting games within its jurisdiction. The jurisdiction had concerns that a mandate imposed on visiting teams would be so disruptive, the league would require the team to play elsewhere and result in the loss of that revenue.

Safety/risk. Yes it would be better if everyone is a vaccinated. But mandates come with costs (see above), we made the judgement that given those tradeoffs, we would require vaccination of home players because they are in the arena far more frequently and hence present a greater risk of transmission within our community. In other words, Andrew Wiggins is a greater threat to San Francisco in the 42 games, plus (practices, appearances etc.) he will be inside Oracle, than is Kyrie for the one game he plays there.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think you are misunderstanding what I’m saying. This isn’t about mandating vaccinations…..it is about mandating vaccination for you to work but not for me (or vice versa).
So here's SF full order: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/san-francisco-mandates-proof-full-vaccination-entry-many-establishments. The operative language requires all attendees and staff to be vaccinated but exempts

performers, players, or other visiting individuals who are not employed by the operator of the event, for instance, visiting teams and independent performers. Therefore, proof of vaccination, while recommended, is not required to these non-staff workers. Instead, these non-staff workers must remain six feet away from the public at all times, provide proof of a negative COVID-19 test within 48 hours of the event, wear a mask at all times not performing, and remain away from areas where food or drink is served indoors.
The legal analysis begins with whether there is a protected class implicated. There is not. If there was, there would be heightened scrutiny. Without heightened scrutiny, the question is whether there is a rational basis for the ordinance.

You might think it's irrational to exempt visiting performers but it's not just NBA players. If Kid Rock (assuming he's unvaccinated) wants to play a show, I don't see the problem with him playing since he's not going to be close to many people. Also, he's going to be in and out of the City.

Andrew Wiggins has to be vaccinated since he's considered staff. It's not just performance days that they are worried about but him going to work at the facility each day.

You may think this is totally unreasonable, which is fine. My guess is that the ordinance will stand. Most (all? I've not followed that closely) requirements have been upheld other than those that have implicated religious gatherings.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Thanks for the clarification guys. As I said, not a lawyer but to me this still doesn’t seem right with what we now know about breakthroughs and the spread of vaccinated individuals (yay, me included). Oh well, I’ll just sit this one out and watch the train wreck. Anyone have clips of Theo Pinson offseason workouts?
 

Gash Prex

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By the time this gets challenged and litigated Wiggins would have already cost his team and himself (and he’ll most likely lose as stated above) the best and easiest course is to just get vaccinated and move on with life.

I do not see any benefit for Wiggins to challenge this unless he wants to be the poster child for anti vaccine MAGA folks and be a MAGA grifter
 

axx

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By the time this gets challenged and litigated Wiggins would have already cost his team and himself (and he’ll most likely lose as stated above) the best and easiest course is to just get vaccinated and move on with life.
Was just thinking about this. NBA players especially should have the means to... lets just call it vaccine fraud. Shoot 'em up with saline, waste a dose of J&J and say he's vaccinated.
 

Tony C

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I think you are misunderstanding what I’m saying. This isn’t about mandating vaccinations…..it is about mandating vaccination for you to work but not for me (or vice versa).
States and counties and cities can all have different regulations. This isn't a unitary government with one set of laws for all people. There's nothing shocking there. If the basis for the distinction is discrimination -- -- because he's Black he's subject to this regulation but white player are -- then Wiggins would have a case. He might have a punchers' chance with a really extended definition of religious freedom, but I doubt it.
This really isn't a fair take.

In round 1, he nearly averaged a triple double (15/10/9). Round 2, in game 1, he went for 17/10/4 with 4 steals. Disappeared in game 2. Had a good game 3 with 18/4/7, a good game 4 with 11/12/9, and some unforgettable games 5,6,7.

I think the whole passing up the dunk is way overblown anyway. He made a bad read, but there were two guys right there and in that split second, he thought a pass to Thybule would be for an easy layup. Thybule made 1/2 free throws, and PHI was down just 1 point with 3.5 minutes to go. That loss of 1 point didn't cost them the series.
I agree with you on that one particular play. We see guys make 1 too many passes all the time and that instance wasn't all that different. The difference, though, is it was part of him disappearing down the stretches in numerous games -- i.e, the easily identifiable play that epitomized a pattern. But you're absolutely right he didn't shit the bed. He played generally well. But disappearing in 4th quarters of playoff games is serious.

That said, if I"m a GM and get BS for 3 quarters on the $, I'm taking that risk as the upside is huge and, frankly, I don't see the downside as all that down since per these stats he still brings a lot to the table as a secondary player.
 

Cellar-Door

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What? I mean, MPJ is a good player, but really? Seems like a huge risk with his injury history...

View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1442590324925374467?s=20


Woj: Denver Nuggets forward Michael Porter Jr., has agreed on a five-year designated max extension that could be worth up to $207 million, his agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tells ESPN.
Well it's a designated max and he hasn't even come close to the designated, so really it's just a regular max likely (and if he hits the designated criteria then he's so good you pay it). That's not crazy. He's really good, better than some guys who've gotten the max. Also, DEN has really limited ways to make their team better, MPJ leaving would be way worse than MPJ being overpayed.
 

runnels3

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Leigh Montville’s new book about the 1969 Celtics-Lakers championship series is now available. Leigh writes it from the perspective of his 25-year-old self, Celtics beat writer, but of course the book captures every odd detail Leigh could see that other scribes never thought about. Plus, it’s the last title for Bill Russell, his last battle against Wilt, and so much more.

View: https://www.amazon.com/Tall-Men-Short-Shorts-Reporter/dp/0385545193/ref=sr_1_1?crid=13WEIG8LDT71C&dchild=1&keywords=leigh+montville&qid=1626306594&s=books&sprefix=Leigh%2Cstripbooks%2C164&sr=1-1
Highly recommended. If you were there you don't want to pass up this read. For me, the most satisfying Celts ring of them all. Montville's 50+ year reflection is self deprecating, always identifying his 25 yr old self as TBYM (The Bright Young Man). I cracked up a few times with this perspective. I was a sophomore in Ohio at the time and there wasn't much information to go by. Half the series games weren't even on TV! So I am grateful to have finally caught up with my favorite two weeks of Celtics intensity. The book is so chock full of game by game details and stories I know I will be dusting it off for a re-read down the line. In Russ we trust! 108-106 game 7.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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What? I mean, MPJ is a good player, but really? Seems like a huge risk with his injury history...

Woj: Denver Nuggets forward Michael Porter Jr., has agreed on a five-year designated max extension that could be worth up to $207 million, his agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports tells ESPN.
Funny. People are complaining about Simmons shooting and DEN gives the max to a guy who won't (can't?) play defense.
 

nighthob

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Well, as I sincerely doubt that he’ll qualify for the 30% max Denver really doesn’t need to worry about it. Unless you think he’s a top 15 player in the NBA. Or is poised to make the All-D team.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Well, as I sincerely doubt that he’ll qualify for the 30% max Denver really doesn’t need to worry about it. Unless you think he’s a top 15 player in the NBA. Or is poised to make the All-D team.
He's still going to make $29,750,000, $32,130,000, $34,510,000, and $36,890,000 over the first 4 years of his extension, which is $133M.

I understand that 5th year of $39,270,000 is only partially guaranteed.

I'm not saying DEN made a bad deal but just pointing out one big problem with team building in the NBA. DEN took a gamble, hit what most would call a home run in the draft but is now locked into a core where 75% are either bad or worse defensive players. Can they win a championship like this? I have my doubts. I'm sure DEN does as well. However, they had no choice in the matter as we know letting MPJ walk is probably worse than signing him to the extension.

Cs are going to face same issue with AN, RL, and PP. We've already talked about PP but if AN does hit 40% of his 3P for the next couple of seasons, it will be interesting to see if BOS can find the money to give him an extension that will allow him to stay no matter what else AN is doing on the court. Maybe BOS keeps RL over him not because RL is better but because he might be more affordable by not being considered a shooter.
 

Cellar-Door

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Funny. People are complaining about Simmons shooting and DEN gives the max to a guy who won't (can't?) play defense.
That's how the max is, guys get the max who are flawed. MPJ put up 19 a game on 54/45/79 shooting, and good rebounding. He's also only 2 years in really since he missed his first year. He's the 3rd guy to shoot over 40% from 3 his first two years. Though interestingly, a lot of the Metrics (DARKO, RAPTOR) don't think his defense is that bad.

Honestly I think MPJ is already worth the max and has the potential to be a bargain. He's an elite scorer, and I think he's a better defender than some other elite scorers (Booker). He's exactly the kind of guy you want to max extend. 6'10" guys who can go for 20 on 50/40 are rare. If all he does is that, you have a really good player, if he gets unleashed as a ball handler and improves his defense he's going to be a perennial All-Star, and an All-NBA contender.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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That's how the max is, guys get the max who are flawed. MPJ put up 19 a game on 54/45/79 shooting, and good rebounding. He's also only 2 years in really since he missed his first year. He's the 3rd guy to shoot over 40% from 3 his first two years. Though interestingly, a lot of the Metrics (DARKO, RAPTOR) don't think his defense is that bad.

Honestly I think MPJ is already worth the max and has the potential to be a bargain. He's an elite scorer, and I think he's a better defender than some other elite scorers (Booker). He's exactly the kind of guy you want to max extend. 6'10" guys who can go for 20 on 50/40 are rare. If all he does is that, you have a really good player, if he gets unleashed as a ball handler and improves his defense he's going to be a perennial All-Star, and an All-NBA contender.
Like I said I know DEN had to pay him the max (they are certainly better with him than without him) so not arguing there. And he can fall out of bed scoring.

I would assume the defensive metrics don't think his defense is that bad because he does put up numbers but every time I watch DEN (which admittedly isn't often), he's more or less standing still on defense. He's terrible on switches (which is not good in today's basketball); he let's people cut right past him; every team tries to isolate him when they need a basket; and he's just super slow in all his reactions IMO.

But my bigger question is whether the core that DEN has locked itself into can really contend for a championship. That will be an interesting proposition to watch over the next couple of years.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Cs are going to face same issue with AN, RL, and PP. We've already talked about PP but if AN does hit 40% of his 3P for the next couple of seasons, it will be interesting to see if BOS can find the money to give him an extension that will allow him to stay no matter what else AN is doing on the court. Maybe BOS keeps RL over him not because RL is better but because he might be more affordable by not being considered a shooter.
That’s all wishful thinking for us though. Porter has put up historical shooting numbers out of the gate and is already shown to be an impact player. Our three young guys are still figuring things out while fighting for rotation minutes with 1-2 of them likely to be the odd men out of the rotation this year.
 

Jimbodandy

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That’s all wishful thinking for us though. Porter has put up historical shooting numbers out of the gate and is already shown to be an impact player. Our three young guys are still figuring things out while fighting for rotation minutes with 1-2 of them likely to be the odd men out of the rotation this year.
That's kind of the plus too, if you look at it the other way. Porter pushed his way into the rotation and played well. We'd all be pleased if any of our young guys force Udoka to play them big minutes due to their awesomeness. But assuming that the depth of the team largely prevents that (and none are likely his level offensively anyway), then it is unlikely that the Cs are forced to consider a max on any of them anyway.
 

Cellar-Door

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That’s all wishful thinking for us though. Porter has put up historical shooting numbers out of the gate and is already shown to be an impact player. Our three young guys are still figuring things out while fighting for rotation minutes with 1-2 of them likely to be the odd men out of the rotation this year.
yeah, I mean, Porter hit the ground as the best shooter since Klay his first two years, I mean 51/42 then 54/45 is insane stuff.
 

HomeRunBaker

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With all the media focus on Simmons and vaccinations one little nugget is slipping through the cracks…….Zion’s first foot surgery. Hmmmm.
 

lexrageorge

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With all the media focus on Simmons and vaccinations one little nugget is slipping through the cracks…….Zion’s first foot surgery. Hmmmm.
I'll admit up front that I'm reaching here, as foot surgery for a basketball player is never a good thing. But it does appear that his injury is relatively common and usually heals without complication:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/9/27/22697250/zion-williamson-new-orleans-pelicans-broken-foot

Griffin said that Williamson broke the fifth metatarsal in his right foot—a fairly common injury for basketball stars, one that players like Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Ben Simmons, Pau Gasol, and Brook Lopez have suffered. The good news, according to Jeff Stotts of the injury-focused website In Street Clothes: The “average time lost for in-season fifth metatarsal fractures is about 42 games,” because surgical repair typically takes anywhere from six to 10 weeks. Though cases that occurred in the offseason, Stotts wrote, “missed an average of 15 games with several players active on opening night.” (This offseason, of course, will be about a month shorter than usual.)
 

ElUno20

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So if there's a clear out of bounds blown call under 2 minutes and your coach doesnt have a challenge left, you're screwed?
 

Tony C

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So if there's a clear out of bounds blown call under 2 minutes and your coach doesnt have a challenge left, you're screwed?
There has to be a common sense middle ground btw just the coach's challenge and the endless replays at the end of games. 2 that come to mind are:
-coaches are given 1 additional potential challenge for the final 2 minutes.
-Secaucus can deem 1 additional play worthy of review over the last 2 minutes.
 

JakeRae

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There has to be a common sense middle ground btw just the coach's challenge and the endless replays at the end of games. 2 that come to mind are:
-coaches are given 1 additional potential challenge for the final 2 minutes.
-Secaucus can deem 1 additional play worthy of review over the last 2 minutes.
Give each team one challenge. If you win, you get another. Rinse and repeat. This prioritizes only challenging obviously bad calls, especially early in games, and also means that if you don’t have a challenge left late in the game it’s because you made a bad decision. At the same time, it prevents the scenario where an obviously bad call isn’t challenged to preserve a challenge. It’s an elegantly simple solution that should solve all the problems with replay (including the tendency of refs to get the replay call wrong because it would eliminate a lot of the coin flip challenges that currently take place).
 

Jimbodandy

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Give each team one challenge. If you win, you get another. Rinse and repeat. This prioritizes only challenging obviously bad calls, especially early in games, and also means that if you don’t have a challenge left late in the game it’s because you made a bad decision. At the same time, it prevents the scenario where an obviously bad call isn’t challenged to preserve a challenge. It’s an elegantly simple solution that should solve all the problems with replay (including the tendency of refs to get the replay call wrong because it would eliminate a lot of the coin flip challenges that currently take place).
This is exactly right.
 

Sprowl

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Give each team one challenge. If you win, you get another. Rinse and repeat. This prioritizes only challenging obviously bad calls, especially early in games, and also means that if you don’t have a challenge left late in the game it’s because you made a bad decision. At the same time, it prevents the scenario where an obviously bad call isn’t challenged to preserve a challenge. It’s an elegantly simple solution that should solve all the problems with replay (including the tendency of refs to get the replay call wrong because it would eliminate a lot of the coin flip challenges that currently take place).
It seems to work pretty well in baseball, and only delays the game when there is a clear miscarriage of justice. Most of the time, the manager delays the game only for seconds while the team's replay booth comes up with a recommendation. It also makes for good television, where instant replay on 3-5 different cameras shows how difficult some of these calls really are.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Give each team one challenge. If you win, you get another. Rinse and repeat. This prioritizes only challenging obviously bad calls, especially early in games, and also means that if you don’t have a challenge left late in the game it’s because you made a bad decision. At the same time, it prevents the scenario where an obviously bad call isn’t challenged to preserve a challenge. It’s an elegantly simple solution that should solve all the problems with replay (including the tendency of refs to get the replay call wrong because it would eliminate a lot of the coin flip challenges that currently take place).
This would be a great move in the right direction. (I'd give teams even fewer failed challenges than that, but this would be a great start.)
Challenging a call and demanding it be overturned should be a big deal. If you are wrong, you've wasted everyone's time and slowed the game down, and you should be punished for that. Don't waste everyone's time unless you are sure you're right. Don't spend your only shot challenging a play that isn't crucial, and if you do, don't be wrong. If you are wrong, it's your own fault, so shut up and don't complain.
A challenge should be a rare thing, only happening at a big moment. That would actually make it dramatic, unlike now, when these challenges just slow everything down and make it tortuous to watch.
If this rule was enacted, any time a player complains to a ref, the ref could immediately ask the coach if they are challenging. If not, then tell the player to shut up and get away right now or get a T. Your coach isn't challenging, so take it up with him.
 

Tony C

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He did his research. Went through the previous lab results Conducted his own experiments. Followed that with trials on rats and then willing friends and family. And then came to his own conclusions.

And here we were mocking him -- Wiggins is simply a testament to DIY American-ism.
 

Sam Ray Not

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He did his research. Went through the previous lab results Conducted his own experiments. Followed that with trials on rats and then willing friends and family. And then came to his own conclusions.

And here we were mocking him -- Wiggins is simply a testament to DIY American-ism.
*Canadian-ism
 

Smokey Joe

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The Canadians would like to point out (again), that they are part of North America as well and are “Americans”.
 

Cellar-Door

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Truly nothing more American than taking a strong stand in accordance with your beliefs... right up until it might cost you money.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He did his research. Went through the previous lab results Conducted his own experiments. Followed that with trials on rats and then willing friends and family. And then came to his own conclusions.

And here we were mocking him -- Wiggins is simply a testament to DIY American-ism.
Step 1: Pulls out calculator
Step 2: Divides 31,579,390 by……
Step 3: Logs on at www.cvs.com
 

JM3

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Like I said I know DEN had to pay him the max (they are certainly better with him than without him) so not arguing there. And he can fall out of bed scoring.

I would assume the defensive metrics don't think his defense is that bad because he does put up numbers but every time I watch DEN (which admittedly isn't often), he's more or less standing still on defense. He's terrible on switches (which is not good in today's basketball); he let's people cut right past him; every team tries to isolate him when they need a basket; and he's just super slow in all his reactions IMO.

But my bigger question is whether the core that DEN has locked itself into can really contend for a championship. That will be an interesting proposition to watch over the next couple of years.
It's a bunch of young guys who have already been a 3 seed or better each of the last 3 years. Seems like the type of core you want to lock up as a non-destination city.

Plus, unless they are very negative contracts, which seems unlikely assuming health, there's always the opportunity to pivot & reconstruct around Jokic in a different manner.
 

benhogan

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Just signed up for NBA League Pass $40/month. No single price for the season option.

Is that what the rest of you are paying or is that the YouTubeTV discount :rolleyes:
 

TripleOT

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The Canadians would like to point out (again), that they are part of North America as well and are “Americans”.
If the other countries in North America are going to try to claim to be Americans, MAGAts better stop yelling at Mexicans to “Speak American”
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Just signed up for NBA League Pass $40/month. No single price for the season option.

Is that what the rest of you are paying or is that the YouTubeTV discount :rolleyes:
$40 a month for five months, right, as LP Is $200? https://watch.nba.com/streaming-subscriptions

I haven't re-upped yet but that sounds right (either that or $50 a month for four months). I think Xfinity also gives me the option to pay in full if I want.