Patricia to Rejoin Staff

Ferm Sheller

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For one thing, BB brought him back to help turn over the Mountain Dew in the vending machine so that fresh cans are always available.
 

Cousin Walter

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Because he is basically going to work for free. Detroit is paying him. That’s the BB MO. Get fired coaches so you don’t have to pay them.
Why would BB give a shit about an assistant coach's salary? It's not like it counts against the cap. It just comes out of Kraft's money.
 

rodderick

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He can be a good defensive coach and a terrible D coordinator.
Sure, but how can fans possibly know if the guy is a good position coach? I mean, aside from "Bill likes him, so he must be good" which, honestly, I'll take as an explanation.

I just feel they could use bodies right now, just coaches who have experience in the system. So bring on Patricia, can't hurt.
 

BigJimEd

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Because he is basically going to work for free. Detroit is paying him. That’s the BB MO. Get fired coaches so you don’t have to pay them.
Link for this? Do we know what they might be paying Matty P?

I believe they made McDaniels the highest paid coordinator.

They could probably use some defensive coaches but I'm pretty meh on Patricia. I was one of those that was happy to see him go.
 

BigSoxFan

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Link for this? Do we know what they might be paying Matty P?

I believe they made McDaniels the highest paid coordinator.

They could probably use some defensive coaches but I'm pretty meh on Patricia. I was one of those that was happy to see him go.
I’ll probably never forgive him for that putrid SB performance against Nick Foles. Wonder what Lil Belichick thinks of this. Either way...meh.
 

luckiestman

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Poor Eric the Rat. BB loves all his shitty assistant coaches and welcomes them back with open arms except for Eric.
 

BaseballJones

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Sure, but how can fans possibly know if the guy is a good position coach? I mean, aside from "Bill likes him, so he must be good" which, honestly, I'll take as an explanation.

I just feel they could use bodies right now, just coaches who have experience in the system. So bring on Patricia, can't hurt.
Well...we probably can’t really know and have to trust BB’s judgment.
 

mauf

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Will be interested to see if his sexual abuse allegation gets any airtime in this.

It should.
And it will. Even if you give Patricia the benefit of the doubt (which I don’t), why would you invite this controversy? The success of the defense since Patricia left, plus his failure in Detroit, strongly suggests he isn’t a transcendently talented coach. Find someone else for the role, unless you’re trying to pick a fight with Kraft or something.

The Pats and BB gave Patricia his big break. They owe him nothing. Let someone else give him the opportunity to revive his career.
 

joe dokes

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He was D-coordinator when they won the SB in 2014 and 2016. In 2016 they were #1 in the NFL in points allowed. Yes, in 2017 it was not good but to say he never had any success as a DC is just factually incorrect.
This. And maybe BB is doing the guy a solid.Who knows. Maybe BB gave him advice and he ignored it and he's going to come back with his tail between his legs.
 

rodderick

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He was D-coordinator when they won the SB in 2014 and 2016. In 2016 they were #1 in the NFL in points allowed. Yes, in 2017 it was not good but to say he never had any success as a DC is just factually incorrect.
The 2016 defense was 16th in DVOA. A whole lot of smoke and mirrors + absolutely dominant offense that never turned the ball over.
 

Van Everyman

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Maybe he likes working with the guy. We may not see why but they won multiple Super Bowls with Patricia at the helm of the defense (and the 2017 defense seemed like an outlier and at least partly a factor of injuries to guys like Hightower).

I get it. Continuity is def. important given the attrition they’ve had. Plus, Josh and Bill himself were guys who were brought back into the fold after failing elsewhere as a head coach. But I have concerns given the allegations.
 

ShaneTrot

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The 2016 defense was 16th in DVOA. A whole lot of smoke and mirrors + absolutely dominant offense that never turned the ball over.
NE has consistently ranked as one of the top teams in points allowed, which to me is the defensive stat that matters most. Hell, this lousy 2020 Pats defense was 7th in points allowed.

I have a visceral dislike for Patricia. He really fucked up in Detroit. His Detroit defenses were progressively worse, even after he had Quinn get him the players he wanted and got rid of the players he didn't want. Plus the players seemed to hate him. In BB, we trust.
 

wiffleballhero

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In the simulacrum
My guess -- and it certainly is nothing more -- is that Belichick knows exactly what Patricia's weakness are, but he also almost certainly knows about any number of things that Patricia probably does well and maybe even does better than anyone else he can hire, even if (maybe especially if) those coaching skills are better outside a head coaching role.

Hell, for all we know, maybe Patricia is really, really good at translating and executing Belichick's thinking in ways he values, but this does not at all mean that Patricia is especially well suited to coach on his own.
 

rodderick

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NE has consistently ranked as one of the top teams in points allowed, which to me is the defensive stat that matters most. Hell, this lousy 2020 Pats defense was 7th in points allowed.

I have a visceral dislike for Patricia. He really fucked up in Detroit. His Detroit defenses were progressively worse, even after he had Quinn get him the players he wanted and got rid of the players he didn't want. Plus the players seemed to hate him. In BB, we trust.
Points allowed is context insensitive. This lousy 2020 Patriots defense was 7th in points allowed because they had the best special teams unit in football and a run oriented offense that ran a lot of plays per drive and shortened the game. Worst opponent starting field position + few offensive drives per game = mediocre defense that doesn't give up a lot of points. Do you think that unit was anywhere near the 7th best defense in the NFL in 2020?
 

tims4wins

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As much as I wince when I hear this news... until 2017, did anyone not think he was a good coach and a future HC in waiting? The 2017 D sucked the first 4 games, got its shit together, then had an all time bad super bowl. If they played decent in that game I doubt anyone still hates Marty P.
 

SMU_Sox

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As much as I wince when I hear this news... until 2017, did anyone not think he was a good coach and a future HC in waiting? The 2017 D sucked the first 4 games, got its shit together, then had an all time bad super bowl. If they played decent in that game I doubt anyone still hates Marty P.
That defense got somewhat better (largely against mediocre competition IIRC) but was never good. They ended the year 31st in DVOA I think. The offense and special teams helped them out tremendously with field position. That was a dreadful defense even including a few good games here and there usually with the lead.
 

tims4wins

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That defense got somewhat better (largely against mediocre competition IIRC) but was never good. They ended the year 31st in DVOA I think. The offense and special teams helped them out tremendously with field position. That was a dreadful defense even including a few good games here and there usually with the lead.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. They gave up 168 over their final 12 (14 ppg) and only gave up >= 20 twice. They held 4 of those 12 teams in single digits. They held 8 of the 12 under 350 yards. 9 of the 12 were < 250 passing yards. They allowed 14 and 20 in the AFC playoffs. If you throw out the first four weeks, that is a dominant defense.
 

SMU_Sox

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I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. They gave up 168 over their final 12 (14 ppg) and only gave up >= 20 twice. They held 4 of those 12 teams in single digits. They held 8 of the 12 under 350 yards. 9 of the 12 were < 250 passing yards. They allowed 14 and 20 in the AFC playoffs. If you throw out the first four weeks, that is a dominant defense.
I agree they got better during the second half of the season but here is the counterargument since I didn't really use any solid data when posting last time

38260

Weighted DVOA is 23rd and an improvement. As I said back then their run defense was truly dreadful.


38261

Drive stats are telling to me - they were 32nd in the league in yards per drive but had the best defensive starting field position in the league. 2nd worst for plays per drive against as well. I think that defense was fools gold - if you go by points you'd think it was good but if you look at efficiency and drive stats it looks pretty bad/lucky.

I think you could make an argument they had a good week 12 - SB but we're dealing in small sample sizes and with injuries it doomed them. That front 7 got demolished by the Eagles and their slot/nickel corners/safeties in that game were fucking trash. Their LBs couldn't cover either. Even Chung had a bad game. Foles also made some incredible throws, the Eagles got away with an illegal formation, and the Ertz catch wasn't a catch. All of those things are true including, imo, that defense being a bottom 3rd of the league bad one. Here are the game by game stats:

38262



If you want the final word on that one that's fine. I just wanted to throw some data in with my previously very quick opinion.
 

Cellar-Door

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As much as I wince when I hear this news... until 2017, did anyone not think he was a good coach and a future HC in waiting? The 2017 D sucked the first 4 games, got its shit together, then had an all time bad super bowl. If they played decent in that game I doubt anyone still hates Marty P.
Not sure what I thought in 2016, but when he got the Lions job I remember being not just being surprised that he got a job, I honestly thought there was a better chance he got fired than got stolen for a HC job. I remember thinking he was awful.
 

tims4wins

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I agree they got better during the second half of the season but here is the counterargument since I didn't really use any solid data when posting last time

View attachment 38260

Weighted DVOA is 23rd and an improvement. As I said back then their run defense was truly dreadful.


View attachment 38261

Drive stats are telling to me - they were 32nd in the league in yards per drive but had the best defensive starting field position in the league. 2nd worst for plays per drive against as well. I think that defense was fools gold - if you go by points you'd think it was good but if you look at efficiency and drive stats it looks pretty bad/lucky.

I think you could make an argument they had a good week 12 - SB but we're dealing in small sample sizes and with injuries it doomed them. That front 7 got demolished by the Eagles and their slot/nickel corners/safeties in that game were fucking trash. Their LBs couldn't cover either. Even Chung had a bad game. Foles also made some incredible throws, the Eagles got away with an illegal formation, and the Ertz catch wasn't a catch. All of those things are true including, imo, that defense being a bottom 3rd of the league bad one. Here are the game by game stats:

View attachment 38262



If you want the final word on that one that's fine. I just wanted to throw some data in with my previously very quick opinion.
Yeah I get that DVOA hates that D. But to give all the credit to the offense seems unfair too. They had wins by the following scores:
19-14
24-17
23-7
21-13
23-3
26-6

Those aren’t crazy dominant offense performances where the D feasted off playing with the lead and the opponents were passing every down. We all watched the 2011 Pats, we all watched the 2017 Pats. Both teams finished bottom 2 in defensive DVOA, both teams went 13-3, both teams lost in the Super Bowl. Having watched every snap of both teams, I don’t even think there is a comparison between the defenses. Obviously YMMV.
 

JM3

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He just seems to have been hired to handle "a variety of roles" with no play calling responsibility or anything. I don't really see a football downside.

So basically just comes down to how you feel about the 25 y/o allegations.
 

Super Nomario

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The 2016 defense was 16th in DVOA. A whole lot of smoke and mirrors + absolutely dominant offense that never turned the ball over.
That's weird. The 2016 D did have the best starting field position in in the league, but they allowed the 10th-fewest yards per drive, only 6.0 yards per pass attempt (6th in the NFL), and only 3.9 yards per rush (8th). That adds up to 2nd-fewest points allowed per drive and fewest points allowed overall ... but somehow 16th in DVOA. Since DVOA is a black box, I guess we'll never know why, but I'm sticking with the 2016 D was pretty darn good.

2017 on the other hand ...
Yeah I get that DVOA hates that D. But to give all the credit to the offense seems unfair too. They had wins by the following scores:
19-14
24-17
23-7
21-13
23-3
26-6

Those aren’t crazy dominant offense performances where the D feasted off playing with the lead and the opponents were passing every down. We all watched the 2011 Pats, we all watched the 2017 Pats. Both teams finished bottom 2 in defensive DVOA, both teams went 13-3, both teams lost in the Super Bowl. Having watched every snap of both teams, I don’t even think there is a comparison between the defenses. Obviously YMMV.
Some of these, honestly, yeah, the O was carrying the team. That 23-7 was put up on 8 drives (and one where they weren't even trying to score); that's great offensive efficiency. The 26-6 game, they did run out to a 21-3 lead by halftime and the D could pin their ears back.

The 2011 defense had a miserable secondary but actually a pretty decent pass rush. The 2017 defense had a good secondary (once Gilmore got off his early-season yips at least) but an awful pass rush. Lousy linebackers, too (Hightower only played 5 games). There's a reason the corpse of James Harrison played almost wire-to-wire in the Super Bowl and guys like Marquis Flowers were in coverage on critical plays.
 

Rough Carrigan

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The Eagles said that they always knew exactly what the Patriots were going to do on defense in that Super Bowl. Under Flores the next year they started trying to actively promote some unpredictability. And they were better. Why couldn't Matt Patricia see that it was a problem?
 
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It’s also worth noting that Belichick is as much to blame for the defensive performance in the super bowl as Patricia. I too preferred the D under Flores - how could you not? More aggressive, effective, all that - but it’s not a matter of BB saying, “Well, I guess that’s how Matt’s gonna call it, nothin’ I can do!” Especially when it comes to D, the credit/blame goes to BB as much as the coordinator. Bill could’ve told Matt to call that D more aggressively, through the season and in the super bowl. That’s on him, too.

If Bill thinks Patricia can help with the massive, recent brain-drain, and I’m guessing he will help with that, I’m all for it.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Bill decides what their defensive approach will be, even if he’s not making the play calls, make no mistake.

To wit, I recall Greg Bedard admitting he tried during the 2018 season to get the Pats defensive players to credit Flores for the more aggressive defensive approach/success, but while they loved ‘Flo’ all of their comments came back to Bill’s influence.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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In Bill we trust. Maybe Patricia is great at grinding tape and they need someone like that now.
I think this is definitely a good possibility. I also suspect that Patricia will be an asset in draft preparation. He knows the scheme and the kinds of players that best suit it, and has a background in scouting.
 

Cotillion

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Here's the question... does anyone believe Bill just gives guys jobs to give them jobs?

Patricia is coming back because he fits some need that Bill sees.

I am not a blanket just assume Bill always is right, but in this it seems likely Bill has some value add in mind for bringing him back.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Does anyone have a source for the amount of blitzes a defense runs? My memory of Patricia is that he took "bend but dont break" to mean, "bring pressure with 2, 3, or 4 men for the majority of a game".

You can disguise a defense as much as you want, but if you're not bringing any blitzes, it makes the lines job very easy to diagnose for a full game.

I feel like one of the things Flores did well was disguise pressure and bring blitzer's from different angles. With great man coverage, it did a lot to mask some holes on his Patriots defenses.

I could have a faulty memory on Patricia/Flores time here, though.
 

nattysez

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If BB is trying to set up Steve for success, being able to hear from Patricia about what didn't work as a head coach while getting his help with whatever the team needs seems like a smart approach.
 

67YAZ

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It’s just smart to bring back a guy who knows the organization through and through after a period where lots of coaching talent has left. Patricia rose through the ranks and can provide support at a number of different points, whether directly or in training new hires/newly promoted coaches.

Another question here is what this means for Mayo. Patricia doesn’t have a title yet and it’s not clear that this is a permanent gig for him, but it raises the possibility that Mayo won’t rise up into the DC role soon. Or maybe he will. We’ll have to see, but I hope Bill has been clear in his communication with Mayo and there’s a plan in place to keep him...because there’s a lot of other coaching staffs being built out right now, so it wouldn’t be too hard for Mayo to move.
 

Super Nomario

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Does anyone have a source for the amount of blitzes a defense runs? My memory of Patricia is that he took "bend but dont break" to mean, "bring pressure with 2, 3, or 4 men for the majority of a game".

You can disguise a defense as much as you want, but if you're not bringing any blitzes, it makes the lines job very easy to diagnose for a full game.

I feel like one of the things Flores did well was disguise pressure and bring blitzer's from different angles. With great man coverage, it did a lot to mask some holes on his Patriots defenses.

I could have a faulty memory on Patricia/Flores time here, though.
PFRef has this, but only going back to 2018.

2018 Pats: 30.9% (8th)
2018 Lions: 16.9% (31st)
2019 Pats: 37.1% (6th)
2019 Lions: 18.0% (30th)
2020 Pats: 24.4% (23rd)
2020 Lions: 23.7% (25th)

So the 2018 and 2019 Pats blitzed a lot more than Patricia's Lions, which fits your recollection (and mine) of Patricia's D here. Interestingly, the Pats largely ceased their blitzing ways this year despite fundamentally the same D staff as last year, which maybe suggests personnel was driving some of their aggressiveness.
 
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It wasn't Patricia's D. It was Belichick's D. Patricia followed orders and called plays - aggressively or not, blitz-heavy or not - based on what BB told him/planned to do during the week of/run-up to and during the game.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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It wasn't Patricia's D. It was Belichick's D. Patricia followed orders and called plays - aggressively or not, blitz-heavy or not - based on what BB told him/planned to do during the week of/run-up to and during the game.
Is this true? I got the impression BB was heavily involved with weekly prep, but that it was Patricias show during the game (for the most part). Do you have a source for that?
 

Cellar-Door

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I assume this isn't a big deal and Patricia isn't getting a particularly meaningful role, but I still don't love it:
1. Patricia's sexual assault allegations and how he handled them during the Lions hiring.
2. Patricia's work for the Lions was pretty bad
3. Patricia's talent evaluation for the Lions was awful.

What role do we see him in that he's a positive, given he appears to be bad at evaluating talent, bad at developing talent, bad at calling plays........

I know that Bill runs the show, and he cares a lot about "guys he trusts", but man, I'd like to see more guys with interesting ideas and skills in the building who actually add something.
 

ZMart100

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I think he can have lot to add. There's no indication he's going to be in charge of the defense, so his record there doesn't really matter to me. Likewise I don't think he's going to get the checkbook from BB. That doesn't mean he can't contribute.
1) Free agency - He knows the Lions players and probably the NFC North better than anyone in the building. How hard does [Lions FA] work? Is he a good teammate? What problems did [NFC North] player present?
2) Draft - He's another person who knows what the org wants in a player. They've lost a few bodies there and it takes a lot of people to cover pro days etc.
3) Camp/practice - He can be another teacher on the field. (Ex. Dom Capers was a "special assistant" and secondary coach for the Pats between coordinator gigs.)
4) Scouting - Another set of eyes. Particularly self-scouting.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think he can have lot to add. There's no indication he's going to be in charge of the defense, so his record there doesn't really matter to me. Likewise I don't think he's going to get the checkbook from BB. That doesn't mean he can't contribute.
1) Free agency - He knows the Lions players and probably the NFC North better than anyone in the building. How hard does [Lions FA] work? Is he a good teammate? What problems did [NFC North] player present?
2) Draft - He's another person who knows what the org wants in a player. They've lost a few bodies there and it takes a lot of people to cover pro days etc.
3) Camp/practice - He can be another teacher on the field. (Ex. Dom Capers was a "special assistant" and secondary coach for the Pats between coordinator gigs.)
4) Scouting - Another set of eyes. Particularly self-scouting.
What about his time in Detroit makes you think he's a guy you want doing 1, 2 or 4? His time there was defined in many ways by exceptionally bad talent evaluation.
 

ZMart100

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What about his time in Detroit makes you think he's a guy you want doing 1, 2 or 4? His time there was defined in many ways by exceptionally bad talent evaluation.
1) I think he knows how hard his players worked or what leadership qualities they showed. Like I said, this isn't giving him the Pats' checkbook to choose players. This is about another stream of information that can help BB value free agents. Plus he has almost certainly watched as much NFC North film than anyone in the building. He might have picked up on something about a player that hasn't been noticed by others.
2) They send like the third assistant special teams waterboy out to colleges with stop watches. I'm not saying that he should be in charge on draft day. I would trust his reports
on how a player does in position drills. He isn't a football moron.
4) He wouldn't have been a position coach much less a coordinator for the Patriots if he couldn't watch film. This doesn't mean he's in charge of the game plan. Plus he beat the Pats, I would want to know what he saw.
 

JM3

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Anyone know how Stafford feels about Patricia?
Q: I keep hearing how Stafford had a strained relationship with Patricia early on - what caused that strain with Stafford specifically and how did Bevell help mend it? -- @CammmmFryzel

A: Matt Patricia was hard on players, especially that first season. He was viewed as combative, dismissive, condescending. I wasn’t in those rooms obviously, but those are the words I’ve heard from multiple guys who were there. Patricia talked down to players, went after them for mistakes, on the field as well as in some legendary meetings. The worse they played, the worse those meetings got for everyone.

Nobody was spared. Not even Matthew Stafford. The veteran, franchise quarterback wasn’t a fan of Patricia’s talking-down style, according to multiple sources in a position to know. I believe there is more to the story, but that’s what I have confirmed and feel comfortable reporting at this time. I don’t think it was a toxic relationship at any point, but there was tension between the coach and his quarterback, period.

Of course, playing badly didn’t help matters either. Remember how bad that offense was in the final days of Jim Bob Cooter? That’s some of the worst football I’ve ever seen, and let me tell you, I’ve seen some bad football over the years. Then Darrell Bevell walked through the door in 2019, and was a breath of fresh air for a lot guys on offense. That was especially true for Stafford, who worked more directly with him than any other player. Bevell’s just a positive energy kind of guy, and is also more collaborative with his game-planning process too. Stafford had a bigger voice in what Detroit did offensively. If he didn’t like a play, they’d talk about how to tweak it so Stafford would have more confidence running it, or just throw it out entirely.

That led to Stafford playing much better in 2019. Not only that, Bevell trusted him to open up the downfield passing game, which has always been Stafford’s thing. He produced at a really high level -- he threw for more yards than any other quarterback in the first half of last season -- before suffering the back injury that ended his season in Oakland.

Stafford had more control than ever, while working with a more positive guy than ever, and played better than ever. That went a long way toward papering over whatever problems existed between him and the head coach. And as I’ve written many times, Patricia also softened some over time, wasn’t so toxic with players, and that’s a big reason why guys who weren’t around for 2018 tend to have a higher opinion of Patricia than guys who were. In the end, the Patricia-Stafford relationship was fine down the stretch. It just wasn’t always that way, as it wasn’t for many players.
https://www.mlive.com/lions/2020/12/ask-kyle-thoughts-on-matt-patricia-bob-quinn-darrell-bevell-the-ford-family-and-locker-room-mimosas.html
 

Van Everyman

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This reads a lot like McDaniels’ tenure in Denver: trying to be a hardass taskmaster like Bill at the jump without the credibility. Tho it seems he might have modulated his approach over his three seasons there.
 

Captaincoop

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Here's the question... does anyone believe Bill just gives guys jobs to give them jobs?

Patricia is coming back because he fits some need that Bill sees.

I am not a blanket just assume Bill always is right, but in this it seems likely Bill has some value add in mind for bringing him back.
Bill has been doing this a long time. My simple assumption is, he looks at preparing for the season and for each game during the season as a process. He views Patricia as a guy he trusts who knows that process well. He's lost a lot of those guys over the past few years and having one of them back will help him have the team prepared. End of story.

I doubt Belichick looks back at prior Patriots seasons the way we do - our defense was better in year X because Matt Patricia was here, or because Romeo Crennel was here. They were all his teams.