Why amazed? I thought he was great last year, and critical to reaching the Finals. I am just concerned that he looks a step slow already this year, and we're only a few weeks in, and he's old.
2022-2023 General Celtics thread
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
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Turner put up 37/12 with 3 blocks last night against NO and Valanciunas. Just sayin'.
But I'm not trading Al.
View: https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/1590544525272891392?s=20&t=xV_7yBZRrNDXNhapkTFFzw
This is fairly remarkable given that they've only just entered their primes. The 4 guys listed above all made the NBA top 75 team.
This is fairly remarkable given that they've only just entered their primes. The 4 guys listed above all made the NBA top 75 team.
Yep, two great players that go great together.
Celtics were 12th in Assists per game and 9th (fewest) in Turnovers before tonight, when they went 31/12. The offense continues to be a joy to watch, even with some dead periods. Defense looked fantastic for long stretches, albeit against a pretty poor Detroit team. Nice to be able to pull the starters early.
Only real downside was Brogdon playing hot potato with the ball and then checking out with a hamstring. Hope he's ok, but a little more White and some PP won't kill them for a week.
This was a generally easy win marred by a little bit of sloppiness, but I think that is going to happen sometimes against teams like Detroit. The Celtics led the whole way, occasionally almost letting DET get back into it. They "won" every quarter outsode of garbage time.
A few notable things:
A few notable things:
- This was Brogdon's worst game as a C, and he left with hamstring soreness. In 14 first half minutes, he shot well and scored 9 points, not bad at all, but he had only 1 assists vs 4 turnovers. Turnovers are part of wht he was brought here to address. But his health is the much larger concern. Managing his health is one of the team's top priorities, because he is exactly what the team was missing this past postseason.
- For the past 2 games, the Celtics have switched Grant and White - Grant starting, White coming off the bench. As a starter, Grant has been far less assertive than he was coming off the bench. In his first start, he took zero shots from the field in 30+ minutes. In this one, he shot 2-4 but got himself in foul trouble and played only 20 minutes. I wonder why the switch was made and whether or not it was a good idea.
- Outside of Grant, the Celtic starters were all good. Brown and Tatum each dropped an efficient 30. Horford was perfect from the field, and Marcus shot poorly but had his 3rd straight game of 10+ assists - his ATO over the past 3 games is 34-4.
- Big game from Sam Hauser, who rode the Brogdon missed second half and Grant's foul trouble to a carrer-high 32 minutes in which he shot 9-15, 6-12 from three, for 24 points. Had some nice cuts and a successful drive of a closeout late in the shot clock on top of knocking down threes. He's now third on the team in made threes, trailing only Tatum and Brown.
- Luke Kornet returned and played 18 minutes, and he continues to be decent. Five rebounds, 2 assists, and a block, although he did turn it over twice.
- Derrick White did not do much coming off the bench in the last game, but in this one he was a good aggressive energy player. In 20 minutes, he scored 8 points, had a team-leading 8 rebounds, and added 4 assists. Whether starting or coming off the bench, he often stands out as someone who is bringing the energy.
I was thinking the other night watching them play against Memphis like the globetrotters that this team is what we have all dreamed of for years with Tatum and Brown.
Brad Stevens has really pushed the right buttons since he took over as President and totally reshaped the roster and refocused the direction of the team.
Fwiw, I think that CJM is experimenting with starting Grant against bigger/longer lineups because White can be ragdolled. I love DW, but when the opponent is starting Bojan, Bey, Beef Stew, Cade, and Ivey, probably best to start off at least with better beef and a few more inches of standing reach in Grant. Ivey is the smallest guy out there and looks like he could step in as a free safety on the Lions and do well. If I'm right, White will still get the starts against shiftier, faster teams where his footspeed advantage over Grant is more valuable.
Probably best to get guys like White and Grant used to the idea of matchup-dependent assignments now.
Facts. Someday we may talk at length about how giving the reins to a guy who just coached the team with his hands tied is not a terrible idea, assuming the guy is smart and disciplined. Who knew better what the roster was missing than the guy with a hole in his toolbox.
They're using him to shoot Ts now, which is both a mark of confidence and probably intended as a confidence builder.
Definitely, but he's had pretty steady improvement throughout his career. .678 after his first 4 years, up to .769 since the start of the 20/21 season. He's also been pretty good when it's mattered, he's at .786 over his last 3 postseasons (not an insignificant sample, 224 free throw attempts in the playoffs since 2019).
One of the most encouraging signs for me is that this team doesn’t tend to get boat raced/go completely ice cold for long stretches. Teams make their runs but the C’s scoring has generally responded. How many games did they just fall asleep for half a quarter last season? That lack of double digit deficits really helps Joe be more economical with the Jays’ minutes.
The offense really has taken a leap across the board so far.
The offense really has taken a leap across the board so far.
Totally. Having two excellent ball-movers in White and Brogdon who can competently drive and kick and score in their own right has raised the number of assisted shots that Tatum is taking, which has been huge. Taken the pressure off Brown to playmake, too, which he's just not very good at. It's also allowed Marcus to focus on playmaking. The Firehaus taking Pritchard's minutes has been great too. Much as I love Pritchard (I think I even recklessly compared him to FVV once), he struggled to get his shot off.
The team is filled with guys who can can threes from all over the court. Grant, Hauser, Brown, Tatum, Brogdon, Horford... The list goes on. The improved White, Pritchard...
Add Rob in, and the offense will be ridiculous, nevermind the D.
Yeah, I assume this is about confidence building since Grant (90.5% in 21') Williams was on the floor when he was used to shoot (and miss) a free throw last night.
I could see this going well for a few minutes. Then a quick call to Mr. Horford.
Many wanted more movement on offense last season.
JOE has brought it. No more potted plants in the corner, everyone cuts/screens.
https://www.clnsmedia.com/jaylen-brown-adjusting-to-joe-mazzullas-new-celtics-offense/
JOE has brought it. No more potted plants in the corner, everyone cuts/screens.
https://www.clnsmedia.com/jaylen-brown-adjusting-to-joe-mazzullas-new-celtics-offense/
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The offense is really beautiful now, particularly with the amount of off-ball screening and cutting going on. Warriors split cut vibes.
Tatum is scoring on cuts 6.9% of the time, up from 3.8% last season. Jaylen is at 6.2%, up from 5.8%.
When your best scorers (Tatum in particular) are active off ball, it makes everyone else more dangerous. The offense is beautiful, as is the buy in.
When your best scorers (Tatum in particular) are active off ball, it makes everyone else more dangerous. The offense is beautiful, as is the buy in.
SSS but the Celtics own the #1 Off Rtg without their most efficient/highest Off Rtg player from last season.
On another note, Grant in the starting 5:
A. Ends tonight?
B. Very temporary, match-up based?
C. Until Rob is back, then return to Al/TL combo?
D. For good, have Rob & Al split Center minutes?
Been wondering about something, but could there be something about the quality of minutes played? Like, if you're playing a lot of minutes because you're just having an easy go of your minutes being spent more in transition than in being bogged down in ISOs and half-court?
Like, is there a basketball equivalent of throwing 10 pitches in an inning vs throwing 30-40 in an inning?
Because it feels like Tatum and Brown are having an easier time in their minutes than they did the last few years.
Kinda.
Through 12 games last year, Tatum averaged 37.6 mpg. So far this year he's averaged 37.2.
Through 12 games last year (of which he played 8), Brown averaged 37.6 mpg. So far this year he's averaged 36.5.
I wonder if this is part of a natural curve.
Watching the game tonight and a few forays of JT and JB to the rim, I thought back to last year this time and how we'd complain the when either of them made a move, there was at least one and sometimes 2 extra defenders waiting for them.
How quickly things change. JT must think he's playing 1 on 1 sometimes with how open the lane is these days.
The Celtics are currently 1st in pgg at 119.8, a mark that would be the 2nd highest in the last 30 years.
Their offensive rating would be an NBA record.
Defense is improving rapidly; they have started to look like the Playoff Celtics again in communication and effort. (Recall that the Playoff Celtics also didn't have Rob for long stretches.) Kornet is getting better and more confident/forceful as he plays more minutes.
I think they like Grant's spacing and size/switchability on the 1st unit. Teams had been hunting DWhite down low. However, I bet against a dynamic PG, they'd play White, since he's their best quick guard defender.
The Cs also seem to like DWhite on the 2nd unit, either next to Brogdon or playing the Brogdon role. He's a legit NBA PG.
It will take time for them to climb back up the rankings, but the D has been noticeably better of late in terms of effort and communication. I think without Rob or backup C upgrade, they have a chance to settle in as a top-12ish defense with a ridiculous offense. With him........
Good, solid win against another good team last night (both the Celtics and the Nuggets went in to last night at 8-3).
For them most part, the Celtics took an early lead and held it. Denver made one run in the third where they came close to tying it (Aaron Gordon went to the line down by 2 and missed both), but otherwise is was mostly their game.
The offense is looking really good. The defense is coming along. Nikola Jokic, who only played 29 minutes due to a combination of foul trouble and garbage time, scored 29 points on 12 of 20 shooting and really made it look easy. However, he has only 3 assists. Denver's offense generally runs through him, and Mazzulla saied after the game that limiting his playmaking was a point of emphasis.
Excellent games from Tatum and Brown, who scored 34 and 25 points, respectively. Tatum shot poorly from three (2 of 7) but shot well from 2, got to the line (10 of 11), and had 8 rebounds and 5 assists. Brown opened the game hitting his first 9 or 10 shots before finishing 11 of 15. He also had 8 rebounds and led the team with 8 assists, some fo them very good looks.
Horford played 35 minutes - I hope he has another bout of "lower back stiffness" and sits ot tonight. He shot 6 of 8 from 3 on the way to 21 points.
Smart did not produce stats (4 points and 4 assists in 24 minutes, limited by foul trouble) but he was a +28.
Grant, whose counting stats declined when he got into the starting lineup, bounced back with 13 points on 5-8 shooting, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, a block and a steal in 32 minutes.
White was basically his usual self, and Hauser had his first rough shooting night, only 1 of 6 from three. He did add 5 rebounds, an assist, and 2 blocks and had a nice finish - high off the glass layup - off a cut where I thought he was going to be blocked.
Kornet had a nice game, I think he works as the backup big for now. I think there is plenty he can do to improve and he is getting better. I don't see him as more than a "give him spot minutes with fingers crossed" guy in the playoffs, but relying on him in the playoff sis not part of the plan.
With Brogdon out, Pritchard got to play meaningful minutes, and he was great as an energy guy off the bench. Odd state line for him: missed his only three and had no assists, but shot a perfect 5-5 from two and had 5 rebounds (4 offensive). Led the Celtics bench with 11 points.
I think the Celtics have enough guy who can play to start doing some load management.
For them most part, the Celtics took an early lead and held it. Denver made one run in the third where they came close to tying it (Aaron Gordon went to the line down by 2 and missed both), but otherwise is was mostly their game.
The offense is looking really good. The defense is coming along. Nikola Jokic, who only played 29 minutes due to a combination of foul trouble and garbage time, scored 29 points on 12 of 20 shooting and really made it look easy. However, he has only 3 assists. Denver's offense generally runs through him, and Mazzulla saied after the game that limiting his playmaking was a point of emphasis.
Excellent games from Tatum and Brown, who scored 34 and 25 points, respectively. Tatum shot poorly from three (2 of 7) but shot well from 2, got to the line (10 of 11), and had 8 rebounds and 5 assists. Brown opened the game hitting his first 9 or 10 shots before finishing 11 of 15. He also had 8 rebounds and led the team with 8 assists, some fo them very good looks.
Horford played 35 minutes - I hope he has another bout of "lower back stiffness" and sits ot tonight. He shot 6 of 8 from 3 on the way to 21 points.
Smart did not produce stats (4 points and 4 assists in 24 minutes, limited by foul trouble) but he was a +28.
Grant, whose counting stats declined when he got into the starting lineup, bounced back with 13 points on 5-8 shooting, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, a block and a steal in 32 minutes.
White was basically his usual self, and Hauser had his first rough shooting night, only 1 of 6 from three. He did add 5 rebounds, an assist, and 2 blocks and had a nice finish - high off the glass layup - off a cut where I thought he was going to be blocked.
Kornet had a nice game, I think he works as the backup big for now. I think there is plenty he can do to improve and he is getting better. I don't see him as more than a "give him spot minutes with fingers crossed" guy in the playoffs, but relying on him in the playoff sis not part of the plan.
With Brogdon out, Pritchard got to play meaningful minutes, and he was great as an energy guy off the bench. Odd state line for him: missed his only three and had no assists, but shot a perfect 5-5 from two and had 5 rebounds (4 offensive). Led the Celtics bench with 11 points.
I think the Celtics have enough guy who can play to start doing some load management.
Grant starting, instead of White, helps on several fronts. The team rebounds slightly better and Tatum/Brown/Smart all guard smaller. GW alleviates some of the wear-n-tear on Horford. It also lets Smart bully the opposing PG on offense, and attack the lane (which is clearly his best version). Grant enhances the floor being spread with his 3pt shooting. I'd like to see it be a permanent move, it helps solve their biggest roster issue (the fragility of TL + the age of Al)
When back, PartTimeLord & Horford would split the Center minutes, with Al also playing some 4. 28-30 minutes each in the regular season seems about right. Bump it up in the playoffs. If Al can't handle the idea of not starting Q1/Q3, then Start him & sub Grant in 2-3 minutes into Q1/Q3 as they did in the playoffs a few times last year.
The buyout market/trade front would still be used to find anything better than Kornet.
Both true and both ended up with +/- of zero. The only two players not on the plus side.
Grant played 32 minutes, with the task of guarding Jokic, who was -14 in 29 minutes. Strange that GW went for 0 on plus/minus.
I don’t want to see us mess with the flow and cohesion that our newfound spacing is providing offensively. When/If TL returns I’d like to see him slide into Kornet’s 13mpg and eventually ramp it up to 18-20.
I think we are already doing this if you look closely enough. Horford has already sat out the back end of both our B2B and Brogdon’s minutes are well below his career norms. At some point Jaylen and Smart will get banged up and we won’t be rushing them back.
The last time they played, Jokic was a -21 (Grant's goofy "Batman" announcement), his 2nd worst number last season. Maybe random, maybe not
Joker in the post seemed to score at will over GW. BUT Grant did get up on Joker on the perimeter, which limits his ability to facilitate from the top. Anyways it's nice to have a player that takes pride & looks forward to playing defense against the NBA's best players (Giannis, KD, Ja, Doncic).
EPM dropped overnight, Tatum is tied for 5th, Jaylen is 26th. There is always noise with early season advanced stats, especially defensively, but still good to see.
https://dunksandthrees.com/epm
https://dunksandthrees.com/epm
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C's are last in the league at forcing turnovers, after being 11th last year. Change in defensive philosophy? Or just not getting after it enough on the perimeter?
Could be a result of the strategy to drop and concede more midrangers? Teams are feeling sort of ok about the shot they're getting, and are just taking it?
I also think they haven't been getting after it on the perimeter until the past few games; they were soft before that, so could be that too.