2022-2023 General Celtics thread

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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The Celtics are absurdly, disgustingly good right now. Usually during the slog of the regular season in the NBA, it's easy to tune out a lot of the games. Many of them are on random weeknights and you know you can catch the highlights later. After all, chances are you will see guys on tired legs, or star players resting, and it just isn't always must-see, even if a team is pretty good.

The Celtics are must-see every time they are playing. This is the best basketball team I've ever had the pleasure to root for, even better than the start of the 2007-2008 season, which was equally dominant. The humming of the offense is incredible to watch. Shooters everywhere, Brown and Tatum going up a level AGAIN to become unstoppable forces on offense, a switchable defense where everyone busts their ass, and likeable players up-and-down the roster playing with a level of comradery and swagger that has been missing from this franchise for a decade.

...

The Celtics are the balls.
If definitely reminds me of the Bird Celtics when I was a kid, but I was 11 in '86 and can't say I really remember it more than just having a vague memory of watching the finals at my dad's friend's house in Hampton Beach and having to tiptoe around beer bottles.

Must-see TV is exactly right: I couldn't go to bed last night. I had to keep watching. I was giddy. It gets at the very reason I watch sports - every night you think you might see something you've never seen before. That Tatum finish where he just jumped through the air and drifted by the defender before flicking it high off the glass with his left hand? It seemed impossible.
 

benhogan

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A healthy Rob is going to take this group up a level. As we're seeing with Luke/Blake. 1IN/4OUT is when this group is their most efficient. When all are healthy, CJM should still find ~10mpg for the UNI-Kornet, and lessen the wear-n-tear on TL/Al. That's an active 10-man rotation. With Blake/PP filling in on the edges, when B2B/injuries happen.

Brad has brilliantly executed his roster build-out in 18-mths behind a few principles. He took the bones/best parts of what Danny left behind and filled in with White, Horford, and Brogdon while finding bargain basement complimentary players (Luke/Hauser). He optimized Firsts, added/subtracted around Defense, and re-signed key players. Roles have been defined and continuity is in place. His contract work (Zarren should also get kudos here) is part of the secret sauce*. Players aren't concerned with points (which pays) and are more concerned with playing "right", fulfilling their role, and in a team context. Even Grant is on a make-good deal, where Brad owns the optionality of matching. The finishing touches of this roster build has been flawless, they'll be using it as a case study at HBS one day ;)

The IME issue has been the one whoopsie, but nobody could see that coming. They quickly found the right man, even though he wasn't even a lead asst.

CJM has done a lot right, besides his offensive spacing/screening concepts (which is by far the most impt principle he has applied). His use of rotations has been excellent. He has been clinical on when players come out/in and FIT. The 2nd unit combo of Hauser, Brogdon, Grant, White, Kornet + one of the JAYs has been weaponized. Players know when and who they will be playing with on a nightly basis.

Finally, the majority of the credit should go to the players. I find myself rooting for Jaylen to get points (and stay away from Twitter). His making the All-NBA team will get him the supermax and cement a 5yr Celtic window. Obviously would like to see Tatum get the MVP and feel like he is one of the 3-4 best players in the NBA.

*Brad learned a lot from that 2018-19 season, when they entered the season as Championship favorites. Having a roster full of free agents led to selfish play. Rozier would enter looking for his shot. MaMo never saw a shot he didn't like. Kyrie was working behind the scenes with KD. Horford had enough of that locker room to not even approach Danny, immediately taking his talents to Broad Street.

DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to delete this post when they suffer a 2-game losing streak
 

joe dokes

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The 2nd unit combo of Hauser, Brogdon, Grant, White, Kornet + one of the JAYs has been weaponized. Players know when and who they will be playing with on a nightly basis.
Query whether *I* could be a successful coach if I was allowed put 6 guys on the floor. ;)
 

benhogan

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Query whether *I* could be a successful coach if I was allowed put 6 guys on the floor. ;)
Ha, last night it felt like they were playing with 6 on defense. I suspect Joe will eventually use JAYs/Smart/TL/Al as the starting line-up and didn't want to leave any of those 5 key bench guys out, since they will be used almost every night.

Speaking of defense, I bet they end up with the best team defensive rating over the next 50 games (on Cleaning the Glass, which takes out meaningless minutes). They will use their middling defensive rating as motivation
 

lexrageorge

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Query whether *I* could be a successful coach if I was allowed put 6 guys on the floor. ;)
I recall a game (1986 I think) when the Celtics were called for a technical foul when they came out of a timeout with 4 players on the floor.
 

lovegtm

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Ha, last night it felt like they were playing with 6 on defense. I suspect Joe will eventually use JAYs/Smart/TL/Al as the starting line-up and didn't want to leave any of those 5 key bench guys out, since they will be used almost every night.

Speaking of defense, I bet they end up with the best team defensive rating over the next 50 games (on Cleaning the Glass, which takes out meaningless minutes). They will use their middling defensive rating as motivation
It's not a middling defensive rating; they're #6 lol

"Celtics have defensive issues" is a stale narrative that is no longer the case
 

joe dokes

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It's not a middling defensive rating; they're #6 lol

"Celtics have defensive issues" is a stale narrative that is no longer the case
I think that narrative is being partially fed by the fact that scoring is up overall, so while they're giving up more PPG, their ranking remains good.
 

benhogan

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It's not a middling defensive rating; they're #6 lol

"Celtics have defensive issues" is a stale narrative that is no longer the case
Really? last time I looked it was 15ish. Yikes that was quick

That loss to Miami, while annoying in the moment will pay dividends during the next few months. Those turnovers + Jimmy Show in the Garden definitely got their attention. The Warriors game will be interesting, the Ws are coming off a collapse last night and a win against Boston would be something for them to rally around.

I'm going to Laker & Clipper games next week with my 13yr old. Really want a 6-0 road trip
 

RorschachsMask

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The on and off court net ratings over the last 15 games are hilarious. Top is on court, bottom is off. Everyone knows the impact Tatum makes, but god damn Derrick White’s on/off swing. Garbage time isn’t filtered out, but CTG isn’t loading for me at the moment.



 

Kliq

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It sounds trite or "no kidding Captain Obvious" or something, but solid instincts and even some mild athleticism goes a long way when you're a legit 7'2". We generally say its significant when a 6'3" - 6'5" guard matches up with one who is 6'1". Kornet has that height advantage over almost everyone he plays against.
Stromile Swift jokes aside, Kornet gets off the floor pretty well for a guy his size. IDK what his vertical is, but he gets off the ground quickly and is pretty coordinated with catching the ball up high and converting near the basket.
 

jasail

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God, last night was a bloodbath. I did not see that coming. I decided I would stay up late and watch the game and skip the gym this AM. Turns out, I was asleep in my chair before the end of 3Q. Probably could have still managed the gym today, but it's nice to sleep until 7 some mornings.
 

Leon Trotsky

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I was the opposite - fell asleep for like 20 minutes before the game, woke up and intended to watch maybe first half, but then was wide awake for like 2 hours after the game. Just a brilliant effort.

On Sportscenter, they showed a clip of CP3 bouncing the ball off Jaylen when his back was turned and then driving or something for the Suns only highlight of the game (I missed it on first watch). Jaylen clearly took that disrespect and abused them the rest of the way, with several too-small taunts at CP3 in the 3rd quarter. It was a beautiful thing.
 

DavidTai

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On Sportscenter, they showed a clip of CP3 bouncing the ball off Jaylen when his back was turned and then driving or something for the Suns only highlight of the game (I missed it on first watch). Jaylen clearly took that disrespect and abused them the rest of the way, with several too-small taunts at CP3 in the 3rd quarter. It was a beautiful thing.
I've always wondered if these stunts Paul pulls contribute to the playoff losses, because I cannot think doing this against talented playoff foes isn't gonna set them off.
 

jmcc5400

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The Celtics are absurdly, disgustingly good right now. Usually during the slog of the regular season in the NBA, it's easy to tune out a lot of the games. Many of them are on random weeknights and you know you can catch the highlights later. After all, chances are you will see guys on tired legs, or star players resting, and it just isn't always must-see, even if a team is pretty good.

The Celtics are must-see every time they are playing. This is the best basketball team I've ever had the pleasure to root for, even better than the start of the 2007-2008 season, which was equally dominant. The humming of the offense is incredible to watch. Shooters everywhere, Brown and Tatum going up a level AGAIN to become unstoppable forces on offense, a switchable defense where everyone busts their ass, and likeable players up-and-down the roster playing with a level of comradery and swagger that has been missing from this franchise for a decade.

Brown is averaging 27 ppg. I repeat, Jaylen Brown, who couldn't dribble and had a broken jumper and averaged 6 ppg his rookie year, is now averaging 27 ppg. And he's shooting almost 50% from the field, despite having a below-average three point percentage, which he is due for some positive regression on. His handle and his shot have continued to improve, and now he is a legitimate #1 option in the NBA, and has proven it during times when Tatum has either sat, or when Tatum has just been bad. He still turns the ball over too much, but other than that he has improved again after making a big leap last year, and the year before that. He has this confidence and swagger that is infectious; he was the main man responsible for burying the Suns last night, not just with his skill and athleticism, but his will to win. This is in the middle of a long road trip, playing a top team in the West, and Brown was bullying them off the floor in the second quarter, out muscling guys at the basket and abusing Devin Booker, giving him four fouls before halftime and closing the book on Phoenix before the game was even half over.

Tatum has become a complete killing machine. He's always been a smooth, skilled player with great length. He's added everything else you would want out of him. He's filled out his body and now feels like he has a physical advantage against nearly every defender that tries to stop him. Those wide shoulders give him a Kawhi-like ability to separate from even good defenders, and he has a lot better footwork and a much more natural jumper than Kawhi has. His ability to take the ball of the dribble, to split a screen or to swing by a guy on the baseline, and then finish with either hand from any angle, is incredible. I think he might be the smoothest guy I've ever seen when it comes to finishing around the basket at his size. Durant is the gold standard for that, but even Durant I associate more with silky jumpers than these artistic finishes around the basket. Tatum is more like Kyrie, except he's 6'9" and 235lbs, and can yam it on you if you give him the space.

He's also playing great defense and stands out as the hardest working player on the court, which is something that is very impressive when you are sharing the court with Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart. He comes across as more focused, more motivated since coming up small in the Finals, and as long as he stays healthy, it doesn't seem like anyone can stop him from getting back there and hoisting the trophy. Not with the kind of supporting cast he has around him.

And what a cast it is. Think about the Celtics roster this year so far...is there anybody who has been worse than expected? I think almost every single man on this team has been BETTER than what most fans expected out of them, with maybe the exception of Smart, who is merely just consistent with his past play, which is more than acceptable for this team. And Smart has thrived more as a natural PG, averaging a career high in APG and differing a lot to the other playmakers on the team, while also bringing his world class defense, hustle and grit to the team on a nightly basis.

Brogdon, Smart and White are just a three-headed monster at the guard position. What would you want out of the guards on this team? You want guys who can handle the ball, make smart decisions, shoot well from outside and be able to play strong defense. Having just one guy that could that reliably would be what most teams could hope for. The Celtics have three, interchangeable guys for that role. They can switch everything on defense, and have the length and strength to guard bigger players and avoid being weak-links on that end. Smart could be shooting a little bit better, but White and Brogdan are just stroking it right now. White is at 42% from three and Brogdan is at fucking 50%!

Last season in the Finals it was clear the Celtics needed more steady creation from non-Tatum players. Smart hadn't fully adjusted to the PG role, Brown was still struggling with turnovers and White hadn't been on the team that long. Now they have improved that greatly, and White and Brogdan have been the main reason for that. On offense both guys can get to the basket and finish around the rim, can run the pick and roll with any player (especially Tatum, who is a very willing screener and something he doesn't get enough credit for), can shoot the ball from three and can drive-and-kick to one of our many great shooters.

I said this last night in the gamethread, but the improvements Grant Williams have been made on offense have been so great, you almost forget that he is a defense-first player, who cut his teeth in the league due to his intelligence and amoebas body-type. He's remained a knock-down shooter, showing that last year was not a fluke. And as we all know, he's shown more and more ability as a playmaker, someone that can attack close-outs and either finish at the rim, or kick the ball out to an open shooter when the defense rotates. This has also made him an excellent screener, as he can fade out to the three point line and remain a threat, or roll to the basket and make a play after the catch, similar to Draymond. Last season, teams dared Grant to beat them with his shooting. This season they are scrambling to stop them, and he is making them pay.

Hauser and Kornet are legitimate rotation pieces which are found gold. Even if both guys are ultimately not consistent playoff rotation players, they have already served their part as guys who can soak up regular season minutes and keep things afloat while our more valuable players rest. The difference between Hauser and other guys who are just good catch-and-shoot guys but never make it in the league is that he is also a passable defender, and can shoot off of movement. He can make shots while running off screens and can square up quickly, something only the best shooters can really do.

Al Horford is Al Horford. His intelligence on defense and his playmaking on offense from the 5 are critical to the teams success, and everyone is aware that they need to keep him healthy for the post-season. Blake coming in and being a dependable 5 who plays hard (if infrequently) has been a very pleasant surprise, and Blake is a REALLY talented basketball player. He is a very good passer, smart roller to the basket, has improved greatly as a shooter since he came into the league, and hustles his ass off and takes charges like a motherfucker. He can't play 82 games, but he isn't nearly as calcified as one would of presumed after seeing him in Brooklyn.

And oh yeah, we are getting back one of the best defenders in the NBA, a dominant paint presence who anihilates shots at the rim and can contest shots from anywhere on the floor.

The Celtics are the balls.
Really needed this post after the Xander news. Outstanding stuff.
 

Saints Rest

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It sounds trite or "no kidding Captain Obvious" or something, but solid instincts and even some mild athleticism goes a long way when you're a legit 7'2". We generally say its significant when a 6'3" - 6'5" guard matches up with one who is 6'1". Kornet has that height advantage over almost everyone he plays against.
I think it's the same concept why Hauser is so much more playable than Pritchard.
 

reggiecleveland

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Blake should continue to look better the more he plays. Injured veteran bigs spend the offseason resting and not grinding so it generally takes them time to play into shape. We saw this with Embiid to start the year and there are many other examples….even Horford to a degree. So I’m looking for some improvement rather than an implosion.

Kornet…..man. We’ve got that team option robbery for next year but if he remains healthy and continues to improve this man is going to get paid by someone in two summers.
Also TYritan Thompson had a slow start. Then everyone got made that as he got in shape he was still Tristan Thompson.

I think Blake playing when Al rests serves well for playoffs, when he can play every game if needed, knowing that off-season rest is coming.
 

the moops

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That JJ Redick interview of Derrick White was real good. Made me like White even more.

There was one two minute stretch last night where White was just wowing me. Dont remember the exact sequence but it started with him playing great defense against Okogie that resulted in a bullshit foul call against him. Then he had the put back dunk. A couple of steals, a few solid passes. And ended the stretch with a made corner three.

He plays great D, rarely makes mistakes, can drive to the hoop, stays under control, and now is making over 40% of his threes. If there weren’t 2 other guards and 2 incredible wings on this team I would be arguing that he play more and work his way into all star consideration.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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In the three games since the Miami back to back, when Jaylen had 10 assists and 11 turnovers (and I noted at the time, at least a couple of those were offensive fouls which were good takes in the moment), he's had 13 assists and 1 turnover in 3 games.

His defense has gone up another level too, it was just as good last night as it was against Toronto, which I thought may have have been one of the best defensive games he's ever played.
I'm behind on my Cs watching and hoping to catch up this weekend but I noticed in particular JB's defense against KD. It looked he really wanted to (try to) shut KD down.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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An NBA team in 2022 with players who, individually and collectively, are willing to set screens, pass, and accept 20 minutes of playing time is… refreshing. And last night was a beautiful beat down.
 

BigSoxFan

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That JJ Redick interview of Derrick White was real good. Made me like White even more.

There was one two minute stretch last night where White was just wowing me. Dont remember the exact sequence but it started with him playing great defense against Okogie that resulted in a bullshit foul call against him. Then he had the put back dunk. A couple of steals, a few solid passes. And ended the stretch with a made corner three.

He plays great D, rarely makes mistakes, can drive to the hoop, stays under control, and now is making over 40% of his threes. If there weren’t 2 other guards and 2 incredible wings on this team I would be arguing that he play more and work his way into all star consideration.
He's been awesome. Hitting 43% from downtown. Shooting 90% from the line. Protecting the ball. Distributing. Getting steals. Scoring when he needs to. He fits the Jay's like a glove and POBOS deserves a metric shit ton of credit for landing him for a late 1st from a good organization. Highway robbery. And, to think, some of us were worried about that pick swap in 2028.

And then he went out and did it again with Brogdon. Quite simply, POBOS deserves a ring. He couldn't have done his job any better. I hope they can finish the job this year.
 

joe dokes

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That JJ Redick interview of Derrick White was real good. Made me like White even more.

There was one two minute stretch last night where White was just wowing me. Dont remember the exact sequence but it started with him playing great defense against Okogie that resulted in a bullshit foul call against him. Then he had the put back dunk. A couple of steals, a few solid passes. And ended the stretch with a made corner three.

He plays great D, rarely makes mistakes, can drive to the hoop, stays under control, and now is making over 40% of his threes. If there weren’t 2 other guards and 2 incredible wings on this team I would be arguing that he play more and work his way into all star consideration.
White and Brogdon approach the game in almost identical ways. They always seem to be the roundest of pegs in the roundest of holes.
 

BigSoxFan

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NBA 3 point % leaders (for eligible players):

#1: Brogdon (49.4%)
#3: G Williams (46.7%)
#5: Horford (46.6%)
#10: Hauser(45.5%)
#21: White (42.7%)

That's basically every key supporting guy on the team (with exception of Smart) all in the Top 25. It's absolutely remarkable.
 

djbayko

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Brogdon, Smart and White are just a three-headed monster at the guard position. What would you want out of the guards on this team? You want guys who can handle the ball, make smart decisions, shoot well from outside and be able to play strong defense. Having just one guy that could that reliably would be what most teams could hope for. The Celtics have three, interchangeable guys for that role. They can switch everything on defense, and have the length and strength to guard bigger players and avoid being weak-links on that end. Smart could be shooting a little bit better, but White and Brogdan are just stroking it right now. White is at 42% from three and Brogdan is at fucking 50%!
Someone in a recent game thread said that Durant was lamenting about how the Celtics have 3 Marcus Smarts. Not quite, but I get what he’s saying. We have three of what any championship aspiring team should want one of. It’s an embarrassment of riches.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think it's the same concept why Hauser is so much more playable than Pritchard.
All the more impressive is Chris Paul’s defensive acumen over the course of his career.
I'm behind on my Cs watching and hoping to catch up this weekend but I noticed in particular JB's defense against KD. It looked he really wanted to (try to) shut KD down.
I don’t think Jaylen has ever had an issue as an on-the-ball defender. He’s been a pretty bad OFF-the-ball/team defender much of his career. This, along with his handle in traffic, are two glaring weaknesses in his game. It actually speaks volumes to the rest of his game that one can have two fairly big holes yet still likely make All-NBA.
 

Euclis20

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The Celtics are must-see every time they are playing. This is the best basketball team I've ever had the pleasure to root for, even better than the start of the 2007-2008 season, which was equally dominant. The humming of the offense is incredible to watch. Shooters everywhere, Brown and Tatum going up a level AGAIN to become unstoppable forces on offense, a switchable defense where everyone busts their ass, and likeable players up-and-down the roster playing with a level of comradery and swagger that has been missing from this franchise for a decade.
This whole post is great, but I think people are forgetting just how incredible the 2008 and 2009 Celtics teams were from the jump. The 2008 team started 29-3, with a point differential of +12.97. The 2009 team started off 27-2, with a point differential of +10.93. The current team is 21-5 with a point differential of +8.8. The current team plays at a faster pace, meaning about 10% more possessions per game - the incredible point differential of the start of those 2 seasons was all the more impressive when compared with today.

Until Garnett got hurt, that Celtics group was historically dominant, with the only blip being that it took 7 games to finish off both the Hawks and the Cavs in the playoffs.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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NBA 3 point % leaders (for eligible players):

#1: Brogdon (49.4%)
#3: G Williams (46.7%)
#5: Horford (46.6%)
#10: Hauser(45.5%)
#21: White (42.7%)

That's basically every key supporting guy on the team (with exception of Smart) all in the Top 25. It's absolutely remarkable.
. Absent injuries, if they sustain that shooting, into and through the playoffs? I don’t know how you beat that.
 

SteveF

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Brown:
Year​
|MPG|​
|Front Court Touches/Game|​
|Average Touch Time|​
Front Court Touch Time/Game​
2021-2022​
33.6​
36.5​
3.30​
120.5​
2022-2023​
35.6​
34.7​
3.39​
117.6​



Tatum:
Year​
|MPG|​
|Front Court Touches/Game|​
|Average Touch Time|​
Front Court Touch Time/Game​
2021-2022​
35.9​
42.4​
3.78​
160.3​
2022-2023​
36.6​
37.7​
3.63​
136.9​
 

tbb345

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A healthy Rob is going to take this group up a level. As we're seeing with Luke/Blake. 1IN/4OUT is when this group is their most efficient. When all are healthy, CJM should still find ~10mpg for the UNI-Kornet, and lessen the wear-n-tear on TL/Al. That's an active 10-man rotation. With Blake/PP filling in on the edges, when B2B/injuries happen.

Brad has brilliantly executed his roster build-out in 18-mths behind a few principles. He took the bones/best parts of what Danny left behind and filled in with White, Horford, and Brogdon while finding bargain basement complimentary players (Luke/Hauser). He optimized Firsts, added/subtracted around Defense, and re-signed key players. Roles have been defined and continuity is in place. His contract work (Zarren should also get kudos here) is part of the secret sauce*. Players aren't concerned with points (which pays) and are more concerned with playing "right", fulfilling their role, and in a team context. Even Grant is on a make-good deal, where Brad owns the optionality of matching. The finishing touches of this roster build has been flawless, they'll be using it as a case study at HBS one day ;)

The IME issue has been the one whoopsie, but nobody could see that coming. They quickly found the right man, even though he wasn't even a lead asst.

CJM has done a lot right, besides his offensive spacing/screening concepts (which is by far the most impt principle he has applied). His use of rotations has been excellent. He has been clinical on when players come out/in and FIT. The 2nd unit combo of Hauser, Brogdon, Grant, White, Kornet + one of the JAYs has been weaponized. Players know when and who they will be playing with on a nightly basis.

Finally, the majority of the credit should go to the players. I find myself rooting for Jaylen to get points (and stay away from Twitter). His making the All-NBA team will get him the supermax and cement a 5yr Celtic window. Obviously would like to see Tatum get the MVP and feel like he is one of the 3-4 best players in the NBA.

*Brad learned a lot from that 2018-19 season, when they entered the season as Championship favorites. Having a roster full of free agents led to selfish play. Rozier would enter looking for his shot. MaMo never saw a shot he didn't like. Kyrie was working behind the scenes with KD. Horford had enough of that locker room to not even approach Danny, immediately taking his talents to Broad Street.

DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to delete this post when they suffer a 2-game losing streak
The 2018-2019 team was the worst. The only one of those 3 whose actions I understood was Rozier. He had outgrown the role he was given and he was looking for his first big contract.
In totality, I don’t think I’ve disliked a Celtics player more than MaMo. He seemed to legitimately think he was the leader and the #1 offensive option on the team…which obviously couldn’t have been further from the truth.
 

Ferm Sheller

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SteveF

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The Celtics are running lots of ghost screens -- as many teams are these days in the NBA -- so I googled up a substack post on them and read one that a few of you might find interesting here.
 

benhogan

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The 2018-2019 team was the worst. The only one of those 3 whose actions I understood was Rozier. He had outgrown the role he was given and he was looking for his first big contract.
In totality, I don’t think I’ve disliked a Celtics player more than MaMo. He seemed to legitimately think he was the leader and the #1 offensive option on the team…which obviously couldn’t have been further from the truth.
That team was crazy dysfunctional, it was Brad's worst season as HC. Starting MaMo drove me nuts, he viewed himself as a 1A scorer & played crappy D.
 

bosockboy

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This whole post is great, but I think people are forgetting just how incredible the 2008 and 2009 Celtics teams were from the jump. The 2008 team started 29-3, with a point differential of +12.97. The 2009 team started off 27-2, with a point differential of +10.93. The current team is 21-5 with a point differential of +8.8. The current team plays at a faster pace, meaning about 10% more possessions per game - the incredible point differential of the start of those 2 seasons was all the more impressive when compared with today.

Until Garnett got hurt, that Celtics group was historically dominant, with the only blip being that it took 7 games to finish off both the Hawks and the Cavs in the playoffs.
Yeah 2009 squad was gonna push the 72-10 Bulls. That night in Utah ended a potential 3-4 ring dynasty.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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The 2018-2019 team was the worst. The only one of those 3 whose actions I understood was Rozier. He had outgrown the role he was given and he was looking for his first big contract.
In totality, I don’t think I’ve disliked a Celtics player more than MaMo. He seemed to legitimately think he was the leader and the #1 offensive option on the team…which obviously couldn’t have been further from the truth.
MaMo was easy to figure out as well being in a contract year and looking to put up numbers. It worked for him as he signed a 4/$64m deal with the Clippers.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Any of you old-timers getting a 1986 Bill Walton sorta vibe from Blake Griffin's performance for the Celts thus far? Walton and Bird absolutely loved playing together, as this video (which is kinda choppy) will attest:
Maybe in terms of productivity, but Walton was a unique, infectious, larger than life kinda guy.
Not remotely in terms of productivity!

I think it has been so long that people forget how good Bill Walton was that year.
  • He played in 80 of 82 playoff games and 16 of 18 playoff games, for a total of 96 games - the highest games played total of his career. Next highest: 65 reg season + 19 playoff games in 1976-77, the year he won it all with Portland.
  • Including playoffs, he played the third-highest total minutes of his career at 1837 (1546 reg season plus 291)
  • In terms of minutes played, he was top 7 on the team for the regular season and top 6 in the playoffs. He was essentially the 6th man, though Sichting got 50 minutes more and averaged 0.2 minutes more per game.
  • Third on the team in box plus/minus, trailing only Bird and McHale, highest defensive box plus/minus on the team.
While I appreciate Blake, he is the Celtics 11th man, 12th man if you count Rob. He has given a couple of good games recently, and he seems to be an extrmely positive presence around the team who might have a little bit more in the tank than we thought. But he's not in 1986 Bill Walton's league.
 

Devizier

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Blake is more like this year’s PJ Brown: a savvy vet at the end of his career playing sparingly but who fills a need when called upon. I don’t think this years squad will need as much from Griffin in the playoffs though.
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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Not remotely in terms of productivity!

I think it has been so long that people forget how good Bill Walton was that year.
  • He played in 80 of 82 playoff games and 16 of 18 playoff games, for a total of 96 games - the highest games played total of his career. Next highest: 65 reg season + 19 playoff games in 1976-77, the year he won it all with Portland.
  • Including playoffs, he played the third-highest total minutes of his career at 1837 (1546 reg season plus 291)
  • In terms of minutes played, he was top 7 on the team for the regular season and top 6 in the playoffs. He was essentially the 6th man, though Sichting got 50 minutes more and averaged 0.2 minutes more per game.
  • Third on the team in box plus/minus, trailing only Bird and McHale, highest defensive box plus/minus on the team.
While I appreciate Blake, he is the Celtics 11th man, 12th man if you count Rob. He has given a couple of good games recently, and he seems to be an extrmely positive presence around the team who might have a little bit more in the tank than we thought. But he's not in 1986 Bill Walton's league.
This is right. Walton was a critical player every single day. They only played 8. 5+ Walton, Wedman and Sichting.

Blake Griffin 22-23 is much closer to ML Carr in 83-84 or 80-81 than Bill Walton in 85-86.

Given the role he's plying this year, Brogdon might be a better comp for Walton--though his ceiling was never as high and he wasn't quite as injured.
 
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benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
16,384
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MaMo was easy to figure out as well being in a contract year and looking to put up numbers. It worked for him as he signed a 4/$64m deal with the Clippers.
Agreed. MaMo's start-me, score-first, little D mentality worked great for his wallet. Along the way didn't MaMo screw the Spurs by reneging on a verbal agreement (after they dealt Bertans for peanuts)?

Boston's dysfunctional season also worked out well for:
Terry's wallet
Al's wallet
Kyrie teaming up with KD
the Bucks, who easily disposed of the C's & Giannis, who was guarded by Kyrie
Kemba-YA getting a max deal after the Hornets said no thank you & Danny panic signed

So even though they were title favorites & loaded with talent, having all those free agents didn't work out very well for Boston.

Flip to the last 18 months: massive credit to PBS for acquiring the "right" players on long deals & extending his own vets.

It's something you have been talking about for years with the "problem" of having (young) players looking to "get theirs" so they can get a sizeable contract. Human nature
 

Fishy1

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Nov 10, 2006
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Agreed. MaMo's start-me, score-first, little D mentality worked great for his wallet. Along the way didn't MaMo screw the Spurs by reneging on a verbal agreement (after they dealt Bertans for peanuts)?

Boston's dysfunctional season also worked out well for:
Terry's wallet
Al's wallet
Kyrie teaming up with KD
the Bucks, who easily disposed of the C's & Giannis, who was guarded by Kyrie
Kemba-YA getting a max deal after the Hornets said no thank you & Danny panic signed

So even though they were title favorites & loaded with talent, having all those free agents didn't work out very well for Boston.

Flip to the last 18 months: massive credit to PBS for acquiring the "right" players on long deals & extending his own vets.

It's something you have been talking about for years with the "problem" of having (young) players looking to "get theirs" so they can get a sizeable contract. Human nature
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I think in the long-run it also worked out pretty well for the Celtics.

Brad, and even Tatum and Brown and Smart, I think learned just how important -- on a basketball level -- it is to have buy-in from every player who's getting major minutes. That's why we saw Schroder shipped out last trade deadline, it's why Kornet is getting minutes and why they went out and grabbed Brogdon, White, and Blake. It helps, obviously, that those guys have already gotten paid. But a guy like Grant is great because he knows he's going to get paid because he's a jack-of-all-trades type who will sacrifice himself for the team, not because he "gets buckets" or whatever. The same goes for Kornet and even Pritchard.

I think Brad saw first-hand how vital it is to have everybody on the same page and finally asked himself "why should I just have one guy who sacrifices everything for the team in Marcus Smart?" and went out and got himself like four of them.
 

the moops

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Along the way didn't MaMo screw the Spurs by reneging on a verbal agreement (after they dealt Bertans for peanuts)?
This was truly a blessing for the Spurs. If Morris didn't express interest in signing, there is a very real chance that the Spurs give Bertans a ludicrous contract. So with Morris screwing them over, they managed to not have headcase Morris or way overpaid Bertans on their team.
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
16,384
Santa Monica
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I think in the long-run it also worked out pretty well for the Celtics.

Brad, and even Tatum and Brown and Smart, I think learned just how important -- on a basketball level -- it is to have buy-in from every player who's getting major minutes. That's why we saw Schroder shipped out last trade deadline, it's why Kornet is getting minutes and why they went out and grabbed Brogdon, White, and Blake. It helps, obviously, that those guys have already gotten paid. But a guy like Grant is great because he knows he's going to get paid because he's a jack-of-all-trades type who will sacrifice himself for the team, not because he "gets buckets" or whatever. The same goes for Kornet and even Pritchard.

I think Brad saw first-hand how vital it is to have everybody on the same page and finally asked himself "why should I just have one guy who sacrifices everything for the team in Marcus Smart?" and went out and got himself like four of them.
Agreed. Brad has consistently discussed a "growth mindset" over the years. Nobody was harder on Brad than himself after that season. His post-game presser after Game 5 exit was telling. He learned and moved on. His Presidential style has been a collection of things he "experienced" over his time coaching the C's

This was truly a blessing for the Spurs. If Morris didn't express interest in signing, there is a very real chance that the Spurs give Bertans a ludicrous contract. So with Morris screwing them over, they managed to not have headcase Morris or way overpaid Bertans on their team.
That trade felt like 50 cents on the dollar at the time, but I suspect Spurs weren't long for Bertans defense since they were so quick to toss him aside. Doubt Pop saw him as a big contract guy. The Wizards OTOH.

Interesting how the Bertans and Duncan Robinson deals soured so quickly
 

HomeRunBaker

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Interesting how the Bertans and Duncan Robinson deals soured so quickly
Moral of the story…..

There is no reason to overspend on one-dimensional 3-pt shooters in todays age when most multi-dimensional players can shoot 3’s at a reasonable rate.
 

NomarsFool

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But a guy like Grant is great because he knows he's going to get paid because he's a jack-of-all-trades type who will sacrifice himself for the team, not because he "gets buckets" or whatever.
At the moment, everything is going great with Grant. But, I think this was a big risk, actually. Not saying they should have just given him what he wanted - or that going to RFA wasn't the right call. But, I disagree with you that if the season was chiming along and he was averaging 5 ppg, I think his agent would be in his ear (and CJM's) advocating for Grant to get more shots to get paid. At the end of the day, the relationship betwee POINTZ and salary in the NBA is very strong.
 

HomeRunBaker

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At the moment, everything is going great with Grant. But, I think this was a big risk, actually. Not saying they should have just given him what he wanted - or that going to RFA wasn't the right call. But, I disagree with you that if the season was chiming along and he was averaging 5 ppg, I think his agent would be in his ear (and CJM's) advocating for Grant to get more shots to get paid. At the end of the day, the relationship betwee POINTZ and salary in the NBA is very strong.
Completely agree with this. What if Grant wasn’t hitting 47% of his 3’s while Gallo was healthy and hitting 47% of his? Everything is working great so far as you say but there were plenty of variables in play that could/can make his decision much worse.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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Completely agree with this. What if Grant wasn’t hitting 47% of his 3’s while Gallo was healthy and hitting 47% of his? Everything is working great so far as you say but there were plenty of variables in play that could/can make his decision much worse.
The good news is that he's earned some 2023 money now, and as the season goes on the opportunity to lose that cash gets smaller, even if his usage changes. Losing playing time in April after accumulating enough POINTZ is less painful than losing in December when the POINTZ are still building.

If it came to it, Stevens could always in March whisper a number in the ear of Grant's agent.